mikey72
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BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:55 am

If one of the middle eastern carriers joins Oneworld could BA use A318's from LCY as kind of Club World shuttles to a middle eastern base ?

To connect passengers to a middle eastern carriers network ?

Passengers could then get seamless premuim service from LCY to places like SYD ?

Apologies if the A318 does not have the range.
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tonystan
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:15 am

They would firstly need to purchase a few more A318s. However they would not have the range to even reach the likes of DXB from LCY and the requirement to stop and refuel may make the service less advantageous to just lugging it out to LHR. This refuelling is negated on the JFK service by the bonus of being able to do US Preclearance in Shannon!
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bill142
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:49 am

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
They would firstly need to purchase a few more A318s. However they would not have the range to even reach the likes of DXB from LCY and the requirement to stop and refuel may make the service less advantageous to just lugging it out to LHR. This refuelling is negated on the JFK service by the bonus of being able to do US Preclearance in Shannon!

LCY-DXB is shorter than JFK-LCY which the A318 does non-stop. LCY itself is the problem as the runway is too short to take off with a full load.
 
fcogafa
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:02 am

Maybe when the C Series comes along it will be viable as it is supposed to have the range to do these distances direct from shorter runways.
 
mikey72
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:05 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 2):
LCY itself is the problem as the runway is too short to take off with a full load.

Damn !

Bound to have been a nice little earner with all those connection opportunities.
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mikey72
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:53 am

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 3):
Maybe when the C Series comes along it will be viable as it is supposed to have the range to do these distances direct from shorter runways.

Yes.

Am afraid to mention the possibilty of maybe doing this from other airports too ?

It's just that having the possibility of a connecting hub relatively close to the UK with a Oneworld member 'hubbed' there.

With the LCY/JFK service a succes it makes you think ?

[Edited 2012-08-01 03:54:33]
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cedarjet
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:53 am

Ah, one of the favourite a.net aircraft, BA's A318s (joint first place - or should I say gold medal - with SQ's A340-500s). What do you think this one'll run to, 50 posts?

I sat next to the boss of London City Airport on the inaugural BA 002, JFK-LCY on 29 Sep 2009 (arr +1). He said LCY has room to park four A318s and before the financial crash, they were looking at Boston, Dubai and Washington. Can't remember what he said about the fuel stop issue for DXB. But the service started after the crisis, with less business travel etc, and Dubai hit particularly hard, so they were content to focus on NY. I suspect that hasn't changed in the (nearly) three years since.

Quoting mikey72 (Thread starter):
If one of the middle eastern carriers joins Oneworld

Don't forget Royal Jordanian are already members - although Amman is not exactly a high-yield destination, and one BA were happy to let British Mediterranean / British Midland serve with A320s. Presumably they'll hang on to it now, but a regular A320 from LHR is as much as they can hope for on that particular run - and BA probably serve three times as many destinations in Asia as RJ do. (I do realise the opening premise really meant a Persian Gulf carrier, and LCY to Australia would generate a few bums on seats each day for sure.)
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mikey72
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:57 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 6):
sat next to the boss of London City Airport on the inaugural BA 002, JFK-LCY on 29 Sep 2009 (arr +1). He said LCY has room to park four A318s and before the financial crash, they were looking at Boston, Dubai and Washington. Can't remember what he said about the fuel stop issue for DXB. But the service started after the crisis, with less business travel etc, and Dubai hit particularly hard, so they were content to focus on NY. I suspect that hasn't changed in the (nearly) three years since.

Does not a middle eastern carrier in Oneworld rather increase the scope of such a venture ?

What about somewhere like SOU ?

I am considering connecting traffic not just people terminating in say DXB or DOH etc

[Edited 2012-08-01 03:58:50]

[Edited 2012-08-01 04:49:45]
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mikey72
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:56 am

SOU is 'literally' right next to Southampton Parkway Train Station.

Say QR joined Oneworld for example...could BA connect premium passengers to QR's network on an A318 (or similar)from SOU ?

What's wrong with SOU-DOH-SYD or SOU-DOU-XXX etc etc

I know that much bigger jets than an A318 arrive and depart SOU occasionally.

[Edited 2012-08-01 04:59:57]

[Edited 2012-08-01 05:09:45]
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PlymSpotter
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:05 pm

In the future I would not be surprised if BA replaces the ERJs and the A318 with the CS100. For the same reason that the A318 is limited to four stands, LCY would have to complete its remodeling before that could happen, but it is going to happen.

That would open up a lot of destinations, direct. The CS100 has a range of 2,950nm with 110 pax/bags and reserves etc... That is with a field length of 1,509m, so you can lop a bit off for LCY's shorter declared distances but, in a full C configuration, Bombardier are confident it can do well in excess of 3,000nm non stop from LCY.


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mikey72
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:24 pm

SOU is 'literally' right next to Southampton Parkway Train Station.

Say QR joined Oneworld for example...could BA connect premium passengers to QR's network on an A318 (or similar)from SOU ?

What's wrong with SOU-DOH-SYD or SOU-DOU-XXX etc etc

I know that much bigger jets than an A318 arrive and depart SOU occasionally.

Sorry to repeat..but just wanted to add this.

Southampton Airport is served by a dedicated mainline railway station, Southampton Airport Parkway, on the South Western Main Line from London Waterloo (just 66 minutes away) and Winchester to Southampton, Bournemouth, Poole, Dorchester and Weymouth with a fast and frequent service to those places.

*** The station is conveniently located just a 60 second walk from the terminal (one of the closest airport links across Europe).***

The airport is also located close to the junction between the M3 motorway and M27 motorway, giving easy road access to Southampton, Winchester, Bournemouth, Portsmouth and places between.

[Edited 2012-08-01 05:25:49]
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skipness1E
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:24 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 8):
What's wrong with SOU-DOH-SYD or SOU-DOU-XXX etc etc

Sounds like a BA regional operation. Why not just upguage equipment out of LHR?
With the loss of preclearance on the BA003 I wonder if the LCY operation will continue going forward?
 
mikey72
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
Sounds like a BA regional operation. Why not just upguage equipment out of LHR?

Do you have any idea how much 'money' there is in southern England ?

The New Forest, Bournemouth, Poole, Winchester , Southampton cruise terminal and so on.

SOU could be a 'gem' from a passenger perspective and take some heat off LHR.

How many Club World 32 seat A318's (or similar) could you fill daily from SOU with the entire eastern hemisphere up for grabs ?

3 or 4 ?

[Edited 2012-08-01 05:36:40]

[Edited 2012-08-01 05:44:53]
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skipness1E
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):

Do you have any idea how much 'money' there is in southern England ?

Of course I do, there's loads around MAN and LGW but do I see it happeneing there either? Nope. SOU is a flybe monopoly and frankly looks likely to stay that way.
 
mikey72
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:52 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 13):
Of course I do, there's loads around MAN and LGW but do I see it happeneing there either? Nope. SOU is a flybe monopoly and frankly looks likely to stay that way.

It does happen there.

EK for one thing.

?

FLYBE ?

What's it got to do with them ?

Up until recently the possibilty of a middle eastern carrier in Oneworld has not been on the agenda anyway.

[Edited 2012-08-01 05:54:21]
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skipness1E
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:01 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 14):
What's it got to do with them ?

WHAT? Are you being funny? My point is that almost the only major airline SOU have is flybe. SOU really struggles to do much beyond that, the biggest aircraft they get is a VY A320. All the money round SOU uses LHR, as does much of the money round LGW! Also the runway at SOU is not that much longer than LCY.
LCY 1508m
SOU 1723m

[Edited 2012-08-01 06:05:33]
 
mikey72
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:51 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 15):
WHAT? Are you being funny? My point is that almost the only major airline SOU have is flybe. SOU really struggles to do much beyond that, the biggest aircraft they get is a VY A320. All the money round SOU uses LHR, as does much of the money round LGW! Also the runway at SOU is not that much longer than LCY.
LCY 1508m
SOU 1723m

Hang on.

If QR, EY or EK join Oneworld.....a now quite likely scenario.....

There has never in the entire history of British civil aviation been a possibilty for a British carrier to utiilze a middle eastern hub and cooperate with its home carrier at this level.

The relative closeness of these hubs results in the possibility to send small premium configured jets to connect with the network of a middle eastern carrier from relatively small (even by regional standards) airports.

We're not talking thousands of people a day but on a small fleet of 32 seat premium configured jets the catchment areas are ample. Pretty good yields there !

What's more for a short sector like SOU/DOH (for example) flight/cabin crew could be bussed in from LHR to operate the trips on a daily basis so no crew base is required.

[Edited 2012-08-01 07:29:23]
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skipness1E
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:46 pm

Why do I need multiple small aircraft and crews? Connecting MAD to the regions isn't the idea, flying widebodies out of LHR is. I expect a similar sceario would happen to the Middle East, A388 perhaps.
 
BestWestern
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:54 pm

How about a BOH AMM?
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mikey72
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 17):
Why do I need multiple small aircraft and crews?

Why ? Why ? Why ?

Why does any airline fly anywhere ?

Look at SOU....

Southampton Airport is served by a dedicated mainline railway station, Southampton Airport Parkway, on the South Western Main Line from London Waterloo (just 66 minutes away) and Winchester to Southampton, Bournemouth, Poole, Dorchester and Weymouth with a fast and frequent service to those places.

*** The station is conveniently located just a 60 second walk from the terminal (one of the closest airport links across Europe).***

The airport is also located close to the junction between the M3 motorway and M27 motorway, giving easy road access to Southampton, Winchester, Bournemouth, Portsmouth and places between.

***

The BA A318 is like a flying 744 upper deck. Always the most popular club cabin.

With a ME carrier in Oneworld it is a possibility to use SOU as a spoke.

(no need to have a base there, sub contract out the ground handling and bus in the small amount of flying staff to hotel the night before or operate on the day even....all BA would have to do is provide the aircraft and provide a swish lounge)

We aint getting no 3rd runway anytime soon are we ?

[Edited 2012-08-01 08:07:12]
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ScottB
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 16):
The relative closeness of these hubs results in the possibility to send small premium configured jets to connect with the network of a middle eastern carrier from relatively small (even by regional standards) airports.

We're not talking thousands of people a day but on a small fleet of 32 seat premium configured jets the catchment areas are ample. Pretty good yields there !

But you have to ask if there's a good reason to hand over that traffic to a middle eastern carrier -- even if that carrier is in the same alliance. It's very likely that most of the markets with appreciable premium demand from London are already served non-stop by BA from LHR, and the premium service you suggest from SOU would take away from that -- and give a good piece of the revenue to the cooperative partner.

In the case of LCY-JFK, BA is offering a differentiated service in a city-pair (LON-NYC) where five carriers (BA, AA, DL, UA, VS) covering all three major alliances compete with non-stop service. There may simply be value in offering the service in the interest of locking in contracts with financial firms for which LCY is convenient.
 
mikey72
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:29 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 20):
But you have to ask if there's a good reason to hand over that traffic to a middle eastern carrier -- even if that carrier is in the same alliance. It's very likely that most of the markets with appreciable premium demand from London are already served non-stop by BA from LHR, and the premium service you suggest from SOU would take away from that -- and give a good piece of the revenue to the cooperative partner.

Yes there is that but there is a hell of alot of traffic leaving LHR on other carriers that otherwise might choose BA/QR if SOU was nearer. (with the benefit of avoiding a big hub like LHR)

(BA/QR is just an example)

(remember we're only talking a very small proportion of overall LHR traffic poached from all carriers not just BA.... an A318 not A380...that's the beauty of it)

I think it's a deliciously inexpensive, simple and easy way to draw premium traffic in light of a middle eastern member in Oneworld.



[Edited 2012-08-01 08:35:45]

[Edited 2012-08-01 08:46:02]
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ScottB
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 21):
there is a hell of alot of traffic leaving LHR on other carriers that otherwise might choose BA/QR if SOU was nearer. (with the benefit of avoiding a big hub like LHR)

I'd expect that most of the traffic willing to pay for premium class seating would prefer a non-stop flight wherever possible. If a premium class passenger already chooses to make a connection on a competitor from LHR, I'd wager they do so based on price, program loyalty, or service quality. A boutique service like the one you suggest isn't going to be an effective competitor on price (and shouldn't undercut BA's own services from LHR). And I'd argue that it probably won't move the needle much on program loyalty or choice based on service.
 
skipness1E
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:59 pm

If we cannot get premium traffic to use GATWICK, in Surrrey, one of the wealthiest parts of the country witha fabulous (when it works !) airport, how are we going to get them to use SOU, which is frankly a tin shed. It's as basic as it's possible to be without FR. Mikey I know you like to debate, and yeah it's "possible" but classed under very, very unlikely.
 
mikey72
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 23):
If we cannot get premium traffic to use GATWICK, in Surrrey, one of the wealthiest parts of the country witha fabulous (when it works !) airport, how are we going to get them to use SOU, which is frankly a tin shed. It's as basic as it's possible to be without FR. Mikey I know you like to debate, and yeah it's "possible" but classed under very, very unlikely.

It's a great airport with fabulous links via road and rail.

EK flies 3 times a day from LGW on 777's to its middle eastern hub with a hell of alot of premium passengers.

I believe there is a market for premium configured A318 service from SOU to a middle eastern hub when you consider the myriad of connecting destinations that would be available.

It is absolutely no different a concept than the one used by middle eastern carriers at any other regional airport in the UK.

In fact if it was physically possible to operate a 777 out of SOU I bet EK would have looked at it !!!
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skipness1E
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 24):
I believe there is a market for premium configured A318 service from SOU to a middle eastern hub when you consider the myriad of connecting destinations that would be available.

Switch SOU to BRS and change Middle Eastern to American to feed the enormous American Airlines operation. That's not going to happen. SOU has almost no room for expansion, nor would BAA ever want to given they own LHR.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 24):

In fact if it was physically possible to operate a 777 out of SOU I bet EK would have looked at it !!!

I'm going to stop now, because I honestly think you're just arguing for the sake of it. You're normally wise enough to differentiate between what is technically possible and what is commercially likely. I think you're well off your game today.
 
mikey72
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 25):
I'm going to stop now, because I honestly think you're just arguing for the sake of it. You're normally wise enough to differentiate between what is technically possible and what is commercially likely. I think you're well off your game today.

skipness it's a couple of poxy (forgive me) A318's...not a fleet of A380's.

Regards BRS and American...BA have the Atlantic in their back pocket anyway....why bother.

This is certainly not the case going east.
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liftsifter
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:59 pm

Why is everyone saying "if" a Middle East carrier joins...? RJ is already a part of One World, no need for another middle east connection...
A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A342 A343 A346 A380 B736 B737 B738 B744 B763 B77L B77E B77W B788 E190
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 10):
What's wrong with SOU-DOH-SYD or SOU-DOU-XXX etc etc

What is wrong with SOU-FRA-XXX, SOU-AMS-XXX or SOU-CDG-XXX? If there was the kind of huge premium demand you are suggesting, these would all be served already by the home carriers already.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
Do you have any idea how much 'money' there is in southern England ?

The New Forest, Bournemouth, Poole, Winchester , Southampton cruise terminal and so on.

Yes I do, but those are not the epitome of 'money' in the South of England

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
SOU could be a 'gem' from a passenger perspective and take some heat off LHR.

From a passenger perspective, perhaps. But it would be of no benefit to BA to do this - as mentioned, there is no serious competition into SOU for them to be bothered about.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
How many Club World 32 seat A318's (or similar) could you fill daily from SOU with the entire eastern hemisphere up for grabs ?

3 or 4 ?

No, not even one. BA manage to not fill two daily A318s between two of the largest premium o/d air travel markets in the world. You are not going to fill three or four services to a ME hub from SOU, it's just fantasy I'm afraid.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 14):
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 13):
Of course I do, there's loads around MAN and LGW but do I see it happeneing there either? Nope. SOU is a flybe monopoly and frankly looks likely to stay that way.

It does happen there.

EK for one thing.

No it doesn't. Filling an A330, 777 or A380 with a a mixture of F, C, Y and lots of cargo is a totally different ball game to filling a premium only A318 from SOU, which would probably be weight restricted so it couldn't even carry cargo.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 16):
The relative closeness of these hubs results in the possibility to send small premium configured jets to connect with the network of a middle eastern carrier from relatively small (even by regional standards) airports.

Yes it raises the possibility, but one glance at the figures and it's clear that there is no way you could operate such a service profitably. The costs would be enormous, you would have to charge a huge premium over LHR/LGW fares to come anywhere near break even, and that would never work.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 16):
We're not talking thousands of people a day but on a small fleet of 32 seat premium configured jets the catchment areas are ample. Pretty good yields there !

What's more for a short sector like SOU/DOH (for example) flight/cabin crew could be bussed in from LHR to operate the trips on a daily basis so no crew base is required.

I disagree entirely - you have no idea what the loads/yields would be like - I can't see any way it could be flown profitably. And SOU-DOH is not short, it's a mid-haul 7 hour flight.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 19):
Why ? Why ? Why ?

Why does any airline fly anywhere ?

Because there is a demand for the service which makes the operation profitable.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 19):
With a ME carrier in Oneworld it is a possibility to use SOU as a spoke.

Honestly, no way. If you were talking about KLM, LH, AF or perhaps IB then I could see an argument. But not the ME.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 19):
We aint getting no 3rd runway anytime soon are we ?

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Might not be what you expect, but things are happening.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 24):
EK flies 3 times a day from LGW on 777's to its middle eastern hub with a hell of alot of premium passengers.

The clue is what the 'L' stands for in LGW...

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 24):
I believe there is a market for premium configured A318 service from SOU to a middle eastern hub when you consider the myriad of connecting destinations that would be available.

It is absolutely no different a concept than the one used by middle eastern carriers at any other regional airport in the UK.

In fact if it was physically possible to operate a 777 out of SOU I bet EK would have looked at it !!!

They probably would. But that's the whole point, in terms of airline economics operating a multi-class 777 with cargo is worlds apart from an all premium A318 - they are completely different.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 25):
Switch SOU to BRS and change Middle Eastern to American to feed the enormous American Airlines operation. That's not going to happen. SOU has almost no room for expansion, nor would BAA ever want to given they own LHR.

Agreed regarding LHR and BAA, but I do think BRS could support a TATL service from a SkyTeam airline. The BRS catchment is a hotspot for SkyTeam Elites and the region has (IIRC) this highest disposable income outside of London.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 26):
Regards BRS and American...BA have the Atlantic in their back pocket anyway....why bother.

Same goes for SOU. Why bother operating a premium only service when the SOU/South/South East market is in their pocket anyway?


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LX138
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:21 pm

What are people taking on here?

Why on earth would BA want to 'feed' a middle east carrier???

As someone currently pointed out, a percentage of the revenue obviously goes to the other carrier - BA absoloutely hates feeding other carriers unless they have to. Secondly, there is no demand for an all J service on a A318 to places such as AUS/NZ etc.

An ex-SOU service is complete and utter madness. The percentage of people using the existing LCY-JFK service that originate or finish within the SOU catchment area is probably 0.0001% percent.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 21):
(with the benefit of avoiding a big hub like LHR)

Despite what you might read on here, most people don't 'try' to avoid LHR if they are flying into London.
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ZaphodB
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 23):
GATWICK, in Surrrey

Almost, but not quite. Unless there has been a huge, unreported earthquake that moved the airport 1 mile north of its previous location  
 
ZaphodB
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting LX138 (Reply 29):
An ex-SOU service is complete and utter madness. The percentage of people using the existing LCY-JFK service that originate or finish within the SOU catchment area is probably 0.0001% percent.

Madness ... quite possibly but the catchment area is bigger than you think. I used to live in the dead center of West Sussex and chose to use SOU if there was a conveniently timed direct flight in preference to LGW ... and in fact by car it did not take much longer to get there ... 1hr vs 45 minutes albeit there weren't any speed cameras on the A27/M27 back then so after Chichester you could really fly   . I avoided LHR (and thus T3/ T4 and the M25) whenever possible.
 
LX138
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting ZaphodB (Reply 31):
quite possibly but the catchment area is bigger than you think. I used to live in the dead center of West Sussex and chose to use SOU if there was a conveniently timed direct flight in preference to LGW ... and in fact by car it did not take much longer to get there ... 1hr vs 45 minutes albeit there weren't any speed cameras on the A27/M27 back then so after Chichester you could really fly

The catchment area is big for the markets the consumers in the region demand. This isn't an A318 service to the middle east!!!

It is: Flybe to JER, EDI etc, etc.!
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:21 pm

Quoting ZaphodB (Reply 30):
Almost, but not quite. Unless there has been a huge, unreported earthquake that moved the airport 1 mile north of its previous location

Actually it's in both Sussex and Surrey, no need for earthquakes.
 
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:54 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 33):

which part is in Surrey? - the paint on the north side of the north boundary fence?

[Edited 2012-08-01 17:56:34]
 
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:50 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 28):
What is wrong with SOU-FRA-XXX, SOU-AMS-XXX or SOU-CDG-XXX?

Well as usual the discussion seems to have warped considerably from my original premise of a one-stop-service to 'places like SYD' or places not served yet by LHR which currently are quite considerable.

Just as you argue that LHR is too close to SOU that argument also works in reverse regards catchment areas. Why go to Paris to get to somewhere in China when you could do it from a nice quiet (relatively) airport like SOU on a virtual private jet and then an airline like QR.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 28):
And SOU-DOH is not short, it's a mid-haul 7 hour flight.

No different to JFK-LCY.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 28):
The clue is what the 'L' stands for in LGW...

Southampton Airport is served by a dedicated mainline railway station, Southampton Airport Parkway, on the South Western Main Line from London Waterloo (just 66 minutes away) and Winchester to Southampton, Bournemouth, Poole, Dorchester and Weymouth with a fast and frequent service to those places.

*** The station is conveniently located just a 60 second walk from the terminal (one of the closest airport links across Europe).***

The airport is also located close to the junction between the M3 motorway and M27 motorway, giving easy road access to London, Southampton, Winchester, Bournemouth, Portsmouth and places between.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 28):
Same goes for SOU. Why bother operating a premium only service when the SOU/South/South East market is in their pocket anyway?

In an easterly direction ?

[Edited 2012-08-01 23:53:56]
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Eljonno
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:31 am

Quoting ZaphodB (Reply 30):
Almost, but not quite. Unless there has been a huge, unreported earthquake that moved the airport 1 mile north of its previous location
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 33):
Actually it's in both Sussex and Surrey, no need for earthquakes

It used to be in Surrey (AFAIK)....then they moved the county boundaries, about twenty years ago I believe, so now it's in West Sussex.
 
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:24 am

All premium services don't have the best track record ever, you need a really solid and dependable market to ensure their continued viability. Does SOU provide that?

Remember the transatlantic business class carriers, MaxJet and EOS from STN and Silverjet from LTN. BA's OpenSkies also failed in some markets, and services by the likes of Privatair on behalf of LX/KL have also been quietly dropped.

Transport links are all well and good, for example STN is only 45 minutes away from the financial hub of the City via Liverpool Street Station, but that doesn't mean it can cater for that market and make a profit.

My biggest problem with the SOU-DOH idea is why would BA want to serve that? Fine, it provides onward connections via DOH on QR, but even if they were to be in the same alliance, doesn't mean that BA would want to feed them in such a way. Remember they've got to sustain and make a profit on what is effectively a 32-seater private jet. BD went down the route of feeding others at LHR and look how that has turned out.

Another example is LH and SQ, which are both the same alliance, but it seems they are still think of each other as rivals.
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:29 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 35):
Well as usual the discussion seems to have warped considerably from my original premise of a one-stop-service to 'places like SYD' or places not served yet by LHR which currently are quite considerable.

Refining connections to 'places like SYD' reduces the case for such a service even more. It's entirely relevant to ask why other airlines, with even greater feed potential, are not offering hub connections out of SOU when you seem to think that a M/E dedicated premium service would work four times a day...

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 35):
Just as you argue that LHR is too close to SOU that argument also works in reverse regards catchment areas.

Err, no, it doesn't. SOU's level of service cannot be compared to that of LHR, there is no comparison.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 35):
Why go to Paris to get to somewhere in China when you could do it from a nice quiet (relatively) airport like SOU on a virtual private jet and then an airline like QR.

What do you mean 'why go to Paris'? The alternative is a short-ish drive and then a direct flight from LGW or LHR. Even if you could travel via CDG, that would be quicker than routing via a ME hub. Most passengers, premium or otherwise, really don't give two hoots what they fly on so long as it offers comfort, and that depends mostly on the soft product and FF program.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 35):
No different to JFK-LCY.

It is entirely different. I really don't think I need to explain why again.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 35):
Southampton Airport is served by a dedicated mainline railway station, Southampton Airport Parkway, on the South Western Main Line from London Waterloo (just 66 minutes away)
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 35):
The airport is also located close to the junction between the M3 motorway and M27 motorway, giving easy road access to London, Southampton, Winchester, Bournemouth, Portsmouth and places between.

So you are suggesting premium pax from London will want to use SOU for an all premium flight to the ME because it's quiet and easy, even though they will have to travel more than an hour out of London to reach the airport. Seriously, this is one of the craziest ideas I have ever heard.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 35):
In an easterly direction ?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but I presume you're referring to flights going that way. In which case the answer is yes, you have dozens and dozens of airlines offering one stop connections from LHR and LGW, most with excellent premium products.


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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:37 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 38):
Err, no, it doesn't. SOU's level of service cannot be compared to that of LHR, there is no comparison.

When considering a 'hub' with the potential of DOH the 'spoke' does not have to be the busiest international airport in the world.

Far from it.

It could however be an airport like SOU which is located in the south east of England with some of the best ground transport links in Europe.
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:50 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 39):
It could however be an airport like SOU which is located in the south east of England with some of the best ground transport links in Europe.

At the end of the day, you can command higher fares from LON than SOU. LON is also a far bigger catchment area than SOU.
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:01 am

Quoting LX138 (Reply 40):
At the end of the day, you can command higher fares from LON than SOU. LON is also a far bigger catchment area than SOU.

No doubt but could there be a market for such a relatively luxurious (prem config small jet), hassle free and hub free departure from the UK connecting to the hub of one of the worlds few 5* airlines.

Could be an option in the future that certain types would be willing to pay a premium for as an 'alternative only' to LHR.

Look, at the end of the day it was just an idea I found interesting given the middle eastern change of circumstance ref alliances and cooperation. (EK/QF etc)
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BestWestern
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:06 am

This thread started off as a discussion on the benefits of one world alliance on a middle east carrier, and a potential BA link up from London City, and now has become, as many of the OP's threads do, a discussion about something totally different.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 39):
SOU which is located in the south east of England with some of the best ground transport links in Europe.

Southampton best transportation links in Europe because of its dual-track train station? I love the airport, and have worked with the management team there many times, but best ground transportation links is going too far. Gatwick has excellent ground transportation, as does Heathrow, Birmingham, never mind Frankfurt.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 39):
When considering a 'hub' with the potential of DOH the 'spoke' does not have to be the busiest international airport in the world.

That would then be operated by a QR aircraft. Why would BA operate a spoke to alliance hub service?

SOU does not have the J traffic that would make an A318 in all J config work operating to Qatar. The airport today probably has close to zero Business class seats. Once a connection appears, yield drops dramatically, except to offline destinations. However, there ain't much J demand from SOU to CCU.
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:22 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 39):
When considering a 'hub' with the potential of DOH the 'spoke' does not have to be the busiest international airport in the world.

If SOU had a 3,000m runway then I would agree it could potentially one day support an A332/787 etc... to the ME. But talking about all premium services is a totally different scenario, it really does have to be one of the busiest airports in the world to warrant such a flight.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 39):
It could however be an airport like SOU which is located in the south east of England with some of the best ground transport links in Europe.

I would say 'average'. A motorway link and railway station really isn't anything special these days.


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mikey72
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:55 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 42):
SOU does not have the J traffic that would make an A318 in all J config work operating to Qatar. The airport today probably has close to zero Business class seats. Once a connection appears, yield drops dramatically, except to offline destinations. However, there ain't much J demand from SOU to CCU.

How can an airport that is 66 minutes away from LHR not have any J demand ?

That's like saying there isn't much J demand from Hounslow to Los Angeles.

This isn't about Southampton.

Say it was EK joining Oneworld.

DXB is arguably now a global mega hub built from the ultimate hub and spoke system of EK.

Could you fill a 32 seat premium configured A318 daily from SOU (given it's geographical attributes and links) with passengers connecting in mega hub DXB ?

With the right marketing and advertising of course you could.

However, you tell me that it wouldn't make any money and we'll quit the discussion.

(which I grant you i'm starting to believe it wouldn't....ooops)

[Edited 2012-08-03 05:02:19]
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 44):
How can an airport that is 66 minutes away from LHR not have any J demand ?

That's like saying there isn't much J demand from Hounslow to Los Angeles.

This isn't about Southampton.

Seriously? The huge demand for premium travel is mostly generated by the Greater London area. You evidently have no idea just how large a passenger base you need in order to fill one daily premium service, let alone four. Your argument relies on the incredible notion that premium passengers will drive past LHR and continue another one to one and a half hours to take a flight from SOU. Because apparently that's 'easier'.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 44):
Could you fill a 32 seat premium configured A318 daily from SOU (given it's geographical attributes and links) with passengers connecting in mega hub DXB ?

Filling a plane is the easy part, making the figures add up is what counts. Massive overheads and enormous trip costs for 64 pax a day, it's just not going to happen - the premium any airline would need to charge in order to make such a service work would be huge.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 44):
With the right marketing and advertising of course you could.

Which, in the real world, translates to 'the right fares'. See above.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 44):
However, you tell me that it wouldn't make any money and we'll quit the discussion.

Because it wouldn't. There's no avoiding the issue, such a service would be a financial sink hole of no benefit to any airline.

There's having an idea, then there's pushing a dead duck.


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bill142
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:41 pm

Why would anyone want to start a long haul route at an airport that's 50 miles away from one they're already flying to? The investment involved probably outweighs the benefit. One reason the LCY service works for BA is it's location near Canary Wharf and all the investment bankers that feed it. Somehow I don't think the south coast of England has enough high yielding passengers to feed a service to anywhere they can't already get from London.
 
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 35):
Just as you argue that LHR is too close to SOU that argument also works in reverse regards catchment areas. Why go to Paris to get to somewhere in China when you could do it from a nice quiet (relatively) airport like SOU on a virtual private jet and then an airline like QR.

Why wouldn't I do this? Because I could fly BA nonstop LHR-PEK. I don't know many (if any) people who would fly SOU-DOH-PEK, especially when LHR has all of the premium facilities, lounges, etc.

If I were a premium passenger staying in the city of London, trying to go somewhere in the Middle East/Asia/Oceania regions, there is absolutely no benefit to me driving 1.5 hours to SOU so that I can connect in DOH to my final destination, when I could have just flown out of LHR, the more convenient airport, making full use of the premium facilities there, and without having to make a connection.
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BestWestern
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 44):
How can an airport that is 66 minutes away from LHR not have any J demand ?

Eh..... Luton? Stansted?

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 44):
That's like saying there isn't much J demand from Hounslow to Los Angeles.

Why?

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 44):
Could you fill a 32 seat premium configured A318 daily from SOU (given it's geographical attributes and links) with passengers connecting in mega hub DXB ?

Yes, but not profitably. thats why theres only very few routes like it, flown by privatair - and with o&d demand, like AMS IAH LCY JFK FRA Pune, etc....

SOU DOH is not one of these.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 44):

However, you tell me that it wouldn't make any money and we'll quit the discussion.

Great idea.
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Viscount724
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RE: BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?

Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:49 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 48):
Yes, but not profitably. thats why theres only very few routes like it, flown by privatair - and with o&d demand, like AMS IAH LCY JFK FRA Pune, etc....

There are no longer any PrivatAir-operated transatlantic routes. The last two were AMS-IAH operated for KLM and ZRH-EWR operated for LX. AMS-HOU was dropped last year and ZRH-EWR was taken over last March by LX widebodies.

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