FlyHossD
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UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:48 pm

Has anyone seen the results of the UA pilot strike vote? IIRC, the voting closed this morning, so I'm guessing the results may be out already.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
av8r915
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:06 pm

STRIKE AUTHORIZATION BALLOT RESULTS
Strike Authorization Voting by the pilots of United Continental Holdings, Inc. ended this morning, at 1000 EDT. To our pilots who took the time to vote in this important ballot, we thank you. You have demonstrated the unity of our joint pilot group and given your leadership a tool that will assist us in attaining the industry-leading contract we deserve. Our resolve is clear.
Like the final ratification of the contract by the pilot group, ALPA policy requires the decision to authorize the MECs to call for a strike to be confirmed by a totaled vote of both pilot groups. You have spoken loudly, clearly and with a unified voice. With a 94 percent participation rate, the combined pilot group voted 99 percent in favor of authorizing use of the ultimate leverage - a legal strike - when needed and allowed by law. Management should take note: pushing this pilot group to a strike would be ill-advised. Our pilots are united in their willingness to withhold their services.
No one wants a strike. Our goal has always been - and remains – the achievement of a JCBA without the need to withhold our services. However, our pilots have worked far too long under concessionary agreements to not avail ourselves of every tool necessary to reach a deal and improve the lives of our pilots and their families. The power that strike authorization provides to the union’s efforts in reaching a JCBA cannot be ignored.
Capt. Jay Pierce Capt. Jay Heppner
CAL MEC Chairman UAL MEC Chairman
 
777ord
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:10 pm

Great.......

So it's gonna happen. Why not the pilots work together to get a contract rather than waste their time picketing. Be proactive, not reactive. YOU want that contract now?? work for it. I, being a part of UAL, would rather see you be positive than throw such an airline into the ground....

There are countless pilots who will gladly do your job, and, for far less than you currently get.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:11 pm

av8r915, thanks for the quick reply. That's a higher approval rate than I would have guessed, so I guess the frustration is great for not only customers, but also employees.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:17 pm

Quoting 777ord (Reply 2):
Great.......

So it's gonna happen. Why not the pilots work together to get a contract rather than waste their time picketing. Be proactive, not reactive. YOU want that contract now?? work for it. I, being a part of UAL, would rather see you be positive than throw such an airline into the ground....

There are countless pilots who will gladly do your job, and, for far less than you currently get.

The CO pilots started negotiating nearly 5 years ago and the UA pilots started negotiations over 3 1/2 years ago.

Is that what you mean by "work for it."? If not, please explain.

[Edited 2012-07-17 11:18:00]
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Caspian27
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting 777ord (Reply 2):
There are countless pilots who will gladly do your job, and, for far less than you currently get.

I think you're wrong. I for one would absolutely love to work at a major but wages have gone down enough, and I think most pilots would agree with me. If the company won't play ball...and when they're sending in airplanes to CO hubs in violation of a contractual scope agreement, I'd say UAL started out the whole process completely wrong IMHO.

But I'm just an outsider...
Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
 
ual777
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:46 pm

Quoting 777ord (Reply 2):

I won't. The pilots are pissed off at the bad management, and they are tired of being jerked around. Te blame for this debacle lies squarely on Smisek'a shoulders. The emperor has no clothes, and he talking to himself with all the working together mantra. UA needs new leadership.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
N766UA
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:50 pm

lol I like how they say "services" like they're providing something out of the goodness of their hearts and aren't employees of a company that is paying them to do a job.

That said, management in the airline business does blow. If you don't mind me flying Delta from now on, I don't mind you sticking it to them!
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hnl-jack
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:51 pm

A strike in today's enviornment will serve no one. If allowed by Obama, which I seriously doubt, it will only help the competitors. AA could be a major beneficary domestically when they need it most and foreign carriers will reap the benefits internationally.

I blame UA management as well as the pilots of putting their own issues before the public, the stockholders and most of all their fellow employees interests. It is a sad day when in the last three and a half years UA and for the last five years CO hasn't been able to come to an agreement. It's shame on both sides.

Such an action could very likely destroy UA,and force another bankruptcy. All employees, including the pilots will take a huge hit. This is not the time for such an action as public confidence in UA appears to be shrinking already and a strike will drive it even lower.

If this isn't resolved quickly the board of directors of United Continental Holdings need to take a good hard look at Smisek and his abilites to run an airline of this size. Many seem to be questioning that already. And the pilots, need to tell their leadership that despite the vote, they expect an agreement shortly or they will be looking to new leadership. To have this unresolved for so many years, it's not the fault of one side or the other, both sides are to blame. The choice is simple enough, either come to an agreement or agree to destroy the airline.
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:09 pm

Smisek needs to pay up. Delta's Richard Anderson paid for labor's cooperation in advance and the results are apparent and very positive. For some reason, Jeff Smisek thinks he can create a world class airline without rewarding the employees for their hard work and in recognition of their sacrifices in bankruptcy. We can all see those results.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 8):
If this isn't resolved quickly the board of directors of United Continental Holdings need to take a good hard look at Smisek and his abilites to run an airline of this size.


If they haven't by this time with all the outcry from the employees and customers they never will.

I have never been in favor of any strike, but in this case after the sCO group in negotiation 5+ years and with numerous trips already purchased on UA for the next few months I completely support the idea. Slimezek and the entire management team are a disgrace. I've not heard one passenger have anything positive to say about him or upper management when the safety video begins (one blessing of flying on a non-IFE aircraft), nor any employee that I engage in conversation with during flights.

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 8):
The choice is simple enough, either come to an agreement or agree to destroy the airline.


  
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
united319
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:30 pm

They've already started what appears to be a "slow down". ORD has been in pretty bad IROP shape the past couple of weeks. The other night FRA, LHR, and AMS all cancelled. Pilots have been refusing aircraft, doing gate returns, etc. Looks like Summer of 2000 all over again.
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FlyHossD
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:47 pm

Quoting united319 (Reply 11):
They've already started what appears to be a "slow down". ORD has been in pretty bad IROP shape the past couple of weeks. The other night FRA, LHR, and AMS all cancelled. Pilots have been refusing aircraft, doing gate returns, etc. Looks like Summer of 2000 all over again.

IIRC, UA ALPA is already under an injunction to not do anything illegal, like a "slow down." If there is evidence of that, why hasn't UA run to the court?

Did you see the letter the UA COO posted? In essence, he admitted that the operational problems were company caused (UA will be adding longer flight times, more connecting time, more boarding time, more parts and maintenance time).
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting 777ord (Reply 2):

No, the only pilots willing to do the work for less are scabs and fortunately they are few and far between. Certainly not prevalent enough to keep UA going anywhere near full capacity. Nobody at UA wants a strike but the pilot group has clearly been more than patient. It isn't as if they're asking for the moon, just a fair deal and less outsourcing.

The UA/CO pilot groups have been working for years to get new contracts, and deserve better than they have gotten from their so called leaders. It's time for Smisek to pay up, then leave, it is clear he is failing.
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mm320cap
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting 777ord (Reply 2):

Great.......

So it's gonna happen. Why not the pilots work together to get a contract rather than waste their time picketing. Be proactive, not reactive. YOU want that contract now?? work for it. I, being a part of UAL, would rather see you be positive than throw such an airline into the ground....

There are countless pilots who will gladly do your job, and, for far less than you currently get.

You clearly have no idea how contract negotiations, or the RLA works.

Let me be very clear, no one WANTS to strike. But here are the facts: Smisek promised a quick joint contract when the merger was announced in exchange for pilot cooperation. Negotiations were FLYING, but as soon as the merger was approved, management backtracked on all the progress and promises they had made. Smisek quickly negotiated a contract worth TRIPLE his previous compensation. I'll let our operational performance speak for whether he was worth the money or not. We have lived under bankruptcy concessions used to save the airline for almost a DECADE. We are extremely close to the lowest paid pilot group in the entire industry. Only USAirways East and Sun Country are lower. Smisek and crew negotiated for 15 MONTHS on work rules. The work rules we asked for were sUAL's work rules. They were previously agreed to by the company, who then redacted (see above). Mind you, these work rules are still atrocious BANKRUPTCY work rules. Delta, our main competitor, has just closed their second contract (early) since the last time we have had a contract. AMR is voting on a TA that would give their pilots (already paid substantially higher than us) a pay RAISE in Ch 11.

As to your last point.... There are lots of people who would be happy to do Smisek's job for substantially less than he is paid as well. What's your point? Sounds like a pretty good reason to have a UNION, huh??
 
mm320cap
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 12):

They've already started what appears to be a "slow down". ORD has been in pretty bad IROP shape the past couple of weeks. The other night FRA, LHR, and AMS all cancelled. Pilots have been refusing aircraft, doing gate returns, etc. Looks like Summer of 2000 all over again.

You can place the blame SQUARELY on a poorly managed airline's feet. Even they have admitted they fouled up the summer and have recently increased spare aircraft. I've NEVER seen the operation more poorly run than it is right now. No personnel, no spare parts, no organization, no spare aircraft, no spare pilots, etc. etc. They have chosen to run the operation absolutely as lean as possible. That only works until you have a hiccup with a broken plane, some weather, etc. Then the dominos start to fall. I've been late about 85% of my flights in the past month, and NOT ONE of them had anything to do with me. I waited 55 minutes for a required maintenance release document in IAH the other day. Why? I finally got the ramp supervisor to tell me. There was only 1 person in IAH that could sign off the A320 MRD's. Do you have any idea how many 320's fly in and out of IAH now??? Genius planning Jeff. Genius.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:44 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 7):
If you don't mind me flying Delta from now on

Not at all, Welcome aboard!
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 8):
I blame UA management as well as the pilots of putting their own issues before the public, the stockholders and most of all their fellow employees interests. It is a sad day when in the last three and a half years UA and for the last five years CO hasn't been able to come to an agreement. It's shame on both sides.

Such an action could very likely destroy UA,and force another bankruptcy. All employees, including the pilots will take a huge hit. This is not the time for such an action as public confidence in UA appears to be shrinking already and a strike will drive it even lower.

There is plenty of blame to go around.

I hope this is used to get to a resolution that doesn't screw customers that also allows UA to be profitable.

If there needs to be a redo of management contracts, so be it.

Lightsaber
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style
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 13):
It isn't as if they're asking for the moon, just a fair deal and less outsourcing.

Can you or someone else shed some light on what the actual facts of the deal in question are?

I appreciate the passion in here but most are only speaking on emotion and not on the facts that both sides are dealing with. Its hard to really come to a conclusion on what the root of the cause is, I know many will say Smisek and while that may or may not be true I still think it would be more beneficial to see what the actual differences from both sides are.

Does anyone know if it is true that UA offered their pilots a contract very similar to the recently ratified DL agreement + slighly more pay? If so, then why such a different take on what DL pilots see as a good deal while UA pilots see as a bad one?
 
futureualpilot
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:05 pm

I think mm320cap did a good job of illustrating some of the bigger sticking points between the pilots and management. Mostly that terms were seemingly agreed upon and then redacted by management.

The last few times of spoken with UA pilots I haven't heard about a DL plus some type of offer, perhaps a UA pilot in the know could add more insight than I can.
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IAHFLYR
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting Reply 18):
I appreciate the passion in here but most are only speaking on emotion and not on the facts that both sides are dealing with.



I'm going to have to disagree with that statement, as I believe the pilot group is very well aware of the issues. I'll bet the employees will chime in with exactly what the issues are in time. One nice fat issue is who will do the flying of aircraft with more than 50 seats.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 19):
I think mm320cap did a good job of illustrating some of the bigger sticking points between the pilots and management.

Yes, a great explanation.

[quote=style,reply=18]Does anyone know if it is true that UA offered their pilots a contract very similar to the recently ratified



I have heard that from a sCO pilot.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:19 pm

Can anybody summarize what are the terms of the contract being proposed to the pilots by the company?
 
N766UA
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 14):
Smisek quickly negotiated a contract worth TRIPLE his previous compensation.

Which is exactly why he wanted the merger at all in the first place. It's not about better customer service, better employee morale, better pay, or better opportunities. It's about padding his resume and inflating his own value. Smisek is of the same vein as Lorenzo and Icahn.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 16):
Not at all, Welcome aboard!

DAL seems to be doing everything right lately, and their employees are content. UA employees, even when not on strike, are miserable. I don't fault them at all, in fact I really do sympathize with them, but why would anyone want to fly an airline with cut-rate service and the threat of a major work stoppage looming? Nothing about UAL is appealing these days. Thanks, Jeff, thanks for creating such a wonderful company!
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style
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 20):
I'm going to have to disagree with that statement, as I believe the pilot group is very well aware of the issues.

I think you're missing my point. I fully believe the pilot group is aware of the issues at hand. As this is a forum to discuss this kind of stuff, my point is I would rather look at the facts and what is really dividing both groups other than just hear about Smisek being a bad leader. Regardless of if thats the case or not, there have been offers made and I think those points should be discussed here as well.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:36 pm

Quoting Reply 23):
Smisek being a bad leader.

Fact

Quoting N766UA (Reply 22):
Nothing about UAL is appealing these days

Fact

Quoting N766UA (Reply 22):
Thanks, Jeff, thanks for creating such a wonderful company!

Fact
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
N766UA
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:18 pm

Quoting Reply 23):
I would rather look at the facts and what is really dividing both groups other than just hear about Smisek being a bad leader. Regardless of if thats the case or not, there have been offers made and I think those points should be discussed here as well.

I can agree with that, but it won't happen. Unions don't operate that way. You're going to hear a lot of mud-slinging, and while most of it is warranted in this case, it doesn't really solve anything. You have to consider that unions aren't problem solvers these days, though. They tend to operate more on the "squeaky wheel" theory. Funny thing is, though, that Smisek seems to be so hopped up on his own awesomeness that a little [a lot of] trash talk really couldn't hurt things.
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FlyHossD
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:21 pm

Quoting Reply 18):
Does anyone know if it is true that UA offered their pilots a contract very similar to the recently ratified DL agreement + slighly more pay? If so, then why such a different take on what DL pilots see as a good deal while UA pilots see as a bad one?
Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 20):
I have heard that from a sCO pilot.

That's very inaccurate. UA publicly offered a "DL+$1" but it was a match to DL's PREVIOUS contract in name only, it contained concessions in every other area. And once DL reached the new TA, UA retracted that offer, even going so far as to erase it from their website. DL has completed TWO pilot contracts during the time that UA and CO pilots have been negotiating one. IIRC, UA never made the "DL+$1" offer to the ALPA negotiators - in other words, it was all PR spin.

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 15):
Quoting flyhossd (Reply 12):

They've already started what appears to be a "slow down". ORD has been in pretty bad IROP shape the past couple of weeks. The other night FRA, LHR, and AMS all cancelled. Pilots have been refusing aircraft, doing gate returns, etc. Looks like Summer of 2000 all over again.

I did NOT make this statement. Please see replies 11 and 12.

mm320cap, I am in agreement with your post.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:01 pm

Quoting 777ord (Reply 2):
So it's gonna happen. Why not the pilots work together to get a contract rather than waste their time picketing. Be proactive, not reactive. YOU want that contract now?? work for it. I, being a part of UAL, would rather see you be positive than throw such an airline into the ground....

You can't be serious...
What gets measured gets done.
 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:15 am

Honestly, I think a declared strike before November Sixth is a lose-lose for Obama. If he breaks the strike he's going to lose the support of the Unions and he's going to need every vote he can get in this election. If he doesn't break the strike and UA ends up going chapter 7 the republicans are going to have a field day painting Obama as being not only anti-"job creator" but also anti-middle class. The republicans will suggest that alot of the middle class depends on air travel to make their living and that Obama was so blindly pro-union, maybe even pro-working class, that he was willing to threaten the livelihoods of millions of people just to force management into caving into the union's "unreasonable demands." If the strike is called after November Sixth and Obama gets re-elected, that's another story.

I can also understand that management is in a difficult position vis-a-vis Scope. When they retired their 160 mid-gen 737s PMUA elected to replace that capacity not with equivalent aircraft like 737-600 and 700s but with 2 class regional flying. That 2 class regional flying is now an integral part of their network. So now come the pilots demanding that the 2 class regional flying UA depends on to fill its schedule be gotten rid of and replaced with either 50 seaters or mainline flying. Well, management would argue back that mainline flying is not-sustainable in many smaller markets and also some major markets. Management would also probably argue back that putting 50 seat regional jets that have no first class into major business markets is simply a no-go. If neither side is willing to budge you have a log jam.

Now, if I put on my reasonable thinker hat, if I were Smisek, I'd offer the unions a deal. If they'll give up scope and allow the 2 class regional jets to stay on property then the next time the regional flying contracts come up for renewal, management will cut that flying in half and replace it with an equal number of E190/E195s flown by mainline pilots. It would be a bitter pill for both sides to swallow: bitter for the unions in that they have to wait for the contracts to expire, plus new aircraft to be ordered and delivered. Bitter for management in that they'll have to accept much higher operating costs associated with having junior pilots flying large regional aircraft at mainline wages.

I do realize that Scope is only one issue, but, if both sides can come to an agreement on one major issue, then each side will realize that the other side is willing to negotiate in good faith and eventually a contract will get done. The important thing, in the end, is a contract that both respects the job the pilots do but also respects that in order for the enterprise to stay viable, it has to be profitable. In other words, both sides are going to have to give up something.

We've seen how well take it or leave it contract negotiations work, you end up with veritable wars between management and the employees. It's time for both sides to come to the table willing to make concessions.
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:30 am

At the end of the day, if they want to strike they will and there's nothing the POTUS can do. I say that meaning yes, he can impose an executive order, ordering the stay but even that has it's limitations. It's not indefinite and once that time passes it's up to the unions and the company. Of course I wholeheartedly believe that by then some sort of an agreement will be made. Anything else will spell disaster for UA and the management team knows that.
What gets measured gets done.
 
B737900ER
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:31 am

You can blame management all you want, but the fact of the matter is the same management group has been able to come to agreements with three flight attendant groups and three mechanic groups within the last year. The pilots seems to be the only work group with issues.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:46 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 30):

What does that prove? That is in no way indicative of either side's willingness to come to an agreement. However..FACT: the pilots have much more to loose by dragging on negotiations not management. They continue to be paid and work under very old terms all the while the company reaps the benefits of the cheaper contract. So please tell me what motive the pilots would have to NOT come to an agreement? 5+ years later?
What gets measured gets done.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:05 am

This seems like a pretty bad situation. This is one of the few cases in recent memory where I think the labor group has a really significant issue, but it sure seems like the timing is terrible. Everyone I know who was a UA frequent flier (well over 1k each per year) has switched to other airlines due to poor service. Delta, whether or not it's smoke and mirrors (I don't know) seems to have a better product and who knows what may come of AA after they exit bankruptcy protection. I hope there is some reasonable way out of this that doesn't harm the airline, the employees or the customers.
 
B737900ER
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:11 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 31):

It shows that it can be done. It takes more than one party to drag this stuff out. The other work groups realized that things have changed (especially the mechanics) and the old way of contract negotiation doesnt work anymore. Strike votes, job actions, slow downs, accomplish nothing.

Everyone else took a realistic look at the industry and built a contract around it. There is no reason why the pilot group can't do the same. Scope won't be rolled back, it's industry standard now. Get what you can and move on
 
hmflyer
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 33):
It shows that it can be done. It takes more than one party to drag this stuff out. The other work groups realized that things have changed (especially the mechanics) and the old way of contract negotiation doesnt work anymore. Strike votes, job actions, slow downs, accomplish nothing.

Everyone else took a realistic look at the industry and built a contract around it. There is no reason why the pilot group can't do the same. Scope won't be rolled back, it's industry standard now. Get what you can and move on

Fact of the matter is that UCH is negotiating a joint contract with the pilots. This is something that HAS NOT yet been accomplished with any other employee group. Not one employee group has been intergrated, not one!

You are correct, it is time that UCH took a realistic look at the industry and offer their employees reasonable contracts.

So while it can be done, it has not happened yet.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:45 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 33):
It shows that it can be done. It takes more than one party to drag this stuff out. The other work groups realized that things have changed (especially the mechanics) and the old way of contract negotiation doesnt work anymore. Strike votes, job actions, slow downs, accomplish nothing.

Everyone else took a realistic look at the industry and built a contract around it. There is no reason why the pilot group can't do the same. Scope won't be rolled back, it's industry standard now. Get what you can and move on

This alone tells me you really don't understand what's going on. The line pilots that regularly post may be able to educate you. I did have first hand knowledge (the CO side) because my father was a 737 captain based out of IAH. Like many, he said he had enough and quietly retired before all of this mess started.
What gets measured gets done.
 
rj777
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:17 am

Just out of curiosity, who approved the livery for the combined company? Was it Smisek? If so, maybe it'll go out the door with him. Maybe part of this whole thing has to do with the fact that for the combined airline, which was supposed to represent an EQUAL PARTNERSHIP, the livery was basically a CONTINENTAL livery with the word UNITED slapped on the side. Don't you think that for something like this they would've come up with something a little more original. I mean, even when US Airways and America West merged, there was a (slightly) refreshed livery. They didn't just keep the America West Body and US Airways tail and slap the word US Airways on the side.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:55 am

Don't flame me for this...
I have talked to a retired sCO pilot and a current sCO pilot. They have both told me they think the strike will not happen. Just because you for the OPTION to strike, doesn't mean you actually exercise the option. This is just putting management under pressure to get their sh!t together and to come to the negotiating table. This is simply just leverage.
Beauty is watching a 787 bank to make a short final. Bliss is watching that 787 with a good beer. Nirvana is all of that with a beautiful woman on your side.
 
boeing773er
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:29 am

This has not been a good week for UA at all, lots of bad publicity. Besides the 737 order but besides that this week::

Pilots threaten to strike
Website was down for a few hours
Passangers stuck in Shanghai for 3 days
757 drops "20,000" feet
United has the worst lost bag record of any legacy [Didn't see this one yet, but i did a google search and it came up]

Tisk, tisk, tisk UA.
Work Hard, Fly Right.
 
goboeing
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:09 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 37):
Don't flame me for this...
I have talked to a retired sCO pilot and a current sCO pilot. They have both told me they think the strike will not happen. Just because you for the OPTION to strike, doesn't mean you actually exercise the option. This is just putting management under pressure to get their sh!t together and to come to the negotiating table. This is simply just leverage.

That's always what a strike is.

Going on strike is never the plan for any group of workers. It is the last resort when management still refuses to be reasonable.

99% in favor of a strike is not just leverage though. The pilot group appears to be very unified in believing that witholding their services when the government permits them to is the answer to the current leadership's behavior.
 
Max Q
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:15 am

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 14):

You clearly have no idea how contract negotiations, or the RLA works.

Let me be very clear, no one WANTS to strike. But here are the facts: Smisek promised a quick joint contract when the merger was announced in exchange for pilot cooperation. Negotiations were FLYING, but as soon as the merger was approved, management backtracked on all the progress and promises they had made. Smisek quickly negotiated a contract worth TRIPLE his previous compensation. I'll let our operational performance speak for whether he was worth the money or not. We have lived under bankruptcy concessions used to save the airline for almost a DECADE. We are extremely close to the lowest paid pilot group in the entire industry. Only USAirways East and Sun Country are lower. Smisek and crew negotiated for 15 MONTHS on work rules. The work rules we asked for were sUAL's work rules. They were previously agreed to by the company, who then redacted (see above). Mind you, these work rules are still atrocious BANKRUPTCY work rules. Delta, our main competitor, has just closed their second contract (early) since the last time we have had a contract. AMR is voting on a TA that would give their pilots (already paid substantially higher than us) a pay RAISE in Ch 11.

As to your last point.... There are lots of people who would be happy to do Smisek's job for substantially less than he is paid as well. What's your point? Sounds like a pretty good reason to have a UNION, huh??

Very well said.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 37):
2 18:55:36 your local time (3 hours 11 minutes 24 secs ago) and read 511 times: Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Don't flame me for this...
I have talked to a retired sCO pilot and a current sCO pilot. They have both told me they think the strike will not happen. Just because you for the OPTION to strike, doesn't mean you actually exercise the option. This is just putting management under pressure to get their sh!t together and to come to the negotiating table. This is simply just leverage.

Don't count on that theory. The anger and frustration towards Smisek is beyond anything I have seen since the days of Lorenzo.


His 'management' style has been a disaster with his only emphasis on paying every one else but him a lot less while increasing his salary to an obscene level. All the while customer service keeps reaching new lows.I can't think of another Airline Ceo who gets paid more to do a worse job.


It has got to the point where striking may be the only way to get the BOD to pay attention and get rid of this idiot.


In fact a strike may be the only way to save this airline.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:10 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 30):
You can blame management all you want, but the fact of the matter is the same management group has been able to come to agreements with three flight attendant groups and three mechanic groups within the last year. The pilots seems to be the only work group with issues.

And NOT ONE joint contract. You're right, three separate flight attendant contracts have been completed, but the pilots are negotiating a joint contract, so your assertion is very much case of apples vs. oranges.

"Combined synergies" that are the espoused reason for so many mergers aren't being fully realized with separate contracts.

More than two years after the merger was announced, NOT ONE joint (UA+CO) contract has been completed.

And some "A.netters" wonder why the employees don't feel the merger has been completed...  
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
777ord
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:00 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 27):
Quoting 777ord (Reply 2):
So it's gonna happen. Why not the pilots work together to get a contract rather than waste their time picketing. Be proactive, not reactive. YOU want that contract now?? work for it. I, being a part of UAL, would rather see you be positive than throw such an airline into the ground....

You can't be serious...

LOL. WE can hope, right!? If there is a glimmer of pride maybe.. just maybe.

Perhaps I am just a bit too optomistic.
 
congaboy
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:44 pm

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 14):
Smisek quickly negotiated a contract worth TRIPLE his previous compensation. I'll let our operational performance speak for whether he was worth the money or not. We have lived under bankruptcy concessions used to save the airline for almost a DECADE

Many moons ago, I was a non-contract employee at Eastern, and while I tried to see both sides of the management vs. IAM struggle, I ended up seeing that both sides were wrong, tainted, and greedy, especially the IAM. The net result is history, and the reason I have not worked at an airline since (though still in the industry). Reading 320cap's contribution above, I have to say that after many years of difficulty in seeing/justifying unionization, this particular "negotiation" has management over the top.

I had, for several years, selected UA and achieved status with Mileage Plus because I liked the product...until about 2 years ago, when I had had enough, only to see/read that UA just continues to slide. Is that labor's fault? Does that justify a large bump for management, especially the CEO? At least the cockpit crew does their day to day job, unlike the management team. Profitability is not always achieved through cost control, any hack with a BS in bus admin can do that...get creative and figure out how to boster revenue, that takes some talent.

The problem at UA is not how much pilots are being paid...its leadership. As Sting so aptly says, "history will teach us nothing".
"Joey, you like movies about gladiators?"
 
T5towbar
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting hmflyer (Reply 34):
Fact of the matter is that UCH is negotiating a joint contract with the pilots. This is something that HAS NOT yet been accomplished with any other employee group. Not one employee group has been intergrated, not one!

You are correct, it is time that UCH took a realistic look at the industry and offer their employees reasonable contracts.

So while it can be done, it has not happened yet.
Quoting flyhossd (Reply 41):
More than two years after the merger was announced, NOT ONE joint (UA+CO) contract has been completed.

And some "A.netters" wonder why the employees don't feel the merger has been completed...  

All true. We all have been waiting for contracts, but things keep being dragged out by management.
When this merger was announced, it was said that joint contracts were to be worked on in an immediate and responsible fashion. That hasn't happened. There will be no merger "synergies" until this is all resolved.

As an employee, it still feels like you are working for two separate airlines.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:42 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 40):
It has got to the point where striking may be the only way to get the BOD to pay attention and get rid of this idiot.


In fact a strike may be the only way to save this airline.

  

I can't think of another time in history when there has been so much disdain from both employees AND customers for an airline CEO. Frankly, it is shocking to me that the BoD has not outsted him yet, and I don't understand how any shareholders could have confidence in the board at this point. It is sad to see a once great airline being rapidly destroyed by a man who's over-inflated ego has blinded him to the simple realities of running a company. How can he seriously continue to record these pre-safety videos touting his shiny new paint and all of these 'changes we will like' while his employees are running around like chickens with their heads cut off and previously loyal customers are jumping ship left and right?

Like you said, a strike might seriously be the only real wake up call to the board that Smisek has failed, and every minute he is still in control brings UA closer to the brink. Sure the strike will cause a glancing blow, but ultimately could get UA back on the right track with a new management team.
 
fco110
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:56 pm

I fly to Kona on Saturday from ORD via Denver then return next Thursday. Is there an effective window for this or are we in it?
 
crj200faguy
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:04 pm

I had the privilege of meeting Gordon Bethune's son last year on a flight to IAH. He's a CO retiree but bought a ticket on another airline because he didn't want to ride on an ERJ. I asked him about the merger. He said that he and his Dad like Jeff but both thought the merger was a bad idea.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:07 pm

Relax, there is still quite a bit that has to be done before any kind of strike happens. Outside of the normal UA shenanigans, your travel should be just fine.
Life is better when you surf.
 
c680
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RE: UA Pilot Strike Vote Results?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 45):
ultimately could get UA back on the right track with a new management team

Don't be so sure. UA's brand has been badly tarnished post merger. A strike, or God forbid a crash, could result in a very, very long recovery - if ever.

These things don't help:
http://youtu.be/5YGc4zOqozo

Nor do these:
http://amplicate.com/travel-and-transport/6941-top-airlines-in-us/
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?

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