DFWHeavy
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AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:02 pm

Per AA's facebook page, they have added another 3 77W's to the order books.

Way to go AA!
Christopher W Slovacek
 
DFWHeavy
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:05 pm

With these 3 new orders, how many total orders for the 77W does that take AA to?
Christopher W Slovacek
 
seatback
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:19 pm

I'm hoping we'll see some new routes being announced instead of added capacity on current routes (snore!).
 
AeroWesty
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:22 pm

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 1):
With these 3 new orders, how many total orders for the 77W does that take AA to?

13.
International Homo of Mystery
 
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American 767
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:28 pm

Are the 3 additional orders added to all the 777s they previously had on order (don't they still have a few more 200s on order), or they are replacing 3 of the 200s still to be delivered?
Ben Soriano
 
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Stitch
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting American 767 (Reply 4):
Are the 3 additional orders added to all the 777s they previously had on order (don't they still have a few more 200s on order), or they are replacing 3 of the 200s still to be delivered?

They exercised two options and converted one 777-200ER order per http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/ne...airlines-exercises-options-on.html
 
divemaster08
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:39 pm

Sounds like a good move, increase the 77Ws fleet to make sure that the high end routes get the new products, and move some of the 772s over to some B763 routes to free them up for other routes to replace maybe some 757s
My dream, is to fly, over the rainbow, so high!
 
callsignpa
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:47 pm

Seems like chapter 11 is a nonstop spending spree...new planes, interiors, new products etc.
Is it easier getting loans while in chapter 11?
 
Someone83
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting American 767 (Reply 4):

Are the 3 additional orders added to all the 777s they previously had on order (don't they still have a few more 200s on order), or they are replacing 3 of the 200s still to be delivered?

Two are new orders from their options, while one is an old -200ER order converted

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):

13.

Article says commited to 18, but is this including options or including old "mothballed" -200ER orders?

Quoting callsignpa (Reply 7):
Seems like chapter 11 is a nonstop spending spree...new planes, interiors, new products etc.
Is it easier getting loans while in chapter 11?

Fleet upgrade and renewable is an important aspect of coming out of Chapter 11 as a more solid company
 
flightsimer
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:55 pm

I wonder why they continue to book them as UFO even though they announce the orders themselves.
Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
 
AeroWesty
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 8):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):

13.

Article says commited to 18, but is this including options or including old "mothballed" -200ER orders?
Fleet Renewal Approach

"As part of American's fleet renewal efforts, in 2011, we announced orders for 10 Boeing 777-300ERs that are scheduled for delivery in 2012 through 2013."

10+3=13
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Flighty
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting callsignpa (Reply 7):
Seems like chapter 11 is a nonstop spending spree...new planes, interiors, new products etc.
Is it easier getting loans while in chapter 11?

There is also a motive for current mgmt to appear vigorous and action-oriented. Arguably, any press release from AA needs to be viewed through this to understand the meaning.
 
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Stitch
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:08 pm

Quoting callsignpa (Reply 7):
Seems like chapter 11 is a nonstop spending spree...new planes, interiors, new products etc.

You have to spend money to make money.   
 
flyfree727
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:13 pm

Quoting callsignpa (Reply 7):
Seems like chapter 11 is a nonstop spending spree...new planes, interiors, new products etc.
Is it easier getting loans while in chapter 11?

Will be paid for by employee concessions and passenger fees.

        
AA ORD
 
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DocLightning
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 8):
Fleet upgrade and renewable is an important aspect of coming out of Chapter 11 as a more solid company

Also, they don't actually pay anything more than a deposit until delivery, right?
-Doc Lightning-

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roseflyer
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:29 pm

The first of the 77Ws is about 3 months away. I think this will help AA’s bottom line. They will have a competitive product in the premium classes and this will help lower CASM as well. It takes money to earn money and fleet renewal has to be part of the strategy. AA has the worst hard product companywide of any US airline, so without investment, it’s hard to win back the travelers that will pay for the future of AA.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting seatback (Reply 2):
I'm hoping we'll see some new routes being announced instead of added capacity on current routes (snore!).

I doubt youll see 773s on new routes. the 77Ws will free up 772s for new routes or 77W free up 772s which free up 763s.
 
Someone83
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:09 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):


"As part of American's fleet renewal efforts, in 2011, we announced orders for 10 Boeing 777-300ERs that are scheduled for delivery in 2012 through 2013."

10+3=13

But where does this single 777 already announced as a 2012 orders come from? AFAIK this is not one of these 2+1?

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm

[Edited 2012-08-03 13:12:26]
 
milestones787
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:13 pm

When is AA scheduled to take delivery of new the six 77Es that they have on order?
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:19 pm

This demonstrates what is wrong with our bankruptcy laws in the.USA.
 
jmc1975
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:20 pm

Who does AA think they are fooling by saying they're offering a high-end product by introducing a 3+4+3 seating configuration on a 777? Are they anticipating a dumbing-down of the masses?
.......
 
seatback
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:51 pm

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 20):
Who does AA think they are fooling by saying they're offering a high-end product by introducing a 3+4+3 seating configuration on a 777? Are they anticipating a dumbing-down of the masses?

The high end product enhancements are for first and business class. Coach class is ECONOMY...meaning that people in these seats are typically price sensitive, which means they're choosing flights/airlines based on fares and not seat configurations.
 
KDAYflyer
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:55 pm

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 20):
Who does AA think they are fooling by saying they're offering a high-end product by introducing a 3+4+3 seating configuration on a 777? Are they anticipating a dumbing-down of the masses?

Other reputable carriers have the same configuaration and claim the same thing. Are thier masses dumbed down?
 
Someone83
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 19):
This demonstrates what is wrong with our bankruptcy laws in the.USA.


Or that they work as they should as they enables companies to turn around instead of being shut down.

Gernany recently apprved a similar type of bankruptcy law and more will probably follow
 
roseflyer
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting milestones787 (Reply 18):
When is AA scheduled to take delivery of new the six 77Es that they have on order?

AA is not scheduled to take delivery of any 772s, and I doubt they ever will. They will start getting the 77Ws in a few months and they will get them at about 1 per month, which is a relatively fast rate.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 20):
Who does AA think they are fooling by saying they're offering a high-end product by introducing a 3+4+3 seating configuration on a 777? Are they anticipating a dumbing-down of the masses?

AA tried to offer a high end economy product and failed miserably. AA tried MRTC and to offer a better economy product, yet no one would pay extra for it. The market dictates that economy passengers book on price. More seats, means lower CASM, which is what the market wants. It certainly is not a high end product, but most people prefer anything that lowers the price of the ticket.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
TLHFLA
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:58 pm

Is the 777-300 wider than the 777-200? Most 777-200's are 9 across, but it seems with the -300 10 across is the new standard.
Bill in ATL
 
BMI727
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:15 pm

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 19):
This demonstrates what is wrong with our bankruptcy laws in the.USA.

The entire point of Chapter 11 is to allow companies to retool and fix what's wrong with them, and for an airline, renewing the fleet can certainly be part of it. Companies have to be allowed to make changes and investments in bankruptcy because any company that doesn't will find themselves right back in bankruptcy.

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 22):
Other reputable carriers have the same configuaration and claim the same thing. Are thier masses dumbed down?

It's economy class, so it is going to be a cheap product. If you want more luxury and room, most airlines are more than happy to sell you premium economy of business class tickets. Economy- for God's sake people, it's right there in the name.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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Stitch
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:18 pm

Quoting TLHFLA (Reply 25):
Is the 777-300 wider than the 777-200? Most 777-200's are 9 across, but it seems with the -300 10 across is the new standard.

All 777s have the same cabin width. As Roseflyer noted, 10-abreast seating is more economical for the airline than 9-abreast, so more and more carriers are moving from 9 to 10.
 
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Polot
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting TLHFLA (Reply 25):
Is the 777-300 wider than the 777-200? Most 777-200's are 9 across, but it seems with the -300 10 across is the new standard.

They are both the same. 10 abreast has only recently been considered acceptable for your typical carrier, mostly due to the rise of EK and fuel prices. Since the -300ER has been the most popular variant for the past couple of years it makes sense that it appears more often in that 777 version versus the -200ER.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:27 pm

Is it possible that AA might launch LAX-SYD (or another Asian city)?

I know their first route is from LAX, but it seems a bit...wasteful...to deploy all of them to Europe.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
skyone
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:52 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 29):

Isn t it DFW-GRU?

What about southamerica in US winter and Europe in US summer?
 
roseflyer
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 29):

I know their first route is from LAX, but it seems a bit...wasteful...to deploy all of them to Europe.

GRU, EZE and LHR are AA's busiest routes, so it makes sense to fly their biggest plane on those routes. Why would they want to open up new routes with their largest plane? LAX-SYD on a 772ER is not the best and a 77W would be better, but AA already codeshares with QF and yields have fallen dramatically to SYD from LAX now that there are 4 carriers on the route.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
777STL
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:05 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 29):
Is it possible that AA might launch LAX-SYD (or another Asian city)?

Doubtful. LAX-SYD is a blood bath right now with DL, UA, Virgin and QF all serving it. An Asian city may be in the cards eventually, DFW-ICN and MIA-NRT have been strongly rumored.
PHX based
 
jfk777
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting milestones787 (Reply 18):
When is AA scheduled to take delivery of new the six 77Es that they have on order?

The options AA is excersizing for -200ER are converted to -300ER, the demand for the 777-200ER is very low now. BY launching the new 77W AA will have a very competitive J class product, if its good enough for Cathay and its 16 hour JFK to HKG flights it has to be good.
 
Viscount724
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:56 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Also, they don't actually pay anything more than a deposit until delivery, right?

Progress payments are normally made at various intervals between order and delivery.
 
Viscount724
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:00 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 22):
Other reputable carriers have the same configuaration and claim the same thing. Are thier masses dumbed down?

It's economy class, so it is going to be a cheap product. If you want more luxury and room, most airlines are more than happy to sell you premium economy of business class tickets. Economy- for God's sake people, it's right there in the name.

BA has several premium products but their economy class product, including on newly-delivered 77Ws, is still 9-abreast. Why fly a 10-abreast 777 when there are many more comfortable options?
 
flyfree727
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 24):
AA is not scheduled to take delivery of any 772s, and I doubt they ever will. They will start getting the 77Ws in a few months and they will get them at about 1 per month, which is a relatively fast rate.

Someone needs to tell AA this, as this was the email we received today..

TODAY AMERICAN ANNOUNCED IS HAS EXERCISED OPTIONS FOR TWO
...ADDITIONAL 777-300ER¥S AND UPGRADED ONE 777-200ER TO A
777-300ER. WITH THIS ANNOUNCEMENT, AMERICAN NOW HAS
COMMITMENTS ON A TOTAL OF 18 777¥S. THIS INCLUDES 13 777-300ER
AND FIVE 777-200ER.

AA ORD
 
Concordski
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:01 am

Hoping one of these birds ends up on a NRT route. Then I'd actually consider flying an American carrier instead of only ANA and JAL in J.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:23 am

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 36):
AMERICAN NOW HAS
COMMITMENTS ON A TOTAL OF 18 777¥S. THIS INCLUDES 13 777-300ER
AND FIVE 777-200ER.

Could AA convert the commitments to the 772s into 77Ws, like it has on other 772s on the order books?
International Homo of Mystery
 
solarflyer22
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting callsignpa (Reply 7):

Seems like chapter 11 is a nonstop spending spree...new planes, interiors, new products etc.
Is it easier getting loans while in chapter 11?

I can see why it looks that way and I kind of agree. I think this is partly due to the fact that in Chapt 11 they have more leeway with the unions ironically.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
You have to spend money to make money.   

True, I really think part of the reason AA is in Chapt 11 is the fact they did not upgrade their fleets fast enough. Kept the MD80s too long

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 15):

The first of the 77Ws is about 3 months away. I think this will help AA’s bottom line. They will have a competitive product in the premium classes and this will help lower CASM as well

You know its so clear to me based on Emirates success with the 77W and their comments on the plane that its an essential part of an international fleet.
 
cmf
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:55 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 24):
AA tried to offer a high end economy product and failed miserably. AA tried MRTC and to offer a better economy product, yet no one would pay extra for it. The market dictates that economy passengers book on price. More seats, means lower CASM, which is what the market wants. It certainly is not a high end product, but most people prefer anything that lowers the price of the ticket.

This oversimplification has become a selffulfilling prophecy but reality is a lot more complicated. Have a look at how JetBlue is adding even more.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
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cosyr
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:19 am

Did I miss an announcement that they lost money in the 2nd quarter? Or, is this the first aircraft order by AMR in a while that doesn't come on the day of a quarterly loss announcement?!

But seriously, I don't know what their tactic is for these tiny orders every quarter. It seems like they find some change in their couch and have to spend it. I hope this leads to a healthy and modern American!
 
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Stitch
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:58 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38):
Could AA convert the commitments to the 772s into 77Ws, like it has on other 772s on the order books?

Yes and they have done so.
 
sstsomeday
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:58 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
It's economy class, so it is going to be a cheap product. If you want more luxury and room, most airlines are more than happy to sell you premium economy of business class tickets. Economy- for God's sake people, it's right there in the name.

It is called economy... but not torture.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
BA has several premium products but their economy class product, including on newly-delivered 77Ws, is still 9-abreast. Why fly a 10-abreast 777 when there are many more comfortable options?

My brother-in-law recently asked my advice on overseas flights for his family, and I carefully directed him away from 10 abreast 777s. I fly economy and so does he. I'm hoping that the last holdout airlines that only have 9 abreast seating in the type will benefit from the relative comfort they offer, by attracting the passengers.

I look at blogs and trip reports and over and over I see passengers very angry about the grueling trip they have just had on (usually AF) 10 abreast 777s. And they swear they will never fly that airline/type again. And they always say that they were very surprised to find out how crammed and uncomfortable the A/C was. They don't say they expected this kind of discomfort just because they bought an economy ticket. One might expect such treatment on a discount airline such as Air Transat.

I understand that passengers buy on price, but to a point. I won't fly on Ryanair, for example.

I wonder if there is a breaking point upon which regulatory bodies will disallow any further cramming. Issues of emergency evacuation, deep vein thrombosis, etc., are real ones.

Every time I think airlines have hit bottom, they manage to surprise me. I wish I could stop hoping for something better.
I come in peace
 
BMI727
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:02 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
Why fly a 10-abreast 777 when there are many more comfortable options?

Cost.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 43):
It is called economy... but not torture.

Then feel free to fly someone else, and quite possibly pay more for the privilege. Most people don't waste time complaining that ultra cheap toilet paper is torture, they just buy better stuff.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
kaitak744
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:12 am

Honestly, stop complaining about 3-4-3 on a 777. It is not that bad. AA can carry more people, and make more money. And I am perfectly fine with that. From an airline's point of view, if you don't have 3-4-3 on your 777, you better have some damn good convincing product (SQ for example) to get yields high enough to justify not doing 3-4-3.

FYI, first AA 777-300ER routes announced so far:
DFW-GRU
JFK-GRU
DFW-LHR
JFK-LHR
LAX-LHR
 
sstsomeday
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:19 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Then feel free to fly someone else, and quite possibly pay more for the privilege. Most people don't waste time complaining that ultra cheap toilet paper is torture, they just buy better stuff.

It's my feeling, 1st of all, that pointing out poor service is not the fault of the "complainer." And I would not frame the word "complaining" as necessarily a derogatory act, akin to "whining."

Secondly, speaking in general terms, I don't believe that the free market system works when it's absolutely free. That risks a like-it-or-leave-it environment that is undesirable, such as the attitude that you seem to take in this instance. Ultimately the free market should serve people, not the free market. That's why I think regulators should set some sort of common denominator standard so that flying does not become 8 hours or more of "torture," (which it unfortunately seems to have done already.)

I, as an individual, cannot influence the price of economy tickets nor can I, as an individual, prescribe the size of seats or the amount of pitch that an airline provides.

SO - in deference to the thread, I find that the AA acquisition of 777s is not an improvement to service, nor good news. And yes, I believe it's legitimate to "complain."
I come in peace
 
BMI727
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:33 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 46):
It's my feeling, 1st of all, that pointing out poor service is not the fault of the "complainer."

Ten seats across is not poor service. There's nothing illegal or even unethical about it. It's a product you don't like, so be it. I think Wendy's hamburgers suck and as a result I don't buy them. There isn't anyone putting a gun to your head or mine when booking flights.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 46):
That risks a like-it-or-leave-it environment that is undesirable, such as the attitude that you seem to take in this instance.

First, it's worth pointing out that the majority of customers like it, hence it's existence in the first place. At the very least, they don't dislike it more than they like lower prices.

Secondly, there's also premium economy now. Rather than forcing some people to pay more than they want and giving some people less room than they want (or in the case of MRTC, everyone pays more than they want) both groups can now get what they want. You won't even need to book a different airline. Toyota selling a buttload of Corollas does not in any way inhibit the ability of you, me, or anyone else to go buy a Lexus.

Third, I'm more than happy to leave it. When it comes to intercontinental travel, if I can't afford to go in business class I can't afford to go.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 46):
I, as an individual, cannot influence the price of economy tickets nor can I, as an individual, prescribe the size of seats or the amount of pitch that an airline provides

You can book an airline with a price you like better or find an airline with seats sufficient for you. Or if you're just not willing to pay what it costs, you have a problem and you're not going anywhere.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 46):
SO - in deference to the thread, I find that the AA acquisition of 777s is not an improvement to service, nor good news. And yes, I believe it's legitimate to "complain."

Good thing there's not a ton of other airlines out there willing to take your money. Oh wait...
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
airsmiles
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:46 am

I agree with SSTsomeday. What happens when someone (perhaps Michael O'Leary?) comes up with an 11 abreast configuration or 10 abreast/reduced seat pitch for long-haul routes? Would this be acceptable in the name of lowering the ticket price?

There must be a limit to how much the airlines can reduce space per economy passenger in the name of decent standards of comfort and safety even. You can bet that the airlines won't care if they can offer a more competitive fare, so it has to be the regulator who protects the passenger.

What are the current minimum space requirements for an economy long-haul flight? As a passenger I don't even know that information, nor is it commonly publicised anywhere.
 
crAAzy
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RE: AA Adds 3 More 77W's

Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:45 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
This oversimplification has become a selffulfilling prophecy but reality is a lot more complicated. Have a look at how JetBlue is adding even more.

JetBlue is adding more leg room to seats on one type of aircraft only (EBM-190) where it offers more space in row 1 (a bulkhead row) and one exit row - both of which had more to do with proper aircraft seating configuration rather than offering a special product. Additionally, the addition of more space seats are to accommodate the new elite status it's adding to their program.

This really is apples and oranges when comparing elite statuses on AA and the MRTC product they had.