Gonzalo
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:08 am

What really confuses me is that first the crew decided to divert to Abilene,TX, but Abilene's runway 17R was closed and airport management had imposed a weight limit on runway 17L which was exceeded by the aircraft....What happened with the NOTAM indicating this critical information for the pilots ?
And the other uncommon situation, they landed finally in Dyess Air Force Base... how often are scheduled passenger flights landing in Air Force Bases in the US ( obviously excluding Joint Civil-military airports ) ?... I guess the number is low giving the big number of facilities available all over the country ?


http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4532c038&opt=0


Thanks for your help !!

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roseflyer
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:23 am

From the article it looks like Abilene was likely filed as the diversion airport without knowledge of the runway limitations. This looks like a mistake by dispatch. It does happen from time to time that the filed diversion airport is not available.

In the case of a fuel emergency, the airplane can land at any available airfield. Obviously an Air Force base is not ideal, but I am assuming those pilots were willing to land anywhere once they found out that they were not able to go to their filed alternate and had to declare a fuel emergency.

Of course the NOTAM also said except in emergency, so they could have landed at Abilene although they may have ended up grounded there if an overweight landing inspection was required on the runway.
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tb727
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:23 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
What happened with the NOTAM indicating this critical information for the pilots ?

Unless ABI was their flight-planned alternate before they left PHX(which I doubt given the runway closure issue)it would be hard to have the NOTAM's for the airport readily available to them with their paperwork. They probably either received it on the ATIS or from approach and had to go with what they had at hand at that point, they were probably too low on fuel to go to LBB or something like that.
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Maverick623
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:26 am

If I didn't know any better, it sounds like the pilots wanted to make an example of a perceived ridiculousness of the weight restriction at ABI, since they could have landed on it anyways due to the fuel emergency.

Since I do know better, it sounds like the pilots were just playing it extra safe.  
Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
And the other uncommon situation, they landed finally in Dyess Air Force Base... how often are scheduled passenger flights landing in Air Force Bases in the US

Rare, but not unheard of. I recall an incident about 10 years ago where a Southwest plane landed at Luke AFB (about 20 miles NW of PHX) because they were critically low on fuel. They got a pretty stern talking to by the Air Force, and I think the FAA was all over them for waiting so long to divert somewhere.

Also I recall an incident where an airline flight (NW?) accidentally landed at Ellsworth AFB, mistaking the runway for RAP (whose runways are nearly perfectly aligned about 6 miles apart)
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FI642
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:31 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 3):
Rare, but not unheard of. I recall an incident about 10 years ago where a Southwest plane landed at Luke AFB (about 20 miles NW of PHX) because they were critically low on fuel. They got a pretty stern talking to by the Air Force, and I think the FAA was all over them for waiting so long to divert somewhere.

Allow me to verify that Luke Field takes things VERY seriously. Oh boy!
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geg2rap
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:34 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 3):
Also I recall an incident where an airline flight (NW?) accidentally landed at Ellsworth AFB, mistaking the runway for RAP (whose runways are nearly perfectly aligned about 6 miles apart)

Yep, was a NW A319.
RCA (ellsworth) is 13/31
RAP is 14/32.
 
PHX787
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:41 am

This is a little strange...they didn't fuel the 319 as much as usual, quite obviously. Those things can go trans-con from PHX. I see planes go into holds around PHX all the time and the only time they divert is if they're going to TUS, but usually after circling for about 40-50 minutes. How long were they circling?
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Maverick623
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting FI642 (Reply 4):
Allow me to verify that Luke Field takes things VERY seriously. Oh boy!

Oh, I can vouch for it. Been on the flightline twice, and was told in no uncertain terms to NEVER cross the solid red line and not to even think about wandering off.

I found a recent article from a LUF publication that referenced the landing (it happened in 1998), where one of the Airmen talked about the incident, and how they kept the passengers fed and watered, but I distinctly remember the news reports that the FAA was furious about it.
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jetjack74
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:53 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):
Oh, I can vouch for it. Been on the flightline twice, and was told in no uncertain terms to NEVER cross the solid red line and not to even think about wandering off.

Well, that's pretty much the rule at any AFB, not just Luke. Being an aircrewman in the military and an FA in the airlines, i've seen both being disciplined by Security Forces. I've seen senior flight officers, pilots reamed out by junior enlisted AF Airlines (Argentina)">SF's for crossing the red line, as well as civilian flight crew who are clueless about those rules, having done very few military charters and still being read the riot-act. And I have never seen lax flight-line rules at any USAF instillation, and i've flown into almost all of them. The Navy, that's a completely different story. The Navy doesn't really bother you walking across the flight-line unless you're heading towards an active taxi/runway.
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HAL
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:15 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
This is a little strange...they didn't fuel the 319 as much as usual, quite obviously. Those things can go trans-con from PHX. I see planes go into holds around PHX all the time and the only time they divert is if they're going to TUS, but usually after circling for about 40-50 minutes. How long were they circling?

Sure, they can go trans-con - if they fill the tanks up. But no airline ever just 'fills the tanks' for a flight. They look at the planned route, weather, and payload to determine how much fuel the flight will need. Fuel is added for alternates, and often for holding if it's expected. They don't overfill the tanks, because that would be a waste of fuel, since it costs fuel to carry the unused extra around in the tanks. They carry what is necessary for a safe flight, but no more.

The article does not specify how long they held while waiting for the weather to clear at DFW, or where they held either. The Captain has to make the decision on when to divert given the remaining fuel, and how much they need to get to the alternate, plus having some reserve after that.

To say they didn't fuel the 319 as much as usual isn't correct, since you don't know how long they held, and what contingencies they were fueled for in the first place.

HAL
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checksixx
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:03 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 3):
Rare, but not unheard of. I recall an incident about 10 years ago where a Southwest plane landed at Luke AFB (about 20 miles NW of PHX) because they were critically low on fuel. They got a pretty stern talking to by the Air Force, and I think the FAA was all over them for waiting so long to divert somewhere.

Seriously?? What, did the Air Force tell them...to just crash next time? No way.

The only time a commercial crew would get a stern talking too is if they landed without clearance, or by accident...a crew calling an emergency could request to land at the nearest military installation with a runway that could accommodate the aircraft without recourse from the AF. Not to mention, commercial (chartered) flights land at military airbases all the time so its nothing out of the ordinary...aside from whatever emergency they've encountered.
 
PanHAM
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:22 am

What seems to be the problem to land, in case of an emergency, at an AFB? The tax payers, and that includes corporations, paid for the bases and the air force can bill the carrier for the use and the refueling.
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Gonzalo
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:57 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
What seems to be the problem to land, in case of an emergency, at an AFB?

I guess there is no problem when the AFB is the only and last option, but that was the thing that call my attention in the first place, I found a little strange that in a country with one of the best ( or THE best ) airport infrastructure in the world this crew selected a military airport, where for obvious reasons, you can have some National Security issues ( like people watching to - or taking photos of - facilities and equipments that they shouldn't ) , lack of adequate equipment to bring service to a crowd of civilians, etc. I know the 99.9 % of the people on board of a flight can't say the difference between a F-16 and a C-130, but still, the AFB are restricted to civilians for a reason, and not only in the USA.

Rgds.

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PanHAM
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:41 pm

Quick search at airnav.com results that Dyess AFB is 9 miles from ABI whereas the next nearest nearest alternate is about 40 miles and that runway is real short for an A319.

As to the pictures, not much more than can be seen on google earth is visible from the ground. I remember when that NW 319 landed at ellsworth passengers had to pull the shades down. How many pictiures of B52s are there in the files here?

Most of the times, AFB's have public days, so what's the big deal. Park the aircraft at a remote stand, fuel up and go. The pilots are civilians and not subject to military rules and regulations. If an airman thinks he can "pull rank" over a flight captain, the captain should have some polite words requesting to change his tone.
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kc135topboom
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:01 pm

Quoting checksixx (Reply 10):
What, did the Air Force tell them...to just crash next time?

Any USAF base will accept any aircraft in an emergency at any time. But any unknown civilian aircraft landing at a base unannounced or unscheduled is going to be questioned. The flight crew had better have a good reason. Their presence disrupts the military bases operations, perticularly when weapons are being moved or when they have weapons loaded aircraft parked on the ramp. The USAF is not going to tell you when they are having an exercise or anything about the training when weapons and classified equipment is on or moved to/from an aircraft.

I might point out that DYS B-1Bs and C-130Js currently assigned to the 7th Bomb Wing and the 317th Airlift Group.
 
tp1040
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:28 pm

Interesting that ABI has a weight limit. Does anyone know why an airport with two 7200 foot runways can't take a 319? That kind of weight limit would seem to be a deterrent to airport business expansion.

My only guess that the restriction is temporary due to the Texas heat and the primary runways are asphalt.
 
bueb0g
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
This is a little strange...they didn't fuel the 319 as much as usual, quite obviously. Those things can go trans-con from PHX.

You hardly ever fill tanks on an airliner fully.
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fsnuffer
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:41 pm

Back in 1987 when I was at Scott AFB, a TWA 767 made an emergency landing due to the right main gear being stuck. The pilot chose Scott AFB over Lambert due to the base hospital being near by and the availability of heavy crash equipment.


http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19870822-0
 
vikkyvik
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
This looks like a mistake by dispatch. It does happen from time to time that the filed diversion airport is not available.

I'd assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that there are more/better checks in place for ETOPS flights, right? Can't imagine you'd like to lose an engine and then find out your filed diversion airport is closed....
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TVNWZ
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:01 pm

And it happens the other way around. Last week a C-17 Globemaster mistook tiny general aviation airport's very short runways for MacDill AFB with runways a lot l o n g e r. Quite a surprise for the GenAv folks.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/artic...ne-lands-at-Peter-O-Knight-Airport
 
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
As to the pictures, not much more than can be seen on google earth is visible from the ground. I remember when that NW 319 landed at ellsworth passengers had to pull the shades down. How many pictiures of B52s are there in the files here?

Ellsworth is a B1 base, so at the time this happened it may have been a little more sensitive. At one time the B1 was considered a somewhat secret aircraft. The general public is overall a lot more aware of the B52.
 
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par13del
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
I remember when that NW 319 landed at ellsworth passengers had to pull the shades down. How many pictiures of B52s are there in the files here?

Ahh, but imagine if they had seen armed guards standing around a bomber with crews working, imagine the press concerning the nuclear bombs that were being loaded, was it for training, ferry to disposal, where they live, etc etc. etc.

A base is usually sealed because a number of private / sensitve / secret things take place, would make satellites a waste of time if nothing could be learned.
 
Maverick623
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting checksixx (Reply 10):
Seriously?? What, did the Air Force tell them...to just crash next time? No way

I think it had something to do with the availability of other airports in the area. TUS may have been boxed in, but GYR and PRC are well within reach and can accept 737s.
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roseflyer
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 18):

I'd assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that there are more/better checks in place for ETOPS flights, right? Can't imagine you'd like to lose an engine and then find out your filed diversion airport is closed....

I made some assumptions. First was that Abilene was filed as an alternate in the flight plan which may or may not be true. From the NOTAM in the article it is not clear to me when Abilene’s runway closed. If it closed after the flight plan was created, then I am not surprised that the NOTAM was missed. If the NOTAM was issued before the flight was dispatched, then Abilene should not have been allowed as an alternate and dispatch should not have planned that.

This happened a few days ago, so I don’t know if weather in DFW required a filed diversion airport ahead of time or it was an enroute decision.

ETOPS diversion airports are a different requirement. For an ETOPS flight, the airplane must always be within single engine cruise distance of an airport capable of accepting (but not necessarily servicing) the airplane. Sometimes important diversion airports like KEF closing can impact the routing of airplanes flying ETOPS.
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93Sierra
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:52 pm

This seems very uneventful and boring
 
aztrainer
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):
I think it had something to do with the availability of other airports in the area. TUS may have been boxed in, but GYR and PRC are well within reach and can accept 737s.

As is IWA, AVW. I also wonder if it was due to the straight shot in from the west that Luke has vs GYR and the mountains to the south?

OK, I know they were circling waiting for the storm front to clear. BUT since this was a PHX flight leaving at 12:42 MST during summer. Could they have also been weight restricted upon take-off and that is why they had a smaller window?
 
Gonzalo
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:19 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 23):
This happened a few days ago, so I don’t know if weather in DFW required a filed diversion airport ahead of time or it was an enroute decision.

I think a couple of diversion points already checked and confirmed before take off should be a mandatory practice for all the pilots, regardless the weather forecast. The original destination ( and even your first alternate ) can be affected by a number of situations that can obligate to shut down the airport ( accidents in the runway, fires, bomb threats, disabled aircraft..... ) and start to look for an alternate place to land when you are in the air, only distracts you from other tasks in the cockpit. Having a note with a couple of airport codes in the pocket of your shirt only takes two minutes. ( But that is just my opinion, and can be totally wrong ).

Rgds.

G.
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smittyone
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:46 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
The pilots are civilians and not subject to military rules and regulations. If an airman thinks he can "pull rank" over a flight captain, the captain should have some polite words requesting to change his tone.

Where are you getting this from? Civilians most certainly ARE subject to the rules and regulations of the military installation.

If a civilian violates a restricted area on a military installation, he or she should expect to receive very specific instructions from the security force protecting it. Ideally delivered in a professional manner but binding regardless!

The concept of 'rank' is not relevant to the situation.
 
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):
Oh, I can vouch for it. Been on the flightline twice, and was told in no uncertain terms to NEVER cross the solid red line and not to even think about wandering off.

What exactly is this line, something similar to parking 'boxes' at civilian airports?
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spink
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
As to the pictures, not much more than can be seen on google earth is visible from the ground. I remember when that NW 319 landed at ellsworth passengers had to pull the shades down. How many pictiures of B52s are there in the files here?

There are plenty of normal operations that can take place at an air force base, esp a base with a large bomber wing that are not intended for public eyes. And while a satellite can see outside, it cannot see inside hangers or under planes.

Quote:
Most of the times, AFB's have public days, so what's the big deal. Park the aircraft at a remote stand, fuel up and go. The pilots are civilians and not subject to military rules and regulations. If an airman thinks he can "pull rank" over a flight captain, the captain should have some polite words requesting to change his tone.

Public days are scheduled and specifically scheduled so that nothing sensitive will be ongoing. It isn't like they throw a dart and decide to have a public day.

Anyone on a military or government facility is subject to the rules and regulations of that facility. Same applies for a private facility though the threshold for being shot at is generally higher. Places that have active high yield weapons tend to have even lower thresholds for being shot at. If you are a non-military pilot at a military base then it is advisable to do exactly what they tell you for two important reasons: A) they own the base and reserve the right to use force. B) you are likely there working on contract for the military or using their facilities through their good graces, both of which mean that everyone there outranks you.
 
Viscount724
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US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 3):
Also I recall an incident where an airline flight (NW?) accidentally landed at Ellsworth AFB, mistaking the runway for RAP (whose runways are nearly perfectly aligned about 6 miles apart)
Quoting GEG2RAP (Reply 5):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 3):
Also I recall an incident where an airline flight (NW?) accidentally landed at Ellsworth AFB, mistaking the runway for RAP (whose runways are nearly perfectly aligned about 6 miles apart)

Yep, was a NW A319.
RCA (ellsworth) is 13/31
RAP is 14/32.

June 2004.
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123008013
 
zanl188
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RE: US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:26 pm

Quoting checksixx (Reply 10):
The only time a commercial crew would get a stern talking too is if they landed without clearance, or by accident...a crew calling an emergency could request to land at the nearest military installation with a runway that could accommodate the aircraft without recourse from the AF. Not to mention, commercial (chartered) flights land at military airbases all the time so its nothing out of the ordinary...aside from whatever emergency they've encountered.

A PPR is required for ANY transient aircraft to land at a USAF base, not only to provide notice & receive permission but to ensure the airspace is actually available at the required time. For example many Air Force airfields can also be used as drop zones. If the drop zone is in use the runway is closed. Varies depending upon the situation but I can foresee situations where the airfield would be closed even to an emergency aircraft - say if jumpers & equipment were already on the way down.
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flightsimer
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RE: US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:59 pm

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 19):

Here is a much better version of the landing that was spliced into the news video.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l6n29Ie2f7w

Lmao that guy in the video is such a noob... "how in the hell did he stop on that [runway-3400ft]." and " it will never be able to get out of here."

Instead of freaking out I would be like... "please land here, please land here... YES! That was so freaking cool!!! Do it again!!!"

Well if they ever have air shows there, they now know they can get a C-17 in for it lol. Better make sure all the other aircraft are there first though lol.

And takeoff:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J7SE-0tD2HE

I love the c-17... Such a bad ass plane.
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kc135topboom
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RE: US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:32 pm

Quoting Dufo (Reply 28):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):Oh, I can vouch for it. Been on the flightline twice, and was told in no uncertain terms to NEVER cross the solid red line and not to even think about wandering off.
What exactly is this line, something similar to parking 'boxes' at civilian airports?

A red line on the flightline of a military base is the security line. Stay on the unsecure side and everthing is alright, cross into the security and you can expect, at a minimum to be spread eagle on the ground, no matter if it is raining, snowing, ice, etc, with several armed guards pointing M-16s at you until someone comes along and handcuffs you. It doesn't matter if you are a 4 star general or a civilian, if you are not authorized to be inside the red line, you will be challanged and very possibly arrested. It charge for civilians is CRIMINAL TRESPASS ON FEDERAL LAND OR INTO A FEDERAL SPECIAL SECURITY AREA. You can be find and/or sent to jail. Trial will be in a federal court, for civilians, and this is a federal felony.
 
IADCA
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RE: US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:23 am

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 15):
Interesting that ABI has a weight limit. Does anyone know why an airport with two 7200 foot runways can't take a 319? That kind of weight limit would seem to be a deterrent to airport business expansion.

My only guess that the restriction is temporary due to the Texas heat and the primary runways are asphalt.
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 23):
I made some assumptions. First was that Abilene was filed as an alternate in the flight plan which may or may not be true. From the NOTAM in the article it is not clear to me when Abilene’s runway closed. If it closed after the flight plan was created, then I am not surprised that the NOTAM was missed. If the NOTAM was issued before the flight was dispatched, then Abilene should not have been allowed as an alternate and dispatch should not have planned that.

This happened a few days ago, so I don’t know if weather in DFW required a filed diversion airport ahead of time or it was an enroute decision.

ETOPS diversion airports are a different requirement. For an ETOPS flight, the airplane must always be within single engine cruise distance of an airport capable of accepting (but not necessarily servicing) the airplane. Sometimes important diversion airports like KEF closing can impact the routing of airplanes flying ETOPS.

I don't know any specifics about this situation, but a couple summers ago (on a hot August day) I was on an SJC-DFW flight that got diverted because of storms at DFW. We first headed to AUS, but that was already full so we then diverted to ABI, where we were the sixth or seventh M80 already in. Ramp was full so we stayed on a taxiway. I do recall seeing the AFB as we circled to land. So ABI can definitely handle larger aircraft, but it wasn't the primary alternate in my case - that might explain the low fuel if it was diverted from a diversion.
 
checksixx
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RE: US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:41 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
The pilots are civilians and not subject to military rules and regulations. If an airman thinks he can "pull rank" over a flight captain, the captain should have some polite words requesting to change his tone.

VERY much incorrect sir. While on ANY military installation ALL personnel are subject to the UCMJ and Federal/Local laws. Trust me, any airman that gives that captain a lawful order, will be obeyed. There will be no tone adjustment.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
Quoting checksixx (Reply 10):
What, did the Air Force tell them...to just crash next time?

Any USAF base will accept any aircraft in an emergency at any time. But any unknown civilian aircraft landing at a base unannounced or unscheduled is going to be questioned. The flight crew had better have a good reason. Their presence disrupts the military bases operations, perticularly when weapons are being moved or when they have weapons loaded aircraft parked on the ramp. The USAF is not going to tell you when they are having an exercise or anything about the training when weapons and classified equipment is on or moved to/from an aircraft.

I was in the Air Force for years, I already know this...can you answer my question? What did the air force supposedly tell this crew that landed with an IFE?

Quoting Dufo (Reply 28):
What exactly is this line, something similar to parking 'boxes' at civilian airports?

It denotes a restricted area boundary.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 31):
A PPR is required for ANY transient aircraft to land at a USAF base

Almost irrelevant to my point you quoted, but correct for those who don't know.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
It charge for civilians is CRIMINAL TRESPASS ON FEDERAL LAND OR INTO A FEDERAL SPECIAL SECURITY AREA.

Incorrect charges, but everyone here should get the point. Its a restricted area, there are signs posted/placed/painted denoting it as such and the area is usually (on a flightline) marked by a red painted line or red rope and stanchions.
 
Maverick623
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RE: US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):

What I was saying was that even if you're authorized into the restricted area, you can only cross at designated points. There are areas where a barrier is unavailable, so they paint a solid red line with breaks in it.... you may only cross at the breaks. Step over the big red line, no matter what, and you will (at the very least) get a royal ass chewing.

Quoting checksixx (Reply 35):
VERY much incorrect sir. While on ANY military installation ALL personnel are subject to the UCMJ and Federal/Local laws.

Slow down there... he was referring to a civilian pilot at a military installation. While they are subject to normal federal trespass laws, they are not subject to the UCMJ.

Quoting checksixx (Reply 35):

I was in the Air Force for years, I already know this...can you answer my question? What did the air force supposedly tell this crew that landed with an IFE?

Allow me to apologize for the confusion: I had mixed up the NW landing at RCA with the WN landing at LUF. WN was not hassled by the Air Force, but they did get an earful from the FAA.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
a/c dxer
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RE: US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:06 pm

Couple of things.

First off a air force base can be used as alternate and landed on as a alternate. Elmendorf is good example as it i near Anchorage and the only suitable altenate within a hour. Some you defiantely dont use like KADW.

As far as the diversion it will be human error but a error that could happen to any dispatcher. Your expected to keep up with all notams that could effect your flght. But at the same time you have to build the next flight / flight follow and
handle any emergencies that come up. Im not 4 or 5 flights but 20 - 40 flights.

If the flight didt have Abilne as the original altenate the it would have been easy to miss the NOTAM in the heat of the moment.
 
txjim
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RE: US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:07 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
Stay on the unsecure side and everthing is alright, cross into the security and you can expect, at a minimum to be spread eagle on the ground, no matter if it is raining, snowing, ice, etc, with several armed guards pointing M-16s at you until someone comes along and handcuffs you. It doesn't matter if you are a 4 star general or a civilian,

Had a program manager who felt compelled to join the engineering crew working on the electronics in a certain aircraft. He did not take the warnings seriousaly and found himself face down on the ground with multiple weapons pointed at him. On the plus side he never stepped foot on an airbase again, much to the delight of the engineering staff.

I'm told the guards live for the day they can take a contractor down!
 
zanl188
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RE: US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting checksixx (Reply 35):
Almost irrelevant to my point you quoted, but correct for those who don't know.

I think I grabbed the wrong quote.....

My point was that this:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
Any USAF base will accept any aircraft in an emergency at any time.

is not necessarily true.... Jumpers, existing emergency, jettisoned stores etc on the airfield will close the airspace to emergency aircraft... Of course ORM will apply and someone will have to make the tough call....
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eskimotail
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RE: US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:25 pm

Talk about taking things seriously:
During 21 years as a US Cost Guard Helicopter crew had to seriously violate "Military areas" areas 3 times.

1) During Mariel Cuba boat lift we declared a mayday due to a dual generator failure with smoke in cabin. Received vectors to USS Ponce about 40 miles away, during approach flew over and spotted people in the water. Quick discussion between crew and we elected to circle, hover, and hoist as many as we could. Situation was stable with the helo, smoke had dissipated with generators being secured. Apparently we disappeared from radar during the hover, lost comms with the ship as we were below line of sight and were in Cuban airspace during last radar contact. After about 10 minutes we pulled out of hover proceeded to ship and were met with a particularly livid Air Boss and Commanding Officer. Aircraft Commander showed them the 10 wet survivors (some children) and all was forgiven.

2) During cross country ferry flight landed at Dyess to RON with proper PPR in hand. When we landed there 4-5 Bones on the flight line. We parked on the Transient Alert line and went to dinner and bed. While we slept, Ronald Reagan canceled the full time airborne nuclear alert posture, and when we woke up and went to flightline there we 20 or so Bones lined up with full guards. We were escorted by armed guards 1 to 1 the entire preflight process, towed to the hold short line under armed escort. forced to fly a downwind departure to avoid flying over the aircraft and bunkers. Of course no "confirm or deny of the presence of special weapons" but they were definitely serious.

3) Off coast of California during a long range medevac, declared a low fuel emergency and received vectors to USS Independence. They were just out of years of shipyard and were catching and launching aircraft from the entire west coast for practice. They had to do something on the order of 3,000 TOs and landings in 10 days. Entire pattern was insulated/cleared for us to land, hot refuel and pick up a medic off the ship. They were receptive and cooperative until the intensive RF field on the deck discharged the fire bottle squibs and there we sat broken and unable to fold the blades to make us more compact. Their airborne SAR helo had to finish the medevac so they were additionally delayed from resuming flight ops until they could get another helo airborne. Fortunately no aircraft other than their SAR cover helos were assigned so there was plenty of room with our main wheels backed up to the lip of the edge of the flight deck. plenty of room means 3-4 feet of clearance between our blade tips and the foul line (ie landing area). The next morning we provided additional challenge to the Air Boss as our copilot got lost between the bridge and the flight deck and a 15 minute launch window stretched to 30 plus.

The military will make any effort to handle emergencies or urgent needs, however you will be subject to their rules while on their facility. In civilian realm the FAA could care less were you terminate your emergency, just that you got there in the first place.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: US A319 Landed At Dyess AFB After Fuel Emergency

Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:38 am

When I was working on my instrument rating we'd fly practice ILS approaches into Barksdale AFB at night. We could complete the approach and fly down the runway but we were warned by Barksdale tower that we could not touch down. If we did there would be "consequences". We never did but the flight line full of B-52's did look quite ominous in the lights from the hangars at night.
We could do ILS & PAR approaches which really were a lot of fun. We usually were the only aircraft in the area at the time.
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