BestWestern
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Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:04 am

As an outsider to the whole North American aviation scene, the whole UA/CO merger seems to be a disaster in comparison to the way that DL/NW were merged.

The New Delta seems to have come through the merger refreshed, whilst all I read about here is the disaster that is happening around the UA/CO merger.

I understand that it is still early days for both, but what are the key reasons for the seemingly difficult merger of UA/CO, or is it just all petty a.net rivalrys.
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DTWHKG
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:11 am

If I understand correctly, UA and CO used different GDSs (Apollo vs. SHARES), and needed to convert everything into SHARES on 3/3, which created LOTS of issues. DL and NW used the same GDS (Worldspan) pre-merger and the task was much simpler.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:08 am

Isn't it premature to call the UA/CO merger a failure? While it hasn't gone anywhere near as smoothly as DL/NW, it's still a promising work in progress.
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rj777
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:18 am

I think part of it might have had to do with the fact that DL/NW went into CH11 together and they came out together.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:34 am

From my view, it was the whole "merger of equals" thing that ruined CO/UA. With that whole mantra, there is way too much give and take between the entities. DL, from my understanding, came to NW and said, "This is happening, it is gonna be DL, and this, this, and that will happen. We are willing to work with you, but if you don't like it, there's the door." DL came with more force to NW rather than CO and UA being "equals". The airline industry is a dog-eat-dog industry and when dealing with the worlds largest airlines, one should not p*ssyfoot around.
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coairman
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:57 am

UA will get better because of:

-Adding more spare pmua aircraft to the fleet to increase reliability. Pmua will have up to 15 spare aircraft.. This is most critical to improving customer service and employee morale.

-Padding the schedule

-Adding time for crew connections

-Hiring more MX personnel

-Focus on touch time and overnight MX

-Staff becomes more comfortable and proficient with new policies, procedures and new software.

It takes time to gel into a well tuned operation. I think UA is 100% committed to running a very good airline.
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Bobloblaw
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:45 am

I don't agree with the premise that the merger has been a disaster. More problems than delta? Sure. Anyone wants to see a disaster in the making it is WN and FL. That merger has revealed a lot of WN problems that were hidden.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:23 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):
From my view, it was the whole "merger of equals" thing that ruined CO/UA. With that whole mantra, there is way too much give and take between the entities. DL, from my understanding, came to NW and said, "This is happening, it is gonna be DL, and this, this, and that will happen. We are willing to work with you, but if you don't like it, there's the door." DL came with more force to NW rather than CO and UA being "equals". The airline industry is a dog-eat-dog industry and when dealing with the worlds largest airlines, one should not p*ssyfoot around.

You are kidding of course, since the above never happened, but it does make a good story.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:24 am

Quoting DTWHKG (Reply 1):
If I understand correctly, UA and CO used different GDSs (Apollo vs. SHARES), and needed to convert everything into SHARES on 3/3, which created LOTS of issues. DL and NW used the same GDS (Worldspan) pre-merger and the task was much simpler.

Another reason the DL/NW merger went smoother:

DL president Richard Anderson was previously the president of NW, and knew NW's strengths and weaknesses, and the strengths and weaknesses of NW's top managers, as well as anyone at NW. Anderson was also on good terms with the politicians and key corporate accounts in NW's hub cities.

Even though I'm not one of the DL fanboys on ANet, I still feel the NW/DL merger was the smoothest airline merger ever. DL did almost everything perfectly.
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termbewr
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:09 pm

From a customer's perspective, the only negative feedback I've heard about the UA/CO merger has been in reference to the aircraft. The CO fleet is quite young and the interiors are generally in very good condition. Also, they had been installing DirecTV and AVOD etc. When the UA aircraft became intergrated into the schedules, I did hear comments from several CO passengers how the UA aircraft seemed dated and in shabby condition.

With regard to the DL/NW merger, I don't recall either carrier's aircraft being in particularly good condition when the merger occured. That alone probably minimized quite a bit of customer dissatisfaction.
 
planeguy727
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:23 pm

It helps to remember that a vast majority of what you read on a.net is opinion.
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FlyHossD
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:54 pm

What was it that CO CEO Kellner saw that made him walk away from a UA/CO merger?

Yet Smisek jumped at the chance...
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saab2000
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:58 pm

DL/NWA was a well planned operation and the upper management got everyone on board with it by offering carrots. The pilots are who I know best and even the most grumpy NWA pilots have said it worked pretty well for them. They grudgingly admit it. That says it was probably a pretty good thing for them because pilots don't like quantum changes like that very much.

The reason it worked is that the employees were part of it from the outset and the employees of United/CO I know say that this has not been the case in their merger.
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bobnwa
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 14):
CEO. Bastard....Bastian...sorry ( ) is the president

Is that supposed to be humorous
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:21 pm

From a branding perspective DL also wins....They simultaneously re-branded MSP, MEM and DTW overnight in March 2009 to DL pretty smoothly. With United hubs they didnt do them all at the same time, have they all been totally re-braaded yet? I was at Ohare last fall and the gates had been re-branded to the globe logo, but the logo's on the outside of the jet bridges were still the tulip logo. They should have done their best to re-brand the hub airports to the new globe logo as fast as they could, the branding just seems confusing...are we the tulip or globe? They should have done a better job at that.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:31 pm

I don't understand, $545 million dollar profit ($339 million after special charges) this past qtr and the merger is a failure?

Technical issues, yes, insurmountable no.

Difference in product offering between CO and UA fleets, yes, will be corrected with time.

Labor issues, particularly with the pilots, absolutely. Let's see what they can work out.

But again take away the special items and this past qtr UA in the midst of these merger hiccups are just as profitable as DL. That bodes well for UA going forward as they resolve their merger issues.
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:34 pm

"Isn't it premature to call the UA/CO merger a failure? While it hasn't gone anywhere near as smoothly as DL/NW, it's still a promising work in progress."

Depends what you define as a failure.

DL/NW did a much better job in a much quicker timeframe.

UA/CO have had more hiccups. As several have pointed out, NW and DL both went into it a little happier and both saw the glass as half full.
I had a CO guy on the jumpseat last week and he introduced himself as CO now UA with a tone that made me ask "how is it going." His answer was a flight-long response that is summed up best as "f**king disaster." Now that's just his point of view...but his glass is half empty.


This all pales in comparison to the technical disaster WN/FL is.

Truth is, these things all take time. Ten years from now UA/CO may look great and Delta may be a disaster. Stay tuned!
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:52 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 20):
Truth is, these things all take time. Ten years from now UA/CO may look great and Delta may be a disaster. Stay tuned!

You nailed that one!! Stasis does not exist in this industry. Remember when OH was King of the Regionals? When AMR was on the cutting edge of marketing and network innovation? When the words 'bankruptcy' and 'Delta' in the same sentence were unthinkable? When the United brand was associated with a high end product? When B-school gurus praised WN for having the perfect organizational structure and culture?
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):
From my view, it was the whole "merger of equals" thing that ruined CO/UA. With that whole mantra, there is way too much give and take between the entities. DL, from my understanding, came to NW and said, "This is happening, it is gonna be DL, and this, this, and that will happen. We are willing to work with you, but if you don't like it, there's the door." DL came with more force to NW rather than CO and UA being "equals". The airline industry is a dog-eat-dog industry and when dealing with the worlds largest airlines, one should not p*ssyfoot around.

As a *former* NWA frequent flyer, I can attest that their labor problems were so bad the whole airline was ready to implode. It was charitable of DL to not dissolve NW and cherry-pick its (alleged) assets.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:27 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
As a *former* NWA frequent flyer, I can attest that their labor problems were so bad the whole airline was ready to implode.

What are you basing that on?

Labor relations may have been fractious, but nowhere near the level you say they were...
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delta2ual
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 19):
I don't understand, $545 million dollar profit ($339 million after special charges) this past qtr and the merger is a failure?

I think the problem investors have is that profits have fallen 37% YOY and UA's revenue performance lags all peers (including USAirways). It should be going in the opposite direction as all the merger "synergies" are realized.
I wouldn't call this merger a failure, but I do think Smisek & co. have clearly underestimated the resolve of their "coworkers" (as he likes to call them). I think having joint union contracts in place pre-merger, at least with pilots, would have made this whole thing a lot easier. As I said in other posts, this joint contract will either get done (and cost a lot of $) or it will drag on for years and any goodwill the employees may have had about this merger will vanish. We shall see.
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:37 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
The New Delta seems to have come through the merger refreshed, whilst all I read about here is the disaster that is happening around the UA/CO merger.

One thing DL had in its favor was US's unwanted approaches during BK rallying the troops around the DL flag.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 10):
Even though I'm not one of the DL fanboys on ANet, I still feel the NW/DL merger was the smoothest airline merger ever. DL did almost everything perfectly.

Yes, I think it's more of a matter of DL's merger going quite well rather than UA/CO being a "disaster".

Quoting saab2000 (Reply 16):
DL/NWA was a well planned operation and the upper management got everyone on board with it by offering carrots. The pilots are who I know best and even the most grumpy NWA pilots have said it worked pretty well for them. They grudgingly admit it. That says it was probably a pretty good thing for them because pilots don't like quantum changes like that very much.

Yes, it might be an oversimplification but it's clear to me that DL is using carrots and UA/CO is using sticks, so it's no surprise that things are dragging along at UA/CO.

Meanwhile, we see DL with a new pilot contract that has let them take advantage of WN's mouth-watering deal on 717s and upgauge/renew their fleet while dumping 50 seaters. It's a win/win for the airline and the mainline pilots.

Seems to me both UA/CO and US/HP can take some lessons from all of this, but I won't be holding my breath.

Seems their executive suites are locked into the current tone and direction, which is quite unfortunate.
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:47 pm

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 24):
What are you basing that on?

Watching y'all fight in public.

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 24):
Labor relations may have been fractious, but nowhere near the level you say they were...

I disagree.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
As a *former* NWA frequent flyer, I can attest that their labor problems were so bad the whole airline was ready to implode. It was charitable of DL to not dissolve NW and cherry-pick its (alleged) assets.

It's funny how often the scenario of liquidation is discussed here, but how rarely it happens to the major airlines in the US.

What's the last one we've seen? Eastern? Before that, Pan Am? Decades ago, right?

It seems the cherry picking scenario is just not favored. I suppose it's because you have no guarantee of which cherries you will get and how much they will cost.
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:22 pm

My simple answer, DL/NW is working better than CO/UA because it was a merger of equals where it counts the most.
DL and NW went into Chpt.11 within months of each other thus both were in a boat taking on water and more willing to do the things necessary to survive. Yes the merger happened after they emerged from Chpt.11 but that is where the groundwork was laid.

CO and UA on the other hand are in cruise ships sailing the ocean with small leaks which the bilge pumps are containing, so each was looking at what they can get, be better at, preserve, whose the better man, all the pride stuff, definately not in survival mode, which I guess is to be expected. The players are not yet convinced that they need each other, that is the players outside of the folks doing the paperwork, like the workers.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:45 pm

Whenever you try to combine two companies, you'll have challenges. There will always be issues and clashes in culture or procedures. The key to overcome the inevitable issues is leadership. That person with a management team that has a plan, works its ass off to execute the plan and (most importantly), give your employees input in the formulation and execution of the plan.

In short (at least from an outsider's perspective), management thought they could do things on the cheap and essentially not learn anything from how airline mergers like DL/NW worked. Everything from SHARES/APOLLO to the pilots' integration of procedures and joint contracts has been a hash.

UA thought it would be a great idea to look at things like the frequent flyer program and take the route that was better/easier/perceived as cheaper for the airline and essentially flipped off the folks who represent their highest revenue stream. What successful company does that?

UA had an opportunity to hit it out of the park. Instead, they've shot themselves in the foot time and again - alienating their employees and their customers in the process.

The merger isn't "complete" until the employee groups are unified under one contract and work together as one team. As such, the results are in yet. However, its been mind boggling how badly UA management bungled this opportunity.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 30):
The key to overcome the inevitable issues is leadership. That person with a management team that has a plan, works its ass off to execute the plan and (most importantly), give your employees input in the formulation and execution of the plan.

... and some expectation of better conditions once the turmoil is over, which doesn't seem to be something UA/CO's management is willing to offer. Thus, it seems to me, the incentive to bust their butts to get through the turmoil just isn't there. In fact, it's probably more likely that they put spokes into the wheels in the hope of getting management to dangle some carrots in front of them.
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 15):

Wall street made it happen. It was just a matter of time. (just like AMR merging with someone is just a matter of time.) The DL/NW just started the snow ball rolling down hill. (so in other words, If smisek wouldn't do it, they would have found someone who would. It is, IMHO, the reason Jim Whitehurst isn't the CEO of Delta.)

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 22):

Both pilot groups were offered a LOT of money to get on the same page right from the start. The SLI was done on a percentile basis.

And the SLI was something Delta knew would get done because of ALPA rules. No union merging or anything like like that to f**k it up.

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 22):

That said, the NW/DL merger was not w/o some heartburn. We had many of the same integration issues UA/CO is having now, albeit on a smaller scale.

The biggest thing by far was the Ramp and F/A union issues. Waiting for the vote change, then the questions on if it were legal etc. etc. Like i said, some IT stuff is still being worked out(mostly (all?) employee systems though)

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):

As a *former* NWA frequent flyer, I can attest that their labor problems were so bad the whole airline was ready to implode. It was charitable of DL to not dissolve NW and cherry-pick its (alleged) assets.

uhhh.....They were no more bitter than any other airline employee that took it in BK. The AMFA screw job didn't help things.

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 24):

I would even say that AMR has much,much more labor problems than NWA.
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 19):

I don't understand, $545 million dollar profit ($339 million after special charges) this past qtr and the merger is a failure?

   We're starting to see a cost benefit.   

Quoting Coairman (Reply 7):

UA will get better because of:

-Adding more spare pmua aircraft to the fleet to increase reliability. Pmua will have up to 15 spare aircraft.. This is most critical to improving customer service and employee morale.

-Padding the schedule

-Adding time for crew connections

-Hiring more MX personnel

All of those increase CASM.   I hope UA/CO is finding enough other places to cut costs.

Lightsaber
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ROSWELL41
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:33 pm

As has been said, DL/NW offered financial incentives for their employees to come together and get the merger (joint CBA, seniority lists, etc) done quickly and harmoniously. UA/CO has not done that at all and thus their is increasing rankor and discontent amongst the work groups. This will prove Smisek's greatest failure and directly impacts all of the business.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 30):
The merger isn't "complete" until the employee groups are unified under one contract and work together as one team.

I would argue that with this as the criteria for 'complete' or success, than US/HP is probably a dismal failure. On the other hand, the results delivered by US this past week are incredible (as are some of their operational metrics). Don't forget the systems cutover issues that plagued this pairing.....

UA/CO will sort itself out in the end, but there is no way that the integration can be viewed to be as successful as DL/NW.
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:43 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 29):
DL and NW went into Chpt.11 within months of each other

IIRC, it was within hours of each other. That alone got the merger rumors floating long before it actually happened.
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
As an outsider to the whole North American aviation scene, the whole UA/CO merger seems to be a disaster in comparison to the way that DL/NW were merged.

People just have short memories. It wasn't long ago that DL was near the top of the pack is all the wrong categories. And the so-called "merger"? Well, that's not so hard to accomplish when there's very little "merging". NW was much smaller than DL. The employees couldn't put up an effective roadblock. Operationally it was usually the Delta way or the highway, whether you did it better or not. And that's all under the hood. When I see the combined UA, I see parts of UA here and parts of CO there. NW is totally gone from a passenger's perspective.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):
DL, from my understanding, came to NW and said, "This is happening, it is gonna be DL, and this, this, and that will happen. We are willing to work with you, but if you don't like it, there's the door." DL came with more force to NW rather than CO and UA being "equals".

Really that's a pretty fair summation.
 
briguy1974
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:58 pm

I think you are crazy to think that the post delta merger is a stronger carrier than the post united merger. The issue is one thing and one thing only. The United work force is extremely disenchanted. But the synrgies routs, fleets advantage United.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 2):
In my opinion...

PMUA was a mess. Everyone was unhappy at United -- flight attendants, ground, flight crew, regional airlines, etc. They couldn't turn a profit and they were quickly headed for Chapter 7. Smisek was deeply unpopular at Continental, had declining revenues, and did the dumbest thing on earth to save his ass, get into bed with United. Not only did Smisek get into bed with a struggling UA, he acceded to their ridiculous demands like moving out of Houston for Wacker.

Ideally, UA should've been liquidated, and CO (and DL, and maybe AA) would've been there to pick up the pieces with the help of several investment banks.

I am sorry, but this was no where near reality, I dont know how you got UA was headed for Chapter 7, UA was VERY profitable!

Quoting United1 (Reply 11):
You may want to check that fact again....UA was actually outperforming CO financially and operationally prior to the merger. They were in no danger of going away....

     

Quoting termbewr (Reply 12):
I did hear comments from several CO passengers how the UA aircraft seemed dated and in shabby condition.

Which I just find amusing, as UA has great aircraft in great condition, CO had the oldest aircraft in the combined fleet, the 735

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 15):
What was it that CO CEO Kellner saw that made him walk away from a UA/CO merger?

Yet Smisek jumped at the chance...

Could it be oil prices? Not sure, but I think Kellner was ready to retire and just wanted to keep status quo for a bit.

-m

  
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 37):
It wasn't long ago that DL was near the top of the pack is all the wrong categories.

So what? It wasn't all that long BEFORE that DL was at the top or near it in all the RIGHT categories. Really has NO bearing on this discussion. I think you just used it as another opportunity to slam DL, AGAIN. Anyway, to me, this has all the earmarks of a "merger", no matter what you may think. DL & NW merged routes, fleets, work groups, etc. Just because processes weren't merged does not keep it from being a merger.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 37):
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):
DL, from my understanding, came to NW and said, "This is happening, it is gonna be DL, and this, this, and that will happen. We are willing to work with you, but if you don't like it, there's the door." DL came with more force to NW rather than CO and UA being "equals".

Really that's a pretty fair summation.

Actually, it's not. There are any number of procedures (that may or may not be apparent to the pax) that are some of DL, some of NW. Besides, think of it, this way.............say DL has 20,000 ACS employees and NW has 10,000........does it make more sense, training wise, to retrain those 20K or the 10K? For expediency's sake and to make things smoother (although it may not seem like it) it's probably better to retrain the smaller group and gradually, over time, find processes from either carrier that might work better.

Quoting briguy1974 (Reply 38):
The United work force is extremely disenchanted.

Were you even on A.net during the representation elections at DL?  
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
As a *former* NWA frequent flyer, I can attest that their labor problems were so bad the whole airline was ready to implode. It was charitable of DL to not dissolve NW and cherry-pick its (alleged) assets

Wrong. I have two differenct perspectives and they both disagree with yours. My older brother is an ex-NW A320 FO and my wife is Platinum Elite on NW/Delta. Things are never perfect, but they both agree that things went quite smoothly.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 39):
Which I just find amusing, as UA has great aircraft in great condition, CO had the oldest aircraft in the combined fleet, the 735

How many 735's are in the fleet? What is the average age of the CO fleet compared to UA?

While its true UA was moving up in terms of its performance post bankruptcy, we've received solid information on this forum about the state of many sUA aircraft in terms of deferred maintenance etc. Post merger, UA announced refurbishments to its 319/320's, brought in their 757's for catch up maintenance and have dealt with issues with dispatch reliability across both fleets. This resulted in UA finally acknowledging the maintenance issues and raising the number of spares to deal with a higher level of maintenance necessary when you utilize the frames at a much higher rate.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 27):
Watching y'all fight in public.

???

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 27):
I disagree.

...Which you're absolutely free to do. Just know that my perspective is from being on the inside...

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 32):
The biggest thing by far was the Ramp and F/A union issues.

Still are, IMO.



Quote:
Waiting for the vote change, then the questions on if it were legal etc. etc. Like i said, some IT stuff is still being worked out(mostly (all?) employee systems though)

All employee related "stuff" took until this past 5/1 to complete. Even at that, PMNW ACS still get paid on a different cycle than PMDL. Also, there are still lots of headaches/heartburn with systems like MPS (employee payroll), and operational systems the customer will never see.

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 34):
As has been said, DL/NW offered financial incentives for their employees to come together and get the merger (joint CBA, seniority lists, etc) done quickly and harmoniously.

Pilots only. Other groups received financial incentives in the form of stock like they did, but it was nowhere near as high of an amount.

Quoting DLD9S (Reply 36):
IIRC, it was within hours of each other. That alone got the merger rumors floating long before it actually happened.

Indeed.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 37):
Operationally it was usually the Delta way or the highway, whether you did it better or not.

What's frustrating to me is that the theory espoused was "best from each side," while the theory in use was closer to what you note. Outside of our (NW) deicing program, I can't think of any systems that were retained in whole.

Now we see some of the legacy NW stuff coming back into the fold, and it's being touted as an innovation, as opposed to a return to what ultimately works best...

Quoting mayor (Reply 40):
.does it make more sense, training wise, to retrain those 20K or the 10K?

It does if the end run is to adopt whichever practice is the most beneficial... Certainly more so when compared to just training the smaller group, only to have to eventually train the larger group if a system is adopted later on.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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Revelation
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting DLD9S (Reply 36):
IIRC, it was within hours of each other. That alone got the merger rumors floating long before it actually happened.

Yes, but both were triggered by changes to the bankruptcy law coming into effect, largely because of the way UA abused the bankruptcy process.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 37):
NW is totally gone from a passenger's perspective.

That's what was supposed to happen, right?

It's better than being on a UA branded plane and having the crew state they are a Continental crew, no?
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
johns624
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:50 pm

It was more of a merger than the premerger DL fanboys thought. I remember reading that all the 744s and 330s were going to ATL and JFK and DTW was going to be a backwater with just a few 763s. It didn't quite work out that way, did it?
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 43):
Quoting mayor (Reply 40):
.does it make more sense, training wise, to retrain those 20K or the 10K?

It does if the end run is to adopt whichever practice is the most beneficial... Certainly more so when compared to just training the smaller group, only to have to eventually train the larger group if a system is adopted later on.

Even if you have to eventually retrain the larger group, later, it doesn't have to be done quickly, under the pressure of getting the two operations working together. Worked with WA......no reason it can't work, now.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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deltacto
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting DLD9S (Reply 36):

IIRC, it was within hours of each other. That alone got the merger rumors floating long before it actually happened.

Both filed September 15, 2005

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/14/news/fortune500/bankruptcy_airlines/
 
NWAESC
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 46):
Even if you have to eventually retrain the larger group, later, it doesn't have to be done quickly, under the pressure of getting the two operations working together. Worked with WA......no reason it can't work, now.

My point was pick the best option for both (regardless of size), then take the time to train correctly everyone once. Sort of a "measure twice, cut once" mindset as opposed to the "cut a couple times...go back and measure...cut a little bit... change the drawing...measure again..." method...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 50):

747 is back in Atlanta FWIW. (and if Brazil would play nice it would be here for two routes)

Quoting Flighty (Reply 51):
It determines which corporate culture and critical mass of management employees survives and prevails.

Not really. Culture can be changed.
and HQ location has little to deal with anything thats wrong with UA.

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 52):

My point was pick the best option for both (regardless of size), then take the time to train correctly everyone once. Sort of a "measure twice, cut once" mindset as opposed to the "cut a couple times...go back and measure...cut a little bit... change the drawing...measure again..." method...

        
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 41):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):As a *former* NWA frequent flyer, I can attest that their labor problems were so bad the whole airline was ready to implode. It was charitable of DL to not dissolve NW and cherry-pick its (alleged) assets

Wrong. I have two differenct perspectives and they both disagree with yours. My older brother is an ex-NW A320 FO and my wife is Platinum Elite on NW/Delta. Things are never perfect, but they both agree that things went quite smoothly.

Of course, you're speaking in the present tense, and I'm speaking in the past tense. I stopped flying NWA during the 2005 strike and have since become a United 1-K. Because of that, I personally have nothng invested defending either DL or NW.
 
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mayor
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 52):
My point was pick the best option for both (regardless of size), then take the time to train correctly everyone once. Sort of a "measure twice, cut once" mindset as opposed to the "cut a couple times...go back and measure...cut a little bit... change the drawing...measure again..." method...

That would be ok, if on day one, you instantly KNEW which process was best. Now, I KNOW you think that everything you did was better and I'm sure some of it was, but that's not going to work. Hasn't worked in the two mergers and one acquisition I was involved in and I'm sure this one's not much different. I'm sure I would get the same arguments from DL people if things had ALL been switched over to NW's methods. That still wouldn't make it right. NW's & DL's methods may be different and some MAY even be better, but I'd be willing to bet that most of this is just because the processes are different than you're used to and nothing more.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
eaglepower83
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:23 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 48):
Well stated. UA was matted down with bureaucracy and continues to be. They didn't completely heal their business model. Too arrogant. Meanwhile, the finest US airline by nearly all opinions (Continental) got killed.

How can you and others keep saying that?
The paint job is CO, the "brand" is CO with the United name.
Majority of management is CO.
Majority of policies and procedures (save MRO) is CO.
The whole RES system is CO.
The Operating Certificate is CO!

This company is majority CO with a new name. And a few pieces of UA here and there.

One thing everyone agrees with; this new entity so far is WORSE than CO or UA on both sides.
 
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mayor
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 56):
How can you and others keep saying that?
The paint job is CO, the "brand" is CO with the United name.
Majority of management is CO.
Majority of policies and procedures (save MRO) is CO.
The whole RES system is CO.
The Operating Certificate is CO!

This company is majority CO with a new name. And a few pieces of UA here and there.

If this is all true, maybe CO wasn't as perfect as everyone makes them out to be.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 54):

So your talking about an airline during a strike and in BK or close to it? And you think that is even close to BK exit and merger? uh ok.

you know, During BK DALPA almost walked. I guess Delta has crappy employee relations too?  
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