AT
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Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:06 pm

Flying in and out of La Guardia recently, I was stunned to see the number of regional jets swarming the tarmac.
Given the saturation of the terminals and the delays at LGA, are regional jets really an optimal use of the airport?

Obviously the airlines are using them because it is profitable or makes sense for certain routes; but from an airport perspective, do regional jets contribute to the inefficiency of the airport?

And if so, has the Port Authority considered a model of inverting the fee structure whereby the landing fees are inversely, rather than positively related to the weight/size of the aircraft? That would provide an incentive for airlines to use larger than smaller aircraft, but without making it mandatory, so airlines can still have the choice of using any aircraft they wish.

Obviously this might be too simplistic a model as for some routes only a Regional Jet is appropriate, and for others, airlines may prefer to have multiple frequencies on smaller aircraft to serve business travelers rather than a single flight with more capacity.

What are people's thoughts?

And on a tangential note, I have to say I am very impressed with the modernization of the Delta terminal at LGA (the actual terminal, not the portion of the neighboring USAirways terminal they are using). The IPAD stations in particular are great.
 
stlgph
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:10 pm

A plane is a plane -- whether or not it seats 50 people or 100 people, it takes up space, needs a departure slot, an arrival slot, etc.

Delta's move to replace 50 seaters with 70 and 100 seats is nice ... but when you think about it ... adding the estimated 4 million people per year to the airport - it's going to be rather crowded. Longer wait for security, taxi's, and to stand in line for the crummy concession offerings. Joy.
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RL757PVD
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:18 pm

Last year those Regional Jets were Sabb 340's and DH8's so its a step in the right direction at least...
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jfklganyc
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:25 pm

I think the number of RJs has actually dropped drastically over that last few years.

I do not consider teh E Jets RJs...as they are not the problem, but the solution.

RJs of 50 seats or less have been a thorn in LGAs side. As US airlines, particularly US Airways shrunk post 9/11, they decided to slot squat with cheap, outsourced RJs.

This was and is an inefficient use of slots.

What this does for NYC and the PANYNJ is lower the economic activity from the airport. If an airport has 1000 slots per day and 50% are being used by small aircraft vs larger aircraft there are less people moving through the airport: less people arriving and getting into taxis, staying at hotels, going to a Bway show, conducting business.

It got so bad in 2004 that there was a push to limit aircraft with less than 70 seats...but it went nowhere.

Since then, US has shut down most of its LGA operation...and that helps. DL is using the slots a bit more efficiently.

AA has upguaged a good chunk of its Eagle flying from 135/140/145 to CRJ700s. That helps

B6 has expanded to 16 slots on mainline aircraft...that helps

AirTran and WN combined now give LGA another large operator with all mainline ops ...that helps.

UA and AA are using fewer 757s and more 738s and 320s...that doesn't help, but it keeps it mainline.
 
AT
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Delta's move to replace 50 seaters with 70 and 100 seats is nice ... but when you think about it ... adding the estimated 4 million people per year to the airport - it's going to be rather crowded. Longer wait for security, taxi's, and to stand in line for the crummy concession offerings. Joy.

True. But that's if you're replacing one 50 seater with one 70 or 100 seater. But what if you are replacing three 50 seater flights with 2 75 seater flights? Still carry the same number of passengers, but now you need gate space and departure slots for one less aircraft.
 
toltommy
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:33 pm

Regional jets allow the carriers to serve markets that could not support mainline aircraft. The smaller aircraft allow airlines to meet customer demand for service from LGA to those cities.
 
stlgph
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting at (Reply 4):
True. But that's if you're replacing one 50 seater with one 70 or 100 seater. But what if you are replacing three 50 seater flights with 2 75 seater flights? Still carry the same number of passengers, but now you need gate space and departure slots for one less aircraft.

you think an airline like Delta is going to consolidate 3 50 seat flights into 2 and give up a slot?

oh boy...

Quoting toltommy (Reply 5):

Regional jets allow the carriers to serve markets that could not support mainline aircraft. The smaller aircraft allow airlines to meet customer demand for service from LGA to those cities.

and that happens everywhere. not every city has to have nonstop service to New York's Laguardia Airport.
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spiritair97
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 3):

I don't think US shutting down most of their LGA ops made that big a difference. All those DH8s and SF34s are now just CR2s and E145s.

Also, the number of RJs has dropped drastically in the last few years, but it is still enough to cause problems.

I was at CHS last week waiting for my mothers WN flight to come in and I heard them make an announcment that DL6066 from LGA had left the gate but was not in the air yet. That was at 5:45pm. At 6:45pm, they started letting people going to LGA get on the half-full DL DC-9 going to ATL, and connect them to LGA. At 7:15, they finally made an announcment to the remaining six passengers going to LGA that their plane was in the air. The taxiway congestion caused the plane to depart so lte that the connection from ATL that they put people on beat the ERJ-145 from CHS but 25 minutes! Obviously there is still a big problem with overcrowding at LGA.

What would help the overcrowding would be the addition of another taxiway, but there is no room for one, because there are too many terminals. I've been saying it for years, and ll this just proves it to be true: LaGuardia is too big for its size. There are too many terminals and too many planes for an airport that size.
 
AT
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 7):
What would help the overcrowding would be the addition of another taxiway, but there is no room for one, because there are too many terminals. I've been saying it for years, and ll this just proves it to be true: LaGuardia is too big for its size. There are too many terminals and too many planes for an airport that size.

Yes I completely agree. That's what prompted my original question though. Given that it's too crowded, is reducing the number of aircraft via encouraging use of bigger rather than smaller aircraft viable, and what is the best way to do it?
 
spiritair97
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting at (Reply 8):

That probabaly is the best solution, but where would they get the bigger aircraft? The larger aircraft are being put on routes that suit them more and require a larger aircraft. I suspect that, like others have said, as we see the 50-seaters dwindle away, we'll see more 70-seaters come into service at LGA. It's just a matter of waiting it out. I
 
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Acey559
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:10 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 3):
I do not consider teh E Jets RJs...as they are not the problem, but the solution.

Yet they're still flown by crews making as low as $23/hour.... I'd call THAT a problem. But that's for a different discussion entirely.
 
stlgph
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 9):

You won't see less slots anytime soon.

The more planes that touch the ground, the more revenue for the government.
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lhcvg
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:20 pm

As was mentioned, incentivizing carriers to swap RJs for large RJs (CR7s, E-Jets, Q400s, etc.) and mainline would help a bit, but previous efforts have gone nowhere. Obviously some markets will never support that, but surely a majority of markets could be shuffled to accomodate such a move. It does seem a bit excessive to fly 7x 50 seaters, say, when you could fly 5 70 seaters for the same pax count and only lose a few hours of frequency options (say 5 total between the two lost flights). I don't really see how say 6-8 flights is that much more convenient that 3-5 using larger planes to make up for lost capacity if needed -- for most markets.

But all told, the biggest problem IMHO is slot squatting, like the old US model of 20x props and RJs to PHL -- utterly ridiculous by any measure. I will grant that my above argument may not go far given the demand for certain markets, but certainly there can be some incentive for upgauging routes. Perhaps a mandated average percentage of flights on 70+ seat (stock, so you'd allow for UAX 170s for instance) or better planes, or else revoke slots?
 
HPRamper
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:41 pm

It's not inefficient at all. LGA is by and large a business-oriented airport. Business travelers value frequency a hell of a lot more than how big the plane is, and there would be nothing more inefficient than flying mainline aircraft on the frequencies that those business pax desire. They would be flying half empty and could not be used on routes where density is more important than frequency.

DCA is also another airport where this is the case, although with a semi-hub there, and with more perimeter exemptions, gauge I believe is larger here than at LGA.

If the airlines had an infinite number of aircraft to use without worrying about how their use on route X will be a hindrance to the rest of the route structure, and if they had the cash to pay mainline pilots to fly all those frequencies, maybe it would be less of an issue.

Edit: I'm not referring to any specific high-frequency shuttle-type routes, just LGA as a whole.

[Edited 2012-07-31 09:49:28]
 
spacecadet
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 13):
It's not inefficient at all. LGA is by and large a business-oriented airport. Business travelers value frequency a hell of a lot more than how big the plane is, and there would be nothing more inefficient than flying mainline aircraft on the frequencies that those business pax desire. They would be flying half empty and could not be used on routes where density is more important than frequency.

Then perhaps the solution is to reduce the number of available slots.

Look, airline operations at a crowded airport are rarely about what anyone "desires". It's about the best use of limited resources. It's about compromise.

The question is whether RJ's are the best use of the limited resource that is LGA's ground and air space. For business passengers, they may be. But business passengers don't really have a vote, and they're not the only people affected. An RJ that takes up airspace around LGA affects flights coming out of EWR and JFK too, and those flights might be "more important" in that they generate more revenue for the airline and by extension the port authority as well as the city, state and the FAA.

In an ideal world, everyone would be able to fly whatever airplane they wanted at any time of day from anywhere. Obviously, we all have to make choices, and airlines and airport authorities have to make them as well.

The main reason for the prevalence of RJ's to begin with is that airlines were afraid of losing their slots if they didn't keep them filled, and as you say, they couldn't fill up larger planes. So maybe the airlines just don't really need all those slots.
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spiritair97
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 13):
DCA is also another airport where this is the case, although with a semi-hub there, and with more perimeter exemptions, gauge I believe is larger here than at LGA.

But again, DCA has more space to put planes on the ground. DCA has more holding bays, or areas that can be improvised as holding bays, whereas LGA, as far as I know, has none (Or maybe one that I don't know of).
 
andrew50
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:49 pm

Hard to believe any U.S. airport could have more regional jets than IAH!
 
xdlx
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:03 am

When did you notice?
 
wjcandee
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:09 am

Quoting at (Reply 8):
Given that it's too crowded, is reducing the number of aircraft via encouraging use of bigger rather than smaller aircraft viable, and what is the best way to do it?

One reason for all the RJs is that Congress has passed a variety of legislation over the last decade in response to littler cities that want LGA service. If there's a slot that can only be used to one of these cities, the airlines are going to fill it with a plane that is suitably-sized.
 
tharanga
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:56 am

If there is a problem here, the answer is simple: fewer slots.

The problem would be: more movements than the airport and airspace can handle under common weather conditions.

if that is the problem, then the cleanest answer (besides re-organising the airspace and nextgen ATC) is to simply reduce the number of slots. The airlines can then figure out the most efficient way to use that number of slots.
 
texan
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:14 am

Quoting at (Thread starter):
And if so, has the Port Authority considered a model of inverting the fee structure whereby the landing fees are inversely, rather than positively related to the weight/size of the aircraft? That would provide an incentive for airlines to use larger than smaller aircraft, but without making it mandatory, so airlines can still have the choice of using any aircraft they wish.

They might have considered it but smartly did not implement the consideration. Such plans are unjustly discriminatory, would violate the airport's Grant Assurances and would run counter to case law on the issue.

Quoting at (Reply 8):
Yes I completely agree. That's what prompted my original question though. Given that it's too crowded, is reducing the number of aircraft via encouraging use of bigger rather than smaller aircraft viable, and what is the best way to do it?

It depends on your goal. If your goal is to reduce the amount of aircraft traffic, then the solution is to reduce the number of slots. If your goal is to free up airspace, then the best solution is for the FAA to modernise the airspace in the Northeast--something the FAA attempted to do that was later killed by other interests. If your goal is to increase the size of the aircraft using LGA, then the Port Authority should consider offering incentives for the use of mainline aircraft to destinations.

Quoting at (Reply 4):
True. But that's if you're replacing one 50 seater with one 70 or 100 seater. But what if you are replacing three 50 seater flights with 2 75 seater flights? Still carry the same number of passengers, but now you need gate space and departure slots for one less aircraft.

Slots are too valuable to give up for no return. AA tried that tactic a few years ago, said they were "retiring" a bunch of slots that served no more purpose. The FAA didn't allow it. Slots operate under a "use it or lose it" system. The airline either paid money to get the slots or could receive money by selling the slots to another operator. That is why you see airlines operating way too many flights to destinations that don't really need the service (US's 18 or however many daily flights LGA-PHL as an example) simply as 'slot holders.'

But if the FAA attempted to remove slots, you would hear a couple of things: 1) the angry screams of airlines; 2) the running of lobbyists to Congress to get the politicians to intervene; and 3) the delighted cheers of the lawyers who would be litigating this case and its appeals in court for years at a good hourly rate.

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r2rho
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:41 am

There can be many ways to solve this, not allowing more flights to be scheduled than the number of ops can handle would be a good start. You can act on pricing to encourage larger aircraft. NextGen ATC in the NY area would help, but it has to be accompanied by slot pricing/restriction measures, otherwise the new capacity will simply serve to add even more RJ's. And to be truly effective, all inititatives should be coordinated at a NY-wide level (+EWR and JFK).

No airline dares to take the first step because any slots they give up to make operations more efficient would simply be taken by a competitor. Therefore authorities must come in and do their job - regulate - in an equal way for all involved.
 
BC77008
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:24 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):

Delta's move to replace 50 seaters with 70 and 100 seats is nice ... but when you think about it ... adding the estimated 4 million people per year to the airport - it's going to be rather crowded. Longer wait for security, taxi's, and to stand in line for the crummy concession offerings. Joy.

I agree, I love New York, but LaGuardia is a piece of filthy garbage. The person that designed it must have been on crack, hence we have New York-LaGarbage airport.
"He waited his whole damn life to take that flight. And as the plane crashed down he thought 'Well isn't this nice...'"
 
lhcvg
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:40 pm

Food for thought: is this more due to a policy/enforecment failure on the airport end to regulate things (however that comes about), or of the numerous small markets that clamor for service to NYC that can only fill 50 seaters at best? FWIW I'm not bashing small markets wanting air service, but rather which side is really to blame. For instance, I don't necessarily blame the airline if they have come to agreement with Small Town X to provide service to LGA on ERJs (multiply that by every small market that wants service), but OTOH when you have 20x LGA-PHL on small planes that seems like a failure on the regulatory end to me. LGA-ORD has proven able to sustain roughly 30x daily on weekdays, all on E-Jets or better, so there is demonstrable heavy demand and good utilization (not relying on 50 seaters), but it strains credulity to believe that there is any rational explanation on US's part for why they need to fly to PHL 20x (I know this varies but it's been around there recently) if they can only manage it on tiny planes.
 
stlgph
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:10 pm

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 22):
I agree, I love New York, but LaGuardia is a piece of filthy garbage. The person that designed it must have been on crack, hence we have New York-LaGarbage airport.

Well back in the day, it served its purpose. It was hastily built when then Mayor LaGuardia had to fly into Newark and thought it was total b.s. he couldn't fly into New York City itself. The took a tiny beach airport and took as much space as they could get and voila -- we have LaGuardia Airport. The airport was built for the 1930's, not for the 21st century.

Today it remains a nightmare to get stuck and delayed in. Concessions basically suck - and if a ton of flights get cancelled and you're at the airport - god bless you if you can get a taxi, on a bus, or even if you call a car service, good luck on them finding you. When all the flights got cancelled the night of the 18th, I waited for the rain to stop and then started walking down the street. Much better results.
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JBAirwaysFan
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:16 pm

Reducing the number of slots isn't so easy either. There is a never-ending argument as to who is the true owner of the slots. If the DOT mandates a reduction in slots at LGA the airlines will have a fit seeing as they pay for those slots. Everyone in the NY area that has some connection to LGA claims ownership of the slot (DOT, PANYNJ, and the airlines themselves). This will result in never-ending court battles and probably no resolution whatsoever.

Also, restricting the type of aircraft used at a certain airport has its own controversies. The airport could be deemed discriminatory and this could end up in court as well. In fact, I think the situation is very complex and while these ideas seem good in theory, there is much more to it.
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apodino
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:33 pm

Some people call the LGA-PHL flights on US slot holders, but that flight is always consistently full with 50 passengers, and from what I have seen, these aren't customers who are looking for cheap flights either, these customers actually pay good money for what ever reason for these flights. Say what you will about it, but it is making money for US to do it this way.

That being said though, perhaps a solution would be a government buyback of slots from carriers such as DL and AA, and not redistributed, but retired. For the short term, what needs to happen is the schedule of LGA needs to be set up so that you never exceed the IFR arrival rate in any given hour. That would go a long way toward solving the problem.

I look at an airport like DCA, which like LGA is a slot controlled airport, and has even less capacity than LGA, but yet they almost never have delay issues the way LGA does. Maybe LGA needs to do it like DCA, and that would help as well.
 
lhcvg
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:08 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 26):
Some people call the LGA-PHL flights on US slot holders, but that flight is always consistently full with 50 passengers, and from what I have seen, these aren't customers who are looking for cheap flights either, these customers actually pay good money for what ever reason for these flights. Say what you will about it, but it is making money for US to do it this way.

Fair enough. My complaint is more focused on the ludicrous nature of 20ish flights a day on a route that short using small planes since they contribute massively to congestion at the airport. My comparison with routes to ORD and DCA, the way I see it, is that those two routes do a decent job of maintaining at least large RJ service, whereas PHL from LGA does not, which puts it in a different category.
 
Flighty
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:18 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 27):
My complaint is more focused on the ludicrous nature of 20ish flights a day on a route that short using small planes since they contribute massively to congestion at the airport.

If having too many flights is the problem, reduce the number of slots at LGA. All flights sacrifieced will be RJ flights. There is plenty of room to up-gauge any of the existing routes if passenger demand warrants that. With so many slots available -- and needing to be sat on -- hello RJs.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Delta's move to replace 50 seaters with 70 and 100 seats is nice ... but when you think about it ... adding the estimated 4 million people per year to the airport - it's going to be rather crowded. Longer wait for security, taxi's, and to stand in line for the crummy concession offerings. Joy.

Just think what it would be like if every DL or UA slot was a 767-400. Very efficient use of airspace, but hardly possible. The first 2 ATL flights should be 764s, cancel the 8am and the 10am. Same with the ATL to LGA runs. 4 less flights in the fray. How about Delta forfeiting a slot in exchange for an early arrival from LAX, SFO, or SEA. Those could be the 764s that then head for ATL at 6 and 7. 763s could work as well, but the 764s are bigger and use the slot more efficiently.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 6):
not every city has to have nonstop service to New York's Laguardia Airport.

But every city wants service to LGA. People complain that they don't have LGA service...they get it. Now people complain that they have it! 
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 7):
There are too many terminals and too many planes for an airport that size.

There's really only 3 terminals...Term A(Marine Air Terminal), Term B(the CTB), and Terms C/D(soon to be physically connected).

The gift that was the 3 AA hangars are used to park aircraft. If AA falls apart, those hangars should revert back to the city.

Or go to DL   
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tharanga
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 25):
Reducing the number of slots isn't so easy either. There is a never-ending argument as to who is the true owner of the slots.

There's language in the CFR about this. Somewhere it makes it clear that the airlines do not own the slots, I think.

I did find this, on a quick search, in 14 CFR 93:


"§ 93.130 Suspension of allocations.

The Administrator may suspend the effectiveness of any allocation prescribed in §93.123 and the reservation requirements prescribed in §93.125 if he finds such action to be consistent with the efficient use of the airspace. Such suspension may be terminated whenever the Administrator determines that such action is necessary for the efficient use of the airspace.""

Quoting apodino (Reply 26):
I look at an airport like DCA, which like LGA is a slot controlled airport, and has even less capacity than LGA, but yet they almost never have delay issues the way LGA does.

Isn't the airspace over new york more constrained and complicated than that over DC?
 
spiritair97
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:12 am

Quoting tharanga (Reply 30):
Isn't the airspace over new york more constrained and complicated than that over DC?

Yes if you think about the 20-miles radius between EWR, JFK, and LGA, plus TTN aad ISP, and FRG and HPN, and SWF. All of these airports are within a 100-mile radius and all have decent amounts of traffic in and out each day. Factor in the flights going into BOS, BDL, PVD, and other New England flights flying overhead between 15-20,000 feet, the NYC airspace is a crowded mess.

Altohugh it isn't so crowded with airports, D.C. airspace is still crowded. DCA, BWI, and IAD are there, plus all the flights flying overhead up and down the east coast. The D.C. airspace may not be a packed as the NYC airspace, but it's no bed of roses itself, either.
 
lhcvg
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:52 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 29):
How about Delta forfeiting a slot in exchange for an early arrival from LAX, SFO, or SEA. Those could be the 764s that then head for ATL at 6 and 7. 763s could work as well, but the 764s are bigger and use the slot more efficiently.

I think this idea is going to be the key to solving things at LGA. Flat out capping slots or capacity is not without problems, such as disenfranchising legitimate service to small markets (where it is appropriate), but going a voluntary quid pro quo route should be much more amenable to all parties involved. The PA could institute slot exemptions or other perks in exchange for surrending slots - say 2-3 flights to PHX/LAS/LAX in exchange for US giving up 6-8 PHL frequences (and I don't mean to harp on PHL, it's just a convenient example of LGA's problem) or an ATL example like you use. This would be similar to already proven principle used in meting out new perimeter exemptions at DCA, where incumbents swap 1 in-perimeter large hub slot for 1 to a beyond-perimeter destination.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 31):
Altohugh it isn't so crowded with airports, D.C. airspace is still crowded. DCA, BWI, and IAD are there, plus all the flights flying overhead up and down the east coast. The D.C. airspace may not be a packed as the NYC airspace, but it's no bed of roses itself, either.

The mostly parallel ops between IAD and DCA (IAD seems to use 12/30 as 30 most of the time and for takeoffs, so it's not much hassle) probably helps too when you don't have as much cris-crossing between approaches and departures among the various airports.
 
stlgph
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:14 pm

Giving up slots is a great idea and all - but as I said before -- less planes coming and going means less landing fees coming in and that means the money has to be made up somewhere.

Where will that ultimately go?

Higher airfares.

Port Authority doesn't want to deal with that backlash.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
lhcvg
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 33):
less planes coming and going means less landing fees coming in and that means the money has to be made up somewhere.

Wouldn't/couldn't this be solved by variable fees based on aircraft weight/size? Fewer planes, but larger planes can bring in more per flight, thus cancelling out the decrease.
 
stlgph
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:39 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 34):

Good idea in the head, but not that easy in reality.

You start cutting flights and the second battle after higher airfares is politicians squabbling about cutting back commerce opportunity.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
lhcvg
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 35):
You start cutting flights and the second battle after higher airfares is politicians squabbling about cutting back commerce opportunity.

I agree, but aren't these separate issues? The funding is easily solved by making it up on larger planes, but politicians squabbling is omnipresent, and all they ever do anyway.
 
corinthians
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 34):
Wouldn't/couldn't this be solved by variable fees based on aircraft weight/size? Fewer planes, but larger planes can bring in more per flight, thus cancelling out the decrease.

This has been tried before and failed miserably. The BAA does this at LHR (although they do it just to increase passenger count so more people can use the airport’s concessions). You won’t see anything smaller than an A319 at LHR and there are virtually no domestic flights. Yet LHR is still massively congested. Even more so than LGA and that airport has more airspace to work with. Have you ever landed at LHR without circling around for 20 minutes?

Quoting stlgph (Reply 35):
You start cutting flights and the second battle after higher airfares is politicians squabbling about cutting back commerce opportunity.

Also, the FAA can’t increase fees unless they get Congressional approval as fees are seen as taxes. It would have to be up to the local airport authorities, but I don’t see the PA doing it. They won’t do anything to discourage passenger count. And considering how anti-tax Congress is these days, they won't do anything to increase fees either.

Quoting apodino (Reply 26):
Some people call the LGA-PHL flights on US slot holders, but that flight is always consistently full with 50 passengers, and from what I have seen, these aren't customers who are looking for cheap flights either, these customers actually pay good money for what ever reason for these flights. Say what you will about it, but it is making money for US to do it this way.

I’ve actually flown this flight a few times and it’s always full. And there are certainly cheaper ways of getting to Philly from NY than flying there. So, I don’t buy the arguments that these flights exist to hold onto slots. Besides, US has been drawing down from LGA. If they’re keeping these flights, it’s probably because it’s profitable for them and they have every right to make a profit.
 
lhcvg
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting Corinthians (Reply 37):
I’ve actually flown this flight a few times and it’s always full. And there are certainly cheaper ways of getting to Philly from NY than flying there. So, I don’t buy the arguments that these flights exist to hold onto slots. Besides, US has been drawing down from LGA. If they’re keeping these flights, it’s probably because it’s profitable for them and they have every right to make a profit.

I don't fault them for flying a route where they fill the plane and make money - I fault them because they fly less than 100mi route so many times a day mostly on 50 seaters and less. For tomorrow, I see 13x, with 1 of those being a YX E-170 - the rest are RJs. As I mentioned previously, I don't see as big an issue where you have ORD and DCA taking up about 30x each when those are pretty much all E-Jets or mainline, not 50 seaters with a 70-seater sprinkled in here or there. I dare say that given the distance and that a good chunk of people will be connecting on those flights, they don't need 12x on LGA-PHL if they can only fill 50 seats at a time from a congested airport.
 
stlgph
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 36):
I agree, but aren't these separate issues? The funding is easily solved by making it up on larger planes, but politicians squabbling is omnipresent, and all they ever do anyway.

Again, much easier said than done.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 38):
I don't fault them for flying a route where they fill the plane and make money - I fault them because they fly less than 100mi route so many times a day mostly on 50 seaters and less.

If every airplane landed at LaGuardia that is 50 seats suddenly becomes 100 plus (per the wishes of many here, or even 70 plus), the airport would become an overcrowing nightmare. You need major major facilities upgrades first.
Delta at least is underway in making some improvements in their terminal - but more will be needed.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
AT
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:01 pm

Can someone in the know advise on where the bottlenecks at LGA primarily are? Is it terminal or gate space? Tarmac Space? Runways? etc ?


Only semi-related, but has anyone ever thought of having an air-side to air-side helicopter service from LGA to JFK and vice versa? I know that JFK is fragmented by terminal, but for Delta and American, which have full operations there, it would enable transfer passengers to fly in to one airport and then connect to a gate in the other? How long would a helicopterin ride be? 15 minutes?
 
corinthians
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting at (Reply 40):

Can someone in the know advise on where the bottlenecks at LGA primarily are? Is it terminal or gate space? Tarmac Space? Runways? etc ?
LGA is bottlenecked everywhere. The airport area is too small, which makes taxiing congested. The runways intersect in a not so optimal spot and this varies the arrival and departure rate depending on whatever configuration is used. There is constant demand throughout the day, which leaves virtually no lull periods. Terminals are small. The immediate airspace is congested, so you can’t bring in or move planes out as efficiently as possible. The latter also affects JFK. I think LGA has enough gate space, though. Maybe someone else can chime in on that. But in a nutshell, this airport wasn’t built to handle this much traffic.

Quoting at (Reply 40):
Only semi-related, but has anyone ever thought of having an air-side to air-side helicopter service from LGA to JFK and vice versa? I know that JFK is fragmented by terminal, but for Delta and American, which have full operations there, it would enable transfer passengers to fly in to one airport and then connect to a gate in the other? How long would a helicopterin ride be? 15 minutes?

That would be too inconvenient. And it might affect the airspace of both airports, no? I don’t know, why not build a rail between the two airports? That would probably be more efficient, but probably really expensive.

[Edited 2012-08-02 10:26:31]
 
lhcvg
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:01 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 39):
If every airplane landed at LaGuardia that is 50 seats suddenly becomes 100 plus (per the wishes of many here, or even 70 plus), the airport would become an overcrowing nightmare. You need major major facilities upgrades first.
Delta at least is underway in making some improvements in their terminal - but more will be needed.

I don't know about others, but I have repeatedly taken pains to convey that I'm not against 50 seaters, just 50 seaters when they unreasonably contribute to congestion. Anything I've recommended centers on being more or less capacity neutral while reducing flights (upgauging several flights in return for dropping others) and becoming more pro-active with mandating that flights be spread out over the course of the day. But I don't have any qualms with 50 seaters where they are the only viable option (i.e., smaller markets that deserve LGA service but literally cannot sustain anything over 50 seats at a time).
 
HPRamper
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:34 pm

An upgauge would result in a drop in frequency which may well drive away those high yield business pax. In the end, it's not the responsibility of the airline to take financial hits because of an overcrowded facility that isn't even owned by the airline. Let the city lay the groundwork to show that they give a crap first and maybe the airlines will follow.
 
ckfred
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Delta's move to replace 50 seaters with 70 and 100 seats is nice ... but when you think about it ... adding the estimated 4 million people per year to the airport - it's going to be rather crowded. Longer wait for security, taxi's, and to stand in line for the crummy concession offerings. Joy.

But think back to the 70s, 80s, and 90s, when TWA, AA, UA, and DL often used L-1011s, DC-10s, and 767s to ORD, DTW, ATL, DFW, and STL. I wonder how they handled a plane with 200 to 300 passengers all descending on the baggage claim at the same time.
 
stlgph
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:13 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 44):

...which is why LaGuardia became more regulated to begin with.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 44):
But think back to the 70s, 80s, and 90s, when TWA, AA, UA, and DL often used L-1011s, DC-10s, and 767s to ORD, DTW, ATL, DFW, and STL. I wonder how they handled a plane with 200 to 300 passengers all descending on the baggage claim at the same time.

Because back then frequencies were sensible. Today's travelers insist on getting onto the plane 30 minutes earlier (because *only* hourly frequency will kill their business deals), but don't mind sitting out on the tarmac for 1.5 hours.
 
JBAirwaysFan
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting tharanga (Reply 30):
There's language in the CFR about this. Somewhere it makes it clear that the airlines do not own the slots, I think.

I did find this, on a quick search, in 14 CFR 93:


"§ 93.130 Suspension of allocations.

The Administrator may suspend the effectiveness of any allocation prescribed in §93.123 and the reservation requirements prescribed in §93.125 if he finds such action to be consistent with the efficient use of the airspace. Such suspension may be terminated whenever the Administrator determines that such action is necessary for the efficient use of the airspace.""

Yeah, but it still gets tricky. Bankruptcy courts have historically found slots to be assets belonging to the airline. It's very messy, and despite this language in the CFR airlines will still fight it in court I'm sure.
In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
 
Flighty
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:01 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 46):
Because back then frequencies were sensible. Today's travelers insist on getting onto the plane 30 minutes earlier (because *only* hourly frequency will kill their business deals), but don't mind sitting out on the tarmac for 1.5 hours.

Travelers are not, in any way, making that bargain. "Smoothly running airspace" is not an option ticket buyers are given. That is a government policy that is not in practice right now. It is time to stop blaming travelers for this problem. It is the government's fault for not managing airspace traffic at all. There is too much traffic because there are too many permits that were issued to use it. Again, not passengers' fault. They have zero control over this.
 
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exFWAOONW
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RE: Too Many Regional Jets At LGA?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:24 am

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 9):
That probabaly is the best solution, but where would they get the bigger aircraft?

uhh, one of the design requirements for the DC10 was that it could serve LGA. I think I know a desert where one could find a couple...

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 46):
Today's travelers insist on getting onto the plane 30 minutes earlier (because *only* hourly frequency will kill their business deals), but don't mind sitting out on the tarmac for 1.5 hours

yep. When airlines try to trade A/C size for frequency, "the marketplace" i.e. travelers, punish them by going elsewhere.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?