captainstefan
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737max Windows - Any Update?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:50 pm

I did some digging around the forum database and couldn't find anything conclusive regarding this subject -

1. Why didn't Boeing use the 777/764 style windows on the 737NGs?
2. Will the 737max series feature the new window shape?

Since the 737NGs entered service about 3 years after the 777 did how come Boeing did not choose to put the new windows in the NG, like they did with the 767-400ER (with respect to the -300)?


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XT6Wagon
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RE: 737max Windows - Any Update?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:00 pm

larger windows = more wieght. You have to have a much stronger structure around the widow to deal with the weakness the hole creates. Then you have the wieght of the window itself.

The 787 got bigger windows as it was nearly free with the skin thickness required for impact damage being much greater than required for simple pressurization loads, making holes requires less extra reinforcement.

The 748i got 777 windows as a way to save money, but I think if Boeing knew the engineering costs they might have even skipped this, as this was part of the cost over-run issue.

While I don't know about the 764, I'd assume its the same as the 748i, where it was done to save money by using more modern and cheaper window assemblies.
 
roseflyer
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RE: 737max Windows - Any Update?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:59 pm

Quoting captainstefan (Thread starter):
2. Will the 737max series feature the new window shape?

The MAX is a minimum change airplane. Unless it significantly improved customer satisfaction, changes aren't being made. There are new window reveals and sidewalls on the 737NG Sky Interior. On the MAX they are avoiding mission creep like they allowed on the 747-8, which did end up with new cabin windows.
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tdscanuck
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RE: 737max Windows - Any Update?

Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:00 pm

Quoting captainstefan (Thread starter):
1. Why didn't Boeing use the 777/764 style windows on the 737NGs?

Minimum change dervative, hypersensitive to weight. I don't think there's any way new windows on a 737NG could close the business case.

Quoting captainstefan (Thread starter):
2. Will the 737max series feature the new window shape?

I hope not; as a passenger it would be nice but as an engineer that's a supply chain risk that just doesn't need to be baked into the MAX (Boeing doesn't build the 737 fuselage anymore). Plus, changing the window belt would certainly require more structural testing than not.

Tom.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: 737max Windows - Any Update?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:41 am

When the MAX comes out, is there any way that the current windows can be configured to dim like the 787 windows do? That would be awesome to see!

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 2):
There are new window reveals and sidewalls on the 737NG Sky Interior.

Just so that I understand you correctly, the windows themselves are the exact same shape as the older models, the sidewall panels inside the airplane make it look like that the windows are round, when in fact, it is not. I got the opportunity to see one of our newer airplanes at UA with the SkyInterior and was surprised by the new sidewall look. Pretty nice, if you ask me!
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roseflyer
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RE: 737max Windows - Any Update?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
When the MAX comes out, is there any way that the current windows can be configured to dim like the 787 windows do? That would be awesome to see!

It would be possible but such design changes cost too much money in an existing design. The interior is going to be virtually the same as the sky interior.
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ODwyerPW
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RE: 737max Windows - Any Update?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:32 am

It's not the windows many of us would like to see changed. It's the Windscreens. But nothing to be done there. Those tiny cockpit windows and windshields will be around for another 20 years. You could never justify giving the 737Max a new windshield.
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garpd
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RE: 737max Windows - Any Update?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:02 am

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 6):
It's not the windows many of us would like to see changed. It's the Windscreens. But nothing to be done there. Those tiny cockpit windows and windshields will be around for another 20 years. You could never justify giving the 737Max a new windshield.

Over the years many here have suggested putting a 757'767 section 41 on the 737. This is obviously far too expensive an undertaking to even consider, but an interesting idea nonetheless.
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captainstefan
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RE: 737max Windows - Any Update?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:27 pm

Thanks everyone - that makes sense. I now wonder what there was to be gained by changing the window style on the 767-400?

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 6):

It's not the windows many of us would like to see changed. It's the Windscreens. But nothing to be done there. Those tiny cockpit windows and windshields will be around for another 20 years. You could never justify giving the 737Max a new windshield.

One interesting thing I noticed is that it *appears* that Delta has painted over/otherwise removed the eyebrow windows on the 737s. I couldn't understand why, they're incredibly useful in most >10 degree turns. Maybe to accommodate the installation of the HUD?
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by738
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RE: 737max Windows - Any Update?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:38 pm

Lots available in a search for eyebrow windows. They were removed as cost saving for maintenance etc as TCAs and other navigational aids etc has rendered them obsolete. I dont think they were "painted over", they would have been replaced with permanent plugs.
 
yeelep
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RE: 737max Windows - Any Update?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:30 pm

Correct, plugs are installed on retrofit A/C, while on new builds its part of the fuselage structure.
 
N766UA
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RE: 737max Windows - Any Update?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:43 pm

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 8):
One interesting thing I noticed is that it *appears* that Delta has painted over/otherwise removed the eyebrow windows on the 737s. I couldn't understand why, they're incredibly useful in most >10 degree turns. Maybe to accommodate the installation of the HUD?

By removing the windows you save weight. Also, with advances in TCAS, for example, the need to see in banked turns is (theoretically) greatly diminished, thus the window is no longer useful. Also, how many MD80/737 eyebrows do you see with safety cards jammed in them? The sun comes through right into crew's eyes more often than not.
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Viscount724
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RE: 737max Windows - Any Update?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 11):
Quoting captainstefan (Reply 8):
One interesting thing I noticed is that it *appears* that Delta has painted over/otherwise removed the eyebrow windows on the 737s. I couldn't understand why, they're incredibly useful in most >10 degree turns. Maybe to accommodate the installation of the HUD?

By removing the windows you save weight. Also, with advances in TCAS, for example, the need to see in banked turns is (theoretically) greatly diminished, thus the window is no longer useful. Also, how many MD80/737 eyebrows do you see with safety cards jammed in them? The sun comes through right into crew's eyes more often than not.

2005 Boeing photo of the first 737NG built without eyebrow windows and comments re the weight and maintenance savings involved. They were also eliminated on the 717.
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...05/photorelease/q1/pr_050126h.html
 
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ODwyerPW
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RE: 737max Windows - Any Update?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:38 pm

When I first saw the new interior, with the reshaped reveals, I did wonder if it was a step to introducing 777/764/748 windows on future 737 derivatives. But like most, concluded there would be no cost justification, even if the newer windows themselves were cheaper/lighter.
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pilotanthony
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RE: 737max Windows - Any Update?

Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting captainstefan (Thread starter):

Because the 737NG is still a 737 why would you change much of an already FANTASTIC plane, cheap to operate why would you change that! make sense well done Boeing
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