xdlx
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Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:25 pm

The end of a nice ride....

To all that participated in this great airline, from Navajos to CR9..... BEST PAID TILL LAST DAY!
 
FWA2500
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:29 pm

it has been fun!

OH CVG GND.
ex-OH@CVG
 
stlgph
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:32 pm

Press release says 'no reductions in flights are planned in Cincinnati as a result of this decision.'

I also included the letter to employees below.

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1676


To All Comair Employees
From Ryan Gumm, President
Subject Comair to Cease Operations
Date July 27, 2012

All,

Today, I am writing to let you know that Delta has made the difficult decision to cease Comair's operations after September 29, 2012.

Delta recently announced its intent to reduce the overall number of 50-seat regional jets in its network from nearly 350 to 125 or fewer in light of the significant changes in the economic and competitive conditions in the airline industry. We believed this announcement would have a negative impact on Comair because we operate some of the oldest 50-seat aircraft in the Delta Connection fleet, which also have the highest unit cost per flight hour. And, in fact, Delta has decided to remove the remaining 16 Comair 50-seaters from the Delta network, leaving Comair with only 28 aircraft in scheduled service. This further reduction of Comair's active fleet will only create higher unit costs, which equates to a business model that is no longer sustainable in this competitive regional environment.

I understand that today's news is very difficult and raises many questions for you and your family. Human Resources is prepared to directly assist you during this time. They will post a memo and other documents on the Human Resources Epic page to keep you informed of the assistance available and to help answer many of your questions. We will also have staff available over the weekend to answer questions if needed. If after reviewing the information on Epic you have any additional questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to reach out to your departmental leadership as well.

The discontinuation of Comair's operations is in no way a failure or a reflection of your work – it is an unfortunate necessity due to the economic limitations of our aging aircraft, cost structure, the long-term outlook for 50-seat aircraft, and our challenging industry and economy. The quality of our operations has continued to be outstanding during our lengthy restructuring efforts, and I am honored to have had the opportunity to lead such a committed team. I am asking that each of you recognize the importance of remaining focused on safety and the job at hand as we continue operations throughout the wind-down period. Your continued commitment and your dedication to a safe and reliable operation is a testament to the professional team we have built here at Comair.

[Edited 2012-07-27 05:34:51]
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b727fa
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:42 pm

Best wishes for the future...
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FSDan
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:53 pm

I wish all OH employees the very best going forward.

I suppose the following is good news, though:

Cincinnati will continue to be an important market in Delta's worldwide network. Over the past several years, working with community leaders, Delta has right-sized capacity at Cincinnati to better match service to local passenger demand. Cincinnati is now a profitable market for Delta and the city continues to enjoy over 120 peak daily flights, with non-stop service to 49 destinations. No reductions in the number of Delta flights are planned at Cincinnati as a result of this decision.
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par13del
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:00 pm

Perhaps they can look toward becoming a Commuter Airline which may be smaller but viable versus a larger Regional totally at the mercy of the scope clauses of a legacy carrier.

Best of luck to all staff.
 
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BNE
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:04 pm

Are any of us surprised that Comair was shut down. Nope.

Good luck to all the effected staff.
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commavia
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:05 pm

Sad day for Comair - definitely a pioneer in the modern regional airline industry.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 3):
Press release says 'no reductions in flights are planned in Cincinnati as a result of this decision.'

Not sure I buy that - in the broader sense. While perhaps it may be accurate to say that no flight reductions are planned in Cincinnati directly "as a result of this decision," I just don't see how Cincinnati isn't in for some further right-sizing as Delta continues to steadily draw down the DCI regional jet fleet which Cincinnati (and Memphis) is now largely dependent on.

Overall, if Delta really is going to be pulling dozens if not hundreds of small jets out of the fleet, that is going to mean a major reallocation of capacity and scheduling across the entire Delta network - particularly since Delta has one of the largest RJ operations of any U.S. carrier. I suspect it will look much like the massive realigning in early 2005 when DFW was closed down - a massive reshuffle all across the network (although, obviously, it likely won't happen pretty much all on one day like that one did). But either way, there are going to be a lot of regional jet markets either seeing upgauging with reduced frequency, or an elimination of service altogether - and I doubt Cincinnati, which already sees the majority of its flying on regional jets, is going to be immune to that.
 
timf
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 5):
Cincinnati will continue to be an important market in Delta's worldwide network. Over the past several years, working with community leaders, Delta has right-sized capacity at Cincinnati to better match service to local passenger demand. Cincinnati is now a profitable market for Delta and the city continues to enjoy over 120 peak daily flights, with non-stop service to 49 destinations. No reductions in the number of Delta flights are planned at Cincinnati as a result of this decision.

Notice the distinct lack of the word "hub" in that statement.

While it may not make it any easier, it was a long time coming and this now provides a sense of closure. Hope everyone at Comair is able to find work elsewhere in the industry.
 
G500
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:19 pm

Why did Comair go down?

was it because they refused to offer their services for peanuts like some other regionals?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:26 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 10):
Why did Comair go down?

was it because they refused to offer their services for peanuts like some other regionals?

OH was a wholly-owned by DL. DL wanted to sell them off, but no buyers were interested. OH, being one of the oldest regional airlines have some of the most senior workgroups and higher cost accordingly.

Without a buyer, DL was not interested in continuing to operate this small, stand-alone, high-cost operator.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:32 pm

Well it was a long fought battle and I think both parties tried in earnest to avoid this but here we are. Best of luck to all involved and hopefully those that are left can find new jobs very soon. DL should be hiring F/As in September too.
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rj777
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:32 pm

So I'm guessing any Comair flights scheduled after 9/26 will probably have an aircraft switch? Reason I'm asking is because I'm scheduled to fly on a Comair flight on Black Friday from OMA to DTW.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting timf (Reply 9):
Hope everyone at Comair is able to find work elsewhere in the industry.

Hiring outlook is improving from what I hear, and with the 1500 hour rule coming into play next year, they should be able to find something. Maybe not all of them and not right away, but in the near future.

Of course, that's bad news for those trying to get into the regionals. .
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:38 pm

Quoting rj777 (Reply 13):
So I'm guessing any Comair flights scheduled after 9/26 will probably have an aircraft switch? Reason I'm asking is because I'm scheduled to fly on a Comair flight on Black Friday from OMA to DTW.

Yes.

In subsequent schedule changes, they will load the new schedule which will include the new operator, flight numbers, and potential equipment change. To most people it will be transparent, like most routine schedule adjustments.
 
Michiganatc
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:50 pm

What a shame that this headline isn't about ASA!
 
ThePinnacleKid
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 16):


Little harsh there...one shouldn't wish any carrier's demise... Comair was a good airline and they had respectable motives and intentions in the dirty world of regional airlines..... sad to see them go like ACA.....

With that said.. as to work rules etc... ASA is not a thorn in the progress toward livable wages and better QOL unlike some other carriers... also, ASA already is gone.. it is ExpressJet now... the largest single regional carrier in the world (even larger than it's owner SkyWest). The loss of ExpressJet would be huge to United and Delta and a void that would be hard to fill.... sadly the loss of any carrier such as American Eagle, SkyWest, ExpressJet, Air Wisconsin, Comair would only further the race to the bottom and the great divide on pay/qol between regional airline employees and their mainline counterparts.... That's the worst part of Comair going away.. they worked hard to push the industry upwards... not let it slide to the dirt like some carriers that come to mind.
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rj777
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:05 pm

I know it's not gonna happen right away, but do you think the 717s will take over the Comair routes once they come online?
 
mli717fan
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:09 pm

I've always enjoyed flying on Comair. I flew them back in the early 2000s JAX-CVG-MLI and my JAX-CVG leg was delayed about 5 hours. I wasn't mad, things happen sometimes. When I finally got to CVG I was sure I missed my MLI flight. As we deboarded, there was an agent standing in the hallway (we were in the C concourse) saying "Moline? Moline?" when I heard that I said I'm heading to Moline. She said Good! We've got your plane right here and showed me where to go. Some how my bags made it too. That really impressed me. It's a shame to see them go.  
 
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b727fa
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 12):
DL should be hiring F/As in September too.

I sure hope so...but right from DW, "No mass hiring for Regular (Non-LOD) FA's through 2013."
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
saab2000
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:19 pm

Quoting rj777 (Reply 18):
I know it's not gonna happen right away, but do you think the 717s will take over the Comair routes once they come online?

Routes are always shuffled around and some may ultimately be flown by DL metal but more likely just another regional partner. The regional world is just a shell game, especially when the mother ship owns the airplanes and can just transfer them airframes from one carrier to another. Keeps costs low so executive bonuses stay high.
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durangomac
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:31 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 11):
OH, being one of the oldest regional airlines have some of the most senior workgroups and higher cost accordingly.

Without a buyer, DL was not interested in continuing to operate this small, stand-alone, high-cost operator.

The issue here isn't that they are one of the oldest regionals but that because of downsizing of their fleet over the last several years they have a very senior pilot group with so many on furlough. The problem with OH is they have a checkered past and have some very high expenses that no buyer was willing to deal with.

OH is a great airline, it's a shame they weren't able to keep the planes over the last several years.
 
KDAYflyer
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:43 pm

Well, not a surprise by any stretch but unfortunate. I like the part of the letter where the CEO tells the employees it wasn't their fault. Comair was stupid for not getting the 76 & 90 seaters to offset thier costs IMHO.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 18):
I know it's not gonna happen right away, but do you think the 717s will take over the Comair routes once they come online?

I cant see the 717 picking up much out of CIncy - perhaps another freuency to ATL, MCO, LGA or other major hub but thats about all. I think they have a better chance of seeing KDAY or similar sized cities.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:01 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 6):
Perhaps they can look toward becoming a Commuter Airline which may be smaller but viable versus a larger Regional totally at the mercy of the scope clauses of a legacy carrier.

I don't see how this is an option.

DL owns them, and DL is shutting them down, after not finding someone to buy them.

Seems the only asset that would make financial sense to maintain is its Operating Certificate, which can be done at relatively low expense. The 50 seaters will join the glut of them sitting in the desert.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:09 pm

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 16):
What a shame that this headline isn't about ASA!



Why?...

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 26):
Well, not a surprise by any stretch but unfortunate. I like the part of the letter where the CEO tells the employees it wasn't their fault. Comair was stupid for not getting the 76 & 90 seaters to offset thier costs IMHO.



??? I'm a little confused by this statement. Any move Comair makes is by the hand and whim of DL. They have the CR7s and CR9s that they have now because DL awarded them the frames/flying. DL giveth and DL taketh away. It's not Comair's fault. You know those CR7s that GoJet is currently flying under DL colors? All former OH frames that were transferred to ASA a couple years ago then G7 this past February.
What gets measured gets done.
 
apodino
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:21 pm

Well...no surprise here as this seemed like the writing was on the wall for a long time. My heartfelt sympathies to those fine men and women who will be out of work.

Some things I wonder. Comair only flew a handful of the 50 seaters that are bound for retirement. The rest of them are going to have to come from somewhere, which would either be Pinnacle or a SkyWest subsidiary. Keep an eye on the pinnacle bankruptcy going forward for clues as to the future of this. Also...where are the Comair 70 seaters going? Delta wants to keep those flying.

There are still 3 wholly owned subsidiaries left with the Legacies, and ironically those two legacies are talked about in the AA/US merger. Two things is, what will be their fate if there is a merger, and not? Can the Wholly owned even survive anymore? Piedmont would seem to be in a bad position, with the Dash 8's aging, but there are cities they fly to where the Dash 8 is really the only ac that works. PSA would seem to be ok, but you wonder if Doug would like to get them off the balance sheet. Eagle is probably going to be around, but again, the AMR bankruptcy will go a long way in determining that.


One other thing that I find curious in this. One of the reasons GoJet was allowed to be what they are is because somehow the Teamsters got to represent that group, and this happened almost from the get go. Why those guys just didn't join ALPA I don't know. But here is the thing, IBT represents the GoJet Pilots and also the RAH pilots, where ALPA represents just about the rest of the regional industry save for SkyWest who is non union. Here is what I see here. RAH pilots have been in negotiations forever, and in talking to people they are trying to get released from mediation to begin the cooling off period. IBT has also managed to get one of the worst contracts in the industry for GoJet.

WIth ComAir, you can add them to ACA/Indy Air, Mesaba, and Colgan (Even though the latter two were merged), to the list of ALPA carriers that are not with us anymore. Of the other carriers out there, Air Wisconsin is another ALPA carrier with an uncertain future. ALPA to me seems to be the carrier that is able to get better contracts for their pilots, but with competitors belonging to a different union that seems very inneffective...it will be very hard for ALPA to prevent regionals being played off of each other, and if they want to stop this, they need to find a way to get almost all the pilots on board with them. Allowing the GoJet pilots to join IBT was a misstep, and it screwed their own guys over (Trans States)
 
saab2000
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:37 pm

There is much more to this than just union contracts and representation.

The tipping point is clearly when the wholly owned becomes a liability rather than an asset. I would be nervous if I worked for Piedmont or PSA. I don't know how they will pan out, especially PSA with their relatively small size and lack of economies of scale and Piedmont with their own very old fleet. Both carriers have right to be nervous. So does AWAC, operating only 50-seat RJs. But the ownership is likely coy because they don't have to play the same game as other carriers due to being privately owned. They are able to make long-term strategic decisions.

Very interesting times. And the shell game continues.
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DashTrash
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 29):
Keep an eye on the pinnacle bankruptcy going forward for clues as to the future of this.

Pinnacle is going to end up getting raped.

Quoting apodino (Reply 29):
.where are the Comair 70 seaters going?

GoJet. Enjoy the on time numbers....

Quoting apodino (Reply 29):
Piedmont would seem to be in a bad position, with the Dash 8's aging, but there are cities they fly to where the Dash 8 is really the only ac that works.

Piedmont is done. They are in the middle of a strike vote. Should they vote yes and get released, the company shuts down upon implementation of the strike. Should they not strike, the company shuts down sometime in 2013. Either way, Piedmont will be a ground handling operation only by 2014.

Quoting apodino (Reply 29):
One of the reasons GoJet was allowed to be what they are is because somehow the Teamsters got to represent that group, and this happened almost from the get go. Why those guys just didn't join ALPA I don't know.

GoJet is IBT by design of TSA Holdings in order for GoJet to have some legitimacy among the pilots when they began operations. That was the common belief at the time when the airline was formed. Back then there was also no way ALPA was going to take them. The company was formed to get around AA scope, and rather than take TSA pilots (company was furloughing), they hired off the street with "preferential" hiring to TSA guys.

If anyone ever thought you could spend a career flying for a regional, Comair, Mesaba, ACA and Piedmont should all serve notice you're wrong. Your job is always out for bid.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 29):
The rest of them are going to have to come from somewhere, which would either be Pinnacle or a SkyWest subsidiary.
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...l-seals-fate-hundreds-50-seat-jets says:

Quote:

But perhaps more significantly, it requires Delta’s regional affiliates to shed 218 fifty-seat regional jets as part of a “capacity neutral” scheme that calls the addition of as many as 88 Boeing 717s at the mainline.

... which seems to be saying there's really no need to replace the Comair flying.

Quoting apodino (Reply 29):
There are still 3 wholly owned subsidiaries left with the Legacies, and ironically those two legacies are talked about in the AA/US merger.

The article goes on to say:

Quote:

More immediately, Memphis-based Delta partner Pinnacle Airlines appears a likely candidate for a severe reduction in 50-seat jets. The company, in Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, abruptly suspended concessionary talks with its employees after concluding based on talks with Delta that it eventually will fly “far fewer” Bombardier CRJ200s than the 140 it operates today. Pinnacle hopes to compete for at least a portion of the new 76-seat jet flying, but Delta informed it that competing regional carriers enjoy “significant cost and pilot seniority advantages” over the one-time Northwest Airlines subsidiary.

so it seems to me that Pinnacle is next in line for a beat-up. Same pattern: senior pilots, higher cost base.

Quoting saab2000 (Reply 30):
The tipping point is clearly when the wholly owned becomes a liability rather than an asset.

Not really sure when it was an asset. Maybe the majors thought they could drive the cost points of the regional industry downward? If so, in hindsight, the regionals didn't really need their "help".
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
F9Animal
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:01 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 3):
Your continued commitment and your dedication to a safe and reliable operation is a testament to the professional team we have built here at Comair.

Professional team we have built here? And now the team is being torn apart. I first want to send my deepest sorrow for the Comair employees that will be hurt by this move. I also send my deepest appreciation to the employees of this fine airline. Comair was by far a classy regional, and no doubt that its classiness was because of its fine workers. I am deeply saddened by the loss of Comair, and will miss knowing they will be gone. As an avid airline lover, todays announcement is equal to losing a family member. CVG will never have a great like Comair streaking the skies. I pray that Delta takes most if not all of Comairs employees. RIP Comair, you will be missed. :'(
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apodino
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:10 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 31):

GoJet is IBT by design of TSA Holdings in order for GoJet to have some legitimacy among the pilots when they began operations. That was the common belief at the time when the airline was formed. Back then there was also no way ALPA was going to take them. The company was formed to get around AA scope, and rather than take TSA pilots (company was furloughing), they hired off the street with "preferential" hiring to TSA guys.

So let me ask this much....what would it take for the GoJet pilots who may want to rebuild bridges to leave IBT and vote in ALPA...and end up piggybacking on Trans States contract?
 
saab2000
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 34):
So let me ask this much....what would it take for the GoJet pilots who may want to rebuild bridges to leave IBT and vote in ALPA...and end up piggybacking on Trans States contract?

Not gonna happen. They'd almost possibly be better off non-union like Skywest. There are no bridges to rebuild. And the owner of TSA and GoJet is the same person IIRC. He loves having them at each other's throats.
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ThePinnacleKid
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:22 pm

Call me crazy.. but Delta has said that they will achieve their goals on fleet up-gauging and realignment even with SkyWest, Inc. saying they are not going to let go of their contract on those CR2's until 2020... in light of this and the Comair shut down.. it seems that if Delta wanted, they will let 9E be the next to be dismantled completely and then go to SkyWest, Inc and basically do a 1:1 swap of the CR2's for the larger equipment... Bedford has stated many times he wants out of the 50 seat game so CHQ could be voluntarily gone from DLCnx and move more to Shuttle America's 170s.... all parties achieve their objective and at the end of the day we are 4 regional carriers less... (Colgan, Mesaba, Pinnacle, and Comair)....

I would imagine the DLCnx future looks to be: SkyWest, GoJet, Shuttle America, Compass, and ExpressJet.... still enough diversity of carriers to avoid Comair Strike issues but certainly less than all the ones they had at one point...
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 31):
If anyone ever thought you could spend a career flying for a regional, Comair, Mesaba, ACA and Piedmont should all serve notice you're wrong. Your job is always out for bid.

Yep, the regional industry is taking the path that has been clear for so long: a total race to the bottom.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 33):
Comair was by far a classy regional, and no doubt that its classiness was because of its fine workers.

Yes, but people will rarely pay for class these days.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
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par13del
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 27):
I don't see how this is an option.

DL owns them, and DL is shutting them down, after not finding someone to buy them.

Seems the only asset that would make financial sense to maintain is its Operating Certificate,

Which I hope they could sell to someone to create a commuter airline, the attempt to sell en mass as with AE has no takers.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 32):
Not really sure when it was an asset. Maybe the majors thought they could drive the cost points of the regional industry downward?

Well to the legacy's it was an asset because it was used to get around scope and supposedly attempt to lower the cost of flying, they may even have been able to wring concessions because of them, just as in now, the concessions are to basically get rid of their regional flying.

Will be interested in seeing whether the commuter airlines grow as a result, if other legacy carriers follow DL's path a number of routes flown with 50 seaters will either cease or get upsized.
 
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 38):

Well to the legacy's it was an asset because it was used to get around scope and supposedly attempt to lower the cost of flying, they may even have been able to wring concessions because of them, just as in now, the concessions are to basically get rid of their regional flying.

Yes, I think you are correct in that formation of the subsidiaries may have been accompanied by some scope concession on the part of the mainline pilots. Clearly they are seeing how that didn't turn out so swell.

Quoting par13del (Reply 38):

Will be interested in seeing whether the commuter airlines grow as a result, if other legacy carriers follow DL's path a number of routes flown with 50 seaters will either cease or get upsized.

We just had a thread here where US's Parker was quoted as saying he wishes he didn't sign up for so much 50 seat capacity in the mid 2000s. It seems the huge mergers and high fuel costs are undermining the 50 seat market.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
apodino
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting saab2000 (Reply 35):

Not gonna happen. They'd almost possibly be better off non-union like Skywest. There are no bridges to rebuild. And the owner of TSA and GoJet is the same person IIRC. He loves having them at each other's throats.

I know that....but if I am a GoJet pilot looking for some leverage against management, trying to get ALPA on the property and presenting a united front with TransStates, GoJet, and Compass would be something that I would certainly want if I was on that property. Management wanting these groups at each others throats would seem reason enough for me to want to present a united front.
 
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par13del
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
It seems the huge mergers and high fuel costs are undermining the 50 seat market.

Which is what I think is the big mover behind DL for example making concessions on scope, if either the Regionals or the pax in general had flocked to turbo-props and Q400's and ATR's were available in mass we might still be looking at legacy owned regionals staying around.

Interesting times ahead.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:05 pm

My thoughts to the Comair employees and families.

But oil over $50/bbl is incompatible with 50-seater flying. The costs of an MRJ per flight will be about the same as a CR2. There is just no competing and there isn't enough interest out there to fund a new 50-seater today due to the surplus (low residual value) of 50-seat RJs.

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
Overall, if Delta really is going to be pulling dozens if not hundreds of small jets out of the fleet, that is going to mean a major reallocation of capacity and scheduling across the entire Delta network - particularly since Delta has one of the largest RJ operations of any U.S. carrier.

Yes. The transition will be major. But expected due to consolidation at more profitable hubs.

Quoting apodino (Reply 29):
The rest of them are going to have to come from somewhere, which would either be Pinnacle or a SkyWest subsidiary.

SkyWest is holding onto their contracts for dear life. Due to their lower cost structure than Pinnacle, I expect SkyWest to win more larger jet traffic from DL. That negotiation will be interesting...

Quoting Revelation (Reply 32):
Memphis-based Delta partner Pinnacle Airlines appears a likely candidate for a severe reduction in 50-seat jets. The company, in Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, abruptly suspended concessionary talks with its employees after concluding based on talks with Delta that it eventually will fly “far fewer” Bombardier CRJ200s than the 140 it operates today. Pinnacle hopes to compete for at least a portion of the new 76-seat jet flying, but Delta informed it that competing regional carriers enjoy “significant cost and pilot seniority advantages” over the one-time Northwest Airlines subsidiary.

If Pinnacle is out of the bidding for the 76 seaters, it is only to the advantage of SkyWest. I too believe the writing is on the wall for Pinnacle.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
MSPNWA
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:18 pm

Sad day for OH and the airline industry. And now this completes the DL whipsawing of their wholly-owned regionals. OH just got the worse deal of them all. It's days like this that cause me to give no praise to legacy airline profits. They're counterfeit.

Be prepared for the worst, 9E. You're next.
 
toltommy
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 42):
If Pinnacle is out of the bidding for the 76 seaters, it is only to the advantage of SkyWest. I too believe the writing is on the wall for Pinnacle.

With DL also holding the DIP financing for 9E's bankruptcy, they can control the future, good or bad.

Quoting apodino (Reply 40):
I am a GoJet pilot looking for some leverage against management, trying to get ALPA on the property and presenting a united front with TransStates, GoJet, and Compass would be something that I would certainly want if I was on that property.

When push comes to shove, the so called "unified front" of having everyone represented by ALPA won't work. It hasn't so far. When if comes down to reality, someone will always get pushed under the bus.
 
Curiousflyer
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:21 pm

Regionals for me are too often linked with uncomfortable trips and cancelled flights. I always prefer mainline service so from that point of view, I am just curious to see what will come next.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:43 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 41):
Which is what I think is the big mover behind DL for example making concessions on scope

Yes, that and the mouth-watering terms they were able to extract out of WN for the 717s.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
crj200faguy
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:46 pm

If it were really the end of Pinnacle, why did Delta loan them all that money??

When are they planning on announcing where the OH 700s and 900s are going?

Rumor I heard today is 9E taking over OH's MX facility in CVG and getting the 900s. The first part is plausible. The 2nd part makes no sense to me.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:51 pm

Comair's been Delta's sh-tlist since the pilot's strike of 2001. It took awhile, but paybacks are a b-tch. Not saying the shutdown is related at this distant point in time, but deep down who knows?

My best to all the affected Comair staff.
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
xdlx
Topic Author
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 48):

Plausible.... and those that endured the grind since then! I tip my hat to you...
 
DashTrash
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 47):
If it were really the end of Pinnacle, why did Delta loan them all that money??

Buy out the -200 contract and keep the 900s until they can be placed somewhere else. Pinnacle owed DAL a buttload of money as it was.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 29):
Also...where are the Comair 70 seaters going? Delta wants to keep those flying.



DL owns all the OH CR7s. They will be re-allocated. I'm sure an RFP will be going out very soon for the CR7/CR9 flying.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 31):
GoJet. Enjoy the on time numbers....



There is no confirmation of this so let's not peak it as if it's the truth.

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 47):
If it were really the end of Pinnacle, why did Delta loan them all that money??



Because Pinnacle owed Delta money already. As it went, PNCL had already owed DL 40 some-odd million dollars. DL gave them an addition $30M as DIP and lumped the whole thing together. DIP financing is usually the first to be paid off as their pretty much on the top of the creditor list...in the end, DL will get back their $30M plus the $40+M Pinnacle owed them already. Genious...

The Atlanta based CR9s will begin to wind down for Pinnacle starting in January through May. Still no word on who's picking up the contract.
What gets measured gets done.
 
apodino
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting toltommy (Reply 44):
When push comes to shove, the so called "unified front" of having everyone represented by ALPA won't work. It hasn't so far. When if comes down to reality, someone will always get pushed under the bus.

That may be true...but GoJet currently has a huge cost advantage over competitors, and if they ousted IBT and brought on ALPA, the TransStates guys would end up being on the same seniority list, which means that the transstates contract likely takes precidence and neutralizes the cost advantage somewhat.

I know that as long as ALPA represents both Regionals and Mainlines there will be a slight conlfict of interest and a total united front will be impossible. But if ALPA is negotiating contracts for all the regionals, and then is able to get similar contracts at all of said regionals, it will be harder for any one regional to be significantly cheaper than the other one. The only way that management can work around this is to actually set up a new carrier and get junior pilots on the list so that the cost of having more senior employees can be safe. If ALPA is able to represent these groups though, then assuming it is not a brand new start up (which would be highly unlikely in todays market), they would be part of the same seniority list. This is why instead of going on a scab campaign against GoJet, ALPA should have worked a lot harder to get them on the property. What worries me about Comair is with them ceasing operations, their certificate is available and what is to stop someone else from acquiring said certificate and pulling a repeat of GoJet.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Comair Shutting DOWN..... 9/28 2359

Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 43):
It's days like this that cause me to give no praise to legacy airline profits. They're counterfeit.

I don't know if I'd describe it that way.

This just reflects the harsh reality of the industry, especially under influence of mergers and the prolonged high cost of fuel.

Comair is getting the short end of the stick, but that's life.

The regional system is in the position of being the shock absorber for the industry.

Given that they still find enough employees to work under crap terms and conditions, nothing will change.

There also seems to be no shortages of fools willing to invest in airlines.
Inspiration, move me brightly!