User avatar
enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 6497
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:30 am

If you believe Southwest, Delta is a bunch of idiots for taking these planes when 737s save $200 million. I actually tend to think Delta was smarter than WN makes them appear. It's really relevant since WN will now compete with these planes. Lol

She said Southwest had expected to pay about $50 million to remodel them as Southwest aircraft.

Asked why the spending went up, CEO Gary Kelly said it was just part of making a deal with Delta.

Kelly said that Southwest will earn so much more money flying the bigger 737s on the same routes that "we will pay for that conversion cost in the first six months."

Wright estimated the benefit of using bigger planes at $200 million per year once all 88 have gone to Delta.




http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-...ay-100m-to-fix-up-planes-for-delta
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:36 am

It's a win win. DL can probably make more money with these 717s than WN could... leases are being renegotiated and the use will be different. I don't think DL or WN's management team is stupid... prone to mistakes, but not flat out stupid
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:38 am

Different business models. Need for different plaines.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
peanuts
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:47 am

Ok...so is WN receiving 88 B737's by 2015 to replace 1 for 1 B717 flying???

Otherwise this explanation is just a bit strange/self serving to me...
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:50 am

I hope DL is catering lunch to WN at least monthly. This merger is like a dream come true for them.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Kelly said that Southwest will earn so much more money flying the bigger 737s on the same routes that "we will pay for that conversion cost in the first six months."

That sounds swell. I wonder how many of the 717 routes will exist in 2 or 3 years, compared to pre-merger. We all know ATL will look very different once the FL network is destroyed...errrr reorganized.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5458
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:13 am

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
If you believe Southwest, Delta is a bunch of idiots for taking these planes when 737s save $200 million. I actually tend to think Delta was smarter than WN makes them appear. It's really relevant since WN will now compete with these planes. Lol

I suppose the question is how directly these aircraft will compete with WN -- or will they go into a lot of markets that now see the CR7/CR9/E170/E175 from DL? My thought is that DL already uses mainline aircraft like the 757/738/M88/M90/A319/A320 in most ATL markets where AirTran flies -- so WN will end up competing in ATL using more efficient (compared to the 717) 73G's & 738's.

When their 73G's first entered the fleet, I recall FL management saying how pleased they were with the 73G since they essentially gained 15-20 seats for free with trip costs comparable to the 717. That's essentially what WN management has argued as well. It seems obvious to me that eating $100 million to reconfigure the 717's for DL is a lot cheaper than terminating the leases early.

It's obviously good for DL, but more because the pilots will accept more large RJ's in exchange for the expanded mainline fleet -- and the larger RJ's and 717's are far, far more efficient than the enormous CR2 fleet DL currently deploys as DL Connection.

So it really does seem like a win for both parties -- WN gets rid of aircraft they didn't want to keep and DL replaces relatively inefficient aircraft with modern aircraft at a modest cost. The DL guys did a good job of negotiating to get WN to eat the conversion costs -- but it's only $50 million net more than WN would have spent on the conversion anyway. And WN seems to think they make it back in operating efficiencies in the first year.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:23 am

Don't forget, WN is all coach, DL has F... that can help increase the revenue for the 717s
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 2164
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:39 am

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Kelly said that Southwest will earn so much more money flying the bigger 737s on the same routes that "we will pay for that conversion cost in the first six months."

Then why did it take so long for WN to order 738s if the 73G has more seats than the 717 for roughly the same trip cost??

Does WN think there's something magic about 137 seats and that more than 137 have never been needed until they ordered the 738??
Routes are about frequency, seats and yield. WN could have made money with the 717 with lower ownership cost. WN could have bumped up load factor, frequency or yield to make the 717s work. It just seems to me that WN is too locked into their own formula and unwilling to think anything else can work. Get flexible WN!

As for DL, they seem to be the king of used aircraft which may have maintenance and/or fuel cost bite them in the long run. The 717 may be a good move, but it means 176 50 seat RJs will go away and I'd guess mainline pilots will fly the 717. Does DL think halving frequency on RJ markets makes sense?

Is the 717 maintenance-common with the MD90?
sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/
 
jporterfi
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:25 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:54 am

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Kelly said that Southwest will earn so much more money flying the bigger 737s on the same routes that "we will pay for that conversion cost in the first six months."

Wright estimated the benefit of using bigger planes at $200 million per year once all 88 have gone to Delta.

You can't argue with this. I'm glad both DL and WN were happy with the deal and that came about without too much negotiating. Now I'll have 4 similar-looking aircraft to try to tell apart: all operated by DL!
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:55 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 7):
As for DL, they seem to be the king of used aircraft which may have maintenance and/or fuel cost bite them in the long run.

Much of the NW management is now with DL, and they seemed to be the best at running aircraft into the ground. Sometimes low ownership costs outweigh fuel, even when fuel is really high. Don't forget, DL is also getting newer aircraft, they have 739s on order and I expect them to order the MAX and/or NEO in the next few years

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 7):
Does DL think halving frequency on RJ markets makes sense?

Considering how inefficient 50 seaters are, I'd say yes. I know frequency plays a big role, but what good is frequency if you're not making money on the route anyway?
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
billreid
Posts: 737
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:59 am

I love statements from Kelly!
He has a reason for everything..... If the B717's were so bad then why did he purchase FL?

Seams to be a huge contradiction, originally to serve markets more suited to 115 seat aircraft. Now he is backing himself into a corner that a freshman in Journalism 101 could see through.
First he said "With our merger application to the DOJ we can serve many cities that were too small for high density B737's."
Now he says "We can serve cities better with B737 capacity than with those B717 RJ's."

He closed 15 cities so whats up, which is it?
Was it he lied to the DOJ or was he too stupid to do due diligence on FL assets and routes before making the acquisition?

Either way seams like a CYA that the average eighth grader would have figured out.
If it doesn't work I don't want to spend my savings on it.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
Okie
Posts: 3555
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:01 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 7):
Is the 717 maintenance-common with the MD90?

The 717 was marketed as the MD-95 before Boeing re-marketed it as the 717.
Much more glass up front than a DC-9 but would guess there is a lot of similar systems but not necessarily the same parts.

As far as pilots are concerned I would suspect only a short familiarisation course for someone already with the DC9 on their license.

Okie
 
qf340500
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:22 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:11 am

I can't believe it that an airline 1.) still flies these fuel guzzeling dogs and 2.) pays money to upgrade them!

My god, and here in asia we think 737s are inefficient and fuel guzzlers...
 
N766UA
Posts: 7843
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:17 am

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 12):

I can't believe it that an airline 1.) still flies these fuel guzzeling dogs and 2.) pays money to upgrade them!

717's are some of the most fuel efficient jets on the planet...
This Website Censors Me
 
qf340500
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:22 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:21 am

N776UA, how can that be??? its an airframe which is, what, 40 years old (exaggerating a little here maybe...)?

Happy to learn, always!
 
michman
Posts: 615
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:51 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):
717's are some of the most fuel efficient jets on the planet...

Airtran reported that they were 24% more efficient than the DC9's they replaced and actually more efficient than they were expecting -- http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2000/news_release_001012a.html
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 14):

N776UA, how can that be??? its an airframe which is, what, 40 years old (exaggerating a little here maybe...)?

And one heck of an airframe indeed to still be viable after so long. Same for the 737. The 717 is based on the D93, but has aerodynamic improvements (tailcone, vertical stabilizer, etc.,) , can fly a more efficient profile, and has more efficient engines.

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 12):
My god, and here in asia we think 737s are inefficient and fuel guzzlers...

What's considered an efficient narrow-body over there?

Quoting okie (Reply 11):
As far as pilots are concerned I would suspect only a short familiarisation course for someone already with the DC9 on their license.

Someone hit me over the head if I'm wrong, but I think a DC9 pilot would only have to take a "differences" course.. much like a CR2 pilot moving to a CR7 or 9.

Quoting billreid (Reply 10):
I love statements from Kelly!
He has a reason for everything..... If the B717's were so bad then why did he purchase FL?

Seams to be a huge contradiction, originally to serve markets more suited to 115 seat aircraft. Now he is backing himself into a corner that a freshman in Journalism 101 could see through.
First he said "With our merger application to the DOJ we can serve many cities that were too small for high density B737's."
Now he says "We can serve cities better with B737 capacity than with those B717 RJ's."

He closed 15 cities so whats up, which is it?
Was it he lied to the DOJ or was he too stupid to do due diligence on FL assets and routes before making the acquisition?

Things that make you go " hmmmmmm?". Relevant questions.
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2128
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 14):

The 717 (originally named the MD95) uses the RR BR-715 engines which are very efficient, developed in the 1990s. Similar in efficiency to the A320 and the 737NGs.

The larger and older sister aircraft MD-90 uses the same IAE V2500 engines as the A320.

Fuel efficiency is all about the engines, as we can see by the Neo/max

Aluminum tubes don't have much in aerodynamic differences, especially in short haul.
 
airindia787
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 8:01 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:44 am

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 14):
N776UA, how can that be??? its an airframe which is, what, 40 years old (exaggerating a little here maybe...)?

You are confusing the 717 with the DC-9. The oldest 717s are around 13 years old, with the youngest being only 6 years old.
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:49 am

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 12):
My god, and here in asia we think 737s are inefficient and fuel guzzlers...

So, what do you have that is better, narrowbody wise? Please don't tell me the A320 family, because from what I gather on here, their fuel efficiency is only equal to the MD-90 or 717.

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 14):
N776UA, how can that be??? its an airframe which is, what, 40 years old (exaggerating a little here maybe...)?

The design is 47+ years old, but they've been sufficiently modernized to make that a moot point......at least the MD-90 and 717.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
and they seemed to be the best at running aircraft into the ground.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, DL was doing this LONG before the merger with NW. Nothing new for them. DL didn't get their 1st 737s until the mid 80's........their first 727s until the 70s with the merger with Northeast........we kept the 727s until the early 2000s, the Tristars stayed around for almost 30 years (using a/c from AC, EA & PA (via UA)). I think DL has had plenty of practice doing this.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
qf340500
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:22 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:56 am

Sorry, seems like i have mixed up my perception with the MD's then...

Thanks guys for the help!
 
pictues
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:41 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:06 am

the air frame design may be 40 years old but even the dc-9-30's were relatively fuel efficient up to the mid 2000's. The B717 has new engines, new computer systems.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11866
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:08 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 7):
Does DL think halving frequency on RJ markets makes sense?

DL has no choice but to cut unprofitable 50 seat flying.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 16):
What's considered an efficient narrow-body over there?


From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebuchet


Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4114
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:53 am

LMAO Lightsaber. That made me chuckle. Of course you know they have a high density seating for those over there for 30-40 pax a time.

Quoting billreid (Reply 10):
He has a reason for everything..... If the B717's were so bad then why did he purchase FL?

Umm, Atlanta? One less low fare competitor. International access. Several dozen 737s.

Quoting billreid (Reply 10):
Seams to be a huge contradiction, originally to serve markets more suited to 115 seat aircraft. Now he is backing himself into a corner that a freshman in Journalism 101 could see through.
First he said "With our merger application to the DOJ we can serve many cities that were too small for high density B737's."
Now he says "We can serve cities better with B737 capacity than with those B717 RJ's."

Perhaps it would have been better to say high frequency 737s. Since it is apparent the biggest change is not launching new markets with the one traditional 10-12 daily nonstops.

Quoting billreid (Reply 10):
He closed 15 cities so whats up, which is it?
Was it he lied to the DOJ or was he too stupid to do due diligence on FL assets and routes before making the acquisition?

Bleh, this part really doesn't deserve a response since your feelings towards WN are well documents in your past trolling of WN threads.

Quoting billreid (Reply 10):
Either way seams like a CYA that the average eighth grader would have figured out.
If it doesn't work I don't want to spend my savings on it.

So you are actually invested in WN? Which probably would be smart with the airline posting a record Q2.  
 
woodsboy
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 5:59 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:00 am

UUgh, lets not confuse the fact that while the 717 looks similar to the DC-9-30 it does not share that much with it other than shape. Just like the 737NG or MAX for that matter share much of anything with the 737 100/200/300...etc. Yeah, they have the same cross section, nose......but everything else evolved. With the evolution of the DC-9 to MD-80 to MD-90 perhaps what evolved the least was the wing and while it was improved it was never completely replaced like the wing(s) of the successive generations of 737s. At any rate, the difference between the DC-9 of any version and the 717 is just about everything. Completely new avionics, engines, fuel systems, interior materials, lighter modern materials from the fuselage to the floors, gear doors, tail and vert stab assemblies, tail cones, nose cone, I could go on. The 717, mechanically is only vaguely genetically related to the 1960s technology of the DC-9. MDC kept what made sense to keep and improved or replaced everything else. The MD-90 was perhaps less of a leap past the MD-80 than was the 717 from the DC-9 but still the MD-90 was stretched, re-engined and improved incrementally in the department of avionics. It turned out that DL, which was to be the MD-90s largest and launch customer wanted the flight deck to be common to the MD-88 and thusly it did not receive the 717/MD-11 style flight deck layout. Of course, DL took only 16 of the original order they placed for 100 (or thereabouts). I imagine that if DL had not been instrumental in pushing MDC to make the flightdeck the same as the MD-88, all MD-90s would have gotten the Saudi MD-90 cockpit. Now almost all of the worlds MD-90s will probably end up at DL and who knows, maybe we will see a flight deck upgrade to what they should have had all along!!
 
JONC777
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:41 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:11 am

GK is a bean counter. . . in this case im going to trust he has counted them. . . WN says that it basically costs the same to operate a 737-700 as a 717 so in a high cost fuel environment it makes sense to operate a plane with 143 seats vrs 117.

Quoting michman (Reply 15):

this may be. . . but this doesnt address the operating cost issues between a 737-700 and a 717 and only discusses pure fuel consumption


The $100 mln cost may be high. . . .but it can easliy be absorbed in one qtr, and then everyone can move on. . .

I don't think anyone was had, and I dont think anyone made a 'dumb' decision. In addition, a gate swap deal at ATL was part of this, DL will give up there half of the C gates and move those to D and WN will get to run almost entirly out of the C gates plus I think 1 gate or 2 (not sure how many fl has) at the international termnal. From what ive heard after all is said and done the C gates will have 28 gates sized for -800s
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2128
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:32 am

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 25):

I have not seen any news releases of a gate swap agreement in ATL for DL and WN.

Do you have a link?
 
JONC777
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:41 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:57 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 26):

this is not published. . . .but not exactly privilidged information either. . .
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2128
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:29 am

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 27):

Is there any source, or is this a rumor?

I have seen one or two a.netters that theorized that a gate swap might happen, but I have not seen it from anyone claiming to have inside knowledge.

[Edited 2012-07-20 04:32:49]
 
JONC777
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:41 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:58 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 28):

lol . . .loosely insider, no more than hearing people talk. . . but . . .the right people. . .but no. . . no quotable sourse. . .I'd say this has a higher likelyhood of happening than say other stuff ive heard in the past. . . id put money on it. . .
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 1751
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting billreid (Reply 10):
I love statements from Kelly!
He has a reason for everything..... If the B717's were so bad then why did he purchase FL?
Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 23):
Umm, Atlanta? One less low fare competitor. International access. Several dozen 737s.

Along with the above, buying FL gave WN more acess to hard to come by LGA slots. 07/12/12 is when the slot shuffle will begin and then progressively more after that. The 717 was the comprise WN had to take to get the cake they wanted.
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:33 pm

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 29):

lol . . .loosely insider, no more than hearing people talk. . . but . . .the right people. . .but no. . . no quotable sourse. . .I'd say this has a higher likelyhood of happening than say other stuff ive heard in the past. . . id put money on it. . .

Lets just be sure, since this hasn't been released by DL, that this isn't proprietary information. I'm sure you know the rules  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 1680
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
DL can probably make more money with these 717s than WN could

That does not say anything positive about WN
 
United1
Posts: 2879
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 25):
I don't think anyone was had, and I dont think anyone made a 'dumb' decision. In addition, a gate swap deal at ATL was part of this, DL will give up there half of the C gates and move those to D and WN will get to run almost entirly out of the C gates plus I think 1 gate or 2 (not sure how many fl has) at the international termnal. From what ive heard after all is said and done the C gates will have 28 gates sized for -800s

I think it would make more sense the other way around....DL with all of C (current regional gates plus a bunch of new gates that are already sized for the 717. WN in D....as they have to resize the gates for 737/8's anyway.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
mli717fan
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:30 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:31 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 5):
When their 73G's first entered the fleet, I recall FL management saying how pleased they were with the 73G since they essentially gained 15-20 seats for free with trip costs comparable to the 717. That's essentially what WN management has argued as well. It seems obvious to me that eating $100 million to reconfigure the 717's for DL is a lot cheaper than terminating the leases early.

When FL had the JetConnect flying by Air Wisconsin, they also said that the cost of running a CRJ was similar to that of running a 717. I doubt CRJ = B712 = B73G. It's all a matter of perspective.

WN is a 737 airline, DL has a mixed fleet. They have different philosophies, and DL saw a benefit of adding the B712s, instead of adding more 73Gs to their 739 order.
 
User avatar
enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 6497
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
It's a win win. DL can probably make more money with these 717s than WN could... leases are being renegotiated and the use will be different. I don't think DL or WN's management team is stupid... prone to mistakes, but not flat out stupid
Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 2):
Different business models. Need for different plaines.
Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 4):
That sounds swell. I wonder how many of the 717 routes will exist in 2 or 3 years, compared to pre-merger. We all know ATL will look very different once the FL network is destroyed...errrr reorganized.
Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 7):
Then why did it take so long for WN to order 738s if the 73G has more seats than the 717 for roughly the same trip cost??

Here's my overall problem with WN's decision. They are saying they are going to take apart the AirTran bank structure at Atlanta. It's not going to be a "hub" any more. That means a huge loss of connecting traffic. If you couple that with replacing AirTran's planes with airplanes that have 20+ more seats AND they also raise fares from AirTran levels (which they have said they will do) while eliminating bag fees...it seems like a formula for disaster. Bigger planes, higher fares=less demand, elimination of bag fees which WN has admitted is net negative for the FL network, and no connecting structure. What a trainwreck is coming.
 
JONC777
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:41 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 35):

I dunno, but the supposed mis management you see going on at WN resulted in a $275mln 2Q profit. . . .
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 7):
It just seems to me that WN is too locked into their own formula and unwilling to think anything else can work. Get flexible WN!

Some will argue that they are innovative and dynamic and changing and adapting, but at the end of the day you're right.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 32):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
DL can probably make more money with these 717s than WN could

That does not say anything positive about WN

It's not anything personal; just a difference in business strategies. WN isn't feeding any international flights, selling any business or first class, etc etc. DL has much more lucrative revenue streams available to them than WN does, or has any intention to.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):


From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebuchet

*laugh out loud*
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 14022
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:41 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 32):
That does not say anything positive about WN

Or negative either... just different... DL's business model revolves around using smaller planes to bring people to hubs to put them onto larger planes, with extra amenities for those who pay more, and options for international travel... WN's business model revolves around same gauge one class airplanes hopping point-to-point around the US...
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
PanAm788
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:43 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:41 pm

Really funny that no one has asked what the $100 Million upgrades include. New seats and GoGo? I doubt that they're putting in AVOD.
You know nothing Jon Snow
 
KDAYflyer
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:37 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 11):
The 717 was marketed as the MD-95 before Boeing re-marketed it as the 717.
Much more glass up front than a DC-9 but would guess there is a lot of similar systems but not necessarily the same parts.

Actually the 717 is a DC-9 30 fuselage, 9-40 wing and MD 87 tail with BMW/RR engines. Quite the almagamation of parts.
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 39):
Really funny that no one has asked what the $100 Million upgrades include. New seats and GoGo? I doubt that they're putting in AVOD.

According to the AJC,

"Delta said it will have new seats installed on the planes, along with a full first class cabin, in-flight power, new galleys and other improvements throughout the 717s."


http://www.ajc.com/business/southwest-paying-to-convert-1481200.html


I also read somewhere that WN is paying to have the a/c painted in DL colors.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
AADC10
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
If you believe Southwest, Delta is a bunch of idiots for taking these planes when 737s save $200 million

Of course that is what they said. It was a business statement where the company always need to say that they got the better end of the deal. They need to justify the transaction and reject the calls for WN to diversify its fleet.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 7):
Does WN think there's something magic about 137 seats and that more than 137 have never been needed until they ordered the 738??

Well there is a magic number at 151 where they would need an additional flight attendant. The FAA minimum is 1 flight attendant for every 50 passengers. B6 famously reduced the number of seats in the A320 to 150 so they could operate with one less flight attendant. To a lesser extent, it also helps B6 get off the ground on BUR-JFK.
 
cubastar
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:48 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 39):
Really funny that no one has asked what the $100 Million upgrades include. New seats and GoGo?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that there is an AD out on the 717 from Boeing involving the fix of a crack problem in the fuselage of the aircraft. I don't think that it a "big" thing but it will involve some work and of course, some money. Perhaps, WN is going to fix them prior to turnover to Delta.

Then again, Delta probably has more "hands on" experience on Douglas products at their Technical Operations Center in ATL than any other airline. They are already very familiar with previous "fixes" on the DC-9's and the subsequent models and they might do the required fixes themselves.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 4721
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 19):

So, what do you have that is better, narrowbody wise? Please don't tell me the A320 family, because from what I gather on here, their fuel efficiency is only equal to the MD-90 or 717.

few things, It is kind of hard to compare the 717 to a A32S because of the seat difference. 717 vs the A318, the 717 blows the A318 (and 736) right out of the water. A320s will be more efficient when full due to higher seat count(thus lower cost per seat.) On the engine side, the BR715 and V2500 are pretty close in numbers. CFM56 tend to burn a little less fuel(but the V2500 is a beast with hot and high)
So anyways, normally the M90/320 are close, edge going to the A320 and the 737NG is a little bit better than the A320.

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 25):
I don't think anyone was had, and I dont think anyone made a 'dumb' decision. In addition, a gate swap deal at ATL was part of this, DL will give up there half of the C gates and move those to D and WN will get to run almost entirly out of the C gates plus I think 1 gate or 2 (not sure how many fl has) at the international termnal. From what ive heard after all is said and done the C gates will have 28 gates sized for -800s

So Delta is going to give up gates? (as in end up with less gates than what they have now?)

sorry, calling bs on this (and 737s going to WN, And JFK slots, DCA slots, LGA slots, LAX gates for US to move from T1, New Dallas hub, giving up bays at TechOps for WN to use and pretty much any other crazy rumor that seems to run from this deal) Delta dumping its C gates for FL's D gates will not net them anywhere close to the same amount of gates.

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 27):

Please don't tell me this a employee rumors. I may beat my head against the wall.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 1680
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:13 pm

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 37):
It's not anything personal; just a difference in business strategies. WN isn't feeding any international flights, selling any business or first class, etc etc. DL has much more lucrative revenue streams available to them than WN does, or has any intention to.

What it says is WN cant make money with a 120 seat plane, while DL can. WN's costs are making the company uncompetitive.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 45):
What it says is WN cant make money with a 120 seat plane, while DL can.

I'm sure they could but it doesn't fit in their business plan as well as it does for DL

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 45):
WN's costs are making the company uncompetitive.

Well I agree that costs are rising, and I'm sure it has the attention of everyone at WN, but they just released a healthy quarterly profit... they're doing just fine. That could change, yes, but they have plenty of time to correct their rising costs
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 6692
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 7):
Then why did it take so long for WN to order 738s if the 73G has more seats than the 717 for roughly the same trip cost??

Does WN think there's something magic about 137 seats and that more than 137 have never been needed until they ordered the 738??

The 700 has more seats it is at the heart of the comment.
As for the 73G, the 137 seat limit means no additional F/A, introducing that a/c adds increased cost, no doubt they are doing it as they bought the G but it is being done on a small scale first and they are using the limitation of slots at restricted airport as the additional financial incentive to push them onto the larger a/c.
Do we question that the 137 seat limitation and all 737 fleet has aided their development and profitability?
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 44):

Please don't tell me this a employee rumors. I may beat my head against the wall.

The number for "rumor control" in ATL is 404-555-****  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
User avatar
enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 6497
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL

Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:28 pm

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 36):
Quoting enilria (Reply 35):

I dunno, but the supposed mis management you see going on at WN resulted in a $275mln 2Q profit. .

These chicken haven't come home to roost. They have not done anything of consequence despite two years to prepare. Air Tran still has bag fees, the code share has no implementation date, the 717s don't leave for a year...The whole strategy is delay if you fail. They did admit in the call that AirTran had an operating loss. At least, that's what I heard during the Q+A. That's because they raised it labor costs, stripped it of its best routes, and given it a bunch of junk routes like SNA-MEX.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 45):
What it says is WN cant make money with a 120 seat plane, while DL can. WN's costs are making the company uncompetitive.

It might say that. WN's costs are out of control. I still don't understand why they bought FL. They were asked point blank if there was anything they had gained philosophically from AirTran. All Kelly could say was "they do their dispatch process differently than we do ours, but changing our process is really difficult because we value safety above everything else". WTF? That's all they've got? They *could* have changed to an apparently better dispatch (weight and balance) process, but didn't. Wow...

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AC_B777, aerlingus747, alski, anstar, bayer328, Bing [Bot], dubaiamman243, eadc8, FLJ, mjoelnir, Moosfliege, Qatara340, qf002, sas767, seahawk, spacecookie, Summa767 and 202 guests