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usxguy
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Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:07 pm

Was a bit surprised to see this buried in a fare-related press release:

In addition, the airline's parent company, Hawaiian Holdings, has signed a Letter of Intent to acquire turbo-prop aircraft with the aim of establishing a subsidiary carrier to serve routes not currently in Hawaiian's neighbor island system.

Wonder what impact this will have on Island Air.... I think Mokulele will be OK as the Caravans can definitely fly where a Dash 8/ATR/Saab can't..

More at: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hawaii...ves-neighbor-island-194100380.html
xx
 
rj777
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:14 pm

Does anyone hold the naming rights to Aloha? If not, maybe they could use that as the name.
 
srbmod
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:32 pm

Quoting rj777 (Reply 1):
Does anyone hold the naming rights to Aloha? If not, maybe they could use that as the name.

Back in 2011, one of the former majority shareholders of Aloha bought the name and associated trademark, presumably to prevent Mesa from renaming Go! to Aloha. Perhaps they could be persuaded to sell it or license the name and trademarks.

As for what to call this subsidiary, I hope they don't take the easy way out and call it Hawaiian Express,. Hawaiian Connection or HA Express/HA Connection. Maybe name it after a Hawaiian word for something like voyage, flight, bird, or wind.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:34 pm

They didn't say what sort of turboprops.

I'm a bit out of the loop on currently available turboprops. There is the Q400, of course. What else is on the market at this time?

I seem to recall that on some very short routes, a jet actually takes longer to make the flight than a turboprop. I wonder if HNL-OGG is one of those routes. It took us 23 minutes from wheels-up to wheels-down when we did it on a 717.
-Doc Lightning-

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NZ107
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:38 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
What else is on the market at this time?

The new ATR 72-600.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
Metjetceo
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:49 pm

Im thinking of Lanai and Molokai.
I would suspect this could devastate Island Air
 
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RWA380
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:50 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
They didn't say what sort of turboprops.

I'm a bit out of the loop on currently available turboprops. There is the Q400, of course. What else is on the market at this time?

I seem to recall that on some very short routes, a jet actually takes longer to make the flight than a turboprop. I wonder if HNL-OGG is one of those routes. It took us 23 minutes from wheels-up to wheels-down when we did it on a 717.

I think HA needs to have a presence on MKK & LNY at least, they have flown there several times, I personally have flown HA's SD-330's, Dash-7's, DC-9's to MKK the DC-9's seemed to take a little less time, but on such a short route the time savings was marginal at best. I'd think JHM would also be of interest again to HA. I like the Q400, I've flown those, I'm sure the ATR would be the other consideration. I also lived in Hawaii during the Mahalo days and their ATR's were a decent ride throughout the Islands, but Mahalo's F-27's were a bit run down, but still decent.

On a side note, I did notice when flying HNL-OGG on D10's, L10's that the flight seems to take longer, maybe due to the fact they taxi to the reef runway in HNL or the bird just goes slower, but my flights on this route with UA, AA & DL never were as short as an AQ 73S or HA DC9 or 717.

[Edited 2012-07-17 14:53:50]
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
BMI727
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 2):
Back in 2011, one of the former majority shareholders of Aloha bought the name and associated trademark, presumably to prevent Mesa from renaming Go! to Aloha. Perhaps they could be persuaded to sell it or license the name and trademarks.

Isn't it now owned by Aloha Air Cargo, which is owned by Saltchuk Resources (the same people behind Northern Air Cargo)?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):

They didn't say what sort of turboprops

I'd put my early money on the ATR-72. The stage lengths probably don't justify the extra cost of the Q400, although it can fit a few more seats.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Isn't it now owned by Aloha Air Cargo, which is owned by Saltchuk Resources (the same people behind Northern Air Cargo)?

Yucaipa Cos, Aloha's former owner, owns all of their intellectual property (logos, trademarks, etc). There is a condition imposed by the bankruptcy judge that prohibits them from selling the name to Mesa.

Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
G500
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:16 pm

The Dash-8-400 doesn't seem like a good replacement for the B717...
 
ElpinDAB
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:23 pm

Fwiw, Flight Global's article says they are looking at turboprops with 50 seats or less.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ch-new-regional-subsidiary-374464/

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
The Dash-8-400 doesn't seem like a good replacement for the B717...

The article also states that the aircraft are intended to operate smaller routes currently not served by HA for either economic or operational purposes. They could also use the aircraft to serve existing markets during off-peak times. It does not sound like these will replace the 717 in any way.

For props with 50 seats or less, maybe the ATR-42-600? Either that, or they might have to buy used.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:25 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
The Dash-8-400 doesn't seem like a good replacement for the B717...

They are NOT replacing 717s.

Any turboprops added to the fleet will be for an "express" carrier and must have less than 69 seats and 69,000 lbs (per recent union deals). Turboprops can not fly between the 5 major airports in Hawaii (HNL, OGG, LIH, KOA & ITO). They will be restricted to serving smaller communities in Hawaii (LNY, MKK, & JHM are the obvious ones, also possible are Hana, Kamuela, & Princeville) or feeding HA's mainland airports served by 767/A330.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
BMI727
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:27 pm

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 11):
Any turboprops added to the fleet will be for an "express" carrier and must have less than 69 seats and 69,000 lbs (per recent union deals).

In that case I think the ATR has to be considered the front runner at this point.

Unless of course Xian or Antonov have anything to say about it...  
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
skymiler
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
In that case I think the ATR has to be considered the front runner at this point.

Unless of course Xian or Antonov have anything to say about it...

Or new build Viking Twotters!!!  
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Flaps
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:37 pm

I'll cast my lot with ATR as well on a new build. Although I personally would prefer the Q, it's too much aircraft and too expensive to operate on these short stages where its speed advantage is negated. ATR is the only game in town for the 50 seat market anyway.
 
ElpinDAB
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:46 pm

Somehow I overlooked in the FlightGlobal article that it states 6 *used* turboprops with 50 seats or less. That broadens the range somewhat.

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 11):
Any turboprops added to the fleet will be for an "express" carrier and must have less than 69 seats and 69,000 lbs (per recent union deals).
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
In that case I think the ATR has to be considered the front runner at this point.

BMI, this still doesn't eliminate the Q400, which weighs under 69,000lbs and could be configured for less than 69 seats.
 
BMI727
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 15):
BMI, this still doesn't eliminate the Q400, which weighs under 69,000lbs and could be configured for less than 69 seats.

It makes it an uphill battle, since the Q400 is expensive enough as it is.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:00 pm

Okay, we need one of the wizards on here to do their thing and slap the current HA c/s onto a Q400 and an ATR so we can see what it'll look like  

Although, I was able to find this old pic, the design has really changed though:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Colin Zuppicich

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AA737-823
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:13 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
I'd put my early money on the ATR-72. The stage lengths probably don't justify the extra cost of the Q400, although it can fit a few more seats.

My thoughts exactly. But with the revelation (a few comments down) that they're looking in the 50 seat group, I have no idea what they'd pick, other than an ATR-42... unless they go.... USED. Oh boy.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Isn't it now owned by Aloha Air Cargo, which is owned by Saltchuk Resources (the same people behind Northern Air Cargo)?

Yep.

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 8):
Yucaipa Cos, Aloha's former owner, owns all of their intellectual property (logos, trademarks, etc). There is a condition imposed by the bankruptcy judge that prohibits them from selling the name to Mesa.

Nope.
Or at least, doubtful.
Aloha Air Cargo is a subsidiary of Saltchuk. The intellectual property may be owned by Aunt Meredith, but in some way shape or form, Saltchuk is operating the airline.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:28 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 18):
Nope.
Or at least, doubtful.
Aloha Air Cargo is a subsidiary of Saltchuk. The intellectual property may be owned by Aunt Meredith, but in some way shape or form, Saltchuk is operating the airline.

Aloha Air Cargo took AQ's FAA operating certificate, the AQ code and "Aloha" callsign but the name "Aloha Airlines" and the bird of paradise logo, red script "Aloha," and the previous logos used by Aloha (Funbird, etc) are owned by Yucaipa.

http://www.staradvertiser.com/busine...rlines_name_sold.html?id=112922419

Quote:
Aloha Airlines' name has been sold, but go! Mokulele won't be able to use it.

Los Angeles-based Yucaipa Cos., the former majority shareholder of Aloha, won federal Bankruptcy Court approval last week to buy the Aloha name and other intellectual property for $1.5 million with a stipulation that it not resell the name to Mesa Air Group, the parent of go! Mokulele.

Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
flyby519
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:33 pm

AA/MQ has been trying to sell off the regional feed, maybe HA would buy the OW certificate since it has an ATR training program. I'd love to see ATRs in Hawaiian colors!

Anyone have details how the subsidiary will be structured? Wholly owned I assume? Hawaiian pilots/FAs/mechanics on the mainline seniority list?

[Edited 2012-07-17 17:29:09]
These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
 
richierich
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:20 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
I seem to recall that on some very short routes, a jet actually takes longer to make the flight than a turboprop. I wonder if HNL-OGG is one of those routes. It took us 23 minutes from wheels-up to wheels-down when we did it on a 717

It depends on which direction they fly, what runways are in-use, etc. I just flew OGG-HNL on a HA B717 and it took about 33 minutes. We departed Maui to the north, then flew down past Molokai toward Oahu, landing at HNL to the north. I imagine the return trip was probably more like your flight,
None shall pass!!!!
 
aztrainer
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 11):
Any turboprops added to the fleet will be for an "express" carrier and must have less than 69 seats and 69,000 lbs (per recent union deals). Turboprops can not fly between the 5 major airports in Hawaii (HNL, OGG, LIH, KOA & ITO). They will be restricted to serving smaller communities in Hawaii (LNY, MKK, & JHM are the obvious ones, also possible are Hana, Kamuela, & Princeville) or feeding HA's mainland airports served by 767/A330.

What about a route that would cause the planes to fly direct to major airports, but skip HNL such as OGG-KOA, OGG-ITO as well as the smaller airports? Would Kauai see much of this traffic? It seems that it is far enough away from HNL that it would be cost prohibitive to fly an ATR vs a 717.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:53 am

The following is based on my understanding if the recently ratified Flight Attendant contract at HA:

The feeder carrier may not operate any flights between HNL-OGG, HNL-LIH, HNL-KOA, or HNL-ITO. It could operate, for example OGG-ITO, OGG-KOA, KOA-MKK, LIH-LNY, HNL-LNY, HNL-MKK, HNL-JHM, etc.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
ridgid727
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:57 am

Saabs or Emb120's would be in the 30 passenger range, which would be perfect for some of those secondary markets.
 
hnl-jack
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:01 am

This is a surprise, but may make sense. HA is dominant in the inter island market, but is no longer able to serve the whole market with the 717's. This does leave the back door open and although Island Air and Mesa have not shown much in the way of aggressive marketing or desire to grow beyond their existing operations. By buying a few relatively cheap turboprops, HA with its connection potential can lock up the market. They are already the preferred airline and good community citizens. Can't see Island Air surviving or for that matter Mesa who just seems to be hanging on with their fleet of five CRJ 200's.
 
SWALUV
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:16 am

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 22):
or feeding HA's mainland airports served by 767/A330.

This brings up an interesting point. I could see this more on the east coast than on the west coast due to the limited flight out of JFK. DCA/IAD/BWI as well as ATL, CLT, ORD???, BOS, PWM, PIT, PHL????, AVP???????????, could be very interesting airport's to see this feeder service for the one A330 flight. If the demand was high enough than this would allow a second HNL-JFK to be put into service (slot permitting) as well as allow HA to keep more profits to its self ( limited need for B6). Could we possibly see B717 on the east coast for this specific reason of feeder flights??
 
greggariouspdx
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:37 am

Would love to see scheduled service to Waimea on the Big Island started up again. The props might make that route work.
 
hnl-jack
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:57 am

Quoting SWALUV (Reply 26):
Could we possibly see B717 on the east coast for this specific reason of feeder flights??

Not likely in my opinion. I believe HA knows its niche and will depend on partnership feeds as it increases its outreach on the mainland, Asia and who knows, with the A-350 perhaps Europe.
 
USAirALB
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:15 am

I have a hard time seeing HA in any form doing feeder flights on the East Coast, primarily because they could get another airline to codeshare with at a lower cost (B6) and Hawaii is still an exotic place for most people on the East coast (I'll admit it is getting more popular and accesible) and on the East Coast, we have the luxury of the Caribbean and Mexico being both within easy reach, the West Coast only has Hawaii and Mexico.

I could see HA doing feeder flights on the West coast, similar to what AQ did. Maybe LAX-RNO/TUS or SEA-GEG/BOI. The only problem would be competition.

The perfect name for this new service? Kukini Air by Hawaiian. Kukini meaning a fast messenger. Or perhaps, Wiki Air by Hawaiian, Wiki meaning fast. Just thinking at 215am haha
E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/77W/319/320/321/333/343
 
HAL
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:39 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 2):
As for what to call this subsidiary, I hope they don't take the easy way out and call it Hawaiian Express,. Hawaiian Connection or HA Express/HA Connection. Maybe name it after a Hawaiian word for something like voyage, flight, bird, or wind

Going out on a limb here, but maybe... Hawaiian Airlines?

With the brand loyalty and airline identity already well established, I don't see why the airline would call it anything other than HA. Since HA used to fly Shorts and Dash 7's, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to keep the new turboprops part of the mainline family.

HAL
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koruman
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:56 am

Isn't this a fairly straightforward attempt to stitch up the markets to Kapalua and Princeville, both of which now have very substantial numbers of hotel and timeshare beds?

I'm sure that Lanai and Molokai will also be served, but they both have tiny populations and Molokai's hotel industry collapsed a few years ago when Molokai Ranch closed the former Sheraton properties, tentalows and all.

I would guess that at present 95%+ of tourists to Kaanapali and Kapalua fly into Kahului because Island Air's fares are substantially higher. I suppose Hawaiian already gets those fares, but maybe they want to get the other 5% back from Island Air while also charging slightly higher fares than to Kahului.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:11 am

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 24):
Saabs or Emb120's would be in the 30 passenger range, which would be perfect for some of those secondary markets.

Unfortunately, all of those are now thoroughly flown or already parked in a desert somewhere, as much as it saddens me.
But depending on the number of frames, I suppose they could still find a few in good condition somewhere.

There's nothing but the ATR 42 if they go for new frames, and even if they don't, used ATRs will probably be the logical choice. There's no better option for island hopping, although they could also find a few used Q300s or F50s.
Now, that'd be interesting.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
aztrainer
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:19 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 29):
I could see HA doing feeder flights on the West coast, similar to what AQ did. Maybe LAX-RNO/TUS or SEA-GEG/BOI. The only problem would be competition.

I would doubt it as they are again needing the 717's in Hawai'i. Also with something like TUS, it is only 100 miles to the south of PHX and I do not see people flying to RNO and then to LAS or LAX when they simply can drive up I-10.

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 25):
Can't see Island Air surviving or for that matter Mesa who just seems to be hanging on with their fleet of five CRJ 200's.

I am wondering if HA would try to buy out Island Air. They have 6 - Dash 8-100's, 1 - SAAB - 340b and options on 6 ATR-72-212's. This seems to be what they are looking at acquiring.

Maybe this will cause Go! to go away......

Quoting HAL (Reply 30):
Going out on a limb here, but maybe... Hawaiian Airlines?

Agree, if it is not broken, don't fix it.....
 
SWALUV
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:30 pm

It would be sad to see Island Air go...  

Could it be possible that in the long run Island Air get bought by HA? ( I know a extremely far possibility but that would help them alot)
 
iceberg210
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:14 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 32):
Unfortunately, all of those are now thoroughly flown or already parked in a desert somewhere, as much as it saddens me.

True, however in the case of the EMB120 it is still 'technically' available as it's made on the same line as the ERJ's and Legacys and can be bought in one off variety (and has been). Granted I doubt that'd happen, but I'm still curious why EMB hasn't done a bit of updating (newer engines etc) for the EMB120 and see if they couldn't get a few orders for what is today the only 30 seater on the market. I wonder if Skywest wouldn't be at least somewhat interested.

Is it likely to happen? No not at all! But it is an option, and if I were Hawaiian I'd want to look at the option at least.
Erik Berg (Foster's is over but never forgotten)
 
bwphoto
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:58 pm

FWIW, the Aloha Air Cargo U.S. trademarks are owned of record by Aeko Kula, Inc. CORPORATION HAWAII 371 Aokea Place Honolulu HAWAII 96819
 
northstardc4m
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:17 pm

The Q400 didn't do very well with Island Air as i recall? They sent it back after 6 months or so?

I see ATRs in HA's future personally. Hawaii puts all the pros into the ATR42 column, not BBD/Q400.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
b6a322
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:35 pm

I'm lucky enough to be in HNL this week, and read in the star advertiser this morning (not sure of its credibility, but hey its free at the hotel) that the turboprops HA is looking to acquire will be used.
The content I post are my own thoughts, nothing more. :)
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting B6A322 (Reply 38):
I'm lucky enough to be in HNL this week, and read in the star advertiser this morning (not sure of its credibility, but hey its free at the hotel) that the turboprops HA is looking to acquire will be used.

I'd bet on either the Q300 or ATR42 then.
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T prop
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:48 pm

ATR42-500. >>>ATR people were in HNL last week.
 
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Pohakuloa
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting T prop (Reply 40):
ATR42-500. >>>ATR people were in HNL last week.

So WP will be getting ATR's, HA may be getting ATR's.... I wonder where this will leave Kapalua when the smoke clears...
Fast cars and 'Jet A' - such a sweet smell!
 
JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:12 pm

Saw this on Hawaiinewsnow.com

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/1...-looks-to-boost-interisland-travel

Doesn't sounds like there will be many planes, most likely less than 10; but really to open up smaller routes as has been suggested.
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
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usxguy
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 41):
I wonder where this will leave Kapalua when the smoke clears...

On Caravans!
xx
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 21):
It depends on which direction they fly, what runways are in-use, etc. I just flew OGG-HNL on a HA B717 and it took about 33 minutes. We departed Maui to the north, then flew down past Molokai toward Oahu, landing at HNL to the north. I imagine the return trip was probably more like your flight,

The really stunning part is that they still manage a (limited) beverage service. I remember being blown away by that. Most airlines wouldn't bother.
-Doc Lightning-

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daviation
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:38 pm

I am flying next week from HNL-JHM. I would have loved to remain on HA for the entire trip from JFK, but HA doesn't currently fly to JHM. So it's WP.
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Jean Leloup
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:54 pm

Am I the only one that has noticed that the Hawaii News Now link contradicts what has been said above? It does not say that HA will be acquiring props, but rather that they have signed an agreement with a smaller carrier to do T-Prop flying for them:

Hawaiian also announced it's signed a letter of intent with a confidential subsidiary carrier to fly turbo propeller planes to new cities. Details are still being finalized but it could add three to six prop planes with fewer than 50 seats. They may go to places where there is already big change, like Lanai.

Could this be anone other than WP? Seems like HA teaming up with WP to finish off Mesa?

JL

p.s. I love HA and want to see them do well, but let's not forget what a lack of competition will do to fares if they are 'too' successful.
Next flight.... who knows.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:32 pm

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 46):
Could this be anone other than WP? Seems like HA teaming up with WP to finish off Mesa?

JL

p.s. I love HA and want to see them do well, but let's not forget what a lack of competition will do to fares if they are 'too' successful.

Yep. High fares will attract a new entrant. I love HA, but without competition... ugh. Friends are starting to fly 'further out' as the vacation costs are net the same as Hawaii for a non-short vacations (say a week) once hotel, food, and airfare are combined. I want HA and Hawaii to do well. But part of the fun of a Hawaiian vacation is island hopping. The market has this amazing ability to adjust and new vacation spots open every year it seams (e.g., Costa Rica is very popular among those who feel 'priced out' of Hawaii).

Lightsaber
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ElpinDAB
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:27 am

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 42):
Hawaiinewsnow.com

Major blow from the article: "Hawaiian also announced it's signed a letter of intent with a confidential subsidiary carrier to fly turbo propeller planes to new cities."

Not really surprising, but it sounds like this will be outsourced flying.
My pessimistic outlook is that Hawaiian has finally succumbed to the influence of the lower 48 and is now having to outsource to compete. I hope you HA pilots have a strong scope, or this might actually eat into your 717 flying. The guise is always good, but it progresses towards the worst from there.

How else can HA compete within these small markets? Why outsource?

Quoting HAL (Reply 30):

Thoughts?
 
HAL
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RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...

Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:36 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
I want HA and Hawaii to do well. But part of the fun of a Hawaiian vacation is island hopping.


An airplane flight is an airplane flight, no matter how short it is. That first foot off the runway takes the vast majority of the fare. I've said it many times here, but the fixed costs for an airline are huge, and even if they fly really short flights like HA, you still have to charge enough to make back the cost, with a small profit too. That honestly puts the fares for an airline like HA in the $70 range each way to make it doable.

When you figure in the costs that don't vary with flight length, you get gate rental, landing fees, ticket counter rental, ground service staff salaries, maintenance staff salaries, spare parts costs, per-cycle maintenance costs, per-cycle insurance costs, per-cycle wear (like tires), office rental, training department (simulator, staff, & instructor) costs, administrative staff salaries, and advertising. Then the actual flight costs are much higher per mile, because the pilots & FA's are paid per hour, and since the average speed of the short flights is less, they're paid more per mile than long-haul crew. The planes also cost more because they use relatively more fuel & have higher maintenance costs on a short flight because most of the engine & airframe wear & tear, along with fuel usage, is accomplished on the takeoff and climbout.

Yes, people in Hawaii are still clamoring for $9 fares, or $19 fares, or $29 fares. They simply won't look at the reality that it costs the airline a lot of money to get you the 100 miles from Honolulu to Kahului. The history of Hawaiian aviation is littered with dead airlines, most of whom succumbed to the siren song of charging really low fares, which ended up killing them. If you want HA to succeed, they'll need to charge what it costs to fly from A to B. Period.

Quoting daviation (Reply 45):
I am flying next week from HNL-JHM. I would have loved to remain on HA for the entire trip from JFK, but HA doesn't currently fly to JHM. So it's WP.

Fly here again next year, and it may be different.  

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.