firiko
Topic Author
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:08 pm

Rumuor has it Delta will be suspending IST operations and is more then likely to axe it shortly after.

It's sad to see the first nonstop service from USA to Turkey to come to an end

Turkish Airlines and United will be celebrating their victory  

In my personel opininon Delta always underestimated the Turkish market. Izmır office was closed despite the highest sales figures in Europe so was IST reservations in favour of online sales.

Seems they will be suspending services in favour of AirFrance but what they don't know is Airfrance is generally a clueless airline in the Turkish market.
 
IndianicWorld
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:13 pm

The fact is that growth in a market only goes so far and there's usually a loser in the process. DL is the one to go first in this example.

As IST is a Star hub, it's also not surprising that this is the outcome.
 
firiko
Topic Author
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:17 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 1):
DL is the one to go first in this example.

I expected more from Delta. It's sad to see them getting ready to leave just after United started.

You would think a few marketing tricks and a competitive product would do the deal
 
TeamintheSky
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting firiko (Thread starter):
Seems they will be suspending services in favour of AirFrance but what they don't know is Airfrance is generally a clueless airline in the Turkish market.



With all due respect, such throw away statements take away from the discussion on this board. What proof do you have that AF is generally clueless when it comes to the Turkish market? Is it simply a disdain for AF or are there quantitative numbers you can provide?

I am happy to be corrected if you have any information, but as a person who has taken AF to IST this year originating at LHR, the loads have been fantastic on a A319 and the route was better priced than direct on BA or TK (by a few hundred pounds) or connecting on LH or LX and they also seem to be connecting a number of people across the Atlantic. I sat next to quite a nice Brazilian couple on one of the flights down. As such, AF could upgrade to an A320 if they can get a number of DL connecting passengers. Especially with the opening of S4, CDG will be much easier for connections onto non Schengen countries.

So please before the general bashing of AF goes one step further, please provide the evidence for such "cluelessness"

Regards,

Team
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
firiko
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:45 pm

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 3):
proof do you have that AF is generally clueless when it comes to the Turkish market? Is it simply a disdain for AF or are there quantitative numbers you can provide?

I have flown on Air France many times myself and to me that goes far beyond numbers.


and you dont need numbers when you approach the Air France desk @ IST with a ticket and they give you a blank face or ask you to call some international number who doesn't speak your language

Airlines become clueless when they look at people as numbers and your statement or questions i should say is the proof you are seeking to prove my case.
 
klwright69
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:51 pm

Before we really get going here, is this rumor or fact? I will believe it when I see it.

I flew this route in 1997 nonstop on DL. And I also flew it on PA via FRA.

So DL has name recognition to IST.

But I do agree competition has really been increasing.
 
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jfklganyc
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:59 pm

I also want to know if DL really is axing this.

This route has been flown for decades.

JV and alliances are changing US-Europe travel. This may be another evolution. Stay tuned.
 
JU068
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 3):
Is it simply a disdain for AF or are there quantitative numbers you can provide?

Well they did launch a 4 weekly flight from Marseille to Istanbul which proved to be a catastrophe. Maybe that is what he was referring to?
 
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mayor
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 6):
I also want to know if DL really is axing this.

I realize this can change, but Delta.com shows it still operating, at least up thru March of next year. You'd think they would have made an announcement by now.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
delta2ual
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:23 pm

Although said if true, it really wouldn't surprise me. With fuel and the overall economy the way it, I think airlines will depend more and more on their alliance partners. If FF's can earn and redeem their miles then any route that is losing money or marginal at best would be better provided by a partner. I'm not saying DL is losing money on the route I'm just speaking generally.
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
LAXintl
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Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:03 pm

If it happens, it happen. DL has continued to be ever more marginalized in the Turkey market, now carrying mostly the deep discount crowd, plus package and cruise traffic clients. At one time they had many dozen corporate accounts, and was well thought of having inherited the very strong Pan Am franchise in Turkey. In recent years capacity in winters has been trimmed extensively as well.

As far as comments about Air France, while Skyteam might not have a very strong branding or popularity in Turkey these days compared to Star, but AF, AZ, KL all continue to have and have long had significant operations in the country. As point of trivia even, it was Air France predecessor company that operated the first ever international air service to Turkey back in 1922 over Paris – Bucharest – Istanbul routing.

But as Delta has done in other markets (JFK-Athens for example), many deeper Europe markets can be reached via partners hubs quite easily on code-share basis. With the JV in place across the Atlantic, DL now has many more viable market and revenue options that did not exist prior.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
panamair
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
In recent years capacity in winters has been trimmed extensively as well.

Winter capacity actually has been at 5x weekly, which is not that 'extensive' a trimming; UA is also planning on operating EWR-IST 5x weekly this winter.
 
klwright69
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:12 pm

As I said it's true this is an old PAN AM route, which I have flown.

But longevity does not mean forever. GYE was CO's first south american route and it's now gone for instance.

I agree, it seems nothing is surprising anymore.. AF dropping EWR, and CO dropping IAH-CDG were surprises, and they had been around awhile also.
 
LAXintl
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Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:45 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 11):
Winter capacity actually has been at 5x weekly, which is not that 'extensive' a trimming;

Was it not initially loaded for 4x weekly this winter ? Anyhow they cant seem to quite decide if its a 763-764 or 330 in recent years. Going from daily 330 to 5x 763 is drop from 1700 to 1000'ish seats.

Quoting panamair (Reply 11):
UA is also planning on operating EWR-IST 5x weekly this winter.

True but UA is new player, and also have advantage of being able to utilize the double daily TK to JFK during the winter.

Before the UA route became a reality this year, it had been under review for 3-4 years now including on the CO side aswell. Matter of fact my original recommendation was for UA(CO) to run it seasonally, as how they ran Athens for many years, but more recently it became clear a year-round ops could be supported as Delta's performance continued to weaken in the market even as the total market size continued to grow.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Viscount724
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:45 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 12):
As I said it's true this is an old PAN AM route, which I have flown.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
and was well thought of having inherited the very strong Pan Am franchise in Turkey.

Did Pan Am ever operate nonstop from the U.S. to IST? I don't think so. I checked about 7 timetables from the 1960s/70s/80s and couldn't find any nonstops.

In 1983 their only IST service was a change-of-gauge tag-on 737-200 via FRA and only 5 per week.

In 1985 and 1987 their only IST service was a daily 727 change-of gauge service via GVA and ZRH. The 727 operated IST-GVA-ZRH, and passengers to JFK could connect at ZRH to a ZRH-JFK 747. So IST-JFK required 2 stops and one change of aircraft, and the IST-GVA-ZRH routing involved a backhaul in the opposite direction GVA-ZRH which added to the elapsed time. There must have been many much better and faster one-stop connecting options on other carriers via FRA/ZRH/CDG/LHR then.

And in earlier years IST was never better than a one-stop via FRA.
 
spiritair97
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):

TK is actually now 3x daily

THY1/2 operated by a 77W
THY3/4 operated by a a333
THY11/12 operated by a 77W
 
LAXintl
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:10 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Did Pan Am ever operate nonstop from the U.S. to IST? I don't think so. I checked about 7 timetables from the 1960s/70s/80s and couldn't find any nonstops.

No PA never did nonstop to the US. When the A310-300s arrived in the late 80s its was considered for a single summer season, but the route was simply too long to make it viable on the A310 without a stop.

The PA peak for IST was the double daily 747 round the world service of PA 1 & 2.

PA also served Ankara on several occasions, but its Turkish service existed continually since the 50s over a variety of routings (via Rome for a long period).
Also PA did extensive charters to Turkey primarily from Germany as part of its IGS service, so one could see PA in places like Izmir and Antalya as well.

With the freedom to sell lots of global destinations, PA became quite a popular carrier in the Turkish society by the 1960s. You could reach many points in Europe, Middle East, Asia and off course America all on Pan Am.

Also besides the commercial aspect, PA had a part in Turkish aviation as well. For instance the first 2 TK 707s were leased and crewed by Pan Am in the 1960s. Later PA trained Turkish crews to operate the aircraft which remained in the PA fleet. PA help build up much of the TK maintenance infrastructure in the 60s and 70s, PA helped with the first IT reservations system at TK (offshot of PANAMAC), and in later years even helped TK establish ETOPS A310 Atlantic ops qualifications. Also due currency transfer restrictions back in the day, Pan Am got involved in other businesses including even and advertising agency (which no doubt helped with PA's PR)

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 15):
TK is actually now 3x daily

That is the current summer -- I was discussing winter.

[Edited 2012-07-22 10:25:18]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
bobnwa
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting firiko (Thread starter):
In my personel opininon Delta always underestimated the Turkish market. Izmır office was closed despite the highest sales figures in Europe so was IST reservations in favour of online sales.

Do you have any proof that IST had the highest sales figures in Europe as well as reservations having the highest numbers?
I would doubt both of those statements.
 
panamair
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
Was it not initially loaded for 4x weekly this winter ?

No, JFK-IST was loaded at 5x. JFK-PRG was loaded as 4x weekly this winter (was 5x last winter), and then they decided to suspend it for the winter (coming back March 30).

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 15):

TK is actually now 3x daily

TK will be 2x daily 77W during the winter. Departures are either a very early 1255pm from JFK or the late 1115p

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
and also have advantage of being able to utilize the double daily TK to JFK during the winter.

Don't know if it's in the works, but UA doesn't codeshare on TK's JFK services; in fact US is the codeshare partner on TK's JFK-IST flights currently. While TK being in *A with UA is a good way for UA to generate Turkey-originating traffic, the UA-TK relationship doesn't seem that 'close', considering that they have very recently revised (reduced) their codeshare agreements, with UA dropping their codes on TK's Europe-IST flights, and TK cutting the number of US domestic codeshares on UA, as well as on UA's transatlantic flights.....
 
BestWestern
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting firiko (Thread starter):
Izmır office was closed despite the highest sales figures in Europe

An offline sales office had the highest sales in Europe? Really?

Quoting firiko (Thread starter):
United will be celebrating their victory

UA flying the route for how long exactly? A little premaure don't you think?
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
LAXintl
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 18):
UA-TK relationship doesn't seem that 'close'

True, but I am working on it   

The pesky A++ JV with LH gets in the way...

Quoting panamair (Reply 18):
with UA dropping their codes on TK's Europe-IST flights, and TK cutting the number of US domestic codeshares on UA, as well as on UA's transatlantic flights.....

Much of that is IT related, and had to get pulled. Once UA finally gets over the Shares hump, they should be able to make class inventory dynamically available for free sale better.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
klwright69
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:51 pm

On a sidebar, when I said I flew this route on PAN AM, what I meant was JFK-IST (same flight number but with the change to the 727 in FRA). I should have clarified this point earlier before it was a flame frenzy against me. I did not mean nonstop.

I also flew the nonstop route on DL. I am aware PA had a strong following in Turkey. I never really had the impression DL worked as hard to maintain this from what little i could tell.

Anyway, it would not surprise me if DL cuts the route. Airlines can look at ways to maximize their relationships.

And I flew the PA tagon to ESB from IST.

[Edited 2012-07-22 10:56:40]
 
PHX787
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting firiko (Thread starter):
Turkish Airlines and United will be celebrating their victory

How many flights does TK have to the states, and where do they fly to?

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 1):
As IST is a Star hub, it's also not surprising that this is the outcome.

That's true. Does US have service to IST?

Also: What's the service options like for us SkyTeam members   ? I'm planning a trip to Eregli in a year or so to see a girl from my college   
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LAXintl
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 21):
I never really had the impression DL worked as hard to maintain this from what little i could tell.

You are right - especially over time.

Following the 1991 takeover they left things alone for the most part for a year or so.

But over time things saw big changes. The PA airport staff was replaced by vendors, ticket office staff was reduced (they left the famous Hilton hotel location), Turkish flight attendants were let go, they never took up the opportunity to serve Ankara which they had said they would at the time of the route purchase, some bizarre reorganization changes for Delta in Europe which left a weaker sales organization and people in charge of Turkey that had never been to the country. etc..

In fairness for Delta many of these changes were economic based, however over time the goodwill that Pan Am had established in Turkey started shifting to other airlines.

Also does not help that THY was spreading its wings, and each year the carrier slowly grew stronger with its market share pie getting bigger as well.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
How many flights does TK have to the states, and where do they fly to?



The summer schedule is 3x daily to JFK, and daily to ORD, IAD, and LAX. In Canada they also serve YYZ.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
What's the service options like for us SkyTeam members

You have AF, AZ and KL serving Turkey via their hubs.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Viscount724
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
Quoting firiko (Thread starter):
Turkish Airlines and United will be celebrating their victory

How many flights does TK have to the states, and where do they fly to?
JFK - 3 daily (2 777-300ER, 1 A330-300). The A330 flight is peak only, May to mid-September.
IAD - 1 daily A340-300
ORD - 1 daily A330-200
LAX - 1 daily 777-300ER
IAH - 4 x week 777-300ER (starting April 1, 2013)

And YYZ - 4 x week 777-300ER

[Edited 2012-07-22 13:07:36]
 
captainstefan
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:32 pm

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 9):
With fuel and the overall economy the way it, I think airlines will depend more and more on their alliance partners.

Funny with the aforementioned 'distant' relationship between UA and TK. Not to mention that loads to and from IST on the newly launched flight are looking very good for UA (and pretty far out to boot).
Long Live the Tulip!
 
firiko
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 5):
is this rumor or fact?

Fact really but rumor until officially announced and i suppose they can delay announcing it as they relay on SkyTeam

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 17):
Do you have any proof that IST had the highest sales figures in Europe as well as reservations having the highest numbers?
I would doubt both of those statements.

Izmir was the station that was awarded merits not IST and yes Turkish travelers still relay on tele reservations rather than online. It still is the case.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 19):
An offline sales office had the highest sales in Europe? Really?

Yes really thanks to Izmir being a NATO base.
 
ORDJOE
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:35 pm

I can not see IST having a high demand for premium traffic. Yes they can fill the planes. but whenever I TK lines at ORD most of them seem like VFR traffic.

It is probably an issue more of that DL can use that metal on a more profitable route other than IST as IST is pretty well served already especially from EWR and JFK.
 
firiko
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
AF, AZ, KL

I seriously doubt they have Delta's best interest because if you are ticketed by Delta on any of these carrier flights early in the morning when the Delta airport office is closed they will tell you NO RECORD is found under your name and you will find yourself figting to prove your case.

Skyteam with a sense of competiton i suppose
 
PHX787
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:51 pm

Quoting firiko (Reply 28):
Skyteam with a sense of competiton i suppose

Just did some toying around on the DL website, and as of today it still shows DL72 (767) from JFK in February 2013,
and also a number of codeshares:
"DL 8708" Operated by AF CDG-IST (A319)
"DL 8447" Operated by AF CDG-IST (A319)
KL 1613 AMS-IST (B737) (weird, they show the actual KL flight instead of the DL codeshare number?)
KL 1617 AMS-IST (B737)
There's plenty more but those two are the ones that immediately come up.

It's weird that no AZ flights show up.
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jfklganyc
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:01 pm

"IST is pretty well served already especially from EWR and JFK."

Yes...served by Delta well for a long time out of JFK.

Why are they folding tent so easily?
 
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STT757
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:12 am

A DL ad banner just popped up advertising service to Istanbul, funny.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Burj
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:04 am

If given a choice of a direct flight on UA/TK between NYC and IST or a connection on DL/AF via CDG which do you think most consumers will pick?

Given the nightmare that is connecting in CDG Delta should think hard before giving up on their direct service....
 
YULWinterSkies
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:07 am

Quoting burj (Reply 32):
If given a choice of a direct flight on UA/TK between NYC and IST or a connection on DL/AF via CDG which do you think most consumers will pick?

Given the nightmare that is connecting in CDG Delta should think hard before giving up on their direct service....

Easy. They will pick the flight with connection because it is cheaper. Of course they won't know that connecting in CDG is a nightmare. But it won't matter because it is cheaper. I hate to say, but that's how it works these days. The days of point-to-point are gone.
DL might lose a bit by dropping IST, but if they do so, it is because they think they can use that aircraft time block elsewhere where yields are, in their opinion, better.
When I doubt... go running!
 
Gemuser
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:04 am

Quoting firiko (Reply 28):
I seriously doubt they have Delta's best interest because if you are ticketed by Delta on any of these carrier flights early in the morning when the Delta airport office is closed they will tell you NO RECORD is found under your name

That's interesting! Exactly the same thing happened to me with a DL issued RTW Sky Team ticket on KE at VVO in 2010. the Russian check in agent called the KE supervisor over who, after checking our documentation spent 15 minutes looking for the ticket so he could issue the boarding passes. He said it was because DL issued the ticket.
The funny thing was the check in agent could see something so she could issue baggage tags to MEL (which was correct, unfortunately!) but couldn't issue boarding passes.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
klwright69
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:38 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
But over time things saw big changes. The PA airport staff was replaced by vendors, ticket office staff was reduced (they left the famous Hilton hotel location), Turkish flight attendants were let go, they never took up the opportunity to serve Ankara which they had said they would at the time of the route purchase, some bizarre reorganization changes for Delta in Europe which left a weaker sales organization and people in charge of Turkey that had never been to the country. etc..

Yes, interesting. I remember PA did have Turkish flight attendants, and I took PA one to Ankara as well.
 
firiko
Topic Author
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:42 am

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 35):
A did have Turkish flight attendants,

Delta still has Turkish speaking flight attendants.
 
turkishraf
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:14 am

I flew air France to IST ex LHR in J and it was atrocious. KLM J the same . Economy seats for J and cold food no choice.

As for DL as you say, they never pushed Turkey and operated Atlanta one day JFK the next. Not ideal.

There is a Turkish -US market and it's building. Shame that DL cannot find its niche, maybe landing at SAW would have been better with a Pegasus Tie up.
 
mixalakhs
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:59 pm

I was surprise Delta made ATH seasonal as there will be no other direct flight on W12 between USA and Greece and kept IST, by the time Turkish airlines offers so many flights with an excellent product.
I am sure United airlines will make it seasonal very soon. No US airline can match TK product.
If TK product was not that good, then US airlines would have a chance to survive in the Turkish market.
Time will show how long United Airlines will last in IST!
 
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TK787
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Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:16 pm

I have done JFK-IST on DL for many many years and like LAXintl says, mostly because of being a Skymiles sucker.
After 5 years not flying with them, I gave TK a try last April on their Comfort class and the choice is obvious.
Guess what I will be flying later this afternoon? TK2 to IST again on their Comfort Class.
How can anyone beat $1700 RT for one of the best Y+ products out there purchased 3 days prior.

We all knew that this might be coming at "Turkish Aviation" threads, with TK going 3 x daily and UA entering the market. This will give a huge confidence boost to TK and 3 x daily might go year around.
Dare I say 4 x daily??? (Depending on airframe availability)
 
icarus75
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting firiko (Thread starter):
Seems they will be suspending services in favour of AirFrance but what they don't know is Airfrance is generally a clueless airline in the Turkish market.

AF clueless in the Turkish market? I'm flying AF once a week between DUS & CDG and everytime, there are at least 10 pax with a connection to IST.

Quoting burj (Reply 32):
Given the nightmare that is connecting in CDG Delta should think hard before giving up on their direct service....

Here we go again! CDG is not the best airport but it's not more a nightmare than other airports!
Flying is amazing!
 
tommy767
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:57 pm

I don't know if I believe this rumor. DL has flown JFK-IST for many, many years and up until this summer was the only US carrier on the route.

Could be a winter suspension, but year round? I'll believe it when I see it.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 12):
I agree, it seems nothing is surprising anymore.. AF dropping EWR, and CO dropping IAH-CDG were surprises, and they had been around awhile also.

United dropped Houston-Paris, not Continental.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
klwright69
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 41):
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 12):
I agree, it seems nothing is surprising anymore.. AF dropping EWR, and CO dropping IAH-CDG were surprises, and they had been around awhile also.

United dropped Houston-Paris, not Continental.

Thanks, not thinking there for a second.. Was thinking about all the years CO flew the route, like DL to IST.
 
catiii
Posts: 2387
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:29 pm

Quoting firiko (Reply 4):

I have flown on Air France many times myself and to me that goes far beyond numbers.


and you dont need numbers when you approach the Air France desk @ IST with a ticket and they give you a blank face or ask you to call some international number who doesn't speak your language

Airlines become clueless when they look at people as numbers and your statement or questions i should say is the proof you are seeking to prove my case.

And posters on this board become clueless when they make sweeping generalizations about an airline's marketing intelligence in a market based on a bad customer service experience...
 
panamair
Posts: 3759
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:46 pm

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 25):
Not to mention that loads to and from IST on the newly launched flight are looking very good for UA (and pretty far out to boot)

Loads were/are not a problem for Delta to/from IST.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 39):
How can anyone beat $1700 RT for one of the best Y+ products out there purchased 3 days prior.

That's probably more the issue for Delta...TK consistently has some of the lowest fares (in all cabins), particularly for transit traffic. Not just on flights to/from the US, but all over the world....try pricing any Europe-Asia itinerary in J, and TK (together with SU and MS) will almost always pop up as one of the cheapest J options.
 
turkishraf
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:16 am

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 44):

I must agree with firkin. Air France are clueless. Food is fundamental to Turks and AF served a single cold dish (with a fantastic selection of wines mind! ) on the flight to IST. Combine this with the anti Turkish Rhetoric in the French press and the French government of late, and you end up with a product that's hard to sell in Turkey.

Finally I have to say that changing planes at CDG was the most painful in Europe. If you don't speak French it's a nightmare. I do, so it was not so painful, but I found myself translating for my English fellow passengers.

Looking at AF in general, they are a loss making parastatal, hindered in a burgeoning new market by the indignation of the people they are trying to sell to.
 
rwsea
Posts: 2422
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
If it happens, it happen. DL has continued to be ever more marginalized in the Turkey market, now carrying mostly the deep discount crowd, plus package and cruise traffic clients. At one time they had many dozen corporate accounts, and was well thought of having inherited the very strong Pan Am franchise in Turkey. In recent years capacity in winters has been trimmed extensively as well.
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 15):
TK is actually now 3x daily

THY1/2 operated by a 77W
THY3/4 operated by a a333
THY11/12 operated by a 77W

We'll see if this turns out to be true, but I wouldn't be surprised it is. TK has made huge inroads to the US market over the past few years and has a significantly better product in all classes. Who in their right mind would choose DL's ratty old 767 with a pathetic business class and even worse coach offering, when they could instead choose new planes with lie-flat business class seats, AVOD, and all the proper amenities in 2012 - not to mention, an airline that actually tries to provide good catering and in-flight service. Every flight I have had with TK has been excellent and it is obvious that they are doing their most to create a top-rated airline. Delta is trying to catch up, but the hard product enhancements are taking too long for competitive routes like this one, and the soft product still sucks with no improvement in sight.
 
catiii
Posts: 2387
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:09 pm

Quoting turkishraf (Reply 45):

I must agree with firkin. Air France are clueless. Food is fundamental to Turks and AF served a single cold dish (with a fantastic selection of wines mind! ) on the flight to IST.

And I've flown Turkish Airlines where all I have gotten is a cold sandwich in economy, so the point is...?
 
panamair
Posts: 3759
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting rwsea (Reply 46):
TK has made huge inroads to the US market over the past few years and has a significantly better product in all classes. Who in their right mind would choose DL's ratty old 767 with a pathetic business class and even worse coach offering, when they could instead choose new planes with lie-flat business class seats, AVOD, and all the proper amenities in 2012 - not to mention, an airline that actually tries to provide good catering and in-flight service. Every flight I have had with TK has been excellent and it is obvious that they are doing their most to create a top-rated airline. Delta is trying to catch up, but the hard product enhancements are taking too long for competitive routes like this one, and the soft product still sucks with no improvement in sight.

If product were such a huge driver, TK wouldn't be one of the cheapest J options in many markets. As I said, TK is often in the top 3 of cheapest J options in many markets that transit IST (e.g., Europe to Asia), despite offering top-notch D&O catering in J. Their J hard product however is still inconsistent (flatbed J on 77Ws and 333s, angled flats on 332s and 343s), and their soft product, frankly, is pretty bad, especially when it comes to cabin crew attentiveness. I have taken advantage of their cheap J fares between Europe and BKK/HKG/ICN many times as well as between JFK and the Middle East, and I would say that 75% of the cabin crew on these runs are more interested in conversing with each other than in paying attention to the passenger; frankly, I would prefer to fly with most Delta BusinessElite cabin staff than the TK ones I have experienced. Not to mention their IST lounge features some of the most apathetic and surly staff I have ever come across (as far as a premium travel experience is concerned), enough to give some of the nastiest lounge 'dragons' at the U.S. carriers a run for their money....

No denying that TK has made tremendous progress especially in the hard product area, but their service IME, is still far from that of the "Best Airline in Europe" (an award they just won in the World Airline Awards)....
 
leftyboarder
Posts: 739
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:38 pm

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:34 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 47):

As opposed to zilch in DL? By the way, TK only serves cold sandwiches in domestic or very short Euro routes; otherwise it is much more than that. AF honestly sucks in on board catering short haul. Of course still light years ahead of AZ or IB..