VC10er
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Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:58 pm

Yesterday I flew from LGA to RIC to EWR, down on a Delta E145, up on a renovated Unitef E145. All 3 airports had uncountable E135/145's across a number of carriers. Newark looked like the old Embraer 145 factory in Sao Jose dos Campos there were so many. (in fact how many have been built?) they are built like Mac trucks I'm told, so assumably they have a long life in them.

But have they been designed to live as a pax RJ's until they just grow too old then get junked? Or has anyone seen a cargo life for them? I would assume not, otherwise I think I would have seen some working as cargo planes already.

Or be refitted as the military version?

Any facts or conjecture?
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oneskyjet
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RE: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:14 pm

with fuel over $80 / barrel, they just don't work
 
PDPsol
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RE: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Or be refitted as the military version?

Well, this is certainly an interesting idea, as there are over 900 ERJ examples around the planet and Embraer has already developed several military versions of the platform.

Perhaps the most viable option would be a full re fit as a VIP transport model. Embraer already offers this as the C-99A. Acquiring multiple examples from operators, especially the high volume carriers, should be a reasonable exercise.

Embraer could even designate a highly reputable third-party MRO to carry out the re fit to its specifications. I can only imagine this would be a much more economical option for governments versus a Gulfstream, a Dassault, etc. etc.

There will be plenty of these ERJs to go around in the near future...
 
srbmod
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RE: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Or has anyone seen a cargo life for them? I would assume not, otherwise I think I would have seen some working as cargo planes already.

While there have been some CRJs converted into cargo a/c, the market may not really be there for freighter versions of the ERJs and the CRJs even with the sheer number of them out there and potentially being retired in the next 5-10 years or so. This niche is fairly well-covered by conversions (or new build) turboprop freighters like the ATR-42/72, the Dash 8, and the ATP.

I think that as airlines retire their smaller regional jets like the ERJs, you will see some of them sold to be converted into private/business jets, as the costs to acquire and retrofit the cabin would be much cheaper than a new-built Legacy 600/650. Some could be converted for military use and military training use.
 
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Acey559
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RE: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:56 pm

A number of ours have gone to Embraer and have been refurbished as Legacy biz jets, although that's not a huge market by any means. It's a decent airplane but we fly them hard and once they reach their cycle limit they're toast.
 
flightsimer
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RE: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:52 pm

The one thing that has always shocked me was that no 145 based legacy has been built and none have been converted that I know of. It seems like it would be the perfect aircraft.

I wonder about water bombers though. Could a 145 based bomber work? It should be small enough to get into smaller community airports... But could the airframe support it?

Hopefully they will find second a life in them. I think the ERJ is the sexiest RJ and business jet made.
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VC10er
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RE: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 5):

I have been in one new build Legacy at Embraer. We had to wear special slippers and hair nets to go inside. It was a bit gaudy for my taste, but the platform makes a sweet private jet that is sturdy as a Mac truck. It was going to the owner the next day in Saudi. There are a small number of Legacy new builds. I often see one or two in Geneva!
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Salukipilot
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RE: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:46 pm

They just plain burn too much for how many PAX they carry.
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EMBQA
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RE: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:43 am

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 4):

No airliner has ever been converted into a Legacy. The cost to do so would be astronomical. The closest they have come was converting 2 Embraer E135 16 passenger Shuttles into E135 37 passenger airliners...and later, one the other way
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PC12Fan
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RE: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:29 pm

I think it will fit into a similar genre of the A380. Lemme finish!   I think you'll still see a trickle of orders / needs for longer, thinner routes to feed hubs. Ones that are too long for turboprops. Other than that, yea, I think the 50 seaters are on thier fourteenth and a half minute of fame.
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EXMEMWIDGET
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RE: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:27 pm

Quoting Reply 1):
with fuel over $80 / barrel, they just don't work

Plus the fact that a high number of RJ flights are operated on very short flights where the aircraft doesn't have enough time to reach the higher altitudes where they are the most fuel efficient.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting EXMEMWIDGET (Reply 10):
Plus the fact that a high number of RJ flights are operated on very short flights where the aircraft doesn't have enough time to reach the higher altitudes where they are the most fuel efficient.

So there's probably a niche market for those aircraft in airlines which would like to fly them distances up to 70-80% of its maximum range?
Pretty sure there are passengers out there who would tolerate 4+ hours on one of those aircraft if given 34" pitch between rows.
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PDPsol
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RE: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
No airliner has ever been converted into a Legacy. The cost to do so would be astronomical.

Really? What about a military re fit and conversion to a VIP carrier? Surely, this would be less expensive than ordering a new C-99A? Couldn't Embraer subcontract a very reputable third party MRO to perform the re fit to its standards and market the aircraft to governments? There is surely a big market for this type of aircraft.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 12):

Sure... with millions-millions of dollars you can do anything. The cost and labor to go from a 37 passenger E135 to a 16 passenger E135 Shuttle is not 'that' bad though extensive modification to the floor and ceiling structure are required To go from a E135..any E135 to a Legacy the cost would be astronomical. Though based off an E135 fuselage, that where it ends. Different fuel systems, different cabin structure....heck different everything.
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:16 pm

Now that fuel is down around $50 (today it's $48), is anyone pulling the ERJs out of Kingman for instance? (e.g. not specifically Kingman Arizona, just that it has allot of ERJs and CRJ200s, I'm referring to aircraft storage in General)

I've noticed fewer used ERJ-135LRs for sale than I did last year when I started paying attention (yes, I like the ERJs).
learning never stops.
 
cheapgreek
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Re: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:27 am

ODwyerPW wrote:
Now that fuel is down around $50 (today it's $48), is anyone pulling the ERJs out of Kingman for instance? (e.g. not specifically Kingman Arizona, just that it has allot of ERJs and CRJ200s, I'm referring to aircraft storage in General)

I've noticed fewer used ERJ-135LRs for sale than I did last year when I started paying attention (yes, I like the ERJs).


I don't know where AA is pulling the ERJ-145's that are being placed with Piedmont, but they just added their 18th frame to the fleet. By the end of 2017, Piedmont's Dash-8 fleet will consist of 11 300's and 4 100's. While I like seeing the Dash's go away, slow, noisy and vibration that will shake your filling loose, some cities will lose service due to the 145's runway requirements. HHH for sure and perhaps HVN. I remember back in 2002, Piedmont alone before their merger with Allegheny had about 70 planes. Today with Allegheny's Dash's, the fleet is about 35 planes.
 
Spacepope
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Re: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:37 am

ODwyerPW wrote:
Now that fuel is down around $50 (today it's $48), is anyone pulling the ERJs out of Kingman for instance? (e.g. not specifically Kingman Arizona, just that it has allot of ERJs and CRJ200s, I'm referring to aircraft storage in General)

I've noticed fewer used ERJ-135LRs for sale than I did last year when I started paying attention (yes, I like the ERJs).


One was just pulled out of IGM today. You can keep up at https://crjspotter.blogspot.com/
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masseybrown
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Re: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:19 am

As noted in another thread, Ultimate Shuttle, operating out of Cincinnati Lunken, has one E135 and is looking for more. Ultimate configs them at 30 passengers for Part 380 Public Charter purposes. UE charges close to full-fare Y ticket prices, so the plane should work for them at current and projected fuel prices for a few years at least.
 
Someone83
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Re: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:49 am

Fuel alone isn't the only issue, crew is as well. Both in terms of cost per seat, bit also actually getting a crew to fly them (in the US)
 
Web
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Re: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:39 pm

masseybrown wrote:
As noted in another thread, Ultimate Shuttle, operating out of Cincinnati Lunken, has one E135 and is looking for more.

Other operators gaining ERJs include CommutAir, ViaAir, and JetSuiteX. Not sure where the aircraft are coming from specifically, but there are at least a few operators who see ongoing value in the ERJs.

Also, considering a few cargo carriers have had success with cargo EMB-120s, I would not be surprised to see a few cargo 135/140/145s around if someone is willing to develop a cargo door STC like IFL has on the CRJ-200.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:42 pm

CommutAir's ERJs are coming from another UA Ex operator (Expressjet?).
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:34 pm

Web wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
As noted in another thread, Ultimate Shuttle, operating out of Cincinnati Lunken, has one E135 and is looking for more.

Other operators gaining ERJs include CommutAir, ViaAir, and JetSuiteX. Not sure where the aircraft are coming from specifically, but there are at least a few operators who see ongoing value in the ERJs.

Also, considering a few cargo carriers have had success with cargo EMB-120s, I would not be surprised to see a few cargo 135/140/145s around if someone is willing to develop a cargo door STC like IFL has on the CRJ-200.


I would be surprised to see a 135/140/145 freighter like the CRJ1/2. The CRJ is wide enough to allow a pallet to be placed in the aircraft, whereas the 145 family is not, IIRC. Maybe they'll use them for bulk loading for a package freighter, but nothing beyond that.
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cornishsimon
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Re: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:02 pm

There's a rumor that BMI Regional in the UK will be adding to its current E35/45 fleet for expansion.


cs
 
MEA-707
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Re: RE: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:06 pm

PC12Fan wrote:
I think it will fit into a similar genre of the A380. Lemme finish!   I think you'll still see a trickle of orders / needs for longer, thinner routes to feed hubs. Ones that are too long for turboprops. Other than that, yea, I think the 50 seaters are on thier fourteenth and a half minute of fame.


Production of passenger E145s ceased already about 8 years ago. I am sure if you want 20, Embraer will built them for you because the 135 Legacy line is still open but I just don't see it happen when there are loads of low hours frames available on the second hand market.

Indeed EWR is the E145 hub of the world. But you should realize most of these are flying only in the USA. It was never important anywhere else and even the few major airlines outside the USA like Aerolitoral, Crossair, Portugalia, BA Regional and China Southern have stopped flying them. There are many low hours E145s parked, a few have returned to service when the fuelprice came down but not in big numbers, I don't see a come back anytime. United Express and American Eagle* (*or the airlines operating them like Expressjet) just still have almost 200 of them each and there is no replacement in the 50 seat size but they are slowly getting rid of the older ones.
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Web
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Re: Will The Embraer 135/145 Have A Second Life?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:06 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
I would be surprised to see a 135/140/145 freighter like the CRJ1/2. The CRJ is wide enough to allow a pallet to be placed in the aircraft, whereas the 145 family is not, IIRC. Maybe they'll use them for bulk loading for a package freighter, but nothing beyond that.

The 145 family has a wider cabin than the Falcon 20, which sees plenty of use in the charter freight market. Most palletized cargo is 44" x 48". Plenty of room in any RJ for those.

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