varigb707
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Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:20 pm

Interesting Story. Good thing nobody's hurt though.
"
Associated Press – 2 hrs 0 mins ago

CHARLESTON, S.C. (AP) — Federal officials are trying to determine why debris fell from the engine of a new Boeing 787 Dreamliner, starting a fire and forcing officials to shut down a South Carolina airport.
The Post and Courier of Charleston reports (http://bit.ly/NBRR0V) that debris from the aircraft fell onto the runway at Charleston International Airport and into the grass Saturday, sparking a blaze that closed the airport for more than an hour.
Boeing spokeswoman Candy Eslinger says the aircraft was undergoing preflight runway testing in North Charleston when the incident occurred. Eslinger says the 787 was the latest one built at the Boeing campus in North Charleston.
No one was injured in the incident, and Eslinger says production will not be affected.
The airport was closed for more than an hour. The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating."


http://news.yahoo.com/debris-boeing-...gine-sparks-fire-sc-161445326.html
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Aesma
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:56 pm

I wonder if it's really engine parts or more likely FOD ?
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trex8
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:03 pm

Anyone know if it had GE or RR engines??

never mind, GE per thread in tech section

[Edited 2012-07-29 12:07:17]
 
traindoc
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:28 pm

Great place to have this happen. No passengers and before delivery. Hopefully just a one off event and not a "Rolls Royce" type problem for GE and its 787 engines.
 
topgunswa
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:57 pm

It was a GE engine that failed, it closed the airport for at least 1hr 20mins and caused a grass fire. The long runway ( 15/33) was closed last month for a 12 month reconstruction. There was debris from the engine failure on the runway and associated areas. From what I was told there was no communication with the Tower about the failure at the time.
 
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
I wonder if it's really engine parts or more likely FOD ?

I HIGHLY suspect FOD.

I see a new training video.   (I just had to, for the 2nd time this year, take FOE/FOD training... ugh.)

Lightsaber
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spiritair97
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:28 am

I was at CHS last week and saw 4 Dreamliners. Three were in full AI colors and one had the red tail. I assume the red tailed one was the latest build, which is the one in question.
 
mop357
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:19 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
I wonder if it's really engine parts or more likely FOD ?

I HIGHLY suspect FOD.

What is FOD?
 
KPDX
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:21 am

Quoting mop357 (Reply 8):
What is FOD?

Foreign object debris.

 
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lightsaber
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:49 am

It was an AI airframe:

"The jet involved in the episode is due to go to Air India and is the first "significant issue" with GE's new GEnx engine, Kennedy said. About 100 of the units are in service and are performing well, he said."

100 in service? That must be discussing all 788 engine.


Anyone else wonder if this will delay the AI deliveries further?   

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nra-3b
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:52 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
I HIGHLY suspect FOD.

I agree completely. With all the work going on over on the other runway, this is a distinct possibilty.

I once witnessed a C-5A outboard engine eat a drag chute. Very entertaining----- lots of flaming pieces of nylon and other crap spewing out of the exhaust pipe as well as the fan bypass duct.....   

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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:12 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
I wonder if it's really engine parts or more likely FOD ?
Quoting topgunswa (Reply 4):
From what I was told there was no communication with the Tower about the failure at the time.

If it was FOD, could this be why the pilots did not communicate the tower as it was not displayed on their instruments? I would think an unconstrained engine failure would have made a bigger headline.

How often do they check for FOD on the runway?
 
AngMoh
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:31 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
100 in service? That must be discussing all 788 engine.

747-8/8i has GEnx too, and that one is in service...
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trex8
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:32 am

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 13):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
100 in service? That must be discussing all 788 engine.

747-8/8i has GEnx too, and that one is in service...

and they got 4 on each of those!
 
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:28 am

Quoting KPDX (Reply 9):
Quoting mop357 (Reply 8):
What is FOD?

Foreign object debris.

  
It is taught as Foreign Object Elimination (FOE) and FOD. But FOD also means Foreign Object Damage.

Alas, improper FOE has led for FOD (as in damage).  
Quoting aztrainer (Reply 12):
How often do they check for FOD on the runway?

FOD is usually swept up on a schedule that is airport dependent (usually with a vacuum version of the street sweeper). The most damaging potential is something light enough to be pulled up by a minor vacuum (suction by the engines) but hard enough to damage engine blades.

Ground runs are not known for triggering true faults in an engine with the time on it of the GEnX. In other words, sometimes there have been prototype failures, but with the thousands of hours we have on the GEnX, this is most likely FOD.

Now FOD can be a liquid spilled into an engine that did damage while the plane sat. (Note: I do not know the history of this specific engine, so I'm speculating.) It could been a bolt. Maybe somebody sat in the engine and left a beer or two in there... (very unlikely... I'm stretching and I'll admit it.) But I would be willing to bet a beer this was FOD.   

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maxpower1954
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:15 am

What I want to know is, when did a factory or assembly plant become a "campus".
 
soon7x7
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:36 am

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 16):
What I want to know is, when did a factory or assembly plant become a "campus".

Probably the same time buying all your insurance needs is now called "Bundling"...I hate "Buzz words"
 
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:42 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
Anyone else wonder if this will delay the AI deliveries further?

If it does, that might be a blessing in disguise for AI.....
 
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747classic
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:41 am

According the latest tweet from Jon Ostrower (a mostly reliable source, former flightblogger) : "No sign of damage to GEnx front fan, ingested FOD ruled out, focus on engine's turbine sections"

See : https://twitter.com/jonostrower
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:12 am

Quoting 747classic (Reply 19):
"No sign of damage to GEnx front fan, ingested FOD ruled out, focus on engine's turbine sections"

Seriously doubt its FOD, I think its funny that A.net has narrowed a GE failure it down to FOD with absolutely no evidence whatsoever, if this was an RR engine, well just check a couple of threads over the last week or so..
BV
 
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:52 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 20):
Seriously doubt its FOD, I think its funny that A.net has narrowed a GE failure it down to FOD with absolutely no evidence whatsoever, if this was an RR engine, well just check a couple of threads over the last week or so..

Come on, we all know you have to have an engine explode in mid air before you get thrown into the doom and gloom doghouse for a couple years. This is just a ground explosion so it is just double secret probation.
 
sweair
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:11 am

That engine has flown quite a bit on the 748 and 787 and any issue should have been found IMO. Maybe it is a manufacture fault? A loose blade somewhere missed in testing and inspection? It shouldn't happen though..

Maybe a tool or a part left from pre flight maintenance?
 
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747classic
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:38 am

Question : Is the engine involved an original GEnx-1B or a GEnx-1B PIP1 engine ?
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
AngMoh
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:40 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 21):
That engine has flown quite a bit on the 748 and 787 and any issue should have been found IMO. Maybe it is a manufacture fault? A loose blade somewhere missed in testing and inspection? It shouldn't happen though..

Maybe a tool or a part left from pre flight maintenance?

The Trent 900 on the A380 also had flown quite a bit till one blew up when nobody expected it. Same here, there could be a case where all the tolerances stack up the wrong way and the result is spectacular. Or somebody was sleeping and left a spanner where there should not be one, who knows...

I am pretty sure that GE/Boeing make a preliminary statement within a week which will be much more accurate than any speculation here.
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sweair
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:52 am

I think I read that PIP2 will be installed in 2013 so PIP1 should be on the frames delivered this year.

It would be really bad if both engines have issues this far into the project.
 
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:24 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
I HIGHLY suspect FOD.

With all due respect, FOD seems unlikely to me. Reports are that the engine debris started a grass fire. That would strongly suggest that Hot Section parts were released. That would be some very serious FOD to cause release of Hot Section parts . . .

If the aircraft was just turning onto, or off the runway, the derbis could have exitted through the exhaust and blown onto the grass. If the aircraft was on the centreline, then the odds are pretty high the debris was released side-ways, as there should be no grass immediately behind the airplane when it is on the centreline.

Release of Hot Section parts is not good, and (usually) much worse than FOD. Sideway release of Hot Section parts, starting a grass fire is not good, . . . . at all. Keeping my fingers crossed here.

I'm also curious if the prolonged storage could be a factor here. One would expect preservation procedures to be well established, even in the early stages of the program; they should not be very different from other models, and should be well understood.

Rgds,
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:39 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 24):
It would be really bad if both engines have issues this far into the project

It would be really amazing if both engines did not have issues so EARLY into the project

Those of us that grew up with the jets and the early turbofans can testify to some spectacular failures which seemed at the time to be acceptable as part of moving forward technology. Now something blows and we all look surprised and point fingers

Can't wait for the GTF's and Propfans to get running...gonna be titanium and carbon fibre debris flying left right and centre!
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:05 am

Quoting PW100 (Reply 25):
If the aircraft was just turning onto, or off the runway, the derbis could have exitted through the exhaust and blown onto the grass. If the aircraft was on the centreline, then the odds are pretty high the debris was released side-ways, as there should be no grass immediately behind the airplane when it is on the centreline.Release of Hot Section parts is not good, and (usually) much worse than FOD. Sideway release of Hot Section parts, starting a grass fire is not good, . . . . at all.

My guess is (and it is only a guess) since Boeing did not mention any other damage to the aircraft, other than the engine, is they were exiting the runway at the time it happened and everything came out the tail pipe. I think since the crew did not say anything to the tower is a big clue to what happened. They may not have had any indication on the instruments and may have just thought what they heard was a compressor stall due to a change in airflow and possibly a throttle position change. They may have even taxied back to the ramp with the engine running, if they didn't see anything unusual.

This does not sound like a FOD incident to me as there was no visible fan section damage.

If it is a hot section part proble it most likely is a QA problem of either a faulty forged part, or an improperly installed part, as PW100 suggested. Based on what we know right now, I agree with him.
 
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:06 am

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 11):
How often do they check for FOD on the runway?

In addition to CHS being a fairly busy mid-size commercial airport, it's also a very busy USAF AMC base which is home to the 437th AW (comprised of 4 squadrons of C-17's - approx. 57 aircraft). Combine that with the Boeing ops and my guess is that FOD inspection on the runways at CHS is a fairly regular activity.

[Edited 2012-07-30 04:10:30]
 
sweair
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:06 am

Quoting shankly (Reply 26):
It would be really amazing if both engines did not have issues so EARLY into the project

Given that these engines would have had close to 4 years of maturing by now I still say it is a bit surprising to have an issue like this. All the ground tests, test flights quality control and inspections..

Maybe it was just a bolt left behind by a tired tech..
 
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:19 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
oeing did not mention any other damage to the aircraft, other than the engine, is they were exiting the runway at the time it happened and everything came out the tail pipe
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
I think since the crew did not say anything to the tower is a big clue to what happened.

That would indeed suggest that it was not catastrophic to the engine.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
I think since the crew did not say anything to the tower is a big clue to what happened. They may not have had any indication on the instruments and may have just thought what they heard was a compressor stall due to a change in airflow and possibly a throttle position change. They may have even taxied back to the ramp with the engine running, if they didn't see anything unusual.

I hope this is the case. Still that leaves me wondering what hot part could have been released without instrument reading changes. Piece of jet pipe or ducting or so?

Does the Ostrower article mention any important clues? Don't have access to it.

Thanks,
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:06 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
My guess is (and it is only a guess) since Boeing did not mention any other damage to the aircraft, other than the engine, is they were exiting the runway at the time it happened and everything came out the tail pipe.

Y'know, I'm gonna wait for the NTSB to confirm this. Boeing doesn't generally volunteer unfavourable information, this does not mean that this information does not exist.
BV
 
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 25):
. That would strongly suggest that Hot Section parts were released. That would be some very serious FOD to cause release of Hot Section parts . . .

Remember, I used to engineer gas turbine Hot section parts. One of the worst FOD is sand. It plugs up the cooling holes.

The FOD could be chemical, sand, or something normally benign but if stuck in the engine from start blocks cooling.

I would rather hope it isn't a manufacturing defect. That is a far more serious issue.

Quoting avalon2862 (Reply 28):
Combine that with the Boeing ops and my guess is that FOD inspection on the runways at CHS is a fairly regular activity.

Agreed.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 15):
What I want to know is, when did a factory or assembly plant become a "campus".

Late 1950s.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 31):
Y'know, I'm gonna wait for the NTSB to confirm this. Boeing doesn't generally volunteer unfavourable information, this does not mean that this information does not exist.

Boeing will be very sensitive to bad PR. Since the NTSB reports take a long time, it is much easier to play off a problem six months to a year in the past.

My rumor mill is at work today. I'll see if I can find out anything. Unlikely.  

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Aesma
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:28 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 19):
Seriously doubt its FOD, I think its funny that A.net has narrowed a GE failure it down to FOD with absolutely no evidence whatsoever, if this was an RR engine, well just check a couple of threads over the last week or so..

Well, most engines spewing stuff are spewing FOD so I was just wondering, I have no preference for GE whatsoever.
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Motorhussy
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 16):
Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 16):
What I want to know is, when did a factory or assembly plant become a "campus".

Probably the same time buying all your insurance needs is now called "Bundling"...I hate "Buzz words"

In my country we've used 'campus' as a term to describe a collection of buildings that belong to a given institution, either academic or non-academic, for most of my adult life.

Anyhow, hope those on the aforementioned campus get the problem sorted quick smart and that this causes no further delays.
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 15):
What I want to know is, when did a factory or assembly plant become a "campus".

When you want to promote your facility as a "high tech" operation.   

In Everett, the 'factory" usually mean the main assembly building. The factory is located within the main SITE or "campus" which may contain engineering and or sub-assembly work. There can be several smaller campus (off-site) located near by but may not be directly attached inside the main perimeter fence.

bt
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tdscanuck
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:10 am

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 15):
What I want to know is, when did a factory or assembly plant become a "campus".

Campus: a large, usually suburban, landscaped business or industrial site (one of several possible but legitimate definitions).

One factor or one plant is not a campus; the Boeing facility at Charleston, consisting as it does of many buildings and functions spread over a large area, is correctly called a campus.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 19):
Seriously doubt its FOD, I think its funny that A.net has narrowed a GE failure it down to FOD with absolutely no evidence whatsoever

No evidence? You've got an engine that liberated hot parts but *didn't* do enough damage to cause an emergency, call in ARFF on the plane, or do any aircraft damage. FOD is, by far, the most likely event that fits the facts we know so far.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 25):
With all due respect, FOD seems unlikely to me. Reports are that the engine debris started a grass fire. That would strongly suggest that Hot Section parts were released. That would be some very serious FOD to cause release of Hot Section parts . . .

Hot section parts coming out is a normal response to FOD; the clearances up front are pretty large; it's in the hot section that they get tight and the parts are under most stress. That's the most likely part of the engine to let something go if FOD comes in the front end. That's why you usually find turbine blade bits in the exhaust nozzle before anything else.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
This does not sound like a FOD incident to me as there was no visible fan section damage.

It's a GEnX...which means CFRP fan blades. Those things are incredibly hard to kill. If it was small size FOD (necessary to get through the engine at all), it's not likely to do noticeable damage to the fan section.

Tom.
 
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 36):
No evidence? You've got an engine that liberated hot parts but *didn't* do enough damage to cause an emergency, call in ARFF on the plane, or do any aircraft damage. FOD is, by far, the most likely event that fits the facts we know so far.

Jon Ostrower tweets that FOD has been ruled out and that focus is now on rear hot turbine section of the GEnx-1b

edit:

GE say that they suspect problem was in the low pressure turbine.

Quote:
Kennedy said the malfunction was a “contained failure,” meaning debris came from the back of the engine instead of shooting through the side of the engine. Because it was a contained failure, GE Aviation is focusing on the back end of the engine, which houses the low-pressure turbines.

“We don’t know the cause,” Kennedy said. “But we’re focused very heavily on the low-pressure turbine.”
http://www.charlestonbusiness.com/ne...-cincinnati-service-facility?rss=0



[Edited 2012-07-30 18:46:11]
BV
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:55 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 37):
Jon Ostrower tweets that FOD has been ruled out and that focus is now on rear hot turbine section of the GEnx-1b

edit:

GE say that they suspect problem was in the low pressure turbine.

If it's the LP and not FOD, most likely cause is a blade-out. Obviously unfortunate, not unheard of.

Tom.
 
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:18 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 38):
most likely cause is a blade-out.

Surely if that was the case Tom, the focus would be more to the front of the engine? Or is there another lot of blades in the latter part? Need to have a look at an engine diagram to understand. Low-pressure turbines... got it.
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:20 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 37):
GE say that they suspect problem was in the low pressure turbine.

GE went too aggressive with the LPT blade reduction on the GEnx, requiring them to add a fair number of blades back into the module with PiP1...
 
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:49 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):

GE went too aggressive with the LPT blade reduction on the GEnx, requiring them to add a fair number of blades back into the module with PiP1...

Yup, this is how they clawed back some of the performance deficit.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 38):
If it's the LP and not FOD, most likely cause is a blade-out. Obviously unfortunate, not unheard of.

On the information *now* available this would seem to be the most likely cause.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 36):
No evidence? You've got an engine that liberated hot parts but *didn't* do enough damage to cause an emergency, call in ARFF on the plane, or do any aircraft damage.

I guess if the plane returned to stand under her own power we can conclude that there were no indications of trouble on the flight deck, no FD indications would be a worry if the GEnx-1b had indeed thrown a blade.
BV
 
barney captain
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:04 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 32):
Boeing will be very sensitive to bad PR.

Yup. Perhaps someone can confirm a WN departure and subsequent diversion due to FOD damage out of CHS shortly after the 787 engine "incident". Bad form to shell an engine on a runway and not tell anybody.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
sweair
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:36 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 42):
Bad form to shell an engine on a runway and not tell anybody.

Maybe they didn't notice this, I am sure Boeing follows all rules, silly to think otherwise IMO.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:49 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 39):
Surely if that was the case Tom, the focus would be more to the front of the engine?

"Blade out" just means you lost a blade. It can happen on any rotor; it's much more common to happen on the turbine than on the fan or compressor ("the front end"). The fan blade-out test is the most spectacular so that's what most people know about but it's also the least common.

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 39):
Or is there another lot of blades in the latter part? Need to have a look at an engine diagram to understand.

Lots. There are dozens of stages in a modern engine, each with its own row of blades.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 41):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 38):
If it's the LP and not FOD, most likely cause is a blade-out. Obviously unfortunate, not unheard of.

On the information *now* available this would seem to be the most likely cause.

Yes, sorry if I didn't make that clear. As we get more information, obviously, the set of possible causes shrinks. My point was just that we didn't have "no evidence" at the beginning...we knew enough to eliminate quite a few possible causes.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 41):
I guess if the plane returned to stand under her own power we can conclude that there were no indications of trouble on the flight deck, no FD indications would be a worry if the GEnx-1b had indeed thrown a blade.

Loss of a single blade, or portion of a blade, may not degrade EGT enough or cause enough vibration to have any positive indication. This is why engines get periodic borescopes. It's also why flight crews inspect the exhaust nozzles for debris after initial flights.

Tom.
 
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PW100
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 41):
I guess if the plane returned to stand under her own power we can conclude that there were no indications of trouble on the flight deck, no FD indications would be a worry if the GEnx-1b had indeed thrown a blade.

They could have shut the engine down after abnormal engine parameters (Vibrations, ITT, Fuel Flow etc) as a result of some turbine failure. Provided indicated temperatures drop, and no fire indication, there would be no reason for ARFF services, and they could have taxied back to their ramp on the remaining engine.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 37):
on Ostrower tweets that FOD has been ruled out and that focus is now on rear hot turbine section of the GEnx-1b

edit:

GE say that they suspect problem was in the low pressure turbine.

That would be not too bad intially. As long as the debris is contained, as the statements now suggest, the engine did exactly what it is supposed to do:
* contain the failure;
* prevent high energy debris from damaging other (vital) engine or airframe parts;
* allowing sufficient time and opportunity for a controlled shut down;
* preventing (uncontrollable) fire.

The good news thus is that airworthiness - of this engine, and therefore also for the rest of the fleet - is not affected. So there will be no immediate regulatory action on the GEnx fleet.

The bad news is that this might have a direct effect on ETOPS ratings, which do not really look at airworthiness, but focusses on reliability (yes, there is an important difference).Such a failure can have a not insignificant effect due to the relatively low hours and cycles of the fleet.
The significancy of such depends on the findings and root cause analysis. If it's a manufacturing or operational defect, that might be relatively easy to overcome. A more structural problem requiring re-designs might be a different story, and can have a ripple effect on future PIPs.

Rgds,
PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:04 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 42):
Yup. Perhaps someone can confirm a WN departure and subsequent diversion due to FOD damage out of CHS shortly after the 787 engine "incident". Bad form to shell an engine on a runway and not tell anybody.

I would too like confirmation of such an event.

Just not sporting to force Southwest to divert. Someone might have found that inconvenient.

Quoting sweair (Reply 43):
I am sure Boeing follows all rules, silly to think otherwise IMO.
Quoting PW100 (Reply 45):
* preventing (uncontrollable) fire.

rephrase. preventing (uncontrollable) airframe fire.

Its still bad form to start a grass fire...

Quoting PW100 (Reply 45):
The significancy of such depends on the findings and root cause analysis.

I'm certain GEnX customers are pounding on GE's door for a summary.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
barney captain
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:37 pm

Southeast Of Disorder
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:57 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 41):
I guess if the plane returned to stand under her own power we can conclude that there were no indications of trouble on the flight deck, no FD indications would be a worry if the GEnx-1b had indeed thrown a blade.

Wouldn't a turbine blade out cause a huge amount of vibration if the engine continued to run because of the imbalance?

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 44):
Loss of a single blade, or portion of a blade, may not degrade EGT enough or cause enough vibration to have any positive indication. This is why engines get periodic borescopes. It's also why flight crews inspect the exhaust nozzles for debris after initial flights.

Why not? When I was in college and grad school, we used centrifuges capable of a few thousand RPM (and ultracentrafuges that spun their rotors in evacuated chambers capable of tens of thousands of RPM) in the biology labs. We were warned that even a minor rotor imbalance could cause severe vibration and damage (to the point of irreparable) the equipment. When I would set the ultracentrifuge to 100,000 RPM, I'd usually find another room to hang out in (not that two building walls would have stopped the schrapnel in the case of a rotor failure).

Jet engines have similar RPM's and radii to these larger centrifuges, so I wonder why a blade off would not cause detectable vibration.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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lightsaber
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RE: Debris From B787 Engine Sparks Fire In S.C.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 47):
FWIW,

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/S.../KBNA

Scooby says:"Roh Roh!"

At least it all stayed in the GE/Boeing family.   

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain

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