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New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:03 am

The previous thread has become quite long and difficult to manage for some users. Please feel free to add your contributions to the new thread.

Part 35 can be found here: New Frontier/Republic #35

Enjoy the website!  


Rgds

SA7700
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ATWZW170
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:12 pm

Personally I would like to know what steps have been taken to make Frontier an attractive partner for investors or possible merger. It has been sometime since the separation was announced and other than pay and benefits being frozen, no other injection of funds has come to fruition.

If AA/US do in fact team up, we will be left with 3 mega carriers (AA, DL, UA) - two large LCC's (WN, B6), an awesome airline that will do it their way (AS), and a few small airlines (F9, NK, VX). The smaller carriers will more than likely not have pricing power. So how small is too small to be an effective competitor in a market? Frontier may have quite a bit of local traffic in DEN but if the fares are low you still won't make money. Would a tie up of NK and F9 make sense? Of course what does F9 bring to the table - high pilot costs and a hub and spoke network that probably doesn't fit into Spirit's way of doing business. Does Spirit circle until the time is right and swoop in to pick up any pieces? And where is the long term road map that explains the goals and benchmarks the company wants to achieve?

I'll be interested to see how Q2 does for F9. Hopefully no more fuzzy math, write off's, and a profit is posted.
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illinoisman
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:51 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 304):
Myself, I have no idea what this "hometown airline" concept is, or what it is worth, if anything.

Midwest was the "hometown airline" at MKE, but it didn't help Midwest any.

What about in 2004 when NW built-up a focus city at MKE? That failed attempt was the result of NW not being able to draw away YX's customers - and the fares were dirt cheap.
 
smoot4208
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:28 am

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 2):
What about in 2004 when NW built-up a focus city at MKE? That failed attempt was the result of NW not being able to draw away YX's customers - and the fares were dirt cheap.

You have this inception that F9 chose to screw over MKE/Midwest. It continues every thread yet people continuously point out to you YX's failed business model. So MKE customers stayed behind YX while NW added what...12 destinations? The point is, Mariner/others are correct in saying when YX was in trouble, and FL came into town, consumers decided to fly FL over YX. I'm not a huge "loyal" F9 fan, but to suggest that Republic or F9 is responsible for YX's mistakes doesn't make sense. Also, just to point out one example in the past, doesn't make it true for everything else. Legacies were making money back in the 1990s without bag fees; Does that mean they shouldn't charge bag fees today? YX started losing customers and it's business plan back in the early 2000s. I truly am sorry for MKE customers, but this absolute disdain for F9 needs to stop. It wasn't their fault or Bryan Bedford's fault (In fact Bedford tried to add back flights to MKE, but consumers decided to stay with FL/WN). As far as hometowns go, the same most likely holds true in DEN. A "Hometown airline" really only apply to legacies now a days like ATL is DL country and CLT is US territory. Even people in MSP most likely think of DL for their travel plans before they think of the "hometown airline" SY.

On a side note, VX is the "hometown carrier" in SFO, yet they continue to lose money...Just because an airline is based/headquartered in a city doesn't guarantee it any type of revenue premium.

[Edited 2012-07-19 00:29:24]

[Edited 2012-07-19 00:31:48]
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:30 am

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 2):
What about in 2004 when NW built-up a focus city at MKE? That failed attempt was the result of NW not being able to draw away YX's customers - and the fares were dirt cheap.

Midwest Financial Results:

2001: -$15M
2002: -$10M
2003: -$13M
2004: -$43M
2005: -$65M

YX may have kept the passengers, but at a price.

-Dave
-Dave
 
smoot4208
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:33 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 4):
Midwest Financial Results:

2001: -$15M
2002: -$10M
2003: -$13M
2004: -$43M
2005: -$65M

YX may have kept the passengers, but at a price.

Thanks. This supports my example from above
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:49 am

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 5):
Thanks. This supports my example from above

Well, and add to that that TPG/NWA paid $450M for YX, then turned around and sold it for $31M to Republic. That's a $419M bath - before Republic ever entered the picture. A great carrier, but they couldn't make it work. And that was WITH a NW codeshare to boot.

Oh wellz...

-Dave
-Dave
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:31 am

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 2):
What about in 2004 when NW built-up a focus city at MKE?

In 2004 things were quite different. Midwest had not bastardized the brand with Saver, the economy wasn't in recession and oil was at $35 a barrel.

Even so, the airline couldn't provide the classic service at dirt cheap prices and expect to make money.

In 2008, just four years later, Midwest lost half a billion dollars, partly because of losses (charges) accumulated at that time.

mariner

[Edited 2012-07-19 01:34:53]
aeternum nauta
 
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illinoisman
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 3):
You have this inception that F9 chose to screw over MKE/Midwest.

Ok, and how does what I just said have anything to do with that? I didn't even mention F9, and I was simply rebuffing the claim that being a "hometown" airline is worthless.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 4):
Midwest Financial Results:

2001: -$15M
2002: -$10M
2003: -$13M
2004: -$43M
2005: -$65M

I like how you cut it off right before they started making money again:

Midwest Reports 2006 Profit! (by N917ME Jan 25 2007 in Civil Aviation)

They also did make a profit every year from 1987 through 2000.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 8):
I didn't even mention F9, and I was simply rebuffing the claim that being a "hometown" airline is worthless.

That's exactly the point - being the hometown airline did prove to be worthless to Midwest - it cost the airline dear.

Midwest may have won battles along the way - but it lost the war.

mariner

[Edited 2012-07-19 13:07:19]
aeternum nauta
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:25 pm

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 8):

I like how you cut it off right before they started making money again:

Ok, well I like how you cut off right before they bought the farm, but that wasn't the point.  
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 8):
They also did make a profit every year from 1987 through 2000.

I didn't go back that far because you were addressing a 2004 "success" of theirs. I just showed that 2004 (and 2005) were anything but "successful" from a profit and loss point of view. I included 2001-2003 because they showed the trend leading up to the 2004 "success". I stopped at 2005 because I don't know when NW pulled back on MKE and I wasn't clear on their own operating philosophy at that time.

I'm not disputing that YX was able to hold their own or whatever against NW - indeed, their revenues seemed to soar in the 2004-2006 period. However, their losses tripled in 2004 vs the preceding 3 years - then increased significantly again in 2005. I think that points to the "how" of their growth - they chose to take a loss to defend their marketshare, and it appears that it worked.

-Dave
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:54 pm

The wash-up from the summer should prove interesting. As in the last thread, we know that GTF is getting good loads, and BIS as well, it seems:

http://bismarcktribune.com/business/...0-bbb6-11e1-acbd-001a4bcf887a.html

"Frontier Airlines filled 97 percent of its available seating capacity in the first month of operation."

Which (without an actual l/f) seems to have held up in June:

http://bismarcktribune.com/business/...2-cc71-11e1-8f83-0019bb2963f4.html

"Frontier Airlines helped Bismarck airplane boardings reach another record.

The Bismarck Airport had 21,140 passengers for June 2012 compared to 16,055 for June 2011, a 31.6 percent increase."


I don't have any actual numbers for MDT, but dickie birds tell me it has been knock-your-socks-off, which is presumably why they have extended the season.

And according to one dickie bird, there'll be a new city in October. I haven't confirmed it with any other source yet, so I'll just say that it isn't too far from Chicago and has a SCASD grant attached to it.  

mariner

[Edited 2012-07-19 15:11:36]
aeternum nauta
 
smoot4208
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:27 am

That doesn't surprise me. SBN has been on the radar for a while now. If true, that'll leave just TOL and STS as cities that were awarded SCASD grants with the goal of getting F9 service. I'd like to see them give STS a try next summer.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:53 am

And according to one dickie bird, there'll be a new city in October. I haven't confirmed it with any other source yet, so I'll just say that it isn't too far from Chicago and has a SCASD grant attached to it.

mariner

F9 your SBN gate and ticket counter is open and ready. Also With Notre Dame Football season coming up SBN-DEN flights might up gauge on football weekends to A319's like Delta upgrades RJ flights to DTW to DC9-50s and other assorted mainline aircraft.

People in SBN are already getting antsy on the airports Facebook page but I pointed out to them that it takes close to a year to work out details such as getting Menzies Aviation in SBN with all the ground support equipment, ticket counter computers, signing contracts etc. In fact the airport said when the grant was announced that it would take till September to start service.

We used to have service to DEN on one flight a day on United back in the 70's on a B727-100 but that was really to big of and aircraft for the route except maybe on football weekends.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 13):
In fact the airport said when the grant was announced that it would take till September to start service.

September? If - stress "if" - the dickie bird is correct, it will take about a month longer.  

mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:33 am

I think the dickie bird is correct. I have friends that work as E190 and Airbus pilots and also a friend in route planning at F9. A lot has been going on behind the scenes at SBN and at F9 to make this happen. I also really feel that this can work this time even without the SCASD grant but the grant can go a long way to paying for the startup costs etc. Also look at all the advertising SBN gives Allegiant and they are SBN's most successful LCC. If one flight a day turns out better that F9 imagined then I can see them adding frequency.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:50 am

Right now seems like the perfect time for frontier to jump on the memphis package
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:25 am

From this mornings South Bend (IN) Tribune Newspaper.

SOUTH BEND - A news conference has been called for Monday to announce the addition of a new destination and new carrier at the South Bend Regional Airport.

The new destination will offer Michiana area passengers a new low-fare option when it comes to booking travel from the airport, according to a Thursday release from the airport. Officials could not be reached for additional comment.

The airport has said in the past that its top three markets it has identified are Dallas, Denver and New York.


http://www.southbendtribune.com/busi...chc-01-04-20120720,0,1528871.story
 
mcg
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:59 pm

Speaking of dickie birds, is there any chatter from the dickie birds about F9 service to MSO? There was an article in the Missoulian a few months ago suggesting that the Missoula airport was trying to figure out how to attract F9, has there been any progress??

Mariner, thanks in advance  
 
FRNT787
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 16):

Right now seems like the perfect time for frontier to jump on the memphis package

I sure hope not! I know DL is not NW, but when Frontier added one small route at MCI, DL sure took the NW form. Memphis was, and I think will be a disaster. Right now I would stick to Denver, and the small routes with no competition. I love what is happening in Knoxville and Omaha, identify a few non-Denver routes that will work. I don't want to see it at Memphis.
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point2point
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:17 pm

I started writing this yesterday, and saved it to post later maybe after proofing etc.

However, overnight, a terrible tragedy struck the area in Aurora, in the form of a senseless shooting at a movie theatre. I suppose this makes a lot of us reflect on our own situations, and what's important, and how quickly things can be unthinkably changed.

May somehow all those affected in this horror find their way forward in such manner that more damage to themselves or those important to them now can be avoided. And even though it's most likely not really enough, I suppose that we can only offer condolences, and may there be whatever support is needed.

May eventually there be peace for all.

Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 1):
I'll be interested to see how Q2 does for F9. Hopefully no more fuzzy math, write off's, and a profit is posted.

And of course, whether or not F9 is able to post a profit here will be key to its future, as well as that what may be of the entire U.S. airline industry.

If there are eventually three mega carriers in the U.S., and a couple of giant LCCs, along with a handful of other niche carriers, this may for the most part be what will evolve.

As for the niche carriers, AS and HA have their established place. NK is making its own path and seems to have an uncanny ability to shift with the winds if it needs to and prosper. After that, with F9, VX, and to an extent SY, what will be left that can be considered "major"?

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 3):
Even people in MSP most likely think of DL for their travel plans before they think of the "hometown airline" SY.

On a side note, VX is the "hometown carrier" in SFO, yet they continue to lose money...Just because an airline is based/headquartered in a city doesn't guarantee it any type of revenue premium.

If on the chance that both DL and WN really have no real interest in fares being too low at MSP, I would think that SY can can at least pull from the edges and give some fare relief to those around MSP, and maybe they can continue to sustain there. SY seems most like a vacation carrier, flying to what appears to be vacation destinations, and probably attracts the most price-sensitive. Only concern now is that NK has arrived at MSP as well.

VX has got to turn a profit soon, and start on a path to get a return on its investment. Yes, it has its niche, it has its following, but until some positive $$$$ start showing up, I can only think that at some point, its days have to be numbered. And since VX is quite new, have they built up that kind of loyalty needed in the SF area, and area quite full of activity and well diversified? But is it really enough?


Now, the big question is about F9????? They are DEN, they were born there, raised there, the name has been around just about forever in the DEN area (Frontier 1) and they are the familiar name brand in somewhat of a niche area which is quite isolated, yet an island of large, continuous activity, which is even both alluring and appealing. The Denver area in itself generates quite a high number of originating air passengers, (since driving to just about anywhere population-wise is very lengthy and timely) as well as being quite attractive on its own to be able to draw a high amount of incoming air passengers both those that are VFR and those that are not. Thus, it would be somewhat off to think that the high pax numbers at DEN are generated only because of super low fares...... yes, yields are below average, but not that far below considering.

Locals are predicting that DEN will have around 62M pax by 2020 - some 7-8 years away, and about 9M more than the pax count of nearly 53M in 2011. This is about a 1%-2% increase each year, which could quite well be doable. So the prediction is the pax will be there, some carrier(s) has(have) got to be there for this, and well enough to support three majors and then some. And if F9 can show positive cash, it will most like have a good future providing it sticks to its strength - DEN.

And finally, may there be peace for all.

  

[Edited 2012-07-20 11:28:41]
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:58 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 20):
However, overnight, a terrible tragedy struck the area in Aurora, in the form of a senseless shooting at a movie theater. I suppose this makes a lot of us reflect on our own situations, and what's important, and how quickly things can be unthinkably changed.

May somehow all those affected in this horror find their way forward in such manner that more damage to themselves or those important to them now can be avoided. And even though it's most likely not really enough, I suppose that we can only offer condolences, and may there be whatever support is needed.
F9 as Colorado's airline may want to offer one-time-only reduced bereavement fares to the affected families who are flying to Colorado or elsewhere for the funerals.

Additionally as short fuse airfares are very expensive. I wanted to add and to the families for those who were wounded in this senseless attack.

[Edited 2012-07-20 12:15:11]
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
point2point
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 21):
F9 as Colorado's airline may want to offer one-time-only reduced bereavement fares to the affected families who are flying to Colorado or elsewhere for the funerals.

Unfortunately, this obviously is a sensitive time when so many feelings are in shock and still so raw. And with that, I would think that any Colorado entity, or really most other entities, are going to find a way to offer what comfort that they can to those affected, in a spirit of common good.

And for all of the activity and history that goes on in the Denver area, yesterday's tragedy is one that could have been done without.

  
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:34 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 16):
Right now seems like the perfect time for frontier to jump on the memphis package

A million bucks may be very attractive, but I'd walk away - unless MEM can give iron clad guarantees that Delta/Northwest won't go doolally, as it did with Frontier at MEM last time, as it did with LAX-MSP and as it did with MCI-MSP.

Now, in view of rumored recent happenings, I suppose it is possible that somehow Siegel (or BB) may have smoked some sort of peace pipe with Delta, but I don't trust 'em and I cheered when I saw that Southwest is starting MCI-MSP - what goes around comes around.

Old grudges aside, I don't think that MEM is particularly attractive as a destination and I believe that Frontier can find other more interesting and less potentially volatile use of the aircraft.

mariner
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smoot4208
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:04 pm

Per OAG, MCI-MSY & MCI-LAS are being canned effective November.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 11):
As in the last thread, we know that GTF is getting good loads, and BIS as well, it seems:

As service to BIS and GTF is flown using the E90 with according to my count is 98 seats. I wonder if either city would rate a A319 at least across the Summer season. The 97% load factor is a monthly average and most likely varies daily. I have a hunch there are days which are sold out. BIS should warrant high yields until the oil boom subsides. GTF would be more seasonal.

Another option might be to offer the service more than once daily, each day of the week using the existing equipment.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
point2point
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 21):
F9 as Colorado's airline may want to offer one-time-only reduced bereavement fares to the affected families who are flying to Colorado or elsewhere for the funerals.

Additionally as short fuse airfares are very expensive. I wanted to add and to the families for those who were wounded in this senseless attack.

It seems that UA has done this, as there is another thread here....

UA Providing Free Tickets To CO Tragedy Families (by maxamuus Jul 20 2012 in Civil Aviation)


May F9, WN, and all of the other carriers at DEN do the same in this tragic time. And may other businesses find a way to make this time of those affected as easy as possible.

The area, as is probably the rest of our nation, is horribly numbed by this.

With Columbine, this is the second senseless massacre in the Denver area.

And going forward, may all the best get together, so that this sort of tragic event never happens again anywhere.

  



[Edited 2012-07-21 11:07:35]
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:06 pm

Curious, I would like to know, how is F9 doing at CID?
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 24):
Per OAG, MCI-MSY & MCI-LAS are being canned effective November.

When WN announced MCI-MSY eff 11/3, I knew the F9 service was as good as gone.
 
blhp68
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 28):
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 24):
Per OAG, MCI-MSY & MCI-LAS are being canned effective November.

When WN announced MCI-MSY eff 11/3, I knew the F9 service was as good as gone.

And so the pullback at MCI is essentially complete, with flights to DEN and DCA remaining. I believe that leaves about 7 flights per day split between the two with occasional flights to Mexico depending on the season.
 
smoot4208
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:27 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 28):
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 24):
Per OAG, MCI-MSY & MCI-LAS are being canned effective November.

When WN announced MCI-MSY eff 11/3, I knew the F9 service was as good as gone.

Neither of those routes make sense with F9's current strategy.

Quoting blhp68 (Reply 29):
And so the pullback at MCI is essentially complete, with flights to DEN and DCA remaining. I believe that leaves about 7 flights per day split between the two with occasional flights to Mexico depending on the season.

I actually think MCI-CUN/SJD/PVR/RSW probably does ok for them and will at least stick around for this upcoming winter season.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:49 pm

It seems the dickie bird was right abut SBN:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...stop-between-denver-140000586.html

"Frontier Announces Nonstop Service Between Denver and South Bend Beginning Oct. 11"

I had another very odd cheep from a dickie bird (same one) this morning. It's Apple Vacations charter, not Frontier sked, but supposedly DSM will get CUN service this winter.

It's odd because DSM doesn't have FIS (customs and immigration), so I'm told the aircraft will stop at STL on the way back.

I don't see it in any of the Apple schedules yet, though, so who knows? If it does happen, I think Frontier should apply for scheduled.  

mariner

[Edited 2012-07-23 13:55:20]
aeternum nauta
 
MSYtristar
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 30):
Neither of those routes make sense with F9's current strategy.

That is true. I'm quite sure F9 lost a boatload of money in MCI. I can't imagine YX before it did much better.

It's interesting to me that F9 can't even keep DEN-MSY year round. It gets the axe from mid August through late October, thus making Frontier the only seasonal airline in New Orleans. Very weird.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:05 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
It's odd because DSM doesn't have FIS (customs and immigration), so I'm told the aircraft will stop at STL on the way back.

I was thinking the same thing for OMA. I know several years ago, NW was rumored to start OMA-CUN if they got FIS. I wonder if F9/Apple would try OMA-CUN with the same philosophy of stopping at STL on the way back
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:47 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 23):
I don't think that MEM is particularly attractive as a destination

Did you "spend a year there one weekend"? lol

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 24):
Per OAG, MCI-MSY & MCI-LAS are being canned effective November.

No surprise.

Quoting point2point (Reply 26):
It seems that UA has done this, as there is another thread here....

UA Providing Free Tickets To CO Tragedy Families (by maxamuus Jul 20 2012 in Civil Aviation)


May F9, WN, and all of the other carriers at DEN do the same in this tragic time. And may other businesses find a way to make this time of those affected as easy as possible.

The area, as is probably the rest of our nation, is horribly numbed by this.

With Columbine, this is the second senseless massacre in the Denver area.

Terrible tragedy, but - and pardon me in saying so - I'm not sure how necessary this type of move would be for Frontier. If they did what UA is doing, I'd think it's great, but if they don't, it doesn't seem like it really will mean much in the scheme of things. Just my opinion.

Quoting blhp68 (Reply 29):
And so the pullback at MCI is essentially complete, with flights to DEN and DCA remaining. I believe that leaves about 7 flights per day split between the two with occasional flights to Mexico depending on the season.

Pretty sad. MCI isn't really set up for connections well but I always liked it geographically.

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
supposedly DSM will get CUN service this winter.

Cool.

-Dave
-Dave
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:19 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 32):
It's interesting to me that F9 can't even keep DEN-MSY year round. It gets the axe from mid August through late October, thus making Frontier the only seasonal airline in New Orleans. Very weird.

One of the Airtran CEO's once said he wished he could close the airline down altogether in September/October. I'm sympathetic.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 34):
If they did what UA is doing, I'd think it's great, but if they don't, it doesn't seem like it really will mean much in the scheme of things.

Frontier is doing some things. As on the Facebook page, they've given free tickets to the relatives of at least one of the victims, and there's this, from Daniel Shurz to the staff:

"The loss of life and injuries suffered were obviously horrific and the events directly impacted the families of at least two of our employees. We are providing support to them and we also reached out to the City of Aurora to provide support to any other families we could and in any other ways we could. We received a very appreciative response and we are glad to be part of such a cohesive community here in the Front Range, which is once again showing the world its emotional strength in trying times."

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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 34):
I'm not sure how necessary this type of move would be for Frontier. If they did what UA is doing

It sends a very strong message in the Lead, Follow or Get Out the Way mindset. With that said F9 should be commended for stepping up as a corporate citizen.
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:13 pm

From the OAG thread. F9 DEN-TYS SEP 0.6>0.2 OCT 0.6>0.1 NOV 0.6>0.2 DEC 0.6>0.0

Should the December goose egg be considered a seasonal reduction? How does this affect the TYS-MCO service. If memory serves me Orlando theme parks slow down but do remain open across the Winter months
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 35):
One of the Airtran CEO's once said he wished he could close the airline down altogether in September/October. I'm sympathetic.

I'm sympathetic to a point because I do know that September/October are slower months industry wide; however, for a small airline like F9 in which DEN routes are its bread and butter, closing up shop entirely at a station for a couple of months is not something I agree with. If you can't keep at least a minimal year round presence from a major travel destination like New Orleans to your hub, something's wrong with the way you are running the station. It's not the best strategy for continuing to build name recognition in a market or for keeping/solidifying the client base. If demand is lower for a certain period, things like reducing certain day-of-week departures should be looked at before canceling service altogether.

I got ahead of myself a bit because that won't be a problem this year since MSY will still have 4X weekly Frontier service to MCI while DEN is hibernating, but next year, I hope something can be done.  
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 37):
Should the December goose egg be considered a seasonal reduction? How does this affect the TYS-MCO service. If memory serves me Orlando theme parks slow down but do remain open across the Winter months

The TYS-MCO service is also being reduced, but not going away altogether (1x weekly I think). That route is served from MCO, so it is mostly independent in terms of resources from the DEN-TYS route. Not looking good as a future focus city though....
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 37):
Should the December goose egg be considered a seasonal reduction?

I guess so.

Last November, Frontier publicly warned that unless winter business picked up the route would go seasonal.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/ja...lles-top-business-stories-in-2011/

"The November announcement of the AirTran withdrawal, plus indications by Frontier Airlines that its Knoxville-to-Denver service might become seasonal if demand does not pick up, threw a cloud over these hopes, although a Southwest spokesman said the airline still has an interest in serving Knoxville at some point."

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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
I had another very odd cheep from a dickie bird (same one) this morning. It's Apple Vacations charter, not Frontier sked, but supposedly DSM will get CUN service this winter.

Very interesting..if true. I'm sure DSM could support 3-4x a week on an E190 November thru spring break.

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
I don't see it in any of the Apple schedules yet, though, so who knows? If it does happen, I think Frontier should apply for scheduled.  

This would also be nice. Is DSM-MCO coming back this winter? Maybe they could try DSM-PHX also before WN jumps on that route and give US a run for their money. PHX is huge out of DSM in the winter-spring break time.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 37):
From the OAG thread. F9 DEN-TYS SEP 0.6>0.2 OCT 0.6>0.1 NOV 0.6>0.2 DEC 0.6>0.0

Should the December goose egg be considered a seasonal reduction?
Quoting mariner (Reply 40):
Last November, Frontier publicly warned that unless winter business picked up the route would go seasonal.
UA has CR7s on this route, so it's not that n/s service isn't there. I suppose since UA was on this route prior to F9, and then F9 entered, probably UA dropped their fares. Now, with F9 maybe gone, UA can raise their fares again. And the DEN-TYS route has been served n/s a number of years now by UA, so I would suppose that there is some traffic there, but most likely not enough for two carriers. FAA info shows about 60 PDEW in the summer months in this market.

I think that it's quite difficult for any carrier to enter a market where there already is an entrenched carrier such as this, even if there are subsidies/guarantees, etc. All the entrenched carrier has to do is match fares for a while.


 

[Edited 2012-07-24 13:50:14]
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 42):
UA has CR7s on this route, so it's not that n/s service isn't there. I suppose since UA was on this route prior to F9, and then F9 entered, probably UA dropped their fares

That's surely true, but I think it is simpler than that.

Frontier has survived against United in several of the smaller stations (MSN and GRR, eg) and United not only matched but added service to DEN-PSP.

I don't see it in the OAG thread (I don't entirely understand how to read those threads) but dickie birds tell me Frontier's seasonal DEN-PSP is coming back a month earlier (October) than last year, which suggests survival against United.

Knoxville is a curious one - Allegiant couldn't make TYS-LAS work and it is an intensely seasonal destination for Frontier - full planes in the summer, half-empty in the winter.

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[Edited 2012-07-24 14:09:04]
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 19):
I love what is happening in Knoxville

we all do, but obviously not F9

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 37):
From the OAG thread. F9 DEN-TYS SEP 0.6>0.2 OCT 0.6>0.1 NOV 0.6>0.2 DEC 0.6>0.0
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:46 pm

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 3):
How in the World is VX the San Francisco Home Town Airline?? United has Been in SFO since 1937 and VX claims Hometown?? Cheez! There's a National Monument Hangar at SFO that can't Be torn Down to atest to United being Home town airline. VX just Happens to be based there. Frontier Just Happened to be based at Denver and you saw what Bedford did to THAT!! Had United Moved to Houston after the merger we STILL would NOT have been the Hometown Airline . all that hometown stuff is amatter of Where the Money is and the Senior Management wanted to BE UAL was in CH-11 when VX started VX thought they were going to have an opportunity to connect the Pacific Virgin Airlines with the Atlantic Virgin Airline It was a darn good thought but it hasn't worked out so hot and it isn't UAL that's dogging them. It was Alaska's Bill Ayers who has caused them Untold grief even up to causing their CEO (Don Carty) to get the AX. They'll have to grow oganicallyand Not get undue influence or authority from Rich Branson because if they DO? They're outa here!! And San Francisco couldn't do a darn thing to help them if they Did. Forget the Hometown stuff. That's NOT part of Anybody's Business plan.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 45):
It was Alaska's Bill Ayers who has caused them Untold grief even up to causing their CEO (Don Carty) to get the AX.

Don Carty was CEO at American, not Virgin America. He is Chairman of the Board at VX. The CEO that was ousted was Fred Reid and that was a complicated matter that, among other things, involved the foreign ownership issue.
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:35 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 43):
Knoxville is a curious one - Allegiant couldn't make TYS-LAS work and it is an intensely seasonal destination for Frontier - full planes in the summer, half-empty in the winter.

Interesting F9 doesn't swap TYS to the E90 during the off season. Its too bad CHA couldn't be integrated into the service somehow; possibly CHA-TYS-DEN. It would be a neat test of a market. The only service I saw between CHA-DEN is on DL via ATL.
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:17 am

Some good news for COS - at least at the airport. Here's the guts of it:

http://www.gazette.com/articles/numbers-142154-flights-passenger.html

"Frontier flights aid passenger numbers at Springs airport

New nonstop flights to four cities launched in late May by Frontier Airlines have given a healthy boost to pasenger numbers at the Colorado Springs Airport.

Traffic in May fell 0.5 percent from a year earlier to 73,098, as gains from Frontier’s new flights to Los Angeles, Phoenix, Portland and Seattle and increased passenger numbers from three of the four other airlines serving the Springs nearly offset a 12.2 percent drop in passengers on United Airlines. The Chicago-based carrier, which carries nearly half of all passengers leaving the Springs, has reduced the number of flights it operates to both Chicago and Houston on Saturday, typically the slowest day of the week for travel.

“May was a very positive month,” Shanahan said. “The response to the new flights was just fantastic and it continued into June and so far in July. We expect the strong bookings to continue and are very pleased with the response from passengers to the new flights.”


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RE: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:46 pm

Today during US Airways investor call, they announced they had made a deal with Republic to re-aquire 5 E190s with 2 going to US in the 4th quarter and the other 3 in the 1st quarter of 2013

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