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LAXintl
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BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:40 pm

Kinda strange, but I see the BA007/008 service zero’d out completely in GDS starting Janaury 7th. Its again avail starting February 3rd.

Anyone know whats up?

I know BA-JL in May received final government authority to offer a ATI JV on services between Japan and the EU.
Is this part of some future schedule changes for that?
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jfk777
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Kinda strange, but I see the BA007/008 service zero’d out completely in GDS starting Janaury 7th. Its again avail starting February 3rd.

They are "suspending" service for a month, Narita to LHR will still be flown.
 
by738
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:47 pm

Its a planned schedule change, a large number of long haul have winter period reductions
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:59 pm

Is anyone other than HA making money in Haneda?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:00 pm

OK thanks.

Kinda strange to take an entire month off ha. I guess a frequency reduction would be more common.

Flight must not be doing too hot.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
burnsie28
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:32 pm

Seems that HND isn't working out so well for anyone
 
BA174
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:39 pm

I think BA competes with itself on this route as NRT gets the 777 with full new range of products and IFE whereas HND only gets New First as a maximum. If I were BA I would leave HND as ANAs ground and do double daily NRT.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:50 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 3):
Is anyone other than HA making money in Haneda?
Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 5):
Seems that HND isn't working out so well for anyone

It's not HND specifically, it's the times. And I think Japan knows that--as soon as they open up decent times at HND it will eviscerate NRT.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
G-CIVP
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:10 pm

Quoting BA174 (Reply 6):
If I were BA I would leave HND as ANAs ground and do double daily NRT.

Speculating here, presumably BA dropped the second daily NRT flight due to poor loads prior to the commencement of the HND service. Once the restrictions on foreign airlines out of HND, the stampede out of NRT to HND will be immediate.
 
skipness1E
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:15 pm

LHR-Japan direct has collapsed in recent years. The second daily BA LHR-NRT was dropped alongwith the second daily JAL as well as JAL's LHR-OSA, all gone since 2008. Even that is down on what closed the end of the 1990s.
 
PHX787
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
They are "suspending" service for a month, Narita to LHR will still be flown.
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 9):
LHR-Japan direct has collapsed in recent years. The second daily BA LHR-NRT was dropped alongwith the second daily JAL as well as JAL's LHR-OSA, all gone since 2008. Even that is down on what closed the end of the 1990s.

Somebody over in NRT told me that JAL is thinking about starting HND-LHR service? That didn't make much sense but what do you guys think?
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
It's not HND specifically, it's the times.

Yes, I agree. The window is horrible for landings and takeoffs except for HNL.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 8):
Speculating here, presumably BA dropped the second daily NRT flight due to poor loads prior to the commencement of the HND service. Once the restrictions on foreign airlines out of HND, the stampede out of NRT to HND will be immediate.

Then Tokyo would become another copy of Montreal. The international terminal at HND would be immediately overwhelmed while NRT would either be reborn as LCC heaven, or become a ghost town like PIT.
 
B747-4U3
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:20 pm

I'm surprised that the bilateral isn't being ammended to allow daytime flights at HND for BA.

France has just concluded such an agreement when AF doesn't even fly to Haneda. I would have thought that BA - being the first and only European carrier to serve HND would receive such rights first.

I suspect though, if such an agreement was reached we would a single daily 77W to Haneda and wave goodbye to the Narita flights.
 
rutankrd
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 13):

I'm surprised that the bilateral isn't being ammended to allow daytime flights at HND for BA.

France has just concluded such an agreement when AF doesn't even fly to Haneda. I would have thought that BA - being the first and only European carrier to serve HND would receive such rights first.

Why that would require a decision and sign off on a transport policy by The Rt Hon Justine Greening MP and that would never do !
 
G-CIVP
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
Somebody over in NRT told me that JAL is thinking about starting HND-LHR service? That didn't make much sense but what do you guys think?

It's makes sense due to the proximity of HND to central Tokyo. Business and liesure travellers would lap it up as the commute from Narita to central Tokyo is rather time consuming, some 60 minutes on the train.
 
rutankrd
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 15):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
Somebody over in NRT told me that JAL is thinking about starting HND-LHR service? That didn't make much sense but what do you guys think?

It's makes sense due to the proximity of HND to central Tokyo. Business and liesure travellers would lap it up as the commute from Narita to central Tokyo is rather time consuming, some 60 minutes on the train.

Whist it would in theory make sense what with the multitude of JAL/J-Air connections , those stupid international flight slots at night only rules would hinder JAL as much as BA.

There need to be a window perhaps early afternoon for at least a few long haul flights from/to Haneda to function and operate profitably.
 
PHX787
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 16):
Whist it would in theory make sense what with the multitude of JAL/J-Air connections , those stupid international flight slots at night only rules would hinder JAL as much as BA.

I thought that the night slots were only for international airlines
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
vv701
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:16 pm

For several recent winters BA has used its computerised records to reduce its operations on selected long haul routes by blanking out certain days that historically show a low demand. This particularly applies to routes where there is more than a once daily service so that customers booked on the cancelled "early" flight can still travel (if less conveniently) on the still scheduled "late" flight (or vice versa). This likely means operating a single, quite full aircraft rather than two more-than-half-empty aircraft. This seems to me to make both sound business and environmental sense.

It is certainly unusual to cancel a whole months flights but as can be seen from the thread opener's post here:

BA's W12/13 LHR Mid/Longhaul Schedule Changes (by GSTBA Jul 21 2012 in Civil Aviation)

one of the LHR-SFO flights is also cancelled for a significant run of consecutive days.

A restriction on how many flights can be cancelled in this way is the EU slot "use-it-or-lose-it" regulation which requires that a given slot must be used on a minimum of 80 per cent of possible occasions in any given season if confiscation is to be avoided. A flight disappearing for around a month in the five month winter season means that 80 poer cent of possible flights will (just) be operated. However it is quite easy for any airline with a large number of LHR slots, particularly BA, to slightly reschedule a short haul flight on a few days so that it fills a slot that might otherwise be in danger of confiscation.
 
jumpjets
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 14):
Why that would require a decision and sign off on a transport policy by The Rt Hon Justine Greening MP and that would never do !

This is probably the wrong place to pose this question BUT [and I speak as one of her constituents] is Justine Greening being MP for Putney incompatible with her responsibilities as the Transport secretary?

Does she not have a conflict between implementing an effective transport policy for the nation as a whole, and risking alienating her Putney voters [and risk losing her seat in parliament] by allowing expansion at Heathrow? Just a thought, but its a thought that's been bouncing round in my head for a while.
 
rutankrd
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:34 pm

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 19):
This is probably the wrong place to pose this question BUT [and I speak as one of her constituents] is Justine Greening being MP for Putney incompatible with her responsibilities as the Transport secretary?

Does she not have a conflict between implementing an effective transport policy for the nation as a whole, and risking alienating her Putney voters [and risk losing her seat in parliament] by allowing expansion at Heathrow? Just a thought, but its a thought that's been bouncing round in my head for a while.

Yes she does and thats exactly why the CONLIB Eaton boys chose her . To front the no LHR expansion policy.
In this first parliament they have no intention of making ANY log term commitments on anything really.
 
skipness1E
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:36 pm

It was a well known issue when she was appointed. Cameron was happy to use this to promote his green credentials. Of course, in the real world, this lot of numpties know less than the last lot.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:09 am

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 19):
This is probably the wrong place to pose this question BUT [and I speak as one of her constituents] is Justine Greening being MP for Putney incompatible with her responsibilities as the Transport secretary?

Does she not have a conflict between implementing an effective transport policy for the nation as a whole, and risking alienating her Putney voters [and risk losing her seat in parliament] by allowing expansion at Heathrow? Just a thought, but its a thought that's been bouncing round in my head for a while.

There is speculation she will be moved from Transport in the reshuffle in the Autumn, because the Secretary of State for Transport can hardly approve a radical change in aviation policy when the Member of Parliament for Putney has been so vocal in her opposition to any sort of expansion at Heathrow (i.e. Miss Greening's role as a consituency MP is seen by many to be stopping her fulfilling the wider role of national interest that a Secretary of State must take).

I suspect a third runway will still be ruled out by a new Transport Secretary, but full mixed mode operation at LHR and some possible terminal expansion might be on the cards. Anything more, and I think Greening would resign - unless some major concessions were thrown her way (Just look at the amount of extra tunnelling added into the HS2 scheme around Aylesbury to placate the Member of Parliament for Aylesbury, Cheryl Gillan, who just happens to be in the Cabinet).

Back to topic though! With daytime slots at HND, and a JV with JAL in place, I could see BA and JL operating twice daily on LHR-HND with 77Ws, while one of the carriers might keep up a daily LHR-NRT flight on the 787. I think BA wants to stick out LHR-HND so that should the slot timings issue be resolved they have a better chance as an incumbent of getting early dibs on decent slots.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
DrColenzo
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:52 am

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 12):

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 8):
Speculating here, presumably BA dropped the second daily NRT flight due to poor loads prior to the commencement of the HND service. Once the restrictions on foreign airlines out of HND, the stampede out of NRT to HND will be immediate.

Then Tokyo would become another copy of Montreal. The international terminal at HND would be immediately overwhelmed while NRT would either be reborn as LCC heaven, or become a ghost town like PIT.

Absolutely spot on; whilst there will be an international expansion at HND the very nature of economic policy making in Japan will not allow NRT to be adversely affected, particularly as it is a major employer in a region blighted by the Tohoku earthquake and tsunami of 2011.

There is another reason NRT doesn't look bad, which is.... (drum roll!)

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 15):
It's makes sense due to the proximity of HND to central Tokyo. Business and liesure travellers would lap it up as the commute from Narita to central Tokyo is rather time consuming, some 60 minutes on the train.

Is one of the biggest fallacies concerning the relative merits of HND vs NRT; with either the JR service (55 minutes) or the much faster Keisei Skyliner (40 minutes) one spends all that time on one's backside and ends up in central Tokyo where one needs to be, particularly for me as the JR service will take me directly to Shinjuku station once an hour and that is where I need to be.

However, HND is closer to the city centre and has the pretty cool monorail, but the journey to somewhere like Ueno or Shinjuku is a royal pain in the rectum and involves a lot of change and takes...roughly an hour! Trust me, I have literally done NRT to the city many times and HND a few and if you are feeling groggy after a 12 - 14 hour flight, travelling on the Narita Express or the Skyliner is much, much preferable to mucking about with travelling from Haneda.
 
sr117
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:18 am

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 23):
However, HND is closer to the city centre and has the pretty cool monorail, but the journey to somewhere like Ueno or Shinjuku is a royal pain in the rectum and involves a lot of change and takes...roughly an hour! Trust me, I have literally done NRT to the city many times and HND a few and if you are feeling groggy after a 12 - 14 hour flight, travelling on the Narita Express or the Skyliner is much, much preferable to mucking about with travelling from Haneda.

Come now, transferring from the Monorail to the Yamanote Line for Ueno/Tokyo/Shinjuku/Shibuya is easy as pie   just down one or two flights of stairs and you are done, just one change. There's also direct train service from Haneda to Asakusa.

You also have multiple lines of limousine buses that take around 30 minutes or less to reach downtown Tokyo (at around 1000 yen or less, vs 3000 yen and 60+ minutes from Narita)

Access to the Yokohama in the south is also only 30 minutes and around 500 yen, vs 90 minutes and a whopping 3000 yen on the Narita Express.

While on board travel times to some destinations might be similar thanks to the brand new Skyliner, frequency on those express services is still not as high as the Monorail or the Keikyu line which can add to overall travel times. You just mentioned it, the direct to Shinjuku leaves once an hour !

I will concede that the Keisei and Narita Express are more plush and comfortable vs the more commuter type options from Haneda, but if you're staying anywhere else other than Tokyo/Ueno/Shinjuku, you'll probably have to get down and dirty on the town with your bags eventually. Unless you take the taxi or a limo bus of course.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 13):
France has just concluded such an agreement when AF doesn't even fly to Haneda. I would have thought that BA - being the first and only European carrier to serve HND would receive such rights first.

How's that? France got daytime slots into HND??

[Edited 2012-07-25 01:21:23]
 
DrColenzo
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:29 am

Quoting SR117 (Reply 24):
transferring from the Monorail to the Yamanote Line for Ueno/Tokyo/Shinjuku/Shibuya is easy as pie

Come on, using the Yamanote Line successfully with jet lag and bags depends on the time of day and ultimately what mood you are in and I have never, ever done the trip to central Tokyo in much less than an hour from Haneda.

Seriously, I find coming in from Narita much, much easier than Haneda although as a completely lazy academic I prefer sitting down until my destination and as my journey usually starts in North London and has 90 minutes of Piccadilly Line hell until the lounge, I prefer to have travel hell at the non-jetlag/hangover end of my journey  

Haneda makes sense, I guess, from a business point of view not due to its proximity to Tokyo but rather the economically important Tokyo-Nagoya-Osaka corridor and the cluster of firms just to the west of Tokyo, which do suffer from their lack of proximity to Narita.
 
G-CIVP
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:06 am

Where travel from HND wins is the frequency of the monorail services to Hamamatucho, then the transfer to the JR loop line. The bind at NRT is waiting for the half hourly service at NRT, especially if you have missed the preceeding service by five minutes!
 
mdavies06
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:10 am

I think BA has done extremely well having held onto this route with such ghastly departure time at haneda. If and when their ati with JL come into place the two airlines ought to consider having JL do the flying instead, as JL is in a better position to make the aircraft rotation work given the slot constraints at haneda.
 
edina
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:28 am

The Japanese business community in London won't touch the route for two reasons....not only is the schedule very poor - it does little to attract premium flyers. Secondly, they value the presence of Japanese NRT based crew on the Narita service & see the HND route as sub par, due to the fact that the are no NRT based crew on HND flights....it is wholly crewed from LHR. Some LHR based Japanese speaking crew have been recruited to cover the HND flights, but only a handful are actually Japanese - most are former JL & NH European based crew.

My partner works for a consortium of Japanese shipowners in the City, & his organisation generates approximately 20-25 round trip LON-TYO roundtrips in J or W class monthly & the corporate policy is to use either BA or VS NRT services only.
Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
 
DrColenzo
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:58 am

Quoting edina (Reply 28):
My partner works for a consortium of Japanese shipowners in the City, & his organisation generates approximately 20-25 round trip LON-TYO roundtrips in J or W class monthly & the corporate policy is to use either BA or VS NRT services only.

That sounds about right
 
G-CIVP
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:03 pm

Got to agree with edina, if the HND route timing was at more civil hours, especially the departure from HND to LHR, I think you would get more interest.

Digressing, where do the NRT based BA crew stay while they are in London? Don't tell me the Ibis at LHR?!!
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:41 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 18):
However it is quite easy for any airline with a large number of LHR slots, particularly BA, to slightly reschedule a short haul flight on a few days so that it fills a slot that might otherwise be in danger of confiscation.

You are our expert on slots, but I don't think it works like that.
I believe that the slots are tied to a flight number. So if you have a daily slot for BA113 at 1030, then 80pc of BA113 must operate, not 80pc of 1030 slots.

On an internal BA website there is a folder to do with slots, and one list is flights that are at risk because a lot have not operated, and they must not be cancelled in the future.
Ops control uses this in days of mass cancellations and these flights stay operating.
The 80pc rule is taken very seriously.
 
BA174
Posts: 291
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 30):
Got to agree with edina, if the HND route timing was at more civil hours, especially the departure from HND to LHR, I think you would get more interest.

Digressing, where do the NRT based BA crew stay while they are in London? Don't tell me the Ibis at LHR?!!

I doubt they will be allowed to say but I jeavily doubt they use the Ibis at LHR.
 
G-CIVP
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:40 pm

BA174 - probably but I've seen BA crew use the Ibis, much to my disbelief.
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2570
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:13 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 3):
Is anyone other than HA making money in Haneda?

For NH & JL, it's their bread and butter, especially domestic.
I suspect most of the Asian airlines, whether be it Chinese, Korean, Taiwanese whom are exempt from the daytime slot rules, aren't complaining. For the SE Asian airlines like SQ & TG, their HND operation complements their NRT services where the curfew at NRT make it impossible to operate certain flights that are doable at HND.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 13):
I'm surprised that the bilateral isn't being ammended to allow daytime flights at HND for BA.

Because HND is a first and foremost domestic and short-haul int'l airport. Everything else should be at NRT outside of its curfew hours. If the Japanese Ministry of Transport allows daytime access to HND for a long-haul carrier, there will be no end. It will just upset other countries that cannot negotiate daytime HND slots.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 16):
There need to be a window perhaps early afternoon for at least a few long haul flights from/to Haneda to function and operate profitably.

See above reply. Go to NRT for those services.


In the perfect world, JL should be operating a HND-LHR with the westbound service being a red-eye. The most optimal equipment is a 77W, but JL is a little short on long-haul aircraft since the retirement of their 744 fleet and delays on the 788.
 
edina
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:53 pm

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 33):

The Ibis is not used in an official capacity, but many commuting crew use it in preference to staying at a local B&B pre/post trip as it's more consistent & only marginally more expensive.
Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
 
vv701
Posts: 5805
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:49 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 31):
I believe that the slots are tied to a flight number.

On reflectioin this is almost certainly correct. If it were not flight number - call sign related, Airport Coordination Ltd, who are responsible for monitoring slot useage, would find it almost impossible to monitor the situation.

There were two classic examples of slot sitting. One was the BAe 146 operated on behalf of QF between LHR and MAN:

Qantas Flying To Manchester (by L1011aaron Jun 7 2004 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=1601094&searchid=1603647&s=qantas+flying+to+manchester#ID1603647

The other was a regular ferry flight by a BMed 320 that was parked at CWL before being ferried back to LHR on an almost daily basis:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6441103.stm

But I suspect that both of these flights operated long enough - that is for a complete season - for the flight number to be used for monitoring purposes.
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
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RE: BA Dropping LHR-HND?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:46 am

Quoting carpethead (Reply 34):

Airline routes reported on the 9th July that in the new France - Japan bilateral it had been agreed that each side would have 2 daily daytime slots from Haneda when the number of slots there increase from 30,000 to 60,000.

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