KLAXAirport
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HA To Canada?

Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:32 pm

Would HA ever consider Canada? I'm sure HA could compete with WJ on a YVR-HNL route. What do you guys think?

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longhauler
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RE: HA To Canada?

Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:36 pm

A lot of American carriers have tried to compete against, AC, CP and WS on the Hawaii - Canada routes. They never seem to last long. Western Airlines seemed to last the longest, many years ago.
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northstardc4m
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RE: HA To Canada?

Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:43 pm

AC, WS both fly the route scheduled.
"charter" operators from Canada have shown up from time to time as well.
Western held on for many years, the route was shut down in the early 80s.

Non-US, Non-CDN carriers have flown the route over the years as well, QANTAS and Air Pacific spring to mind.

HA might be able to make a go of it, but there are probably better uses of their limited fleet.

Its just not a high yielding route. Fewer and fewer Canadians are going to the US for vacations these days.
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SANFan
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RE: HA To Canada?

Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:07 pm

I think AQ was the most recent U.S.-carrier attempt at YVR-HNL and I believe their experiment lasted a couple of years somewhere around the 2004-7 time frame.

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 2):
HA might be able to make a go of it, but there are probably better uses of their limited fleet.

   I would actually expect AS might be more likely to give YVR-HI a try than HA.

bb
 
ba777-236
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RE: HA To Canada?

Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:18 pm

I keep hearing rumors from different folks about Hawaiian doing an HNL-YYZ route.

Now to me, that would be great as there's currently no direct routing between Toronto and Hawaii. But I somehow doubt they can fill an A330 on the route? Maybe seasonal??
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PHX787
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RE: HA To Canada?

Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 2):
HA might be able to make a go of it, but there are probably better uses of their limited fleet.

IMO I see YVR and YYZ being profitable routs for HA. But you're right, not until they get more planes.
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GentFromAlaska
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RE: HA To Canada?

Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:48 pm

Because the Hawaiian Islands are commonly understood to be where East meets West YVR might work with Vancouver's significant Asian population. HA would have to be concerned YVR-Hawaii may bastardize their SEA and potentially their PDX service.

On the cruise side SEA has surpassed YVR as the embarkation point for Alaska cruises across the last five or so years.

It would be neat to see HA compete with AS on the BLI-HNL route. The Alaska Marine Highway (AMHS) state ferry main terminal is located in Bellingham. AMHS voyages are becoming more and more popular with Asian tourism because they allow passengers to disembark and spend as much time in a port and thereafter connect to the next ferry which sails through. A cruise ship is on a dedicated schedule and will spend 8-12 hours in a port. Additionally the ferries will always stop or slow down for whales and other marine critters; 30-60 minutes is not uncommon. A cruise ship is on a dedicated schedule.

[Edited 2012-07-20 12:05:58]
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KLAXAirport
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RE: HA To Canada?

Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 4):

Toronto has the Carribean just 3+ Hrs away. Although I know people in Toronto that want to visit Hawaii it doesnt seem like it would be a popular and profitable market.

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drgmobile
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RE: HA To Canada?

Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:21 pm

Lots of competition. You can't just consider service into YVR. There's also Bellingham serving the BC market and Allegiant and Alaska are hashing it out there. So four carriers already in the market....
 
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RWA380
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:15 am

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 4):
I keep hearing rumors from different folks about Hawaiian doing an HNL-YYZ route.

Now to me, that would be great as there's currently no direct routing between Toronto and Hawaii. But I somehow doubt they can fill an A330 on the route? Maybe seasonal??

CP used to fly this route as a SYD-HNL-YYZ flight on DC-10-30's then 763's, most of the tickets we sold on CP out of Hawaii were for European connections, I don't expect there is enough O/D to support a daily A330 to YYZ on either side, if there were, I'd expect AC would be flying YYZ-HNL n/s by now.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 4):
I keep hearing rumors from different folks about Hawaiian doing an HNL-YYZ route.

I doubt it will happen.

In fact, i doubt HA will keep their service to JFK for long, let alone start the likes of YYZ or MIA (as has been discussed on another thread). The length of the sector involved is a major drawback and would need a healthy premium demand to make it work.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 9):
I'd expect AC would be flying YYZ-HNL n/s by now.

Exaclty, and the fact that they aren't is proof enough that there is better use out there for their 763s or A333s.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-07-21 06:13:15]
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yegbey01
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:07 pm

If they price airfares to Canada similar to US pricing, they will fill their planes with no issue.

Why wouldn't they be able to fill their planes out of YYC or YEG in the middle of the winter?

But ultimately, it will come down to price. Time and again, Canadian travelers have to pay way more for travel than pax in the US.

They could easily do 3X to YEG and 4X to YYC all winter long. With HA offering onward connections to many parts of Asia, how about a stop over fare in HNL.

There's no reason why HA could not build a huge hub and capitalize on a stop over strategy - which would attract a lot of pax.
 
B4REAL
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting KLAXAirport (Reply 7):
Toronto has the Carribean just 3+ Hrs away.

That's true, but Hawaii and Caribbean are not the equivalent destinations.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
Hawaiian763
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 11):
Why wouldn't they be able to fill their planes out of YYC or YEG in the middle of the winter?

They might be able to, but they would be competing against AC and WS. Maybe if HA did 3 or 4 flights a week during the winter season they would do just fine. I also think it has something to do with all the taxes and fees we have in Canada that makes HA less likely to fly here.
 
bobnwa
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 4):
Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 4):
keep hearing rumors from different folks about Hawaiian doing an HNL-YYZ route

Do any of these different folks have any connection to the airline industry that would make their comments credible?
 
brilondon
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 4):

I keep hearing rumors from different folks about Hawaiian doing an HNL-YYZ route.

Now to me, that would be great as there's currently no direct routing between Toronto and Hawaii. But I somehow doubt they can fill an A330 on the route? Maybe seasonal??
Quoting ] Hawaii and Caribbean are not the equivalent destinations.[/quote]

[quote=bobnwa
(Reply 14):


Do any of these different folks have any connection to the airline industry that would make their comments credible?

I know that if AC can't make a go of it then I doubt if WS could. AC inherited the route to HNL from YYZ did not make money for them or they would have kept the route up. WS do not have the equipment that could make the10 hour westbound flight. That is one reason that AC didn't make money on that route. With BUF being so close to YYZ and about 30% less expensive, I would think that both WS and AC would pass on this run.

As has been discussed on this site as well, HNL is not a premium destination but more of a "cheapest flight or award miles" type of destination.
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Viscount724
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:27 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 9):
Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 4):
I keep hearing rumors from different folks about Hawaiian doing an HNL-YYZ route.

Now to me, that would be great as there's currently no direct routing between Toronto and Hawaii. But I somehow doubt they can fill an A330 on the route? Maybe seasonal??

CP used to fly this route as a SYD-HNL-YYZ flight on DC-10-30's then 763's, most of the tickets we sold on CP out of Hawaii were for European connections, I don't expect there is enough O/D to support a daily A330 to YYZ on either side, if there were, I'd expect AC would be flying YYZ-HNL n/s by now.

CP operated YYZ-HNL nonstops off and on starting with DC-8s in the mid-1960s. It was never profitable even when HNL was a stop en route to/from SYD. The O&D YYZ-Hawaii market is just too small. Few people want to sit on an aircraft for 9 hours to get to a beach when Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean are 3 hours away.

QF also briefly operated SYD-HNL-YYZ with 5th freedom rights HNL-YYZ sometime in the late 1990s or thereabouts using 763s a couple of times a week. It only lasted a few months.

And as far as YVR is concerned, 4 U.S. carriers (Western, Continental, Aloha and American Samoa-based South Pacific Island Airways that operated 707s YVR-HNL for a couple of years in the 1980s until they went bust). None lasted very long.

QF, NZ and FJ have also operated YVR-HNL 5th freedom service in the past.
 
yvphx
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:25 am

Would it even be possible for a 763 or 332 to fly from BLI-HNL? BLI's runway is 6700 feet. I think the folks in and around bellingham would love to have another Hawaiian carrier for competition of prices and times. Seems like a viable option provided the aircraft could land/t.o. on that short of a runway!
 
Viscount724
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting yvphx (Reply 17):
Would it even be possible for a 763 or 332 to fly from BLI-HNL?

Boeing's aircraft performance charts indicate that a 763 with a full passenger and baggage load (but no cargo) has a range of close to 4,000 nm from a 6,700 ft. runway at sea level (BLI is only 170 ft. above sea level). BLI-HNL is only 2,360 nm.
 
hnl-jack
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:15 am

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 14):
keep hearing rumors from different folks about Hawaiian doing an HNL-YYZ route

Highly unlikely. HA still has bigger fish to fry in the Pacific and the U.S.
 
yegbey01
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 13):
They might be able to, but they would be competing against AC and WS. Maybe if HA did 3 or 4 flights a week during the winter season they would do just fine. I also think it has something to do with all the taxes and fees we have in Canada that makes HA less likely to fly here.

I don't think Canada's taxes are way more complicated that those of New Zealand or Japan, etc.....
 
ba777-236
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:28 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 14):
Do any of these different folks have any connection to the airline industry that would make their comments credible?

Indeed they do... Both work in the industry with one having connections with the GTAA (operator of YYZ).

I'm not talking about daily or even all year service, but maybe winter, a few times a week.
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Whiteguy
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:16 pm

"Indeed they do... Both work in the industry with one having connections with the GTAA (operator of YYZ)."

Sorry but having connections to the GTAA doesn't mean it's going happen. Your connection may have access to the GTAAs wish list but that's about it. The Calgary airport authority also thinks the A380 will magically arrive when the runaway is longer to.......
 
brilondon
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 21):
Indeed they do... Both work in the industry with one having connections with the GTAA (operator of YYZ).

Yeah, well that has as much credibility as a pilot for an airline knowing the future plans of the airline.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
abrelosojos
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RE: HA To Canada?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
The O&D YYZ-Hawaii market is just too small. Few people want to sit on an aircraft for 9 hours to get to a beach when Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean are 3 hours away.

= Exactly ... and I would add that very few people are willing to pay a premium to go nonstop from YYZ when there are so many 1-stop connections via Canada and the U.S.

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RWA380
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RE: HA To Canada?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:54 am

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 11):
There's no reason why HA could not build a huge hub and capitalize on a stop over strategy - which would attract a lot of pax

A "stopover" program has been offered many times by airlines involving Hawaii, WA used to offer a $99.00 HNL stopover charge travelling between LAX and ANC. Yep routing LAX-HNL-ANC with a stop was $99.00 more than the regular fare flying LAX-SEA-ANC on a 72S, what would you do?

Quoting yvphx (Reply 17):
Would it even be possible for a 763 or 332 to fly from BLI-HNL? BLI's runway is 6700 feet. I think the folks in and around bellingham would love to have another Hawaiian carrier for competition of prices and times. Seems like a viable option provided the aircraft could land/t.o. on that short of a runway!

Yes a 763 could fly the route, but is not going to happen. Just because a 738 to HNL 1x daily works, does not mean the market can bear a 3 times weekly 757 to OGG plus a 738 4x weekly to OGG, plus a daily 738 to HNL and a 763. This market is finite and not going to attract every person flying to Hawaii from BC.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
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c172akula
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RE: HA To Canada?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 22):
The Calgary airport authority also thinks the A380 will magically arrive when the runaway is longer to.......

Where has the CAA actually said this? The closest you get is any of the information about the parallel runway and new terminal being able to handle the A388 and 748, but it is a stretch to take that statement and assume that they assume the A388 will magically show up because of the runway. Perhaps the media has taken the design statement and ran with it to assume A388 service once it is operational, but then your beef would lie with the media.

The airport has needed a parallel runway for a long time, you can argue about the size & length of it but the runway itself is needed.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: HA To Canada?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:15 pm

Sure maybe it is the media spinning it more the the CAA but they do a good job of bringing it up in every interview I've seen. The current terminal and runway can handle the B748, not sure about the A380. It's the same as CAA saying they hope for direct service to Asia once the new runway is built yet ignore the fact that AC is currently flying direct service to Asia.

As for the new runway, I know it's needed in YYC. I fly in and out of YYC everyday dealing with holds, flow times, and RAPT times!
 
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c172akula
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RE: HA To Canada?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:11 pm

The CAA should just say the new runway can handle the A225.  
 
yegbey01
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RE: HA To Canada?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 25):
Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 11):
There's no reason why HA could not build a huge hub and capitalize on a stop over strategy - which would attract a lot of pax

A "stopover" program has been offered many times by airlines involving Hawaii, WA used to offer a $99.00 HNL stopover charge travelling between LAX and ANC. Yep routing LAX-HNL-ANC with a stop was $99.00 more than the regular fare flying LAX-SEA-ANC on a 72S, what would you do?

That would be a stop over en route to/from Asia. Not to Alaska!!
 
rjm717
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RE: HA To Canada?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:06 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 10):
n fact, i doubt HA will keep their service to JFK for long

Let's discuss this in 12 months time... (I think you're wrong)
R
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: HA To Canada?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:22 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
I would actually expect AS might be more likely to give YVR-HI a try than HA.

Since AS already has a station at YVR; already operates to Hawaii from at least seven Pacific cities, and already has name recognition in Vancouver, I would think they'd have a chance against WS.
 
Jayce
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RE: HA To Canada?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:32 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 31):
Since AS already has a station at YVR; already operates to Hawaii from at least seven Pacific cities, and already has name recognition in Vancouver, I would think they'd have a chance against WS.

As far as the YVR-Hawaii market, I think AS is focusing on service to and from BLI. Too much competition from AC and WS from YVR, both of which have good connections from there. At BLI they compete with G4 and can offer lower fares than they could from YVR. They still have ads all over the Vancouver area.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
 
SurfandSnow
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RE: HA To Canada?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:11 am

Quoting KLAXAirport (Thread starter):
Would HA ever consider Canada?

Of course they would! I would think they have carefully examined each and every country (within range of their aircraft) whose citizens can easily enter the U.S. for tourist purposes. Canadians can visit the U.S. as tourists easier than virtually any other foreign nationals, so this is a very lucrative market for HA to consider along with the Visa Waiver Program nations like Japan, South Korea, Australia, Singapore, and New Zealand. After careful consideration, I can only assume that HA discovered that Canada is not a viable market (at this time).

Quoting KLAXAirport (Thread starter):
I'm sure HA could compete with WJ on a YVR-HNL route.

Actually, the only way I could ever see HA making Canada work would be with the help of a local partner. This was how they successfully added PHX (HP) and JFK (B6) to their network. I doubt AC would be willing to work with HA, but perhaps WS may be open to the idea, owing to the fact that they sometimes struggle to reach Hawaii with their 737s when the winds are bad, particularly from Alberta. In fact I believe WS was leasing a 757 at one point to rectify a/c performance issues on the Alberta-Hawaii routes. With the help of WS feed and local FFer loyalty, this could give HA the means to successfully serve YVR, YYC, and perhaps even YEG or YYZ.

I do not see any way HA could successfully serve Canada as an independent competitor though. Canadians are more likely to stay loyal to the carrier(s) they fly most often - if they are flying YVR-LAX or YYC-YYZ all the time for business, they probably won't be switching to HA for their trip to Hawaii, unless HA is dirt cheap in which case they wouldn't be making any money. AC and WS also seem to be VERY good at leisure routes from Canadian hubs and focus cities to sunny vacation spots throughout the U.S. Sunbelt, Hawaii, Mexico, and the Caribbean. I don't know if its integrated vacation packages or what, but HA would face strong competition.

On a final note, I would imagine that HA's strong presence in SEA may be at least partially due to all the Canadians coming across the border. Any service to YVR could cannibalize their successful SEA operation.
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RWA380
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RE: HA To Canada?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:53 am

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 29):
That would be a stop over en route to/from Asia. Not to Alaska

I get that, for what ever reason HA has stated that they are more looking at O/D to be their primary business, and connections are not what they are after as much, if you really look, there are a handful of destinations HA serves that would require a layover in HNL one way or another. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a successful EK style hub in HNL for HA with folks flying with one connection from JFK to PER for example, but I guess time will tell, as HA has been growing a lot lately, they won't continue adding cities this fast forever, they will need to digest what they have eaten already.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
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c172akula
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RE: HA To Canada?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:29 pm

WS is leasing two Thomas Cook 757's for Hawaii again this year, pending approval flights will start on December 13th, and run until April 21.

YYC-HNL 2x weekly
YYC-OGG 4x weekly
YEG-OGG 3x weekly
 
YYCSpotter
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RE: HA To Canada?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:31 pm

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 11):
Why wouldn't they be able to fill their planes out of YYC or YEG in the middle of the winter?

Because in the winter, WS wet leases one or 2 752s for the YEG/YYC-HNL route.
I
 
YYCSpotter
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RE: HA To Canada?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 27):
The current terminal and runway can handle the B748, not sure about the A380

If it can handle the AN225, It can handle the A380.
Quoting c172akula (Reply 28):
The CAA should just say the new runway can handle the A225.

the current one already can! In fact, it came for a visit a few months ago!
I
 
Viscount724
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RE: HA To Canada?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:14 am

Quoting yycspotter (Reply 37):
Quoting whiteguy (Reply 27):
The current terminal and runway can handle the B748, not sure about the A380

If it can handle the AN225, It can handle the A380.

I'm sure the runway can, but the An-225 wouldn't be parking at a terminal gate. That's where changes are often needed to handle the A380.
 
YYCSpotter
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RE: HA To Canada?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:01 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
I'm sure the runway can, but the An-225 wouldn't be parking at a terminal gate. That's where changes are often needed to handle the A380.

just clarifying on the runway part-- it is the longest in canada after all!
I
 
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c172akula
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RE: HA To Canada?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:17 pm

Quoting yycspotter (Reply 37):
the current one already can! In fact, it came for a visit a few months ago!

I was well aware of that, I was there to watch the arrival and departure. Just saying that if the CAA is so keen on saying the new runway can handle the A388 and 748 they might as well just say it can handle the A225 while they are at it.

Of course YYC could handle an A388 or 748 at a gate in the event of a diversion, it would most likely impact the adjacent gates while it was parked there (plus a few of the current taxiways would be a little tricky, but it is doable).
 
connies4ever
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RE: HA To Canada?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:39 pm

Quoting yycspotter (Reply 39):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
I'm sure the runway can, but the An-225 wouldn't be parking at a terminal gate. That's where changes are often needed to handle the A380.

just clarifying on the runway part-- it is the longest in canada after all!

Longer than the former CFB Namao ? (closed some time ago, of course). I believe the main runway was almost 14,000 ft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFB_Edmonton
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
YYCSpotter
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RE: HA To Canada?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 41):
Longer than the former CFB Namao ? (closed some time ago, of course). I believe the main runway was almost 14,000 ft.

it was a longer, but it is no longer in operation.
however, the new runway will be 14000 feet, longer than namao.
I
 
Viscount724
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RE: HA To Canada?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:51 pm

Quoting yycspotter (Reply 42):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 41):
Longer than the former CFB Namao ? (closed some time ago, of course). I believe the main runway was almost 14,000 ft.

it was a longer, but it is no longer in operation.
however, the new runway will be 14000 feet, longer than namao.

Wasn't Namao's longest runway 14,000 feet, the same as the new YYC runway? I seem to recall the 14,000 number. There weren't many longer runways anywhere in those days. It was lengthened when Namao was used as a USAF refuelling tanker base (KC-97s) in the 1950s. You can still see the runway on Google Maps (with buildings etc. on one end). The ramp area at the southeast end was the former USAF tanker ramp. There was a big airshow at Namao every summer. I attended quite a few of those when I was growing up in Edmonton. Now it's one of Canada's largest Army bases and the only aircraft using it are helicopters.
http://goo.gl/maps/gXjm

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