Gonzalo
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AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:39 pm

Apparently not only the small regional carriers are suffering the adverse economic situation in Europe...

AF/KL Group blames the restructuring process and internal accounting changes, but still, looks very disappointing...


http://atwonline.com/airline-finance...posts-895-million-2q-net-loss-0730


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PlymSpotter
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
AF/KL Group blames the restructuring process and internal accounting changes, but still, looks very disappointing...

Well yes it looks disappointing, until you read this, which is much more important:

Quote:
The airline group’s second-quarter operating loss was €66 million, more than halving a €145 million operating deficit in the 2011 June quarter.

Dan  
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Gonzalo
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 1):
Well yes it looks disappointing, until you read this, which is much more important:

Quote:The airline group’s second-quarter operating loss was €66 million, more than halving a €145 million operating deficit in the 2011 June quarter.
Dan

Yes, but come on, the AF/KL Group was created in 2004, and 8 years later they are still talking about changes in the accounting process and restructuring and bla bla bla. After reading this kind of things someone could think that this "consolidation" ( or the name you like more for this ), was not a very good idea, at least for one of the airlines involved... Just my humble opinion...

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Asturias
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 2):
After reading this kind of things someone could think that this "consolidation" ( or the name you like more for this ), was not a very good idea, at least for one of the airlines involved... Just my humble opinion...

Keep your voice down, there are some true believers in airline mergers/consolidation here that will have their feelings hurt if you point out the obvious: mergers aren't a magic bullet and are largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things (except they deliver a hefty bonus to the executives involved)

Another example is the creation of the aptly named International Consolidated Airlines Group which has done nothing in particular for the airlines involves, but it has made some executives very very rich.

In my experience there's only one thing that *really* works: a well run company. Now I'm not saying AF or KL aren't well run, but a lot of effort an energy is wasted in consolidation, effort that would be better spent in day to day managing of the companies.
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:30 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 3):
Another example is the creation of the aptly named International Consolidated Airlines Group which has done nothing in particular for the airlines involves, but it has made some executives very very rich.

Surely it's a tad too early to judge whether the formation of IAG was a success? They don't seem to be doing too badly, although I will confess, I haven't kept up to date with recent events/announcements.
 
Gonzalo
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting U2380 (Reply 4):
Surely it's a tad too early to judge whether the formation of IAG was a success? They don't seem to be doing too badly, although I will confess, I haven't kept up to date with recent events/announcements.

I don't have updated information either. Maybe a little off topic, but I can tell you, at least among a number of the South American passengers, there were hope of a better service in IB when they became part of IAG, supposedly due to some sort of customer service learning form BA. Those hopes already vanished, and certainly killing the hopes of a better service today could have an adverse effect in the net results tomorrow...

Rgds.

G.
Edited for typo

[Edited 2012-07-30 10:44:04]
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Aesma
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:01 pm

I don't see what the loss has to do with the merger. AF has been looking for a restructuring for a long time, but things weren't bad enough (and political pressure during the presidential campaign) until now to actually go ahead with it.

There are airlines left and right going bankrupt currently, mergers or no mergers.
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TeamintheSky
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 2):
Yes, but come on, the AF/KL Group was created in 2004, and 8 years later they are still talking about changes in the accounting process and restructuring and bla bla bla. After reading this kind of things someone could think that this "consolidation" ( or the name you like more for this ), was not a very good idea, at least for one of the airlines involved... Just my humble opinion...

Remember Gonzalo, it always gets darkest before the dawn. Maybe I fly AF too much or maybe I am just too young, but I do believe that AF is finally making the corrective action needed to get their balance sheet in order. They are paying down their crushing debt, trying to strike deals with unions to prevent labor action, starting to cut down the bureaucracy, their load factors are up on long-haul, and they are actually see reduction in operating losses.

Like DL, some of these heavy losses can be contributed to accounting rules, not actual money out of pocket.

AF have a long way to go, I think AF is finally positioning themselves as they should have been for years. Especially with the new S4 pier open, I really hope the best for AF!
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Apparently not only the small regional carriers are suffering the adverse economic situation in Europe...

AF/KL Group blames the restructuring process and internal accounting changes, but still, looks very disappointing...

Disappointing??? You do realize that their results IMPROVED, right? I have no dog in this fight, but the results were positive, despite the overall loss. Thus the reason for their stock being up 17% today.
 
FI642
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:53 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 3):
Keep your voice down, there are some true believers in airline mergers/consolidation here that will have their feelings hurt if you point out the obvious: mergers aren't a magic bullet and are largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things (except they deliver a hefty bonus to the executives involved)

That is too true. Rank and file never are rewarded for their extreme efforts.
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lightsaber
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:25 am

Quoting TIA (Reply 8):
Disappointing??? You do realize that their results IMPROVED,

   That's improved?  

Seriously, while a few hundred million might be ignore-able by AF-KL, the forward looking indicators are not positive for the French economy as well as the whole European economy.

I suspect they took a charge to make future earnings look better.

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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:12 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):

Seriously, while a few hundred million might be ignore-able by AF-KL, the forward looking indicators are not positive for the French economy as well as the whole European economy.

Actually same goes for the US economy, which isn´t really running "full steam" at the moment as well. For all carriers operating on the North Atlantic it will mean depressed earnings ´cause the volume will not be there on either side of the pond.

And - for the record - I remember a pretty interesting game in Washington DC a couple of months ago with the target to raise the overall debt cieling by a couple of trillion USD... whilest Europe is currently cetainly in focus concerning debts, one has to raise the question what ever-expanding debt in the US will mean to global aviation traffic once the necessity to cut down on budgets will start in the US. Not the rosiest picutre...
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mikey72
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:05 am

Could KL split from AF and join IAG ?

I guess the band wagon is too far down the road (alliances, DL, etc) for that.

If only the KL/BA merger had progressed to fruition.

I can't help but think a IB, AF and AZ combo would have been optimal.
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r2rho
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:45 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 1):
Well yes it looks disappointing, until you read this, which is much more important:

Quote:
The airline group’s second-quarter operating loss was €66 million, more than halving a €145 million operating deficit in the 2011 June quarter.

Or also:

boosted second-quarter revenue 4.5%. Second-quarter group passenger capacity was up just 0.3% year-over-year to 67.46 billion ASMs, while traffic heightened 2.4% to 55.82 billion RPKs. Load factor was 82.8%, up 1.7 points.

In any case, these are just quarterly results. They provide an instantaneous photo as required by stock markets, but that's it. I never make interpretations of quarterly results. Yearly results, yes. Evolution from year-to-year, even better. But this is just an instantaneous picture of an airline that is optimizing its operations. Let's see how it evolves, and if they succeed to return to profitability. I like the idea of the regional bases, or merging its three regional carriers, improving crew productivity, etc. The opening of CDG S4 should (hopefully!) much improve operations there.
 
klmcedric
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:01 pm

If fuel prices remain where they are right now for some time, the year result will be much better then last year.

That huge loss in the first quarter is a direct result of the massive cost cutting measures that are being put into
place. Seems contradictory, but that's how it is.

Operating result is what really counts.
 
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:52 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 3):
In my experience there's only one thing that *really* works: a well run company. Now I'm not saying AF or KL aren't well run, but a lot of effort an energy is wasted in consolidation, effort that would be better spent in day to day managing of the companies.

Very well said, and so true.
 
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:31 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 13):
I can't help but think a IB, AF and AZ combo would have been optimal.

Spain, France and Italy? With the economic and political situations of those 3 countries, I would think that would have been a recipe for disaster.
 
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:31 pm

Quoting rbgso (Reply 16):
Very well said, and so true.

Yes it is.

Surprisingly considering what I post on here I am not a fan of consolidation I just merely see it as a run away train that once started is impossible to stop. Kind of like a wild horse running towards a burning stable.

It is band wagon that once moving no airline can resist jumping on and we must now try amd make the most of it.

KL must be wondering how AF will achieve its aim with a socialist French government to appease.
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kl911
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 18):
KL must be wondering how AF will achieve its aim with a socialist French government to appease.

And KLM is doing much better then AF. Actually, it might make a profit, and AF losses. AF has serious issues with Unions, something Holland hardly has.
 
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Aesma
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:33 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 18):
KL must be wondering how AF will achieve its aim with a socialist French government to appease.

The government (and most of the staff, but not the PNC) seems satisfied with the plan that includes no firings.
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lightsaber
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 12):
Actually same goes for the US economy, which isn´t really running "full steam" at the moment as well. For all carriers operating on the North Atlantic it will mean depressed earnings ´cause the volume will not be there on either side of the pond.

No disagreement there. Not something that will help AL-KL what so ever.

If you want to add to the fun, India is stalling too; It simply isn't sporting of them to have national blackouts...
Short on coal to fire tens of thousands of MW of electrical generation?!? (WSJ doesn't link, but its on Google news right now.)

So we are looking for a "fun" fall for aviation.  

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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:22 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
I suspect they took a charge to make future earnings look better.

You can't do that; if you do, and get caught, it's considered earnings manipulation, a form of securities fraud.

Take charges for legitimate reasons as early as possible? Sure.

Take charges just to increase future earnings?   
 
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lightsaber
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 21):
You can't do that; if you do, and get caught, it's considered earnings manipulation, a form of securities fraud.

  

I'm sure the reasons were 'legitimate.' However, taking such a charge so far into the AF-KL merger? This is to 'clean up' the books for future hard times. Pick your wording, the effect is the same. In effect AF-KL has cut their depreciation expenses for the next few years due to this charge. The charge will boost future earnings during a difficult time.

GE was able to manage their earnings for a decade. They made the money, they were just selective on when to take charges.

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TYCOON
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:28 pm

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but this was actually GOOD news... AF/KL have been improving their operating performance and the losses were due to exceptional, one time right offs. The investor/financial community recognizes this as following this announcement share prices went up!
And, just to correct everyone's preconceived notions, the French economy, while not bubbly, is in relative comparison OK... Germany and France still are the motors of Europe and neither economy is officially in recession... The UK is in much worse shape economically than France, and there is just no comparison between Italy and Spain, and France.
 
TeamintheSky
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
I'm sure the reasons were 'legitimate.' However, taking such a charge so far into the AF-KL merger? This is to 'clean up' the books for future hard times. Pick your wording, the effect is the same. In effect AF-KL has cut their depreciation expenses for the next few years due to this charge. The charge will boost future earnings during a difficult time.

GE was able to manage their earnings for a decade. They made the money, they were just selective on when to take charges.

Lightsaber

As an accountant, I can confirm that in French GAAP as well as US GAAP rules due allow some wiggle room when to take charges and write down values (or sometimes up values). Which while earnings manipulation is wrong, there are ways to smooth earnings for reporting purposes.

All major airlines do this, which is why all earnings reports have to be taken with some grain of salt.
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
Could KL split from AF and join IAG ?

It would be a huge negative. IAG/OW offers very little to KL. KL is very strong in Asia/China and feeds AMS. They have a superb link with DL, which with such a change would leave them with AA!! They seem to be headed in the right direction on their own, without IAG's help.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 23):
The UK is in much worse shape economically than France,

Would agree and the UK Government seems to have no idea/direction to change the downward spiral. Tax is all they seem to focus on, hope the Olympics can help, but when they are finished I am concerned.
 
icna05e
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 2):
Group was created in 2004, and 8 years later they are still talking about changes in the accounting process and restructuring
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
taking such a charge so far into the AF-KL merger?

I might be wrong, but I don't see how those charges are blamed on the merger. Restructuration happens anytime when a company tries to improve their financial performance, in this case the plan is "transform2015" (cheesy huh?). Like Airbus had "Power8" 4 or 5 years ago, they too took a hit to prepare the plan. No merger involved.
Changes in the accounting rules? What does it have to do with the merger?

Anyways, still a pretty big operating loss on their part. Any negative result is a disappointing result! I hope their restructuration is successful and they turn the numbers around. But I wouldn't say they're headed in the right direction; they are just burning planeloads of money in their regional bases "strategy" which is taking a serious punch not even a year into it (and that was long enough!).

On a brighter note, it does look like things are improving at CDG and they have actual plans to reshape their double regional partner. But that is being opposed by Regional's pilots, too...
 
icarus75
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:57 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 17):
KL must be wondering how AF will achieve its aim with a socialist French government to appease.

I'm french and I'm wondering the same thing about....our new government! I think we're going in he wall!! 
Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
The government (and most of the staff, but not the PNC) seems satisfied with the plan that includes no firings.

This plan is mean to allow economies and I do not understand the position of the PNC.
If you take LH as an example : 3 PNC for a A319 vs 4 PNC with AF.
I've flown and fly at leas once a week with LH and I do not see less service or security!!!!
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TIA
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
Seriously, while a few hundred million might be ignore-able by AF-KL, the forward looking indicators are not positive for the French economy as well as the whole European economy.

Exactly. But their results improved despite a worsening/uncertain economic environment.
 
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Aesma
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:40 am

Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 27):
I do not understand the position of the PNC

Well, I don't know exactly what's the problem, but if we take your example, I could see why they wouldn't want to work 33% more, would you want to ?
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F9Animal
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:49 am

I just hope we see a turn around to profits. I hope all the best, because AF-KL are awesome!
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lear35pilot
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:39 am

While this announcement way show progress in AF/KLM financial performance, their customer service, both on the ground and in the air still falls far below that of BA, LH, Aa, DL, and UA....not to mention most large Asian carriers. I just returned from Paris, flying round trip in J on AF A380 from JFK on fights AF #6 and #7. My experience with AF was so bad, I will never fly them again. I paid full J class fare, and was treated like a stowaway. Poor boarding process, where premium passengers were not given priority boarding, extremely average cabin service, one of the worst business class seats in the sky, and lost baggage on my return (which I am still waiting for). The worst part of my recent experience centered on the fact that Air France staff never thanked me for my business, never recognized my elite plus status on SkyTeam (via DL Diamond medallion status), nor made any special effort to reaccommodate me during a 7 hour delay in Paris on my return to JFK.

Oh yeah....and when I pressed for detail as to why my bags didn't make it back to the US with me, I was told that they didn't have enough time to load all bags on the plane. I checked in at 10am, and our flight pushed back at 8pm...a full 10 hours later. Nice way to treat your customers..most especially those that are most likely to drive their improved financial performance going forward.

I am a seasoned traveler, with a million miles on two different airlines. AF, by a significant margin, is the worst airline I have ever flown. Never again......
 
Burkhard
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:54 am

I think one has to compare the operating loss of 66Mio with the same quarter numbers of LH, which are +361Mio, to see that they still have a lot to do...
 
rwsea
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:30 am

Quoting lear35pilot (Reply 31):
While this announcement way show progress in AF/KLM financial performance, their customer service, both on the ground and in the air still falls far below that of BA, LH, Aa, DL, and UA....not to mention most large Asian carriers. I just returned from Paris, flying round trip in J on AF A380 from JFK on fights AF #6 and #7. My experience with AF was so bad, I will never fly them again. I paid full J class fare, and was treated like a stowaway. Poor boarding process, where premium passengers were not given priority boarding, extremely average cabin service, one of the worst business class seats in the sky, and lost baggage on my return (which I am still waiting for). The worst part of my recent experience centered on the fact that Air France staff never thanked me for my business, never recognized my elite plus status on SkyTeam (via DL Diamond medallion status), nor made any special effort to reaccommodate me during a 7 hour delay in Paris on my return to JFK.

While KLM is much better than Air France, you're still correct for the most part. This company has some of the worst customer service I've ever seen (I guess it should be expected though when you combine French and Dutch customer service into a single company!). I wouldn't feel too bad about your lack of recognition ... they treat their own FlyingBlue members equally bad. Unfortunately, AF/KL seems to be reacting to the continued losses by cutting passenger service and the FF program even more, rather than investing in any sort of improvements. I guess the point is, given all the choices out there, why choose an outdated business class, mediocre to poor service, and a poor FF plan when there are other options?

The biggest problem seems to be AF's bloated union contracts and the paralysis of constant strikes... but surely some customer enhancements could drive increases to the top line.
 
Gonzalo
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:03 pm

Quoting lear35pilot (Reply 31):
I am a seasoned traveler, with a million miles on two different airlines. AF, by a significant margin, is the worst airline I have ever flown. Never again......

I'm baffled by the lack of improvements in both AF from KL and IB from BA. I'm fully aware that consolidation has nothing to do with service on board, and that each airline continues its operations under their own brands/policies and all that, but from a customer point of view one could expect some sort of requirement of improvement from the "best airline" in the equation ( KL and BA in this cases ) to the other counterpart, basically for two reasons, one, to avoid PR damages since they are considered by many people as one single company, and two, because in the world we are living today, with cellphones with cameras/youtube/internet being much more accessible to more and more people, the bad experiences can be published all over the world, impacting at the end of the day the sales, and the financial results.
Experiences like the one of lear35pilot will not help to turn around the losses into earnings...

Rgds.

G.
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par13del
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:13 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 3):
Another example is the creation of the aptly named International Consolidated Airlines Group which has done nothing in particular for the airlines involves, but it has made some executives very very rich.
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 17):
It is band wagon that once moving no airline can resist jumping on and we must now try amd make the most of it.

Those doing the jumping are investors and or senior management, in essense the folks who are the "paper airline", the others who are the thousands of workers in most instances are not involved in the merger, not consulted, and are simply told what to do. Unless their jobs go away, they struggle on working and watch the results like the rest of us.
 
icarus75
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 29):
Well, I don't know exactly what's the problem, but if we take your example, I could see why they wouldn't want to work 33% more, would you want to ?

I do not see why LH PNC can work like that and not AF PNC! That was my point!
They also do not want arguing that's for security reasons! It doesn't seem there's less security with LH
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:05 pm

Well until an LH plane crashes we can't really know, so I hope we'll never know. Also I'm not familiar with the conditions LH provides to its crew. It seems that PNC on long haul AF flights are concerned with a reduction of recuperation time.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Amsterdam
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:51 pm

KLM operates full fokkers and embraers with 100 pax including 'business class' on short streches with only 2 cabin crew.
The French have to work harder.
There should be no discussion. A 10 year old can see that.
KLM pilots voluntarily work on the ground connecting bridges and other stuff if needed, to help their company (and by doing so themselfs).
I've been told French pilots only laughed at that when they heard about it.
 
Amsterdam
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 29):
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 3207 posts, RR: 3
Reply 29, posted Fri Aug 3 2012 05:40:08 your local time (1 day 12 hours 11 minutes ago) and read 1067 times:


Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 27):
I do not understand the position of the PNC

Well, I don't know exactly what's the problem, but if we take your example, I could see why they wouldn't want to work 33% more, would you want to ?

Going from 4 to 3 cabin crew means that 3 have to do the 25% work of that 4th one.
Divided by them 3, which makes each of the 3 having to do just 8% extra of the work on board.
 
TYCOON
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:37 pm

lear35pilot, while I sympathize with your unfortunate experience with AF, I couldn't disagree with you more strongly. Of all the airlines you mention, IMHO AF has the best customer service (and also the best food, which is not saying much).
In my lifetime, I have flown AF 713 times, DL 303 times, BA (59x), LH (45x), KL (44x), IB (38x) and AA (22x), in the premium and economy cabins on all of them.
A recent example of superior AF service was just a few weeks ago, I barely made it to the airport due to the meeting going on longer than expected, and in any event, it was past the 30 minute cut off time, nonetheless, AF re-opened the flight and allowed me to board.... Last May, I mistakenly showed up at Orly for a Friday afternoon flight to Nice when my flight was actually from CDG (first time that has ever happened to me... must be age!). All the flights for that long May weekend were packed solid and I had a cheapo fare. The desk attended at the SKY PRIORITY counter took me under his wing, shut down his computer, walked me personally to the AF ticket office and forced open a seat on the next Nice flight, and then after that, he personally escorted me through the PRIORITY security line at ORY and wished me a pleasant journey. Never had that from any of the others...
Last June on the same CDG-JFK A380 flight you were on, I was upgraded to first class "as a sign of appreciation for being a loyal customer". On this flight, I also had by far the best meal ever on a plane.
I am an elite level frequent flyer with BA, and I have never received an upgrade.
Last July, I flew DL in business class, and no mention was made of me being an Elite Plus member "for life" of the Skyteam programme. Nor has this ever been recognized by BA or AA via my elite status in OneWorld. So it's hardly automatic.
Baggage problems unfortunately hit every carrier, but AF has always delivered it to my door (or hotel) within 24 hours. There are alot worse than AF in this department... TK comes to mind.... some of the worst customer service I have ever come across.
 
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Aesma
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 39):
Going from 4 to 3 cabin crew means that 3 have to do the 25% work of that 4th one.
Divided by them 3, which makes each of the 3 having to do just 8% extra of the work on board.

You can't play with percentages like that (but granted, a 10-year-old would make the same mistake).

Convert in works hours and you'll see I'm right. If each 4 crew works 3 hours on a flight, 12 hours are worked. Now 3 crew have to do that same work, 4 hours each. 4 hours is 33% more than three hours. Of course the flight being the same length of time, they have to do 4 hours work in 3 hours.

If we count in meals served it's simpler. 150 passengers means 150 meals to serve, or 37,5 meals for each 4 crew. With 3 crew, it's 50 meals, 33% more than 37,5.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aquila3
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 37):
Well until an LH plane crashes we can't really know

Well. I sure hope you do NOT really hope that.
Certain affirmations should be just avoided, in my humble opinion.
It can be good to be nationalist (as most French rightly are) but this is too much.

And BTW, I do not believe AF has much to advertise on that sad side of statistics.
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
 
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Aesma
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:32 pm

Why did you cut the end of my sentence where I said I hope we never know ? As for a crash where cabin crew mattered, AF had one recently (the A340 at Toronto) and the evacuation was greatly executed considering the circumstances.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Amsterdam
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 41):
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 3208 posts, RR: 3
Reply 41, posted Sat Aug 4 2012 21:01:27 your local time (22 minutes 9 secs ago) and read 53 times:


Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 39):
Going from 4 to 3 cabin crew means that 3 have to do the 25% work of that 4th one.
Divided by them 3, which makes each of the 3 having to do just 8% extra of the work on board.

You can't play with percentages like that (but granted, a 10-year-old would make the same mistake).

Convert in works hours and you'll see I'm right. If each 4 crew works 3 hours on a flight, 12 hours are worked. Now 3 crew have to do that same work, 4 hours each. 4 hours is 33% more than three hours. Of course the flight being the same length of time, they have to do 4 hours work in 3 hours.

If we count in meals served it's simpler. 150 passengers means 150 meals to serve, or 37,5 meals for each 4 crew. With 3 crew, it's 50 meals, 33% more than 37,5

All those words to say that 8% is about 1/3 of 25%.
Which was already clear for anyone reading my post obviously.

Anyway, if 4 cabin crew is significantly safer than 3, then why not take 5 of them on board to make it extra safe?
And 3 pilots on every flight.

One more example.
KLM uses the same flightplanning system/fuel planning system as Lufthansa, and KLM and LH take much less fuel with them on every flight.
This reduces their fuel costs a lot (less weight = less fuel burn).
KLM flies with minimum fuel: minimum reserve (minimum in tanks at moment of touchdown required by law) + alternate fuel + trip fuel (for the flight). Pilots take extra fuel in case of expected delays/weather.
When thats not the case, this means you almost don't have time to hold before you have to decide to divert or dedicate yourself to your destination airport, however this is PLANNED.
Cause usually you get some shortcuts along the way, so you use less fuel than your planned trip fuel, so you'll have some holding time at your destination.
To make a long stroy short: it works.
There is no significant increase in diversions since KLM has this new fuel policy.
And they safe huge amounts of fuel with this. So does LH.

But for whatever reason AF doesn't do that.

[Edited 2012-08-04 12:46:38]

[Edited 2012-08-04 12:47:06]
 
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SQ22
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 44):
KLM uses the same flightplanning system/fuel planning system as Lufthansa, and KLM and LH take much less fuel with them on every flight.

Interesting. Did they develop it together? Is it from a third party provider?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 29):
Well, I don't know exactly what's the problem, but if we take your example, I could see why they wouldn't want to work 33% more, would you want to ?

There's a lot of things in life I don't wanna do, but if my company is losing money hand over foot, you better believe I'd want to work more to keep my job. I don't want to sound French bashing, but many of their workers have much more time off than many other Western nations' workers. Times are tough, I think AF workers may need to sacrifice a bit to help pull their company out of the red. JMO.
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
Amsterdam
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting SQ22 (Reply 45):
Interesting. Did they develop it together? Is it from a third party provider?

I'm not sure.
But I think it's developed by Lufthansa Systems.
The flight planning system is called LIDO.
 
lear35pilot
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:47 am

Tycoon....while I appreciate your comments, there is no way your going to change my mind about Air France. Like you, i have flown on many airlines, I have seen the good and bad of many airlines in the US, Europe, and Asia. I find it hard to believe that the experience i had on two AF flights, which were 14 days apart, was the exception not the rule on how AF operates. The staff in the air and on the ground had the same smug attitude, and none of them appeared to enjoy their profession or appeared to care about the customer experience. It was almost a cliche.

You clearly have had a better experience with them. I will never given them another cent of my hard heard money. Too many other airlines are more consistent in customer service and premium product offerings.

Just curious though.... Do you really think the AF J class seat is competitive? The food was okay...but on such a new plane, the AF biz seat is substandard IMHO.
 
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Aesma
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RE: AF-KL Huge Net Loss Of USD 1.1 Billion In 2ndQ

Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:42 am

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 44):
All those words to say that 8% is about 1/3 of 25%.
Which was already clear for anyone reading my post obviously.

No what is clear is that you're very bad at maths. If I'm doing 1/3 of your work on top of mine, I'm not working 8% more but 33% more.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

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