gesubsea
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D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:06 pm

So, what is everyone's take on the idea of Global Ports ~ the movement of people from one continent to another continent over a central spot to serve at least 80 or 90 international destinations, as defined in the attached article relating to DFW's plan to greatly expand its international foot print in the coming years.

According to the DFW Airport's Jeff Fegan, "the airport’s projection for the most-likely growth scenario over the next five years includes adding 26 new international destinations served by eight new airlines. That includes direct flights to Beijing, Shanghai, Istanbul, Abu Dhabi, Barcelona, Istanbul, Lima, Quito, Bogota and other cities."

Wouldn't ORD, ATL, or IAH be better served to be the next US DXB in this capacity?

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/bl...fw-airport-be-a-global-portal.html
 
gesubsea
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:09 pm

And how many airlines and international destinations are currently served by ORD, ATL & IAH respectively compared to DFW right now?
 
HPRamper
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:25 pm

If we are talking about ONE airport to be the central focus of the entire continent it would need to be located in 1) a major population market and 2) somewhat close to the population center of the continent.

The population center of North America is probably somewhere around northwest Arkansas or eastern Oklahoma right now, and DFW is the closest MAJOR population market.
 
ATLgaUSA
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting GEsubsea (Thread starter):
That includes direct flights to Beijing, Shanghai, Istanbul, Abu Dhabi, Barcelona, Istanbul, Lima, Quito, Bogota and other cities."

When coming up with the 26 cities, did they count Istanbul twice?
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:36 pm

As one of the sites biggest DFW fanboys, let me take a crack at this.

Reading the article, I find Mr. Fegans plans extremely optimistic. Yes, there is definately room for some international expansion from DFW especially given that it is the fastest (or second fastest depending on the numbers you look at) growing metro area in the US. Its also the number 8 spot in the US for international immigration which does boost things some.

However what has to be realized is that DFW's number of longhaul international destinations is not going to increase 30% in five years. Period. There are some destinations that are not as far fetched given AA's ties and a growing local market. Those might include LIM, BOG, and HKG. If QR joins OneWorld and builds a very close relationship with AA, DOH should be no problem either. Lacking any AA/QR tie up, DFW-DOH will never appear.

Then again, I think we can go ahead and count destinations like IST, UIO, AUH (unless EY joins OW), and PVG out. I cant see those really working. I know IB has mentioned DFW-BCN, but I dont think its a good idea. Unlike DFW-MAD, it has almost no local market and the hub on the BCN end is not ideal. DFW-PEK might work but it also might not. Im on the fence on that one.

Another thing that has to be taken into consideration is geography. DFW was not blessed with excellent geography the way ORD and ATL were. That does hinder things especially over the Atlantic and to Northern South America because DFW is not far east enough.

Basically I cant fault Jeff Fegan for his ambitiousness. He is doing his job which is trying to get more service here. However, I just cant see it happening in this way.

[Edited 2012-07-17 14:37:53]
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gesubsea
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 2):
If we are talking about ONE airport to be the central focus of the entire continent it would need to be located in 1) a major population market and 2) somewhat close to the population center of the continent.

The population center of North America is probably somewhere around northwest Arkansas or eastern Oklahoma right now, and DFW is the closest MAJOR population market.

Yes, but if you look at the DXB model they fulfill neither of those points really, so how can DFW be a true "Global Portal" in this instance? Another factor that should also be included would be 3) weather patterns (since DXB does not have to deal with ice / snow storms in winter and thunderstorms during spring / summer). Although, the gulf patterns could in some cases affect IAH ops in such a model as well.

One thing that I think DFW has going for it is the amount of land at its disposal to grow its Int'l terminal, whereas IAH is rather land locked unless it absorbs another Terminal in its vicinity.
 
drerx7
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4):
DFW-PEK might work but it also might not. Im on the fence on that one.

Yea...not right now with the fall off in demand for US-China traffic. I'd expect IAH to get that before DFW in the current climate.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4):
IST,

I agree...at least not by TK as they are *A and starting IAH...
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IrishAyes
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:43 pm

LOL, I just love reading these stories from my hometown airport. They seem to re-circulate every summer. Although I might argue that the media source could have been more selective in choosing their photo of Terminal D. It looks absolutely dead and outdated with a pic of the KE 772, a taxing AM 737, and (what was) an ATA L10/11 charter. When was this taken, circa 2006?

Hah.

Now, in DFW's defense, the airport has indeed grown and expanded over the years, most notably bringing in exotic carriers such as QF and EK which have performed very well, alongside growth from carriers such as NK and new incumbents such as VX and B6.

HOWEVER, I always feel as though Jeff Fegan loves to talk bigger game than one can actually vouch for.

Quoting GEsubsea (Thread starter):
According to the DFW Airport's Jeff Fegan, "the airport’s projection for the most-likely growth scenario over the next five years includes adding 26 new international destinations served by eight new airlines. That includes direct flights to Beijing, Shanghai, Istanbul, Abu Dhabi, Barcelona, Istanbul, Lima, Quito, Bogota and other cities."

Meh. A lot of hypothesizing here without much movement (until this point) to indicate otherwise.

Let's start with China: the US-China routes have proven not to be the cash cows people believed they would otherwise have been. PVG and PEK are non-OW hubs, and I cannot see any reasons why MU or CA would see potential in a route to DFW. I don't think AA is in a position to launch a DFW-PEK/PVG route; their pre-existing ops to China are still very much in development phase.

IST has already stated they have intentions to launch other US cities long before DFW, including DTW, PHL, MIA, ATL, etc. Certainly not impossible, but I doubt DFW is on the higher end of their list.

AUH is a possibility, especially if EY's ties with OneWorld continue to strengthen. There *could* be room for two UAE airlines serving DFW.

BCN I think is just an undying rumor that is about as unlikely as MAN. Spain and Southern Europe are NOT hot spots at the moment.

LIM/UIO/BOG I think are more likely possibilities, but I'd venture to say that AA sometimes has a tough time balancing its Latin American ops from DFW when it already has MIA. The purported "growth potential" of routes like DFWPTY and DFWGIG have kind of stayed stagnant over the years. Coupled with the fact that DFW is competing for Latin American traffic with options via ATL, MIA and IAH, it's probably safer to say that the primary areas of growth will come from Mexico and less so from South America.

Quoting GEsubsea (Thread starter):
Wouldn't ORD, ATL, or IAH be better served to be the next US DXB in this capacity?

The comparison to DXB and the concept of a "global portal" is stretched, IMO. NO airport in the US will ever evolve into this space simply because the traffic breakdown (domestic vs. international) is WIDELY different when comparing the top US airports to the mere TWO international airports serving the UAE.

Look at the breakdowns of the following airports and you will see the answer for yourself.

At DFW, 88% of the traffic moving through the airport is domestic, vs. 12% international.

At ATL, 87.9% is domestic, vs. 12.1% international. This is the busiest airport in the world we're talking here.

ORD: 83.5% domestic, 16.5% international.

IAH: 76.5% domestic, 23.5% international.

MIA: 55.6% domestic, 44.4% international.

Guess what the breakdown is at DXB?

.2% domestic, vs. 99.8% international.

The differences are like night and day. Dubai is only competing against one other major hub airport (AUH) for traffic. There is virtually ZERO domestic feed, which they do not need in order to support their intercontinental operations. Whereas US airports absolutely rely on their domestic ops to feed their international trunk routes. The only airport that appears remotely "balanced" between domestic and international operations is MIA, which is one of the highest O&D markets in the country (I did not count JFK/LAX/SFO because that would involve adding in calculations for surrounding airports and that would throw off the data). Whereas DXB is solely based on international traffic and let's be frank; DXB is not a large O&D market.

So, to answer your question, I foresee NONE of the airports you mentioned as becoming the next DXB, at least not in the US. Just not a concept that would ever work in theory due to geography and population diaspora. Least of all, an airport like DFW.

[Edited 2012-07-17 14:48:30]
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LAXdude1023
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting GEsubsea (Reply 5):
Yes, but if you look at the DXB model they fulfill neither of those points really, so how can DFW be a true "Global Portal" in this instance? Another factor that should also be included would be 3) weather patterns (since DXB does not have to deal with ice / snow storms in winter and thunderstorms during spring / summer). Although, the gulf patterns could in some cases affect IAH ops in such a model as well.

If youre talking about which airport really has the potential to be the DXB of the US, its niether DFW nor IAH. Its ATL. More destinations are served from ATL than either. ATL is served by 239 destinations whereas DFW and IAH are both served by about 180 not taking into account UA's recent cancellations.

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 6):
Yea...not right now with the fall off in demand for US-China traffic. I'd expect IAH to get that before DFW in the current climate.

I agree and as it should be. The local market is stronger from IAH than DFW to China (minus HKG). That logic is the whole reason DFW has service to Korea and IAH doesnt.
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incitatus
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 2):
The population center of North America is probably somewhere around northwest Arkansas or eastern Oklahoma right now, and DFW is the closest MAJOR population market.

The population center of the US is in Texas - that is Texas County, MO. Can't predict long-term trends but it seems it will continue in MO until 2040.
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LAXdude1023
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:51 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 7):
LIM/UIO/BOG I think are more likely possibilities, but I'd venture to say that AA sometimes has a tough time balancing its Latin American ops from DFW when it already has MIA.

It really just depends on the destinations. DFW-UIO is much too small a market to really work. DFW-BOG is growing and realtively fast as well. Its not very far fetched.

DFW-LIM is one that I scratch my head on. This is a route that has all the dynamics to really work, yet it never really has. Given the growth the market has seen, I think in the future it will work.
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eagle125
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:57 pm

Global Port at DFW? In FIVE years? Fegan sure is spitting out bold words these days. Must be encouraged by the NK expansion.  
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mfe777
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:57 am

DFW is a good connection point for long trips from East Asia to Central America and Western South America. With booming the booming economy in China, DFW could be a good crossroads for these long journeys. The trip length with a stop in DFW can be very close to a nonstop journey, and great domestic connections only add to the benefit.

For example:

PVG-BOG, 9789nm
PVG-DFW-BOG, 9752nm

PVG-LIM, 10,652nm
PVG-DFW-LIM, 10,708nm

PVG-MEX, 8025nm
PVG-DFW-MEX, 8286nm

ICN-BOG, 9243nm
ICN-DFW-BOG, 9279nm

ICN-LIM,
ICN-DFW-LIM,

Similar small differences from Shanghai and Seoul to Mexico City, other Mexican cities, Belize, Caracas, etc.


DFW is also not a bad stop for East Asia to the Southeastern USA such as MIA and MCO. Maybe not as good as ATL but almost just as good and almost negligible as far as extra mileage go.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:12 am

I saw a chart of the center of population trend per US census since 1790. If you followed the trend, it would actually put the center of population almost right in the middle of Houston. Since this is a pretty long term plan, and with how fast the population median is moving, wouldn't it make since for Houston to be making a plan like this? Dallas is a huge city with lots of economic interests and is fast growing, but Houston isn't too far behind in terms of rate of growth and is the energy capital of the United States, if not the world.
http://2010.census.gov/2010census/data/center-of-population.php

In the mean time, I could very well see AA supporting DFW-UIO/BOG/LIM. And if the rumors of QR joining oneworld are true, then DFW-DOH would be a no-brainer, then again, so is DFW-HKG... DFW-BCN could be done on IB doing a flight with the same number on the DFW-MAD and MAD-BCN leg also with an AA codeshare. IST, PEK, and PVG have a snowballs chance in Hell of starting anytime soon, I don't even think within the rest of this decade. As it stands right now, the only rapid growth I see in the short-run are on LCC's setting up shop in DFW.

Also, if you were to put a gigantic, DXB style, mega-airport based on geographic center, you would definitely choose RAP  Winkhttp://www.census.gov/geo/www/2010ce...p2010/centerpop_geographic2010.pdf

[Edited 2012-07-17 19:26:10]
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jporterfi
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:41 am

If, by some miracle, this starts to happen, what will WN do at DAL? Does the Wright Amendment prevent them from establishing international service at DAL (and so is AA safe from their competition)? I can see Gary Kelly planning another Houston scenario...   
 
eagle125
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:46 am

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 14):
Does the Wright Amendment prevent them from establishing international service at DAL

DAL will remain a domestic airport for all non-stop flights under the repeal compromise.
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IrishAyes
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 14):
If, by some miracle, this starts to happen, what will WN do at DAL? Does the Wright Amendment prevent them from establishing international service at DAL (and so is AA safe from their competition)? I can see Gary Kelly planning another Houston scenario...   

People tend to over-estimate the future plans WN has for DAL post 2014. They will be restricted to only 16 gates, which means that likely they will probably not exceed 150-180 daily flights, up from where they are currently at ~130. My guess is that they will trim a few of the short-haul markets in favor of opening up longer stage ones, and also deploy the 738 on a few key business routes such as LGA.

WN's international growth will come from other gateways.
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FlyingSicilian
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:32 am

Quoting eagle125 (Reply 15):
DAL will remain a domestic airport for all non-stop flights under the repeal compromise.

That is why God invented lawyers and lobbyists....but I agree DAL will stay domestic. WN can grow in too many other places for int'l.
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planeguy727
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:05 pm

Unless DFW develops a sterile transit area that does not require Int'l to Int'l connections to clear US customs and immigration it won't be the global connecting hub for anything. This is true of any US airport.
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LAXdude1023
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:47 pm

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 18):

This is an excellent point. Unless this happens, no US airport will be a DXB style hub.
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legacyins
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:52 pm

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 18):
Unless DFW develops a sterile transit area that does not require Int'l to Int'l connections to clear US customs and immigration it won't be the global connecting hub for anything. This is true of any US airport.
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 19):
This is an excellent point. Unless this happens, no US airport will be a DXB style hub.

This is a Federal issue and far above any local or State authority. In other words, never going to happen, IMO.
 
gesubsea
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting legacyins (Reply 20):
Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 18):
Unless DFW develops a sterile transit area that does not require Int'l to Int'l connections to clear US customs and immigration it won't be the global connecting hub for anything. This is true of any US airport.
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 19):
This is an excellent point. Unless this happens, no US airport will be a DXB style hub.

This is a Federal issue and far above any local or State authority. In other words, never going to happen, IMO.

VERY good point in fact!!! My and I came back from Germany last Xmas and she was unfortunately called into the Death Star Two-Way window office as her passport (complete with her permanent residency visa) was stolen from our vehicle 6 months before (she was flying on a temp. card good for one entry back into the US). While in there she was sitting next to a another German national who was in fact in there because her "transit-visa" was showing expired in the INS system. The customs agent was belittling the young lady as to why she was flying in on a non-active transit document which was in fact supplied by competent (you would THINK anyway) US Consulate officials in Frankfurt. The agents made a huge fuss and were very rude to her, but the situation was sorted. The result of the matter then was that she and her husband missed the connection to Costa Rica they were scheduled to fly and had to wait another 2 days as the next days flghts were already booked. My wife was pissed at the way our system is set up here as she feels we should in fact immulate the EU concerning how pass. are allowed to transit via a sterilized environment instead of having to clear US customs first before proceeding to the next Int'l flight. If IAH let alone any other airport in the US wants to immulate DXB and grow exponentially into a Global Portal, the government has to be convinced to setup a "sterile transit area".
 
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 7):
The purported "growth potential" of routes like DFWPTY and DFWGIG have kind of stayed stagnant over the years.

Re: DFW-PTY, AA in PTY is so MIA-centric that even AAdvantage members aren't quite aware of DFW-PTY non-stop. Also DFW-PTY-DFW is no good for connections to/from Far East.

Quoting mfe777 (Reply 12):
DFW is a good connection point for long trips from East Asia to Central America and Western South America.

I think this says what I intended to say about international to international on-line connections @ DFW.

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 18):
Unless DFW develops a sterile transit area that does not require Int'l to Int'l connections to clear US customs and immigration it won't be the global connecting hub for anything. This is true of any US airport.

Wild suggestion for DFW marketing department, there's no loss if they talk to CM, CM just started to code-share with AA OneWorld mate IB MAD-PTY. And B.T.W. CM's E190 has the range for PTY-DFW.
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kc135topboom
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:04 pm

DFW and North Texas has nothing to offer in the way of big increases for international travel. We don't have the types of industries here, with the exception of the oil industry, that attracts international businesses.

The best airports in the US for that would be ATL, BOS, JFK, IAD, IAH, LAX, and SFO. There simply is no business case to be made for North Texas, only tourism and vacationers, and even then it is limited.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:28 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):
DFW and North Texas has nothing to offer in the way of big increases for international travel. We don't have the types of industries here, with the exception of the oil industry, that attracts international businesses.

The best airports in the US for that would be ATL, BOS, JFK, IAD, IAH, LAX, and SFO. There simply is no business case to be made for North Texas, only tourism and vacationers, and even then it is limited.

With due respect, I really dont think you know much about the economy in North Texas if you truly believe that. Most of DFW's international traffic is not even from the oil industry, its from the tech industry. A common mis-conception is that DFW is an oil town which it is not. Unlike cities like Houston, the economy is heavily diversified and DFW is not really huge in one sector. Instead it has a major presence of virtually everything.

Also, you should know DFW generates more international O&D than Atlanta does, but Atlanta has a better geography than DFW does which allows for more international flights.

[Edited 2012-07-18 08:32:09]
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IrishAyes
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting mfe777 (Reply 12):
DFW is a good connection point for long trips from East Asia to Central America and Western South America. With booming the booming economy in China, DFW could be a good crossroads for these long journeys. The trip length with a stop in DFW can be very close to a nonstop journey, and great domestic connections only add to the benefit.
Quoting mfe777 (Reply 12):
DFW is also not a bad stop for East Asia to the Southeastern USA such as MIA and MCO. Maybe not as good as ATL but almost just as good and almost negligible as far as extra mileage go.

There is no "boom boom" in China and even less so when you factor in that the most likely carrier to serve DFW-China routes would be AA, which is currently facing negative 30% margins on its Pacific routes. It is vital for the carrier to "own" the region before making further expansion, especially if it is unprofitable.

Separately, I think AA truly missed the boat on DFWICN (although who knows maybe they'll try it some time).
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MAV88
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting GEsubsea (Thread starter):
So, what is everyone's take on the idea of Global Ports ~ the movement of people from one continent to another continent over a central spot to serve at least 80 or 90 international destinations, as defined in the attached article relating to DFW's plan to greatly expand its international foot print in the coming years.

According to the DFW Airport's Jeff Fegan, "the airport’s projection for the most-likely growth scenario over the next five years includes adding 26 new international destinations served by eight new airlines. That includes direct flights to Beijing, Shanghai, Istanbul, Abu Dhabi, Barcelona, Istanbul, Lima, Quito, Bogota and other cities."

Wouldn't ORD, ATL, or IAH be better served to be the next US DXB in this capacity?

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/bl....html

Even the low growth scenario seems a bit high. That's not a knock on the DFW, just the notion that any airport will see 18 new international cities service via 6 new carriers is a bit high. I don't see any U.S. city getting service to 18 new international destinations in the next five years. They are not talking about Canada, Mexico and other near by countries either.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 26):
I don't see any U.S. city getting service to 18 new international destinations in the next five years.

Miami (plus Ft Lauderdale) is in the U.S. and surely there are at least 18 markets in Latin America + Caribbean still without MIA non-stop flights.
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mfe777
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting mfe777 (Reply 12):

Also a great stopping point for Tokyo-Brazil traffic. Does anybody know if NRT-DFW-GIG or GRU is a popular route, or if the flights are timed for good connections?

EDIT- Just looked and It seems they have flights timed well with a 3-4 hour connection NRT-DFW-GRU and back. Not bad. Doesn't a lot of high yield business traffic go Japan-Brazil? Maybe AA could capitalize on this and add back DFW-KIX and possibly Sapporo or Nagoya and further expand their DFW-Brazil footprint which is already good.

[Edited 2012-07-18 09:52:17]
 
MAV88
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 27):
Quoting MAV88 (Reply 26):
I don't see any U.S. city getting service to 18 new international destinations in the next five years.

Miami (plus Ft Lauderdale) is in the U.S. and surely there are at least 18 markets in Latin America + Caribbean still without MIA non-stop flights.

They are not talking about flights to a single region. MIA/FLL is very strong to that area and I would bet more than half of their international O&D is to that region. They also do not have flights to Asia yet. DFW is talking about flights to Europe, Asia and South America. A wide range.
 
planeguy727
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:50 pm

re: sterile transit area

Before E gates open in ATL the T area was a sterile int'l concourse (I worked there). Still not really set for cx pax, but it did allow for things like the LTU pax to get off the plane on the DUS-ATL-SJO route and shop in the duty free, etc. Of course that was a long time ago...
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LAXdude1023
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting mfe777 (Reply 28):
Does anybody know if NRT-DFW-GIG or GRU is a popular route, or if the flights are timed for good connections?

Indeed NRT-DFW-GRU is extremely popular. In fact, the shortest travel time from GRU to NRT is through DFW based on the scheduled times.

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 26):
Even the low growth scenario seems a bit high. That's not a knock on the DFW, just the notion that any airport will see 18 new international cities service via 6 new carriers is a bit high. I don't see any U.S. city getting service to 18 new international destinations in the next five years. They are not talking about Canada, Mexico and other near by countries either.

^^^This. Cant blame the guy for being so ambitious because thats his job, but its unrealistic. 3-6 new international destinations in the next two to three years is not unrealistic, but alot would probably be shorter haul.
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IrishAyes
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:18 pm

Quoting mfe777 (Reply 28):
Maybe AA could capitalize on this and add back DFW-KIX and possibly Sapporo or Nagoya and further expand their DFW-Brazil footprint which is already good.

DFWKIX has been attempted several times. It was first a 9/11 victim and then re-attempted in better times, but the route performed poorly in a very short duration. KIX is a high-cost airport to fly into and AA couldn't stimulate the market to sustain the route. The DFW-Brazil footprint was pretty much as good then as it is now, with the exception of the new 3x weekly GIG flights, so with oil prices even higher than they were in 2006, I doubt they'll try this one again.
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Bobloblaw
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting GEsubsea (Thread starter):
Wouldn't ORD, ATL, or IAH be better served to be the next US DXB in this capacity?

Do you expect DFW to sit idle and let IAH to take all the economic growth?
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:07 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 33):
Do you expect DFW to sit idle and let IAH to take all the economic growth?

Ditto for IAH. I suspect that HAS is likely working just as hard as the folks in the Metroplex in securing new services, difference is HAS is much more tight lipped on it's plans (at least they have been in the past).
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blink182
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:43 pm

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 18):

Unless DFW develops a sterile transit area that does not require Int'l to Int'l connections to clear US customs and immigration it won't be the global connecting hub for anything. This is true of any US airport.

Yes. One would especially think that given all of the hassles non US-citizens have to go through to transit, that this wold be a high priority. Perhaps even US O&D pax would feel the benefit in the form of profitable airlines. I'm sure airports would be willing to pay for the infrastructure if their hub airlines promised increased pax numbers and routes.

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 34):
difference is HAS is much more tight lipped on it's plans (at least they have been in the past).

IAH has also been able to sustain existing services far better than DFW has. I have noticed that DFW tends to get overly excited about the next new thing without looking after its current carriers. Case in point: DFW is thrilled about EK and QF along with BA upgauges with more AA/BA LHR frequencies, but lest we forget that LH and KL operate their smallest longhaul airplanes on less than daily bases. In KL's case, the service is seasonal, and IMO imminent on the chopping block if KL sees another opportunity. On the other hand, AF downgauged IAH when CO left SkyTeam, but they neither threatened to leave the market nor showed any likelihood of doing so. My best suggestion for DFW is to do whatever they need to do in order to keep LH and KL from pulling out. Unlike a new entrant, LH and KL actually pay user fees to the airport.
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legacyins
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:08 am

Quoting blink182 (Reply 35):
Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 18):

Unless DFW develops a sterile transit area that does not require Int'l to Int'l connections to clear US customs and immigration it won't be the global connecting hub for anything. This is true of any US airport.

Yes. One would especially think that given all of the hassles non US-citizens have to go through to transit, that this wold be a high priority. Perhaps even US O&D pax would feel the benefit in the form of profitable airlines. I'm sure airports would be willing to pay for the infrastructure if their hub airlines promised increased pax numbers and routes.

Again, please see respons 20. Sterile areas at airports for foreign flights need concurrence from the Federal Government. No airport in the United States can create a sterile area, even if they think it is a "great" idea. You go to Asia, Europe and it is quite common. Pre 9/11, some US airports had some function avaiable to transit without going through FIS formalities. DHS would not approve of this in the environment.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion

Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting blink182 (Reply 35):
IAH has also been able to sustain existing services far better than DFW has.

Not necessarily so. In some cases yes, others no, but this brings into question the classic DFW vs. IAH debate which, in reality, is a bit frivolous IMO.

Neither of the two airports are vying against each other for increased air services. In some cases, yes the close proximity between the two renders it unnecessary to add flights to both if one is already served (hence covering the entire region) but overall they attract different types of foreign traffic.

Indeed, it's no doubt that IAH attracts more premium-level traffic due to the energy ties. Hence, why you have the likes of SQ and QR flying to IAH, alongside LH's A380.

BUT, there are some success stories in DFW's favor - recall that EK dropped the 2nd daily IAH flight and moved it to DFW, based on the overall traffic patterns which were showing many of those PAX originated in DFW. That says something.

There were also tons of naysayers who believed that QF's initial 3 (or was it 4?) weekly services from DFW to SYD/BNE wouldn't last. Low and behold, it has gone up to daily starting this month, roughly a year and two months after its inception. That is VERY promising in this oil environment, coupled with the shaky financial position Qantas is in.

Quoting blink182 (Reply 35):
but lest we forget that LH and KL operate their smallest longhaul airplanes on less than daily bases. In KL's case, the service is seasonal, and IMO imminent on the chopping block if KL sees another opportunity.

DFW lured KLM during better times - circa 2007, long before AA/BA had access to LHR from DFW. Until that point, LH was virtually the only carrier that connected DFW to the world beyond FRA: Continental Europe, Africa, Middle East, Asia. BA's DFWLGW flight was one of the lowest yielding in its entire system.

Once AA and BA received ATI, DFWLHR goes 4x-5x daily during the high season, which naturally is difficult for airlines such as the daily LH or the 5w KL to compete against. Coupled with a horrible premium travel environment, and the overall mediocre health that these big European network carriers are in, naturally it will be challenging for them to sustain long-haul intercontinental services.

My point is, very little of this has anything to do with IAH whatsoever.

Quoting blink182 (Reply 35):
On the other hand, AF downgauged IAH when CO left SkyTeam, but they neither threatened to leave the market nor showed any likelihood of doing so.

Neither has LH nor KL. They've just reduced frequencies or operated seasonally. Even AA reduced DFWFRA (and DFWCDG) to 6w (same as LH) during the winter season.

And, without opening a can of worms here, UA is ditching IAHCDG, which says less about IAH and more about the nature of the yields to Paris.

Quoting blink182 (Reply 35):
My best suggestion for DFW is to do whatever they need to do in order to keep LH and KL from pulling out.

I don't think LH is at risk of pulling out.

KL has not stated any intentions of dropping DFW, but in that same vein they have neither announced plans to resume it year round. Last I heard they were planning on returning in S13, although plans could certainly change. If they do, then that is certainly a good barometer to show that DFW can pull through for KL even when competing against AA/BA, LH and especially EK.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.

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