kiwiandrew

9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:23 pm

http://www.livemint.com/2012/07/3123...et-Airways-seeks-government-n.html

hope this isn't a duplicate. I couldn't see a current thread. It looks as though 9W have finally openly declared their alliance preference. It will be interesting to see what, if any response, they get from the Government of India.


New Delhi: Naresh Goyal-controlled Jet Airways (India) Ltd, the country’s biggest carrier, has sought government permission to join the world’s largest airline grouping, Star Alliance Services GmbH, putting the aviation ministry in a bit of a spot.
 
blueflyer
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Thread starter):
It will be interesting to see what, if any response, they get from the Government of India.

Bureaucrats are still miffed that someone dared tell them No when Air India wanted to join. I bet on a resounding No, as soon as they have power long enough to type a reply, of course.
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:46 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 1):
as soon as they have power long enough to type a reply, of course.

LOL...to those who did not get it! North parts of India esp the Capital New Delhi has been witnessing some dramatic power outages past couple of days.

Honestly why is AI still even in the running...they should have failed all the requirements set by *A by now...   
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:17 am

The Indian Government should let Jet Airways join the Star Alliance and not handicap the entire airline industry of India. The era of protectionism for Air India should end, its hurting the whole airline industry of India. When and if Air India can join an alliance it should do so on its on merit. The Star alliance gave AI all the chances it needed to join but couldn't meet their deadline, its time to move on.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:46 am

9W is the gem of the Indian airlines from an alliance perspective. If the GoI doesn't let 9W into *A, it won't just hurt *A and 9W, it will hurt the whole Indian economy. But more likely the GoI will be petty.

Quoting flyhigh@tom (Reply 2):
Honestly why is AI still even in the running...they should have failed all the requirements set by *A by now...

AI did. *A requires entry within 90 days with extensions given to 6 months. After 3 years, AI was 'failed.'

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
The era of protectionism for Air India should end, its hurting the whole airline industry of India.

It is hurting all of India. When there are shortages of seats

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
The Star alliance gave AI all the chances it needed to join but couldn't meet their deadline, its time to move on.

Given *multiple* chances. AI proved that if informed by *A that they must improve, they won't. Since the GoI has mandated on airline per alliance, all incentive for *A to accommodate AI is gone.

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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:18 pm

I have never flown Air India, is it that bad? If the gov is helping support it, it should be another SQ or RG (in her golden days)

If the gov got out of the way, would AI go the way of RG?

My company did the livery refresh for Jet. The people who did fly Jet for the project said it was a very good airline!
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kann123air
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
I have never flown Air India, is it that bad?

Yes.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
The people who did fly Jet for the project said it was a very good airline!

Yes, it really is. I'd say it's the best airline India has to offer.
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mogandoCI
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:46 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):

The Indian Government should let Jet Airways join the Star Alliance and not handicap the entire airline industry of India. The era of protectionism for Air India should end, its hurting the whole airline industry of India. When and if Air India can join an alliance it should do so on its on merit. The Star alliance gave AI all the chances it needed to join but couldn't meet their deadline, its time to move on.

Totally agreed. By weakening their own carriers, GoI has single-handedly delivered the entire Indian-Europe and India-Americas market to EK/QR on a silver platter.
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
My company did the livery refresh for Jet. The people who did fly Jet for the project said it was a very good airline!

From all the times I flew Jet intra-india, they were by far one of the best carriers I've ever flown. Clean, efficient, and with good customer service.
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 7):
Totally agreed. By weakening their own carriers, GoI has single-handedly delivered the entire Indian-Europe and India-Americas market to EK/QR on a silver platter.

If let loose, Jet has the real potential to be a top tier global carrier that can compete with SQ/EK/QR. They are actually much better positioned for cut-through to asia/aus than dxb.
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
9W is the gem of the Indian airlines from an alliance perspective. If the GoI doesn't let 9W into *A, it won't just hurt *A and 9W, it will hurt the whole Indian economy. But more likely the GoI will be petty.

There's nothing petty about GOI insisting on membership for AI -- indeed, the GOI would be reckless to allow private carriers to join alliances to the extent that doing so harms the economic prospects of the publicly-owned carrier.
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:20 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 10):
There's nothing petty about GOI insisting on membership for AI -- indeed, the GOI would be reckless to allow private carriers to join alliances to the extent that doing so harms the economic prospects of the publicly-owned carrier.

You mean the public carrier who's track record is so bad that it is on many corporations no-fly lists?
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting spink (Reply 11):
You mean the public carrier who's track record is so bad that it is on many corporations no-fly lists?

Indeed. AI is the way it is due primarily to policy preferences and management selections made by, or acquiesced to, by the GOI. When a national government owns a company, it may operate (or intervene in the operation of) that company in any constitutional manner it desires. More to the point, enabling privately-funded carriers to join alliances while the publicly-owned airline is not similarly situated hurts the people of India, and undermines some of the very policy objectives the existence of Air India achieves.
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
I have never flown Air India, is it that bad?

From a financial perspective, it's a nightmare. Loses money by the billions each year. Partly due to bloated labor costs (think USA airlines before Chapter 11), but also due to chronic mismanagement and government interference. The government interference is usually negative for AI, but occasionally positive (like trying to force AI on *A). Regardless, the interference is almost uniformly harmful to our aviation industry.


From a passenger perspective, it's different - AI is a pretty good quality full-service carrier.
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delimit
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:42 pm

Interesting. I am surprised Jet is being so confrontational given my understanding of Indian politics. Putting the Ministry on the spot like that could end up backfiring on them, no?

That or they already know the answer will be yes and have been instructed to ask.
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting Delimit (Reply 14):
That or they already know the answer will be yes and have been instructed to ask.

You may be on to something here. The current aviation minister has in recent past has done away with the policy of first right of refusal to AI on international route allocations.
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting Delimit (Reply 14):
That or they already know the answer will be yes and have been instructed to ask.

I think you've got it...

The current MoCA has been doing everything it can to hurt AI (and benefit private carriers), like prolonging strike situation, DGCA shakeup, 787 fiasco, etc. This would just fall into that pattern.
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting spink (Reply 9):
If let loose, Jet has the real potential to be a top tier global carrier that can compete with SQ/EK/QR. They are actually much better positioned for cut-through to asia/aus than dxb.

I think a hypothetical vision of 2 scissor hubs - MUC + NRT - would work for 9W's network. Have 9W fly from multiple Indian cities (DEL, BOM, MAA, BLR, etc) to those 2 airports, and let LH/NH/UA take it from there.
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
The era of protectionism for Air India should end, its hurting the whole airline industry of India.

It is hurting all of India. When there are shortages of seats

This is NOT about "too many seats", its about the private airline industry subsidizing the government owned airline. Protectionism is why no A380 are flying to India. IF Emirates & Lufthansa are not such threats then let them fly it to india.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 10):
There's nothing petty about GOI insisting on membership for AI -- indeed, the GOI would be reckless to allow private carriers to join alliances to the extent that doing so harms the economic prospects of the publicly-owned carrier.

Its NOT the Indian Governments Job to help Air India and screw Jet and Kingfisher, the time to have Government owned airlines ended 30 years ago. India needs to privatize Air India and offer early retirement to employees. Help it ONE last time and its on its own.
 
ytz
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:35 pm

Oooh boy. Let me get my popcorn....
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 17):
I think a hypothetical vision of 2 scissor hubs - MUC + NRT - would work for 9W's network. Have 9W fly from multiple Indian cities (DEL, BOM, MAA, BLR, etc) to those 2 airports, and let LH/NH/UA take it from there.

Great, but there are very very very few slots open at MUC. And even fewer with desirable times.
 
ytz
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
I have never flown Air India, is it that bad?

Truthfully, it's not as bad as it used to be. But it's a very inconsistent airline. And like any state owned enterprise, is rather universally reviled.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
If the gov is helping support it, it should be another SQ or RG (in her golden days)

You are assuming that the GoI is as efficient and forward-thinking as the Government of Singapore. That is most certainly not the case.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
If the gov got out of the way, would AI go the way of RG?

AI would go the way of Pan Am if the GoI got out of the way.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:58 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 7):
By weakening their own carriers, GoI has single-handedly delivered the entire Indian-Europe and India-Americas market to EK/QR on a silver platter.

Exactly. Now that EK and QR are established, they are not going to go away.

There is no going back on the Air Service agreements either. With Dubai, the Air Service agreement MoU was tied to an expansion of the Indian Chemical and Phara industries in the mid-East (enabled by Dubai). If Dubai looses the Air Service agreement, India forfeits their trading rights that would destroy tens of thousands of Indian jobs.

Trying to preserve AI is halting India signing new bilaterals as the other parties are demanding extensions of the Air Service agreements in order to expand other business in India. The largest example is Korea auto parts production. The government of Korea will not sign an expanded auto parts bilateral without an expanded air service agreement (partially as Hyundai is insisting on rights for ICN-MAA on the airline of their choice).

It isn't just the Indian air carriers suffering. The whole Indian economy is being hurt trying to save AI.

Quoting spink (Reply 9):
Jet has the real potential to be a top tier global carrier that can compete with SQ/EK/QR. They are actually much better positioned for cut-through to asia/aus than dxb.

100% agree. DEL is in a very ideal location. However, with the NEO and MAX, DXB/DOH/AUH will be in narrowbody range of Europe (not A319ER in a long haul configuration, but standard configurations). If 9W is not 'let loose' by the MAX/NEO entry into service, they will have missed an incredible opportunity.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 10):
There's nothing petty about GOI insisting on membership for AI

How isn't it? AI was given multiple extensions to meet the *A requirements and they were not met. 90 days is the standard. That will normally be extended to 180 days. AI failed after over 3 years! AI has proven they will never change to meet *A standards. 9W announced they met *A standards after... get this... 30 days!

Put on the *A hat. Which would you want in your alliance? The flexible partner or the one who wants the alliance to change to benefit them?

It is petty for one very good reason. Once the NEO/MAX enter service, India will be in narrowbody range of IST/the new IST. If *A also adds a mid-East partner. Delays are reducing the opportunities for an Indian *A partner. Much of what would have been a great opportunity for AI is now being done by TK.

Time is an important variable in business. The GoI needs to accept *A has moved on and let them choose whom they wish as a partner.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
India needs to privatize Air India and offer early retirement to employees. Help it ONE last time and its on its own.

I do not believe the GoI has that level of funds. Heck, they lack the coal to power numerous powerplants. The GoI needs to find its priorities

Lightsaber
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting kann123air (Reply 6):
Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
I have never flown Air India, is it that bad?

Yes

I, as well. 4 flights (2 roundtrips JFK/LHR), years apart, all on the same ship. Flight deck crew were accomodating, cabin crew attentive and pleasant. Not bad at all.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 13):
From a passenger perspective, it's different - AI is a pretty good quality full-service carrier.

  
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:40 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 19):
Oooh boy. Let me get my popcorn....

  

Good point...  
Quoting LOWS (Reply 20):
Great, but there are very very very few slots open at MUC. And even fewer with desirable times.

I do not understand why MUC is thrown out for scissor hubs or expansion. It is impacted. New growth will be at the expense of moving existing flights except at less desired times or by luck of one or two slots 'here and there.'

MUC could work for 9W, but only if LH enables it by cutting their flights.

I think 9W would do exceptionally well in *A. *A would benefit by having an Indian partner their existing customers would want to fly. AI just has too far to go before it meets *A expectations (on time performance, moving the schedule to accommodate *A transfers, and seamless ticket sales/codeshares/miles).

Lightsaber
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avek00
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
Its NOT the Indian Governments Job to help Air India and screw Jet and Kingfisher, the time to have Government owned airlines ended 30 years ago. India needs to privatize Air India and offer early retirement to employees. Help it ONE last time and its on its own.
Quoting ytz (Reply 21):
AI would go the way of Pan Am if the GoI got out of the way.

No way India can go without a state-owned carrier at this time. Like it or not, Air India meets various essential national air service needs that the private carriers simply won't handle to the same degree.

Can it be run more efficiently and effectively? Absolutely. But to the extent the government's considerations override business considerations, it's absolutely proper to keep AI wholly state-owned, and to reasonably insulate it from private competitors that are not subject to similar constraints.
Live life to the fullest.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:52 pm

Well, it didn't take as long to get a response from the Indian Government as I thought it might:

http://www.business-standard.com/ind...embership-post-ai-decision/482113/

Naresh Goyal-promoted Jet Airways has to wait for a while before the Ministry of Civil Aviation takes a decision on its application to join the Star Alliance. The government wants the alliance, comprising 27 airlines across the globe, to decide on Air India’s membership before considering other applications.

Presumably by "decide on" they mean "accept AI regardless of whether or not they are fit to join"  

I wonder what would happen if *A said "OK, we have decided.. since AI have not got their act together (in spite of numerous very generous extensions of a length which have not been required by any other candidate airline) and in all likelihood never will get their act together, they are officially off our list of potential members... we don't want them".

Perhaps the best face saving solution all round is for 9W to agree to acquire AI for a token amount of say 50 rupee (yes, I know that is way overpriced, but sometimes sacrifices have to be made) , "merge" taking the AI name but shedding everything else that was AI/IC and then enter *A as "Air India". It seems like a win/win solution.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:54 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 25):
Like it or not, Air India meets various essential national air service needs that the private carriers simply won't handle to the same degree.

Such as ?
 
LOWS
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:57 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
Quoting LOWS (Reply 20):
Great, but there are very very very few slots open at MUC. And even fewer with desirable times.

I do not understand why MUC is thrown out for scissor hubs or expansion. It is impacted. New growth will be at the expense of moving existing flights except at less desired times or by luck of one or two slots 'here and there.'

Tell that to the fine people of München who got to vote about a third MUC runway and said no.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
I do not understand why MUC is thrown out for scissor hubs or expansion. It is impacted. New growth will be at the expense of moving existing flights except at less desired times or by luck of one or two slots 'here and there.'

MUC could work for 9W, but only if LH enables it by cutting their flights.

If 9W joins Star and uses a European partner as a scissor hub (India - 9W - euro hub - LH/LX/SN/OS - US) model, then there are only certain choices to make :

LIS : only good for south america, particularly Brazil
BRU : under-served currently, but also insufficient onward feed
VIE : only a handful of destinations to the Americas
FRA : LH's golden goose, and they probably don't want 9W to compete with their own FRA-India services unless in a JV
ZRH : potentially could work
MUC : most amount of potential out of the existing choices, plus geographically it's minimal backtrack (if any) to most of western Europe
 
ytz
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 25):
No way India can go without a state-owned carrier at this time. Like it or not, Air India meets various essential national air service needs that the private carriers simply won't handle to the same degree.

They can privatize just like Air Canada, which has very similar national requirements. Air Canada has suffered undoubtedly from these requirements. But it was privatized, and it's surely been a lot cheaper on the national balance sheet than the federal government running the airline itself. By law, Air Canada is required to maintain its head office in Montreal (though most major companies have relocated to Toronto since the 90s), a maintenance base in Winnipeg and a fully bilingual customer servicing crew (cabin crew, counter staff, etc.). All these requirements cost Air Canada. But, they are far cheaper than the government bankrolling the airline.

On the Indian side, I daresay, that many of India's "essential national air service needs" are anything but. Strategic airlift? Why doesn't the IAF have it's own integral capabilities? VIP/VVIP transport? Why can't the IAF do it, like most other major air forces in the world? Airlift, medevac to remote communities? Again, why isn't the IAF or another government owned aviation service (like an air ambulance service) doing this? Service to remote communities? Offer a seat subsidy program. There is absolutely no reason that any of Air India's "essential" duties can't be redistributed to other government entities or programs and the airline run as a purely commercial enterprise leading to its eventual privatization.

Quite frankly, if I was an Indian citizen (and I formerly was one), I would be sincerely worried that the GoI relies so much on AI for any essential service. That's a real weakness. What happens, for example, if AI can't provide serious airlift in a military conflict? The fact that AI is being relied upon indicates a massive lack of capability on the part of the IAF. Of course, we all know why AI won't be privatized easily. What other airline would allow some junior minister to commandeer an entire aircraft to fly his entire family on vacation? All, by sending an email. Heaven forbid, that ministers making a lakh a month actually fly a normally scheduled air service, like government officials in every other part of the world.

What I can't believe, is that people are still defending the massive blackhole of an entity after a power outage that has just revealed how massively weak "India Shining" really is. If they don't start making smart decisions soon, India will go back to the decades of "Hindu growth". The billions sunk into AI would have achieved much more for India if they had gone into strenghthening the national power grid. That embarrasment may well cost billions in investment.

[Edited 2012-08-01 13:55:03]
 
ElPistolero
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:02 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
I have never flown Air India, is it that bad? If the gov is helping support it, it should be another SQ or RG (in her golden days)

Its not. I last flew them in 2010 in J and Y longhaul. Their in-flight product (including catering but minus IFE) they're a couple of notches above UA and LH in both cabins. More alcohol, better catering and a couple of extra inches of legroom in economy (none of the 31" stuff UA and LH peddle). The crew can be inconsistent but no worse than TK - ie some real gems and some real disasters.

The non-inflight product, including operational aspects = total mess at times.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
My company did the livery refresh for Jet. The people who did fly Jet for the project said it was a very good airline!

One of my favorite airlines, though their product has deteriorated somewhat over the past couple of years.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
F Emirates & Lufthansa are not such threats then let them fly it to india.

They're allowed to fly 747s. If I m not mistaken, one of their DEL flights is a 747, the other a 340. They could always just upgauge that 340 to a 747. In any case, LH is getting pushed out of secondary markets in India.

EK is a threat to AI.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
India needs to privatize Air India and offer early retirement to employees. Help it ONE last time and its on its own.

The solution is simple, but there is no political will.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
The government of Korea will not sign an expanded auto parts bilateral without an expanded air service agreement (partially as Hyundai is insisting on rights for ICN-MAA on the airline of their choice).

Very interesting.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 25):
No way India can go without a state-owned carrier at this time. Like it or not, Air India meets various essential national air service needs that the private carriers simply won't handle to the same degree.

IIRC, IT and 9W are also required to fly certain routes, regardless of whether or not they are profitable. Which suggests that your argument is very questionable.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 25):
Absolutely. But to the extent the government's considerations override business considerations, it's absolutely proper to keep AI wholly state-owned, and to reasonably insulate it from private competitors that are not subject to similar constraints.

I hope you're joking. They're not insulating it from competition. They're using taxpayer money to kill the competition. There's a difference. Is there any need for a government airline? Give me an example of one service that AI is providing that no other airline can provide.
 
ytz
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 26):
I wonder what would happen if *A said "OK, we have decided.. since AI have not got their act together (in spite of numerous very generous extensions of a length which have not been required by any other candidate airline) and in all likelihood never will get their act together, they are officially off our list of potential members... we don't want them".

I think, as a minimum, the GoI will want the 10 million Euros or whatever they paid as a joining fee, to be returned. Plus, they'll want about $100 billion dollars in compensation for lost business if the 787 debacle is anything to go by. Don't you know? AI would have been bigger than EK by now if all of *A had just adapated to AI and let them in.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 26):
Perhaps the best face saving solution all round is for 9W to agree to acquire AI for a token amount of say 50 rupee (yes, I know that is way overpriced, but sometimes sacrifices have to be made) , "merge" taking the AI name but shedding everything else that was AI/IC and then enter *A as "Air India". It seems like a win/win solution.

The only way any takeover would succeed is if the entity buying AI was allowed to fire every AI employee, ditch the pensioners, and get express legislation that forbids any government official or politician from imposing on AI at all. That's not going to happen. So anything less than actually getting paid $5 billion to take over AI is too much (I'd say $10 billion...but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here).
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:06 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 25):
No way India can go without a state-owned carrier at this time.

Why? India could set up an essential air service bidding process, analogous to what the US has, and get rid of the state airline. It would be far cheaper than keeping AI running and the money saved could be used to save the GoI bond rating and even buy essential stuff. Like coal.   

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 26):
The government wants the alliance, comprising 27 airlines across the globe, to decide on Air India’s membership before considering other applications.

Huh? *A decided. I guess it is time to stamp the application with a big fat "F" and hand it back.

One of the problems is there isn't a precedent for keeping or returning the application fee. No other airline botched the process. The fee didn't cover *A expenses, so they don't have the money to return. AI certainly needs every penny...

Quoting LOWS (Reply 28):
Tell that to the fine people of München who got to vote about a third MUC runway and said no.

I participated in that thread. Their loss. Most of the capacity will be met with Istanbul's new airport or DXB/DOH/AUH. Life moves on... The citizens of MUC just voted the jobs elsewhere. Time will tell how wise of a decision that was.

London vetoed the 3rd runway too. FRA now has a night curfew. The growth will happen somewhere...

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 26):
in spite of numerous very generous extensions of a length which have not been required by any other candidate airline

I notice how that isn't discussed. AI is now the poster child for 'stick to the timeline or else.'

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 26):
Perhaps the best face saving solution all round is for 9W to agree to acquire AI for a token amount of say 50 rupee

What about AI's debt? So and so's cousin employed by AI? There the AI/IA merger proves that there is no benefit. 9W must stay clear of anything AI to have a hope of survival.

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nicode
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:50 pm

So, what will be left for SkyTeam ? IndiGo ?
 
ytz
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:52 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):
The growth will happen somewhere...

I'm all for Europe's obstinence. I'm hoping that this will drive more direct flights to North America.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):
9W must stay clear of anything AI to have a hope of survival.

LOL. Not just 9W. Any business period would be wise to not touch AI with a barge pole. Even being overly reliant on AI as a vendor is dangerous.
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 21):
Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):If the gov got out of the way, would AI go the way of RG?
AI would go the way of Pan Am if the GoI got out of the way.

PA served its purpose, it was sad to see it decline from a two ocean airline to a Caribean airline based in Miami. PA was NOT a government owned airline as many non-American think it was. It was the US Governments policy of giving international routes to all airlines that essentially killed PA. Delta and Braniff from Atlanta and Dallas to Gatwick, was the kind of competition PA tried to kill. Buying National was a bad deal but selling Asia to United, lockerbie and selling LHR to UA is what in the end killed Pan AM.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 31):
e allowed to fly 747s. If I m not mistaken, one of their DEL flights is a 747, the other a 340. They could always just upgauge that 340 to a 747. In any case, LH is getting pushed out of secondary markets in India.

the 747 is yesterdays airplane why don't you say left fly Dc-10's. Today its 777, A330 and A380's. And what is Air India's current long haul plane , why the 777-300ER.
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:54 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 36):
PA served its purpose, it was sad to see it decline from a two ocean airline to a Caribean airline based in Miami. PA was NOT a government owned airline as many non-American think it was.

Apologies. Never meant to imply that PA was government owned.

I just meant that AI would be bankrupt if the GoI left it to its own devices.
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 12):

Indeed. AI is the way it is due primarily to policy preferences and management selections made by, or acquiesced to, by the GOI. When a national government owns a company, it may operate (or intervene in the operation of) that company in any constitutional manner it desires. More to the point, enabling privately-funded carriers to join alliances while the publicly-owned airline is not similarly situated hurts the people of India, and undermines some of the very policy objectives the existence of Air India achieves.

My point being that if an airline is blackballed by a vast number of major corporations, there is simply no way it is ever going to get into an alliance. It doesn't matter what the government wants. By taking their current stance they are hurting the people of India more than if they just outright killed AI.
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:12 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 36):
the 747 is yesterdays airplane why don't you say left fly Dc-10's. Today its 777, A330 and A380's. And what is Air India's current long haul plane , why the 777-300ER.

What do DC-10s have to do with anything? LH currently (as in right now) flies a 744 and a 340 (I think). If they re so worried about capacity, they can upgauge the 340 to a 744. Besides, they've got 748s coming, so I don't see the issue. They can always use that to upgauge their 340 or 330 or whatever they're using.

To be honest, I m simply applying LH's criteria for controlling EK access to Germany to LH in India. They have multiple cities. They have large enough aircraft (which they re not using). The Germany-India market is, I suspect, smaller than the India-UAE market. I could make a case for EK 380s, but for Germany...well, why? LH opposes bilateral revisions when it comes to Germany, so I don't see why it shouldn't get a taste of its own medicine in India.

And then theres that small issue with LH putting all of its eggs in the wrong basket and cozying up to AI in the first place. Much good that did them. Now they're at the recieving end of India's bureaucratic ire as well. IN other words, I wont be holding my breath. SQ, EK and BA 380s will probably make it into India before LH does.

AI is the 77W I think. As is 9W. Whats your point?
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:34 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
AI just has too far to go before it meets *A expectations (on time performance, moving the schedule to accommodate *A transfers, and seamless ticket sales/codeshares/miles).

AI's OTP is over 80%. There are many *A carriers which have far less than 80% OTPs. AI operationally may not be gold standard, but there are far worse alliance member carriers out there

AI's schedule as it is is optimized fairly well for *A international - AI domestic connections (I do this all the time). Moving schedules for international leg would undoubedly happen after AI joined *A and started cooperating for feed. Until then, there is no need for AI to change its schedule.

AI's ticket sales, codeshares, and miles are all fairly seamless as well. AI in fact credits miles the fastest - I've never waited longer than 2 days for my miles to credit in the last 50+ segments... Website has been fully upgraded to alliance standard as well, as it has been for almost 2 years now.

AI has plenty of issues to sort out to fix its financial viability, but it is more or less compliant for alliance membership, whether *A or otherwise.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 26):

Naresh Goyal-promoted Jet Airways has to wait for a while before the Ministry of Civil Aviation takes a decision on its application to join the Star Alliance. The government wants the alliance, comprising 27 airlines across the globe, to decide on Air India’s membership before considering other applications.

Presumably by "decide on" they mean "accept AI regardless of whether or not they are fit to join"

Well, no. AI's application is currently "suspended." MoCA wants AI to either be "rejected" or "accepted" - as long as AI's application is pending, *A cannot invite/accept another carrier, because the Government of India has stated that only 1 carrier can be in a single alliance for (valid) anti-monopolistic reasons.

This is not a new position.

Quoting ytz (Reply 30):
On the Indian side, I daresay, that many of India's "essential national air service needs" are anything but. Strategic airlift? Why doesn't the IAF have it's own integral capabilities? VIP/VVIP transport? Why can't the IAF do it, like most other major air forces in the world? Airlift, medevac to remote communities? Again, why isn't the IAF or another government owned aviation service (like an air ambulance service) doing this? Service to remote communities? Offer a seat subsidy program. There is absolutely no reason that any of Air India's "essential" duties can't be redistributed to other government entities or programs and the airline run as a purely commercial enterprise leading to its eventual privatization.

I agree somewhat. While I agree that many of the current "essential air service needs" that AI takes care of could be better served by other mechanisms, I don't agree that there are no essential air service needs which AI could take care of.

Most notably, I fully support using government funds to fund foreign policy initiatives, assuming the Ministry of Extermal Affairs (and Ministry of Home Affairs) can get themselves together and utilize the carrier properly.

CA's service to FNJ and TK's service to MGQ are notable examples of how flag carriers can further foreign policy initiatives, build and strengthen trade links, etc. These kinds of routes would not be viable without the government backbone supporting the service - if these airlines were run for purely commercial reasons, then they lose the strategic advantages that a flag carrier comes with.

Another advantage is that AI will support indigenous technological advancement - the current HAL/NAL passenger aircraft project (RTA-70), which will improve India's aviation technology, is only viable because they know that AI is a guaranteed order. AI is in effect bringing our aircraft building technology forward by virtue of being state owned.

The Air India which loses money by the planeload flying 77Ws to Chicago and Toronto is not the Air India which deserves support. It's the AI which flies to Kabul and Yangon, to Kargil and Leh, to Nairobi and Dakar, and from the Gulf to the likes of IXE and CCJ bringing dirt poor migrant traffic back home which deserves support.
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:20 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 35):
I'm all for Europe's obstinence. I'm hoping that this will drive more direct flights to North America.

Out of curiosity, from where? ULH from India lacks enough high yield traffic to pay for the higher CASM of ULH. I see the flights shifting to IST and BER as they are close enough to North America for very economical 787, A350, 77W, 748I, and A380 flights (not the higher CASM 77L). Then again, the next efficiency improvement of the 77W (not even the 77X) will really help mid-east to North-America costs, but not India to North-America.

If India were to ever resolve issues with the bilaterals with Korea, I could see ICN for the North America west coast too.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 40):
AI has plenty of issues to sort out to fix its financial viability, but it is more or less compliant for alliance membership, whether *A or otherwise.

   More or less means not ready. *A has 80 criteria to join. I'd love to see how AI 'racks and stacks' against the 80 criteria:


"NEW DELHI, India - July 31st, 2011 - The member airlines of the Star Alliance network and Air India have jointly concluded that the integration of Air India into the global airline alliance will be suspended. This is due to the fact that Air India has not met the minimum joining conditions that were contractually agreed in December 2007.
Following a recent review of the status of Air India's application at a meeting held between the Indian Ministry for Civil Aviation, Star Alliance CEO, Jaan Albrecht and the Air India CMD, Arvind Jadhav, the decision to suspend has received subsequent confirmation by the Star Alliance Chief Executive Board.
Star Alliance CEO, Jaan Albrecht said: "With the collective decision to put the integration efforts on hold today we aim to contribute to Air India's flexibility to concentrate on its ongoing strategic reorientation. In this process our member carriers will continue to provide assistance to Air India wherever required."
Existing bilateral relationships with Star Alliance member airlines are not affected by this decision, which also leaves room to discuss a potential Alliance membership at a future stage, if deemed appropriate by both parties."

from: http://www.staralliance.com/en/press/starairindia-prp/

In a few years the NEO and MAX will have the range to service almost all of India from IST (MAA would be a stretch for a narrowbody, but a few widebody destinations should work). Thus, there is no reason for *A to roll over. 9W would add value to the alliance. AI...   

As already noted:

Quoting spink (Reply 38):
My point being that if an airline is blackballed by a vast number of major corporations, there is simply no way it is ever going to get into an alliance. It doesn't matter what the government wants. By taking their current stance they are hurting the people of India more than if they just outright killed AI.

Due to poor service, numerous strikes, and other issues AI no longer adds the value to an alliance they would have in 2007. Its time for everyone to let go of the idea if AI in *A. It isn't going to happen. That hope ended a year ago. Let 9W join *A and let AI and 6E negotiate for another alliance.

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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:30 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 41):
More or less means not ready. *A has 80 criteria to join. I'd love to see how AI 'racks and stacks' against the 80 criteria:

AI claims that they are 80/80:

Quote:

Two officials at the civil aviation ministry said the rejection came after the ministry didn’t agree to a demand from the alliance to give Jet Airways (India) Ltd the go-ahead to join the grouping.



“Star Alliance told us that they will draft a letter on behalf of Jet Airways which the ministry needs to sign as a no-objection certificate for Jet to also be a Star member before Star gives a green signal for Air India to join,” a top ministry official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. “This was an atrocious demand and was completely rejected.”

A second ministry official, who also did not want to be named, confirmed the demand: “They said either we take Jet and Air India or none is welcome.” The row could escalate, with the Indian authorities planning to issue an official statement, he said. “We will reply appropriately to Star. As far as we are concerned, Star can forget India,” he added.



Gerhard Girkinger, chief project manager at Star Alliance, who has been supervising the integration process with Air India, wrote to the carrier on 30 July and said that much of the work was “done”.

“I can confirm the status of the integration based on the attached spreadsheets. From my perspective, this means we are basically done although I need formal sign-off. All the other components depend on a joining date,” Girkinger wrote.



Klick did not deny the communication. “Notwithstanding the fact that Air India must have breached our confidentiality agreement with such information, I can confirm the following: The decision to accept compliance to the full set of minimum joining conditions as contractually agreed to in 2007 is not taken/confirmed by a project manager in the Star Alliance Service GmbH responsible for the implementation of a certain set of so-called components,” he said.

The people I know at AI have also confirmed that AI is *A compliant, with the exception of a few FFP issues which could only be resolved after an official entrance date was announced.

And on a personal note, as a passenger, I have watched AI's IT go from incredibly poor to fairly usable. At least the passenger interface upgrades definitely happened.
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:42 am

Quoting avek00 (Reply 25):
No way India can go without a state-owned carrier at this time. Like it or not, Air India meets various essential national air service needs that the private carriers simply won't handle to the same degree.

I disagree. AI does not meet a single need of the country - not to improve tourist traffic, not to cater to the gulf traffic, not to cater to the IT traffic etc. on the international front. On the domestic front either - they don't serve any purpose at all.
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:56 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 42):
AI claims that they are 80/80:

Then we have incompatible press releases. I'm not finding the links now, but I recall reading at the time how AI still had a few IT issues a year ago.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 42):
I have watched AI's IT go from incredibly poor to fairly usable. At least the passenger interface upgrades definitely happened.

That I have heard. But the question is, what was ready a year and a day ago?

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 42):
“Star Alliance told us that they will draft a letter on behalf of Jet Airways which the ministry needs to sign as a no-objection certificate for Jet to also be a Star member before Star gives a green signal for Air India to join,” a top ministry official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. “This was an atrocious demand and was completely rejected.”

I realize you are quoting, but why is that an atrocious demand? The reality is that 9W is preferred by enough customers to be a stronger parter for *A.

I'd like to see *one* Indian airline join an alliance ASAP. I guess that will be 6E with Skyteam or OW.  

If I were a *A executive, this reply would not dissuade me from pursuing 9W. I would press for a vote instead of a dismissal.

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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:09 am

Quoting Nimish (Reply 43):
I disagree. AI does not meet a single need of the country - not to improve tourist traffic, not to cater to the gulf traffic, not to cater to the IT traffic etc. on the international front. On the domestic front either - they don't serve any purpose at all.

I disagree here.

AI does not improve tourist traffic, but that is not really an aim of AI. AI certainly does cater to gulf traffic, as anyone in my hometown of IXE will tell you. IX is the best thing since sliced bread to the migrant workers who can now see their families more often than ever before (once a year or so). Catering to IT traffic isn't really an aim of AI either.

AI does carry out quite a few functions... As YTZ mentioned, there are things like strategic airlift, VIP transport, airlift, medvac capabilities, etc. etc. Saying that these functions would be more efficiently carried out in other ways (like through IAF) is certainly valid, but sadly the reality cannot change overnight, especially when you include the Indian bureaucracy.

And AI certainly does provide some policy functions, such as providing service to KBL and RGN (2 destinations off the top of my head), which improves strategic ties, economic ties, etc. etc. SG is now launching KBL, but when it was an immature market, there is no chance a private carrier would have tried it.

AI has a long way to improve, and the current utility of the carrier is not particularly great, but to say that it is utterly useless isn't quite accurate. And if used properly, AI could be a great tool. Perhaps asking for AI to be used properly by GoI is asking too much though....

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):

Then we have incompatible press releases.

We do  .

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
I'm not finding the links now, but I recall reading at the time how AI still had a few IT issues a year ago.

AI's IT is compliant. It has been compliant for over a year now. That's all I can say...

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
That I have heard. But the question is, what was ready a year and a day ago?

Yeah, the improvements have been coming steadily, but the major upgrade happened in late 2010.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
I realize you are quoting, but why is that an atrocious demand? The reality is that 9W is preferred by enough customers to be a stronger parter for *A.

It's an atrocious demand because it's blackmail. *A invited AI with the understanding that AI would be the exclusive Indian carrier (go back to press releases when the announcement first happened). These kinds of moves are not in good faith.
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:25 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 45):
It's an atrocious demand because it's blackmail. *A invited AI with the understanding that AI would be the exclusive Indian carrier (go back to press releases when the announcement first happened). These kinds of moves are not in good faith.

the press release on the AI website doesn't mention anything about exclusivity

http://airindia.in/SBCMS/Webpages/2007-AI-to-join-star-alliance.aspx



December 13, 2007


Star Alliance Chief Executive Board Approved Membership.

At their annual Board Meeting, the CEO’s of the Star Alliance member airlines have today voted to accept the application of Air India to become a future member of the alliance.Glenn Tilton, Chairman and CEO of United Airlines, in his capacity as the Chairman of Meeting said: “India has long been on the radar of Star Alliance; after all it is one of the world’s fastest growing economies and aviation markets. Having now come to an agreement with Air India makes us the first airline alliance to secure a member in India, which will enable our customers to receive more benefits when travelling to, from and within India in the future.”

“Air India is delighted in being invited to join Star Alliance. This invitation comes in the wake of Air India’s merger with India’s leading domestic carrier Indian Airlines, thus making Air India the prime player in the Indian subcontinent. In addition, the recently announced fleet expansion of over 100 aircraft will help Air India serve the travelling public better in terms of global reach and services. In being selected as a future Star Alliance member, Air India will add value to passengers patronising member airlines of the alliance”, said Vasudevan Thulasidas, Chairman and Managing Director, Air India.

The specialised teams at Air India, Star Alliance and its member carriers will now be working on the integration process, which once completed, will make Air India a part of the Star Alliance network, currently consisting of 19 members.



The press release has been removed from the Star Alliance website, but I don't recall any mention of exclusivity in that release either... usually the woring of the release on the Star website and the airline website are more or less identical.
 
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:18 pm

Question,
What legal rights of appeal from this decision does 9W have? Obviously they shouldn't sit still. Or is the GoI that formal? What is the next step for Jet? Is there a court they may file a lawsuit?

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 45):
*A invited AI with the understanding

That AI would comply with admittance rules to the alliance in 2008.

*A often has competing members. That is the nature of joining the largest alliance.
Anyway, outside of the GoI, I do not hear anything about AI and *A anymore. The topic is 9W and *A and I see no legitimate reason why 9W shouldn't join. If the GoI holds grudges... Well they should read an economics book called "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" by Thomas Freedman. It goes into why societies that fixate on grudges instead of growth... don't grow as quick!

There are far more important issues to worry about for the GoI now and in the next year due to waves of economic uncertainty.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 46):
December 13, 2007

AI was not the AI that released that press release in July of 2011 anyway.

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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 46):
The press release has been removed from the Star Alliance website, but I don't recall any mention of exclusivity in that release either... usually the woring of the release on the Star website and the airline website are more or less identical.

I'll have to look, but I vividly remember press releases both from AI and Star which used the word exclusive multiple times... Perhaps not the first one, but probably more like 2009?

I'll try to find the link when I get home this evening...

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
What legal rights of appeal from this decision does 9W have? Obviously they shouldn't sit still. Or is the GoI that formal? What is the next step for Jet? Is there a court they may file a lawsuit?

Not really. They fall under the purview of MoCA, and the ministry has not made an unreasonably change in policy or unfairly targeted 9W...
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RE: 9W Asks GoI For Permission To Join Star

Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:08 pm

One should take aerobloggers pro-AI comments with a large boulder of salt. While AI's inflight product is good, they are extremely unreliable and being state protected operation, have a dont give sh$% about the customer attitude. I have made the mistake of believing the Kool Aid that AI has improved, but have never had an on-time experience with them in the last 10 years. My advice to anyone is DONT DO IT - even if their rates are the lowest (which it often is). One has to wonder why their India market share is approaching single digits today after having a sheer monopoly just 2 decades ago and despite 10's of billions of dollars in government support. The customer knows best! It would be best for India if AI just ceased to exist, but politicians continue to use this airline as their plaything.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 40):
AI's OTP is over 80%. There are many *A carriers which have far less than 80% OTPs. AI operationally may not be gold standard, but there are far worse alliance member carriers out there

AI's schedule as it is is optimized fairly well for *A international - AI domestic connections (I do this all the time). Moving schedules for international leg would undoubedly happen after AI joined *A and started cooperating for feed. Until then, there is no need for AI to change its schedule.

AI's ticket sales, codeshares, and miles are all fairly seamless as well. AI in fact credits miles the fastest - I've never waited longer than 2 days for my miles to credit in the last 50+ segments... Website has been fully upgraded to alliance standard as well, as it has been for almost 2 years now.

AI has plenty of issues to sort out to fix its financial viability, but it is more or less compliant for alliance membership, whether *A or otherwise.