LIPZ
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PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:17 am

Just found through the web.
PAL's president announced the launch of new direct services to Toronto, New York, Paris and Rome among others in the near future.

Quote:

Flag carrier Philippine Airlines (PAL) will add direct flights to Toronto, Canada by end of this year and service New York, Paris, France, Rome and other destinations in Europe by February, 2013, declared new President Ramon S. Ang.
http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/367232/pal-sets-new-western-destinations
 
Pe@rson
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:27 am

Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
PAL's president announced the launch of new direct services to Toronto, New York, Paris and Rome among others in the near future.

Long sectors which will be costly to operate (in terms of trip costs) and which will probably generate low yields (both from the long distances and probably reasonably low per-passenger revenue) given their likely target segments.

We shall see if such services are financially successful.  
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EBGflyer
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:38 am

Wouldn't London be a better fit than Paris?
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rutankrd
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:40 am

The Philippines remain on the EU black list at the moment don't they ?
Cetainly not charged since March and not changed by the April updated either.

So unless they have/are going to use US or EI registered and certified aircraft they won't be in Europe soon.
 
OH-LGA
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:51 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 3):
The Philippines remain on the EU black list at the moment don't they ?

I checked the same thing myself - any airline from the Philippines is on the EU blacklist still from the latest update - I was wondering if there were any rumblings about PR being added as an exception (this is done for many other countries, for example TAAG and Air Astana are granted exemptions although the rest of the carriers based in these countries are EU blacklisted).

It certainly seems ambitious, and I have the same worries that Pe@rson brought up - notably the long stage length and the overwhelming VFR makeup of passenger traffic. Not to mention the payload - when I worked at SFO seeing the lineup from Aisle 10 almost all the way to the G checkpoint and everyone with at least a couple balikbayan boxes, it just boggled my mind... although perhaps the excess baggage surcharges could mitigate that somewhat?
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rutankrd
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:18 pm

This is the salient part of the interview with President Ramon S. Ang

He knows full well that an early return to Europe is unlikely


Quoted from a piece written by By EMMIE V. ABADILLA of Manila Bulletin
"While to date, PAL has no allocations for the Canadian, American and European destinations it targets to serve, Ang is confident. “The Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines (CAAP) will help us,” he said by way of explanation but declined to elaborate."

Quoting OH-LGA (Reply 4):
I was wondering if there were any rumblings about PR being added as an exception

This is possible but not before April 2013 one would have thought

All that said what i do find somewhat odd about the EU ban on the Phillippines (due to administrative issues with CAAP )is that EU companies including Virgin Atlantic use Lufthansa Technic in Manila for servicing their A340s !
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:22 pm

Overexpansion? Seems very optimistic, and not really a great time to attempt this quest.
 
N62NA
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:56 pm

I just double checked - PAL is not in any alliance! This was quite surprising - is it because of the EU thing?
 
LondonCity
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:07 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):
PAL is not in any alliance! This was quite surprising - is it because of the EU thing?

Yes. Almost certainly.
 
sebring
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:09 pm

I don't know what "direct" means in this case, but Toronto-Manila is 400 miles further than Toronto-Hong Kong, so if it's going to be non-stop service, it's going to involve payload penalties and it's going to be a brutally long flight. Toronto-Hong Kong is a 15-hour flight.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
Just found through the web.
PAL's president announced the launch of new direct services to Toronto, New York, Paris and Rome among others in the near future.

The April, 2012 issue of Airways Magazine had a very nice feature article about PAL.

According to Airways, because the US Federal Aviation Administration designates the Philippines a "Category II" country, PAL cannot add additional cities in the US, or even change equipment types.

PAL wants to replace the A340-300s flying to LAX and LAS with 777s, but they are unable to do so until the Philippines go back to Category I.

Canada is a little more flexible, so PAL flies 777s MNL-YVR 4x week. On the other three days, when the MNL-YVR flight continues to LAS, PAL uses A340s due to the Category II issue.

PAL has full local traffic rights on YVR-LAS. Earlier this month, I flew them for no other reason than to add PAL, and the A340, to my logbook. There were about 75 local passengers on my flight, in addition to a large number of passengers flying through from MNL.
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Akiestar
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:46 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 10):
PAL has full local traffic rights on YVR-LAS.

Not full. Canadian restrictions only allow PAL to fly YVR-LAS-YVR carrying up to half of the A340's capacity.

On the Philippine thread, I posted about this, and it said that CDG will most likely not start until February 2014, according to the inquirer.
 
Viscount724
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:43 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 10):

PAL has full local traffic rights on YVR-LAS.
Quoting Akiestar (Reply 11):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 10):
PAL has full local traffic rights on YVR-LAS.

Not full. Canadian restrictions only allow PAL to fly YVR-LAS-YVR carrying up to half of the A340's capacity.

Correct. That's common wording in many bilaterals since 5th freedom traffic is supposd to be a by-product, not the primary reason for existence of the flight.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 10):
Canada is a little more flexible, so PAL flies 777s MNL-YVR 4x week. On the other three days, when the MNL-YVR flight continues to LAS, PAL uses A340s due to the Category II issue.

The new 2008 Canada-Philippines bilateral is very liberal. Philippine carriers are permitted to serve 3 cities in Canada of their choosing with no frequency restrictions. Fifth freedom service between Canada and the U.S. is permitted (except between YYZ and points in California) on 2 sectors and frequency on each 5th freedom sector is restricted to 4 flights a week (and not more than 50% of the capacity of the aircraft, calculated on an annual basis). Any changes to U.S. service is of course dependent on their current FAA Category 2 status being lifted.
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:53 pm

A lot of cruise worker traffic goes to Rome from the P.I. but I cannot imagine it is high yielding.
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behramjee
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):

The new 2008 Canada-Philippines bilateral is very liberal. Philippine carriers are permitted to serve 3 cities in Canada of their choosing with no frequency restrictions. Fifth freedom service between Canada and the U.S. is permitted (except between YYZ and points in California) on 2 sectors and frequency on each 5th freedom sector is restricted to 4 flights a week (and not more than 50% of the capacity of the aircraft, calculated on an annual basis). Any changes to U.S. service is of course dependent on their current FAA Category 2 status being lifted.

Thanks for this piece of information. I think it would be impossible for a B77W to operate year round without payload issues on the MNL-YYZ route nonstop hence with no 5th freedom available via SFO/LAX, it leaves serving YYZ via HNL or SEA only as an alternative viable option.

There are some reality points one must address here as well:

1. None of these routes to be launched + the current long haul ones make a total "net profit" for PAL
2. Even in the future, they cannot under any circumstances as the main form of traffic is low yielding VFR
3. Why is PAL looking at these routes when the annual market size and yields are higher on MNL-KWI + MNL-DOH + MNL-DXB and MNL-DMM along with lesser operating costs due to the lower flying distance involved
4. Isnt PAL on the EU black list currently? If so then when will this be lifted?

Now with regards to the new EU routes in particular, if both FCO and CDG are to be launched, I would speculate that it would be a tag on service i.e. MNL-FCO-CDG (unfortunately) with a B77W operated 4 times per week. For CDG, I would highly suggest that they operate the flight via KWI with 5th freedom rights (if granted) as there is good demand at decent yields on the KWI-CDG sector considering no one currently operates it nonstop plus the local Kuwaitis and expats flying this route will get alcohol on board which KU does not serve! Lastly, MNL-KWI-MNL portion of this route will always be full hence no problem there.

For FCO though it is a more trickier issue. The market size to FCO is 70,000 pax per year and to CDG its 67,000. Rome will not be able to sustain a year round 4 weekly B77W operated terminator service, therefore an alternative option is to have a triangular service such as MNL-FCO-MXP-MNL (MXP market size is 46,000 per year to MNL) or operate MNL-DEL-FCO four weekly with an A333 or B77W as you can then kill 2 birds with one stone.
 
rutankrd
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:17 pm

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 13):

A lot of cruise worker traffic goes to Rome from the P.I. but I cannot imagine it is high yielding.

The Philippines biggest export is there young working population into various service industries in the West and Middle East, such as Nursing ,care of the elderly, more menial tasks and shipping and yes they do return regularly but are very low yielding.

Here in the UK my wife is a clinical manager in a London Hospital and has a significant number of Filipino staff under her control.
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 15):
The Philippines biggest export is there young working population into various service industries in the West and Middle East, such as Nursing ,care of the elderly, more menial tasks and shipping and yes they do return regularly but are very low yielding.

Here in the UK my wife is a clinical manager in a London Hospital and has a significant number of Filipino staff under her control.

definetly. When I lived in Saudi Arabia, Filipinos were the largest groups of laborers it seemed, with Sri Lanka and Bangladesh close behind (at least where I was south of Riyadh.)
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SANFan
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
The new 2008 Canada-Philippines bilateral is very liberal. Philippine carriers are permitted to serve 3 cities in Canada of their choosing with no frequency restrictions. Fifth freedom service between Canada and the U.S. is permitted (except between YYZ and points in California) on 2 sectors and frequency on each 5th freedom sector is restricted to 4 flights a week (and not more than 50% of the capacity of the aircraft, calculated on an annual basis).

Very interesting and thank you for this clarification Viscount'.

This brings up an important question then (for me anyway.) You say that Canada-U.S. service is restricted to 2 sectors. If I am interpreting you correctly, with YVR-LAS in place already, that means that only 1 more Canada-U.S. route could be added? So if PR does a tag-on from YYZ to somewhere in the U.S., it could only be offered 4x weekly, and that would be it for U.S. tag-ons?

Or are you saying Canada-U.S. service is limited to 2 sectors for each Canadian city served? I will assume PR is planning on nonstop service between MNL and JFK although I've seen talk about MNL-YYZ-JFK...

My base interest here is (if not everybody out there already realizes it) is if PR is still even considering SAN-service? I haven't heard it mentioned lately and I've pretty much given up on it. But this information on the 2008 bilateral certainly is pertinent.

Of course, any of this is moot until something, someday, happens regarding the FAA Safety Audit and the Cat I/II issue. (Which doesn't seem to be anything major when we read about the new CEO of PR talking about new service to JFK coming "soon".)

bb
 
airlineaddict
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:38 pm

In another thread we discussed that based on Ramon Ang's assertions of returning to Europe and other points in the US that he was either pulling an Turkish Airways style announcements or PR was going to invest in another airline in SE Asia that is not on the EU Blacklist or Cat II per the FAA.

Guess we'll find out which is the case before the end of the year.
 
Viscount724
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 17):
This brings up an important question then (for me anyway.) You say that Canada-U.S. service is restricted to 2 sectors. If I am interpreting you correctly, with YVR-LAS in place already, that means that only 1 more Canada-U.S. route could be added? So if PR does a tag-on from YYZ to somewhere in the U.S., it could only be offered 4x weekly, and that would be it for U.S. tag-ons?

Yes, that's the way it's worded. Two transborder 5th freedom sectors in total with a maximum of 4 flights weekly on each (and no 5th freedom permitted on YYZ-California sectors).
 
SANFan
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:37 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
Two transborder 5th freedom sectors in total with a maximum of 4 flights weekly on each (and no 5th freedom permitted on YYZ-California sectors).

Thank you Viscount'. Not exactly what I like hearing but IF we ever see the return to Cat I, I guess I'll start thinking about the options that PR might exercise then.

bb
 
ANA787
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:55 pm

Is PAL still interested in serving SAN? What about a MNL-SEA/PDX-YYZ route?
 
Norcal773
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:51 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 17):
My base interest here is (if not everybody out there already realizes it) is if PR is still even considering SAN-service? I haven't heard it mentioned lately and I've pretty much given up on it. But this information on the 2008 bilateral certainly is pertinent.

This SAN notion has been a pipe dream for many here on A.Net over the years. I've seen it discussed here for so long but nothing from PAL on it. I personally don't think it makes sense, not when LAX is 100 miles away.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
wedgetail737
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:52 am

Because of Philippines' Cat II status, PAL or any other Filipino airline cannot add flights to the US.
 
Akiestar
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:19 am

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 22):
This SAN notion has been a pipe dream for many here on A.Net over the years. I've seen it discussed here for so long but nothing from PAL on it.

Pre-San Miguel PAL has mentioned it quite a few times, and they nearly got DOT (or FAA) approval for it, which was derailed due to the imposition of Cat II. Hardly an A.Net pipe dream if you ask me.
 
tonymctigue
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:36 am

Very interesting! Would be great to see PAL spread its wings a bit further. Presumably these new services if the come to pass will be operated by their new B777s? I know that their ageing B747-400s have to make a technical stops on Westbound segments which in these days seems a bit unbelieveable. Or, even more exciting, PAL have been rumoured as being a potential B747-8i customer. One would imagine that you should certainly be able to fill a B747-8i on JFK-MNL and possibly an onward service to CEB?
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
Norcal773
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:50 am

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 25):
Very interesting! Would be great to see PAL spread its wings a bit further. Presumably these new services if the come to pass will be operated by their new B777s?

B777s?? I thought they only have one and no others on order, no?
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
United Airline
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:56 am

What is the EU thing about?
 
Akiestar
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:57 am

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 26):
B777s?? I thought they only have one and no others on order, no?

They currently have three, and three more are coming.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:54 am

PR is looking at MNL-HNL-YYZ and MNL-YVR-EWR.

Saludos,
A.
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SANFan
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 24):
Pre-San Miguel PAL has mentioned it quite a few times, and they nearly got DOT (or FAA) approval for it, which was derailed due to the imposition of Cat II. Hardly an A.Net pipe dream if you ask me.

Well said, my friend..

bb
 
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RWA380
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:42 am

Quoting sebring (Reply 9):
I don't know what "direct" means in this case, but Toronto-Manila is 400 miles further than Toronto-Hong Kong, so if it's going to be non-stop service, it's going to involve payload penalties and it's going to be a brutally long flight. Toronto-Hong Kong is a 15-hour flight

I doubt PR has the ability to make a high density aircraft work on an ULH route, I'd expect PR to fly to NYC and YYZ via other cities.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 11):
Not full. Canadian restrictions only allow PAL to fly YVR-LAS-YVR carrying up to half of the A340's capacity

I think CX gets to fill the 747 as much as they want, IIRC TG had passenger restrictions when it operated SEA-YYZ.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 14):
Thanks for this piece of information. I think it would be impossible for a B77W to operate year round without payload issues on the MNL-YYZ route nonstop hence with no 5th freedom available via SFO/LAX, it leaves serving YYZ via HNL or SEA only as an alternative viable option.

How about GUM like PR uses already for LAX/SFO-MNL flights when heading westbound.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 17):
I will assume PR is planning on nonstop service between MNL and JFK although I've seen talk about MNL-YYZ-JFK

If the high density aircraft PR uses, can make an ULH route like MNL-YYZ/NYC

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 21):
Is PAL still interested in serving SAN? What about a MNL-SEA/PDX-YYZ route

TG flew BKK-TPE/NRT/SEL/KIX-SEA-YYZ for a while, and the flight was awesome to take to Canada. If PR did this it would almost haqve to be SEA, even though they operated out of YVR too.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 29):
PR is looking at MNL-HNL-YYZ and MNL-YVR-EWR.

I too see, MNL-YVR-EWR and MNL-HNL-YYZ
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
ZKOJH
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:34 am

You can add MAN to the list as well - PAL have applied for 12 slots at MAN, weather it's for PAX or CARGO nobody knows, but until they get off the EU block list there not going to fly to Europe any time soon.
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Akiestar
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:34 am

Saw this on SkyscraperCity: a new PAL video on service improvements, including:

*A new slogan: "Towards New Altitudes"
*The 77Ws
*New destinations
*Ability to purchase plane tickets at Petron gas stations (Petron is owned by San Miguel)
*In-flight service improvements, including iPads in Y: the first Asian carrier to do so

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWubwjAhlbs

To remain pertinent to this discussion, according to the video, they intend to fly to YYZ, NYC (still think it will be JFK over EWR), LHR, CDG, FRA and FCO with the 77Ws. Not sure though if it can be done non-stop, though the video says they intend to do so.
 
Akiestar
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:36 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 32):
PAL have applied for 12 slots at MAN, weather it's for PAX or CARGO nobody knows

Hm. I haven't heard of PAL launching MAN, but more Europe service is always better! 

It will most likely be passenger service, since PAL does not have any dedicated freighters, should it be launched.
 
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RWA380
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:49 am

As is always the bottom line issue, that comes up with every thread regarding this topic, until Cat 2 goes away, this is all just talk correct? All of this route expansion is hinging on the Cat 2 thing changing, correct? I think we should be figuring out how this can even happen as things are currently, or what is happening now to allow PR to think that this expansion is even a possibility. For goodness sake, PR can't even change the type of aircraft flown into the USA let alone add destinations, what is the real thing that will make this all magically happen in such a rather short period of time, Cat 2 hasn't been able to be changed so far, why now? There was another thread several months back regarding PAL to NYC, that still hasn't happened, as the powers that be, decided the Philippines should remain at Cat 2, just earlier this year.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
jcwr56
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 35):
There was another thread several months back regarding PAL to NYC, that still hasn't happened, as the powers that be, decided the Philippines should remain at Cat 2, just earlier this year.

Without going into a political topic, the fact is with the US refocusing on the Asian rim. The Philippines do and will play an important role, so.....the lifting of Cat 2 to back to Cat 1 isn't as hard when you look at it from a more "wider" issue than just Aviation.

I agree, PR should look at doing baby steps to meet Cat 1 without announcing a more broad sweeping approach. It could easily be argued the US will approve PR to operate to NYC as a test basis, then as they prove themselves open up more routes or get told, sorry it remains the same.

By no means is it all or nothing....
 
Akiestar
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:33 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 36):
I agree, PR should look at doing baby steps to meet Cat 1 without announcing a more broad sweeping approach. It could easily be argued the US will approve PR to operate to NYC as a test basis, then as they prove themselves open up more routes or get told, sorry it remains the same.

By no means is it all or nothing....

Hm? I thought it's not PAL who's in Cat II, but the Philippines in general? So as long as the FAA thinks the CAAP is deficient, the entire country is in Cat II?

As far as I see it, it is all or nothing. There's a lot of frustration on local forums in the Philippines because it seems that the CAAP can't do its job other than issue press releases and appoint ex-PAF generals to the directorship.
 
jcwr56
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:56 pm

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 37):
Hm? I thought it's not PAL who's in Cat II, but the Philippines in general? So as long as the FAA thinks the CAAP is deficient, the entire country is in Cat II?

You're correct, but since PAL seems to be the airline who wants to fly back to Europe and the US, they should be the ones leading the cause and pushing CAAP. Perhaps PR making these announcements is basically saying to the CAAP, the balls in your court so don't make our Country look like morons and get the job done... (no offense).
 
SANFan
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 38):
You're correct, but since PAL seems to be the airline who wants to fly back to Europe and the US, they should be the ones leading the cause and pushing CAAP. Perhaps PR making these announcements is basically saying to the CAAP, the balls in your court so don't make our Country look like morons and get the job done... (no offense).

Except that for PR (including the CEO himself) to be making public remarks such as

Quote:
Philippine Airlines (PAL) will add direct flights to Toronto, Canada by end of this year and service New York, Paris, France, Rome and other destinations in Europe by February, 2013, declared new President Ramon S. Ang.

semingly disregarding this little detail of his airline not being allowed to do any such thing at this time, makes HIM look uninformed (or worse!) (Again, no offense.) I doubt that I am the only one who might interpret this situation this way.

To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Ang probably can't pick up the phone and tell the FAA he'd like to schedule a Safety Audit of the CAAP for the middle of August please becasue he plans on operating flights to New York next February. I don't think it works that way. But hey, what do I know?

bb
 
jcwr56
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 39):
To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Ang probably can't pick up the phone and tell the FAA he'd like to schedule a Safety Audit of the CAAP for the middle of August please becasue he plans on operating flights to New York next February. I don't think it works that way. But hey, what do I know?

Very true and I agree, but sometimes, one needs to look at things from more than an Aviation mindset. Politics always seem to work their way into things. Look at our aviation system and politics and say the two aren't bed fellows at times.

Time will tell...
 
Viscount724
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 31):
Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 29):
PR is looking at MNL-HNL-YYZ and MNL-YVR-EWR.

I too see, MNL-YVR-EWR and MNL-HNL-YYZ

MNL-HNL-YYZ would be a guaranteed loser. That's 20% further than via points like NRT and ICN. MNL is a highly price-sensitive and almost exclusivly low-yield VFR market. It would mean PR would be flying about 3,000 miles further round trip than carriers operating via other Asian hubs. At today's fuel prices, that makes no sense, and travel time would be hours longer, which would mean PR would have to offer even lower fares.

In my opinion, if PR can't operate nonstop MNL-YYZ-MNL with an economic payload, and if they can't obtain 5th freedom rights at points like ICN or NRT, their best option (if the U.S. Category 2 restriction is ever lifted) would be to make a fuel stop at ANC (possibly only westbound), like CX did on HKG-YYZ and BR did on TPE-YYZ for quite a while. ANC is pretty close to the great circle route and would mean much lower operating costs than the very long route via HNL.

MNL-HNL-YYZ 8647 nm

MNL-YYZ nonstop 7143 nm
MNL-ICN-YYZ 7150 nm
MNL-NRT-YYZ 7219 nm
MNL-ANC-YYZ 7252 nm
MNL-HKG-YYZ 7404 nm
 
dennys
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:27 pm

What about the remaining A343 ? On which route will they flown ?
MNL - CDG , Like in 1998 ?
 
Akiestar
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 38):
You're correct, but since PAL seems to be the airline who wants to fly back to Europe and the US, they should be the ones leading the cause and pushing CAAP. Perhaps PR making these announcements is basically saying to the CAAP, the balls in your court so don't make our Country look like morons and get the job done... (no offense).

They are already doing that. In fact, PAL paid for consultants (on its own dime, mind you) to help the CAAP get back to Cat I. Now as to whether or not it left an impact, I'll leave that to other people to judge.

PAL knows what it's doing, but the ball is clearly in the CAAP's (and the Philippine government's) court.
 
YVRSpeedBird
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:38 am

Mr. Ang has already said a few months ago that he's interested in more 77Ws, plus the 787 & 748. I'm inclined to believe that this possible order is leveraged on the condition that the country is lifted from Cat 2. If I recall, the order would be for 4 x 748, 12 x 787 & 4 more 77W on top of the 6 ordered. Not a substantial amount by any means, but a sale is a sale & I won't be surprised if Boeing puts pressure on the FAA re: Cat 1 to secure this order.
 
SANFan
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:10 am

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 44):
I won't be surprised if Boeing puts pressure on the FAA re: Cat 1 to secure this order.

And exactly what form of pressure do you envision Boeing being able to apply to the FAA????? Lower the standards the FAA expects to be met to pass the audit? Maybe look the other way at a few "minor" violations? Sure, no problem.  

And I suppose you also expect Boeing to use their European influence to help PR get exempted from the EU blacklist? I'll be anxious to see how that works out too.

 
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YVRSpeedBird
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:35 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 45):
And exactly what form of pressure do you envision Boeing being able to apply to the FAA????? Lower the standards the FAA expects to be met to pass the audit? Maybe look the other way at a few "minor" violations? Sure, no problem.

Politics has a role in everything - especially in business. Your very own Rep. also tried to apply pressure on the FAA way back when PAL was making noise about serving SAN. But then the economic benefits of that plan doesn't sound as attractive as a couple billion dollars worth of plane orders.

The downgrade itself isn't 100% about safety. There are a lot of MRO's in the Philippines now serving local and foreign airlines... SIA Engineering, Lufthansa Technik to name a few. If safety is an issue, these companies would not be doing business there, and the airlines would not be sending their planes for maintenance there.

I agree that CAAP is mired with problems, but those same problems are found in the aviation authorities of other developing countries (India comes to mind). Do you think Indonesia has really resolved all of their problems in the aviation sector? Of course not, but billions of dollars worth of potential orders from Boeing was a major catalyst in the FAA's decision... with pressure from Boeing and the lawmakers in Washington and Illinois of course!

Mr. Ang is doing his part by playing politics. If only the government would do their part - such as the purchase for the upgrade of the air force fleet which are likely to go to South Korea and Italy now!
 
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RWA380
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:29 am

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 38):
You're correct, but since PAL seems to be the airline who wants to fly back to Europe and the US

I thought Cebu Pacific wanted to offer both US & European flights but have not even pursued those challenges yet do to the Cat 2 rating, why acquire planes if you can't fly them where you wish to fly them to.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 39):
semingly disregarding this little detail of his airline not being allowed to do any such thing at this time, makes HIM look uninformed (or worse!) (Again, no offense.) I doubt that I am the only one who might interpret this situation this way.

Thanks SANFan, this is a more condensed version of what I said, Cat 2 is not something that just goes away, PR has been trying for years, and am I correct that in the past 6 months or so, this was pursued by both sides, and the decision was made to leave it Cat 2 still. That is not something that will just change because PAL wants to fly to NYC. They have been wanting to fly to NYC for a while now, as well as changing aircraft types flown to SFO, LAX, LAS & HNL already.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
jcwr56
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:09 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 47):
That is not something that will just change because PAL wants to fly to NYC. They have been wanting to fly to NYC for a while now, as well as changing aircraft types flown to SFO, LAX, LAS & HNL already.

Again the larger picture is you have new ownership of PAL which has decided to raise standards of the airline itself. By doing so, Mr. Ang is leading by example and now forcing CAAP to look at itself in a different light. The question is, do they (CAAP) have the ability to do so. Lets not forget, PAL both is working both sides of Pacific too and no doubt cities listed above have some vested economic interest to see PAL operate.

Regarding Cebe Pacific, if they really intend to fly both to the US and Europe, then they should take on some of the lead instead of being lazy and demostrate they're serious instead of others do the work for them.

In the end, politics will decide and not a bureaucrat going off a check list.
 
Akiestar
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RE: PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months

Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:35 pm

I ran into this YouTube clip on a local forum, showing a video taken from the PAL launch party for RP-C7775. Basically, we can now confirm which destinations PAL intends to serve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pOXLdRM5MI

So we can confirm that YYZ, NYC, LHR and CDG are in this video, but there's a surprise: PAL intends to fly to MXP as well! It looks like there is a particular focus on restarting European services, which were all discontinued after the Asian financial crisis. (There's also word that PAL intends to serve FRA.)

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