LAXintl
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Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:15 pm

Delta Airlines today formally asked the DOT for permission to move its 7 weekly Detroit-Haneda slots to Seattle.

Delta states that market conditions based on actual operating experience show that the Detroit-Haneda route is under performing, and the carrier seeks the flexibility to move the slots to the West Coast.

DL believes a SEA-Haneda service would be both more attractive for the consumer, and be a better fit for the carrier.


OST-2010-0018


So lets see if anyone objects    calling --- Hawaiian, United, etc...

[Edited 2012-07-30 15:17:05]
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Mir
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:20 pm

Is the SEA-Haneda market big enough to support the flight by O&D alone (or at least a vast portion of the flight)? DL doesn't have a whole lot of feed going into SEA, and there's no onward traffic at the HND end. I could see other airlines making a case for this. I'm sure UA would like to get a SFO-HND service going, and that would seem to be the most logical place to move that flight.

-Mir
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BoeingGuy
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:21 pm

Would DL have two flights a day SEA-HND and SEA-NRT? Or would HND replace NRT?

That would be interesting to see four daily SEA-Tokyo flights - maybe five if the AA/JL venture adds SEA-NRT.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:23 pm

So that would make:

UA SEA-NRT
NH SEA-NRT
DL SEA-NRT
DL SEA-HND
DL-SEA-KIX

As far as SEA to Japan goes. Hmm, that's a lot of capacity.   
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G500
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:24 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta Airlines today formally asked the DOT for permission to move its 7 weekly Detroit-Haneda slots to Seattle

I agree with that..

I know Detroit is a "Delta hub", but as far as O&D traffic to/from Asia, Seattle blows Detroit away... SEA can self-sustain, DL won't have to rely on connecting passengers

my 2 cents
 
commavia
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:33 pm

Smart move. Shorter flight, less fuel, plenty of Delta/Alaska connections over SEA. Plus the shorter flight time and time difference also mean a fairly reasonable schedule (at least out of SEA).

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 2):
Would DL have two flights a day SEA-HND and SEA-NRT? Or would HND replace NRT?

I think they would have to. HND would be near entirely O&D and/or connections on the SEA end. NRT would be largely connections on the Japan end. They serve two different functions, but seeing as Delta used NRT as a connection to points in Asia, I don't see how they could possible cut SEA off from that intra-Asia network (since any alternative Delta routing SEA-Asia would then require substantial backtracking or flights on a codeshare partner).

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 2):
That would be interesting to see four daily SEA-Tokyo flights - maybe five if the AA/JL venture adds SEA-NRT.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
So that would make:

UA SEA-NRT
NH SEA-NRT
DL SEA-NRT
DL SEA-HND
DL-SEA-KIX

As far as SEA to Japan goes. Hmm, that's a lot of capacity.

That is too much capacity. If this happens, I predict United will quickly exit the SEA-NRT market - now that they have ATI/JV partner ANA in the market, there is really no longer a need for a United-operated flight, and if the market is flooded with even more of this capacity, I don't think they will be able to keep that flight going even if they want to.
 
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:38 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta Airlines today formally asked the DOT for permission to move its 7 weekly Detroit-Haneda slots to Seattle.

I can see UA especially, and then maybe AA and HA all filing objectings to this.......

I don't think it's gonna be so easy, but they may be able to do it.


 
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Is the SEA-Haneda market big enough to support the flight by O&D alone (or at least a vast portion of the flight)? DL doesn't have a whole lot of feed going into SEA, and there's no onward traffic at the HND end. I could see other airlines making a case for this.

SEA-HND wouldn't be totally O&D. DL is partnered with AS to feed the DL international flights. I think DL has plenty of potential here. I would imagine the flights were start as 767-300ER's.
 
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:44 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
but as far as O&D traffic to/from Asia, Seattle blows Detroit away

Thats actually not quite true. They are not that far apart, however Seattle's Asia O&D is a lot more widespread. Detroits O&D is highly tied to the auto industry and is heavily concentrated to a few cities (namely NGO and PVG).
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sr117
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:56 pm

Can't say I'm too surprised. AA must not be too happy with performance on their JFK-HND flight either but they have even less options of moving the slot around their network.

I'm sure UA an HA will object, although, even if the request is denied I'm sure DL has the option of maintaining the route from DTW.

They probably have the numbers to back up SEA, because otherwise they probably would have asked for HNL-HND instead.

Daytime slots will be assigned in 2013, so I wonder if incumbents AA, DL and HA will get first dibs on these...
 
LAXintl
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:57 pm

Well it will be interesting of the DOT allows the move, as they made a pretty good case against awarding the service to Seattle to begin with.

Seattle (along with Detroit) were the smallest local markets in the route case, and that Delta would be relying heavily on its partner Alaska for connecting traffic flow – something it does not have full pricing or marketing control over. Also the DOT went out of its way to ensure the central and eastern US would have Haneda service as the West Coast gateways already have flights at LAX and SFO. For reference at the time of DL’s 2010 application they proposed 298 seat A330 service.

If DOT wants to stick to its above 2 arguments, then UA should come back with its EWR proposal. Otherwise I am sure the carrier would be happy to do a SFO or GUM to Haneda flight.
Hawaiian Air surely will also seek the slot, as it has repeatedly asked for a 2nd daily HNL-HND run.
I'm not sure what AA would do, but it to date has had enough trouble trying to keep its JFK-HND alive to maybe worry about a 2nd route.
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jetlanta
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Well it will be interesting of the DOT allows the move, as they made a pretty good case against awarding the service to Seattle to begin with.

Seattle (along with Detroit) were the smallest local markets in the route case, and that Delta would be relying heavily on its partner Alaska for connecting traffic flow – something it does not have full pricing or marketing control over. Also the DOT went out of its way to ensure the central and eastern US would have Haneda service as the West Coast gateways already have flights at LAX and SFO. For reference at the time of DL’s 2010 application they proposed 298 seat A330 service.

If DOT wants to stick to its above 2 arguments, then UA should come back with its EWR proposal. Otherwise I am sure the carrier would be happy to do a SFO or GUM to Haneda flight.
Hawaiian Air surely will also seek the slot, as it has repeatedly asked for a 2nd daily HNL-HND run.
I'm not sure what AA would do, but it to date has had enough trouble trying to keep its JFK-HND alive to maybe worry about a 2nd route.

Given how bad HND has performed in general for each of these carriers, at least to start, I am skeptical that any of them (including UA) are going to be keen to start a totally new O&D market. And, while HA no doubt wants HNL#2, it would be hard for the DOT to pass up new service to SEA in exchange for that. I also struggle with the idea that DOT would turn down SEA for GUM.
 
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:23 pm

I hope the government grows a spine and says absolutely no way. If you don't want to fly DTW-HND, time to give the slot back. From there it goes back up for grabs.
 
LAXSTEW
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:34 pm

anyone know how LAX-HND has been performing?
 
DTWHKG
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:39 pm

Quoting LAXSTEW (Reply 14):
anyone know how LAX-HND has been performing?

Doesn't seem good to me. The price is routinely much lower than ANA's LAX-HND flight, as well as other LAX-NRT flights.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:28 am

This is not a surprise. DL always wanted SEA-HND and it was the top request that they made. It was the DOT that forced them into DTW and LAX which were not as preferable.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 7):

SEA-HND wouldn't be totally O&D. DL is partnered with AS to feed the DL international flights. I think DL has plenty of potential here. I would imagine the flights were start as 767-300ER's.

I agree and disagree. The HND slot requirements make the arrival and departure times less than idea. The earliest arrival that DL could get into SEA would be about 6pm. With a 90 minute minimum connection, that allows most of the west coast including the small Pacific Northwest markets, but the connections available are very different from what DTW allows. The DTW arrival and departure are well timed for connections.

However, one big factor is that a 763ER can easily do SEA-HND which would really help as it is a smaller airplane.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Well it will be interesting of the DOT allows the move, as they made a pretty good case against awarding the service to Seattle to begin with.

The DOT and airlines thought that HND would be far more successful that it is proving to be. The arrival and departure window into HND has killed reasonable connections and public transportation is not very good to HND in the night. Despite the distance, NRT is still sometimes easier to reach since the US flights leave at reasonable late afternoon/early evening.

I think the DOT might realize that they were a bit optimistic in the potential for the HND slots. HNL has been the only successful market. SFO, LAX, JFK, and DTW have all struggled. Destinations like GUM, HNL and maybe SEA might work out better. The DOT wants to see full airplanes and maximum usage of slots and not empty airplanes, or seasonal, less than daily, or suspended routes.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:44 am

really?

I wish the DOT would just say no you are getting rediculous..........and let someone else use it

If Delta gets the permission i still think this has no chance of long term survival. HND was overrated lets be honest here. The airlines thought it was this rare opportunity and who is making a killing now? With no feed on the HND end i see SEA ending poorly as well unless they have some master plan to then cancel LAX flight and route all the traffic thru SEA?


Quoting DTWHKG (Reply 15):
Quoting LAXSTEW (Reply 14):
anyone know how LAX-HND has been performing?

Doesn't seem good to me. The price is routinely much lower than ANA's LAX-HND flight, as well as other LAX-NRT flights.

Just a random theory Is there any crazy chance that delta is trying to get the SEA authority and then leave LAX behind and use the AS feed into SEA as a single west coast access point to HND? Just a theory but i am sure they wouldnt approve a LAX to SEA move since its to a smaller already serviced west coast city so they might think they have a chance to move DTW first then cancel LAX? They would have the AS feed at SEA just a thought and i bet they could push UA off of NRT service
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 2):
Would DL have two flights a day SEA-HND and SEA-NRT? Or would HND replace NRT?

That would be interesting to see four daily SEA-Tokyo flights - maybe five if the AA/JL venture adds SEA-NRT.

SEA-NRT isn't going anywhere, DL is keeping it right where it is.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
So that would make:

UA SEA-NRT
NH SEA-NRT
DL SEA-NRT
DL SEA-HND
DL-SEA-KIX

As far as SEA to Japan goes. Hmm, that's a lot of capacity.   

There's probably a fair amount of conventional wisdom that goes into this. As someone else mentioned in here, that UA/NH might do away with the UAs SEA-NRT flight and what I think that DL might downguage the the NRT to a 76ER, I think their will be a fair amount of capacity being squeezed. DL submitted it's request as is, and then will probably negotiate it down when its all said and done. Once we have enough of the 76Ts in circulation

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
I know Detroit is a "Delta hub", but as far as O&D traffic to/from Asia, Seattle blows Detroit away... SEA can self-sustain, DL won't have to rely on connecting passengers

Probably because SEA is just a more convenient place for people to travel in to than LAX or SFO. Those places are zoos compared to SEA.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:00 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 18):
really?

I wish the DOT would just say no you are getting rediculous..........and let someone else use it

What's the harm in asking? The DOT will either say "no, it's getting ridiculous" or "yes." I don't see the big outrage here...

And as others have pointed out, I think most of the cities picked just aren't working (probably due to the poor slot times.) Additionally, it's not as if DL is trying any trickery, they have DTW-HND a shot, it's not too good, so they are asking to switch it over to SEA-HND, their first choice
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Bobloblaw
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 2):
Would DL have two flights a day SEA-HND and SEA-NRT? Or would HND replace NRT?

They would lose all the beyond NRT traffic if they dropped NRT

[Edited 2012-07-30 18:21:13 by srbmod]
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:11 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
I predict United will quickly exit the SEA-NRT market

I realize that's a popular meme on a.net, but I wonder, is there a 5th freedom flight beyond NRT that UA would be willing to give up in exchange for losing a U.S.-originating flight number into NRT? It'd also be interesting to see what UA's forward bookings look like now that the NH flight has started.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 19):
DL might downguage the the NRT to a 76ER, I think their will be a fair amount of capacity being squeezed.

That prompted me to remember that UA will also have plenty of 2-class 763s coming into the fleet as soon as the conversions are done on the 14 domestic models. UA dropping SEA-NRT might not be the sure thing people are making it out to be, even with an HND flight added to the mix. But let's see if the DOT allows DL to swap the flight to SEA first.
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commavia
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 19):
DL might downguage the the NRT to a 76ER, I think their will be a fair amount of capacity being squeezed. DL submitted it's request as is, and then will probably negotiate it down when its all said and done. Once we have enough of the 76Ts in circulation

  

I suspect that is precisely what would happen. 2x daily 767 would still be capacity overkill for the overall SEA-TYO market, but it would certainly be better than 1 or both of those flights being A330s.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 23):
but I wonder, is there a 5th freedom flight beyond NRT that UA would be willing to give up in exchange for losing a U.S.-originating flight number into NRT?

Not sure what the implication is that you're trying to make. United discontinuing a SEA-NRT flight would in no way precipitate United ending any 5th freedom beyond-NRT flying. The two are wholly unconnected - there is no requirement for any U.S. carrier to operate 5th freedom, beyond-NRT flights solely as continuations of incoming U.S.-NRT flights.
 
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:20 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 24):
Not sure what the implication is that you're trying to make.

To fly NRT-ICN, for example, UA requires an inbound flight number from the U.S. to fly the route on a 5th freedom basis. I was wondering if is there a flight currently being flown beyond NRT that UA would be willing to give up (assuming they're using all of their 5th freedom rights), to compensate for losing the SEA-NRT flight number to send beyond NRT.
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roseflyer
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:25 am

I really am not surprised to see DL wanting to end DTW-HND. They are using the A332 on the route, which makes it one of the longest A330 routes in the world. The loads are low enough that it doesn't really matter that DL has to take weight restrictions on the DTW-HND leg since the A330 is not ideal for operating a 13+ hour route. DL has basically tried everything that they can to make the route work.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 18):
really?

I wish the DOT would just say no you are getting rediculous..........and let someone else use it

If Delta gets the permission i still think this has no chance of long term survival. HND was overrated lets be honest here. The airlines thought it was this rare opportunity and who is making a killing now? With no feed on the HND end i see SEA ending poorly as well unless they have some master plan to then cancel LAX flight and route all the traffic thru SEA?

Actually that would not surprise me. DL said in their filing that SEA-HND was their preferred route. LAX and DTW were decided by the DOT from DL's application when DL applied for 4 different slots.

DL's international network is stronger out of SEA than LAX. LAX has virtually no feed. The only feed it has is SFO, LAS, PHX and the redeye routes to the east coast. With SEA being slightly over 1 hour less of flying time from Japan, it opens up more connecting opportunities than LAX. A 6pm arrival would connect to almost every airport AS serves west of the Rockies. SEA also doesn't have the competition that LAX has with 7 airlines operating LAX-NRT and NH on HND-LAX.

[Edited 2012-07-30 18:36:18]

[Edited 2012-07-30 18:49:45]
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commavia
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:29 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
To fly NRT-ICN, for example, UA requires an inbound flight number from the U.S. to fly the route on a 5th freedom basis.

False. There is no such requirement.

Assuming they could get the slots, United can schedule a flight departing NRT at 0900 to ICN with not a single inbound connecting passenger (indeed, over a decade ago, they actually did have a 0900 originator to ICN from NRT). Again - there is no stipulation that any U.S. carrier's beyond-NRT flight must be tied to an inbound U.S.-NRT flight, or vice versa.

Thus, cancelling SEA-NRT requires United to discontinue only 1 flight, not 2.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:43 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 24):
False. There is no such requirement.

Interesting. That's not how we understood the 1998 bilateral which NateDAL pulled and posted beginning in Reply #12 in this thread six years ago: Bermuda II Accord - F.O.I.A. Request? (by AeroWesty Mar 7 2006 in Civil Aviation)

But I don't want to make this about United, I was just musing aloud regarding the sure thing everyone believes to be the case, that the UA flight would be the first casualty in the SEA-NRT market.
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mel
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:54 am

daytime USA-Haneda-USA slots can't come soon enough. It's no surprise that many of these flights appear to not be doing well financially given the horrible night ops restrictions, poor connection opportunities, and lack of public transit options @ HND overnight.
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jetjack74
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:13 am

Quoting MEL (Reply 26):
daytime USA-Haneda-USA slots can't come soon enough. It's no surprise that many of these flights appear to not be doing well financially given the horrible night ops restrictions, poor connection opportunities, and lack of public transit options @ HND overnight.

Thats the idea. Give the US carriers access to HND when nobody wants to fly in or out of HND, thereby not interrupting Japan's flag-carrying airlines. NH and JL already have a disadvantage to US carriers, flying across the Pacific, so why would they want to give US carriers anymore of an advantage?
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wedgetail737
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:51 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 25):
But I don't want to make this about United, I was just musing aloud regarding the sure thing everyone believes to be the case, that the UA flight would be the first casualty in the SEA-NRT market.

It's possible that all three airlines serving SEA-NRT may coexist. A lot of the speculations that UA may relinquish the SEA-NRT market to NH is that UA's overall SEA service had been diminishing for last decade or so. UA will be vacating the N-gates over the next year or so. Does the A-Concourse have a 777-capable gate? Given the choice between UA and NH, NH has a much better product.

I still maintain that DL may be able to support both HND and NRT service due to their partnership with AS, which has a high connection potential.

Quoting commavia (Reply 24):
Thus, cancelling SEA-NRT requires United to discontinue only 1 flight, not 2.

In terms of quantity of flights, it's almost trivial. A lot of the reason why there is such a high number of UA flights at SEA is because of the NRT service. However, it wouldn't be huge loss since NH is a partner. Connections would be easy when UA moves over to the A-Concourse.

The economy here in the SEA area is improving. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Edited 2012-07-30 20:54:29]
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:05 am

The only thing to remember here is that DEN-NRT is coming online soon. This has to reduce SEA demand somewhat. IIRC the SEA-NRT flight is a one stop and continues somewhere
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:11 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 29):
The only thing to remember here is that DEN-NRT is coming online soon.

Oh right! I'd forgotten all about DEN-NRT. That answers some of my questions regarding beyond flights. Thanks for the reminder.
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jetjack74
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:36 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta Airlines today formally asked the DOT for permission to move its 7 weekly Detroit-Haneda slots to Seattle.

Delta states that market conditions based on actual operating experience show that the Detroit-Haneda route is under performing, and the carrier seeks the flexibility to move the slots to the West Coast.

DL believes a SEA-Haneda service would be both more attractive for the consumer, and be a better fit for the carrier.


So is this printed anywhere?
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steex
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:38 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 24):
False. There is no such requirement.

Assuming they could get the slots, United can schedule a flight departing NRT at 0900 to ICN with not a single inbound connecting passenger (indeed, over a decade ago, they actually did have a 0900 originator to ICN from NRT). Again - there is no stipulation that any U.S. carrier's beyond-NRT flight must be tied to an inbound U.S.-NRT flight, or vice versa.

Could you provide documentation of this? I've always understood a fifth freedom route to require a flight number originating in the USA (which technically is true, otherwise it would be a standalone seventh freedom route). I recall as a specific example that this is why DL 97 operates GUM-NRT-ROR even though there is absolutely no marketing benefit to a 3,082nm one-stop flight on a route that has 707nm non-stops. Instead, it was a matter of requiring a USA-origin for the ROR flight and GUM makes sense given that GUM-NRT and NRT-ROR are both intended to cater primarily to O&D pax.

Could the NRT-SEL flights you recall have been part of the archaic system that resulted in many NRT fifth freedom flights having 12+ hour layovers? That was a requirement for some destinations that caused very inefficient aircraft flow, and indeed meant some single number flights had overnight connections. What seemed like a morning originator to SEL may have actually been an overnight continuation from the previous evening's arrival that, as a result, had virtually no continuing pax.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:59 am

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 31):
So is this printed anywhere?

Yes. See docket

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
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strfyr51
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:06 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):

I KNEW it wasn't going to take Delta long to figure out they cound feed a west coast flight to Asia from ALL over the counrty but you can only feed an East coast flight from the East ern United States!!, Only a Fool is going to fly from Los Angeles to Detroit only to fly to Tokyo when they could easily fly from LAX-SEA , Or deeper still?? LAX- Direct !! Delta has given hemselves 3 hours of extra time and opportunity to get passengers To SeaTac for that flight. And I Bet the performance Will Improve markedly!
 
steex
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:15 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 34):
I KNEW it wasn't going to take Delta long to figure out they cound feed a west coast flight to Asia from ALL over the counrty but you can only feed an East coast flight from the East ern United States!!

Well, if you're correct, then Delta had it right all along! HND-SEA was their first choice on the application, but DOT chose to award them LAX and DTW.

Granted, none of the three mainland-HND routes has been very successful, but I still can't help wondering if results would've been better with DL on JFK-HND and AA on LAX-HND instead of other way around. I know DL didn't apply for that and DOT couldn't just start freelancing the applications, but it seems like it would've played into each airline's natural strengths much better.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:31 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 31):
So is this printed anywhere?

Yes. See docket

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
OST-2010-0018

Well, I'm looking at it, and all I see is the docket reference from February of 2010 June 2011. Just sayin'
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LAXintl
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:10 am

Here is the summary ---


2010 US-Tokyo (Haneda) Combination Services Allocation Proceeding

OST-2010-0018

July 30, 2012

Motion of Delta Air Lines

Delta requests permission to move its Detroit-Haneda slots to the Seattle-Haneda route. These slots were awarded by Order 2010-7-2, and are currently limited to service at Detroit. Delta moves the Department to amend the Order to allow Delta flexibility to operate from the Seattle gateway.

The marketplace has indicated that Delta%u2019s Detroit-Haneda slots would be better utilized at Seattle. Based on its actual operating experience, Delta has found that Eastern US-Haneda service is under performing relative to the West Coast-Haneda service. Seattle%u2019s West Coast location also allows for a more attractive and consumer friendly schedule that is a better fit with the Haneda operating window. Delta%u2019s network at Seattle, together with its codeshare partner, Alaska Airlines, provides convenient and non-circuitous connections to scores of US cities.

Counsel: Delta, Sascha Van der Bellen, 202-842-4184
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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RWA380
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:06 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Is the SEA-Haneda market big enough to support the flight by O&D alone (or at least a vast portion of the flight)? DL doesn't have a whole lot of feed going into SEA,

Yes DL connects several gateway cities to SEA like ATL, JFK, SLC and then AS brings a huge amount of flights from all over the country to SEA. If the DL times are like BR's times out of SEA, most all DL and AS flights into SEA will connect to the HND flight.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 12):
I hope the government grows a spine and says absolutely no way. If you don't want to fly DTW-HND, time to give the slot back. From there it goes back up for grabs.

My question is, if the route went back into the pool and airlines requested it, would those airlines be able to request from and city they wish to? If yes, then I think DL should be able to request the reallocation. Would this allow DL to wait a certain time period before having to start this new route?
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
jcwr56
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:03 pm

While I can understand DL's requesting to move, will the DOT really want to start swapping cities out as an after the fact when awarding a route to a carrier just because a carrier failed to do their due diligence?

So at a future point in time lets see how many carriers will apply for a route just so they can come back later and say, oh, the market isn't there but we have another "hub" city we can operate from.

The DOT needs to start sticking to their guns and say, you operate it from the awarded city or lose the route and it goes back out to bid for everyone to apply for.
 
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 38):
My question is, if the route went back into the pool and airlines requested it, would those airlines be able to request from and city they wish to? If yes, then I think DL should be able to request the reallocation. Would this allow DL to wait a certain time period before having to start this new route?

Yes, they should IMO. DL was awarded the route from a specific city. Just as a new bid would allow a carrier to operate it from their specific city. Start the whole process over and let the DOT decide if DL is worthy of a 2nd chance.

Why anyone in the DOT hasn't crafted wording that states, if a carrier decides to move an awarded city, the airline forfeits the route and a new bid takes place. This might keep airlines alittle more honest when applying.
 
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:30 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 23):
DL has basically tried everything that they can to make the route work.

What was the original idea here?

That Detroit Tokyo is some huge market?

That connectors really care about the hour or so HND saves you versus NRT?

Both of these are not realistic ideas... DTW-HND does not make sense to begin with.
 
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:32 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 40):
Why anyone in the DOT hasn't crafted wording that states, if a carrier decides to move an awarded city, the airline forfeits the route and a new bid takes place. This might keep airlines alittle more honest when applying

I hadn't even thought of it like that, but now you said it, it seems so simple, use the award as directed, or let the new rebid begin, I do think a small amount of positive consideration should go to DL (or whatever carrier) in a rebid situation, to what extent? I'm not sure.
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:33 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 39):
While I can understand DL's requesting to move, will the DOT really want to start swapping cities out as an after the fact when awarding a route to a carrier just because a carrier failed to do their due diligence?

In fairness, DL originally requested SEA-HND as their first choice. Instead, the DOT awarded them their backup choices (LAX, DTW). I'm usually one of the first to call DL out for squatting frequencies and trying to change things up after the fact, but this is one case where I don't think you can say they didn't do their due dilligence.
 
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:01 pm

I have some familiarity with AA's struggling HND-JFK route, so maybe this helps inform the discussion.

The ability to be an hour closer at HND is delightful and a motivating factor in thinking to choose it as the destination, particularly for high $$ biz travelers. An hour is a big deal.

However, an hour at a HORRIBLE time of day for transportation to and from the airport, not to mention wacky arrival times in Tokyo and New York, really hamper the ability to use that flight.

Moreover, while we talk about a lack of onward AIRLINE connections, we are missing something else very important: GROUND connections. Right now, someone going to northeast Japan from NY will fly to Tokyo and take a 1.5 hour Shinkansen and vice-versa. If the flight is timed so that the last Shinkansen has left, taxis are nowhere to be seen, and there is spotty subway service around the airport (and visa versa on the return) who the heck is going to use this thing?

It's like having a flight arrive at JFK where the only destination you can go to is Manhattan. Not Long Island, not upstate, not one of the boroughs, not New Jersey: Manhattan.

So in my humble opinion, the major limitation on the JFK-HND route, at least, is the truly sucky arrival and departure times.

Do the other slots (e.g. DTW-HND) have this issue as well?
 
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
I'm sure UA would like to get a SFO-HND service going, and that would seem to be the most logical place to move that flight



For this one UA should definitely apply to have the rights reallocated to them so they could launch SFO-HND.
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LAXintl
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:46 pm

Quoting rwsea (Reply 43):
the DOT awarded them their backup choices

DTW was not their "backup" choice.

Delta brazenly applied for all 4 available Haneda frequencies - from, DTW, HNL, LAX, and SEA.

While DL attempted to prioritize their city preferences, the DOT reviewed all the applications, and opted to award Delta the DTW and LAX segments. The DOT in their decision explained how they managed the process.

In opting against Seattle, as I posted in reply 10, the DOT found;
o The market was small
o Delta had small foot print at SEA
o DL would be too reliant on AS for feed which it could not control
o West Coast already was going to have Haneda service at SFO and LAX, and DOT wanted to spread the wealth so to speak and provide Central and Eastern US with access also.
o DL chose to use the smallest equipment (A330 vs 744 on other 3 markets)



Additionally for Delta we pretty much know even LAX-HND has not turned out roses for Delta. The market has seen 6-month start up delay, timing changes, equipment downgauge, and months of dormancy. All within 24-month of the original start up date.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
peanuts
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
DL believes a SEA-Haneda service would be both more attractive for the consumer, and be a better fit for the carrier.

Correct. That's why SEA was their first choice. Shocker...

Quoting STT757 (Reply 45):
For this one UA should definitely apply to have the rights reallocated to them so they could launch SFO-HND.

Basically what you are saying: UA deserves to get their first choice reallocated to them if DL can't make it work with their back up selections...  

I think a reasonable DOT will look at it from all angles, also taking into account that both AA and DL have stuck it out this far with HND and have demonstrated commitment to the route. This is not 3rd grade politics.
DOT can still deny the request and DL could just struggle on with it until other opportunities of improvement present themselves (e.g. better slots).

We'll see.


Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 40):
This might keep airlines alittle more honest when applying.

More honest? DL wanted SEA to begin with.
This company is merely just attempting to improve a situation. Now a company gets slapped around a.net for doing just that? Beats me...
 
jcwr56
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 47):
More honest? DL wanted SEA to begin with.
This company is merely just attempting to improve a situation. Now a company gets slapped around a.net for doing just that? Beats me...

Well, they could have denied accepting the route on the grounds it wasn't their first choice. but no, they took it knowing on the long term it wasn't going to make. So now after X amount of time they want a 2nd chance to make it work. (it doesn't matter SEA was their first choice, they accepted/agreed to operate from DTW)

So odds are you'll see AA, UA and HA all file objections and if they were smart petition the DOT for a rebid.

I will admit the DOT failed at this one but in the end, the airline (in this case DL) made the business decision to take the route.
 
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RE: Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA

Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 47):
Basically what you are saying: UA deserves to get their first choice reallocated to them if DL can't make it work with their back up selections...

I think that. DL picked the route they thought would win the application not the route they actually wanted.

Since UA was denied the application based on that, I think UA deserves a shot at this one.
It is what it is...