dtwpilot225
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Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:42 am

Looking at the situation, the writing may be on the wall for this airline. When you take the 66 crj 200's that skywest will be taking out of service and add them to the 13 that comair had left that will be gone, then add the 140 that pinnacle has and subtract them all from dci, you have something very close to the 125 left that delta wants going forward. That would leave pinnacle with 41 900's. There will be 70 more 900's up for delivery after delta receives the 717's but there is no gaurantee that pinnacle gets those airplanes. If they don't I could see their 41 900's being shifted to Skywest and GoJet. Comair has a long history but Pinnacle also has been around for more than 20 years. There are employees that have been here since day one. Then you factor in the excellent 85 year history of Mesaba and you have a sad situation. Delta has gone on a warpath and they are fixing their own mistakes with peoples jobs. It may be necessary and it may be business but looking at comair going down, i see pinnacle not around past 2015
 
bhmdiversion
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:55 am

I believe that Delta has made up their mind on what to do to Pinnacle. Nobody thought that Comair would ever be sold, let alone, closed for good. Too many good folks over there, hopefully they all will find their way to bigger and better careers.

As for Pinnacle, I have heard that the 16 900's will be gone by March (from what I am hearing) and I have also heard that OO/EV is looking to get approval from the FAA to do the BZE/CZM flights that Pinnacle was doing out of ATL.

I have also heard that since the Mesaba leadership is slowly taking over MEM, there are rumors going around that if Pinnacle agrees to move to MSP and take over the old Mesaba offices, that Pinnacle will be the front runners for the divvied up aircraft and they will continue to operate?

Of course, this is what I am hearing as rumors.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:07 am

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 1):
Nobody thought that Comair would ever be sold, let alone, closed for good

Actually I think most of us knew OH was going away somehow, it just took a while. Hopefully Pinnacle has a better fate... maybe there is an advantage to having at least 1 wholly owned regional. Pinnacle is the last one, right??
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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crj900lr
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:08 am

I doubt it will just be Comair that goes under. I believe you will see a few more regionals follow that same path in the next few years. Its time for them to upgrade equipment or close the doors.
 
PHX787
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:09 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
Actually I think most of us knew OH was going away somehow, it just took a while. Hopefully Pinnacle has a better fate... maybe there is an advantage to having at least 1 wholly owned regional. Pinnacle is the last one, right??

The rumors ebbed away a bit after the CVG hub grew to its peak in 2005 but then I guess they began to return right when the cuts began
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syncmaster
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:15 am

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Thread starter):
Delta has gone on a warpath and they are fixing their own mistakes with peoples jobs.

What other solution was there? Don't get me wrong I'm not for them laying off people but in this environment there doesn't appear to have been many other options.

I think Pinnacle has the most to lose at this point, SkyWest/ExpressJet will reach an agreement with Delta in the end on changing the fleet to the larger RJ's, but Pinnacle has a lot riding on 50-seaters.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:33 am

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 3):
I believe you will see a few more regionals follow that same path in the next few years. Its time for them to upgrade equipment or close the doors.

The regionals can't go out and just upgrade their own equipment. They are bound by contracts with the mainline carriers and scope agreements. In some cases, they may not even own the aircraft they operate for the mainline carrier.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
usflyer msp
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:56 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
maybe there is an advantage to having at least 1 wholly owned regional. Pinnacle is the last one, right??

Pinnacle is not wholly owned by DL. DL is providing them financing during their BK but they are still an independent company. In fact, DL sold Mesaba (which was wholly owned) to Pinnacle which helped expedite their descent into bankruptcy since Pinnacle really couldn't afford it.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:57 am

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 1):
OO/EV is looking to get approval from the FAA to do the BZE/CZM flights that Pinnacle was doing out of ATL.

Shouldn't be too hard. Before 9E came to town, EV was flying CR7s to BZE and CZM. Back in the day, DL was sending CR2s to MTY on EV so won't be a huge deal. Personally, this wild experiment was not worth it. 9E's performance in Atlanta over the past 4 years has been atrocious. Relative to the level of flying they've been doing, their on-time performance and rate of cancellations is not where it should be. I had a guy at OCC tell me one night that when ATL's in IROP, Pinnacle all but disapears. No communication from their scheduling department. No communication from flight OPS in MEM. No communication from the OPS people based on C Concourse. They just sort of cancel flights and DL won't find out about it until the flight drops from term.

I know ASA has always been the airline people love to hate but their a much easier company to deal with. At least in Atlanta.

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Thread starter):
Looking at the situation, the writing may be on the wall for this airline. When you take the 66 crj 200's that skywest will be taking out of service and add them to the 13 that comair had left that will be gone, then add the 140 that pinnacle has and subtract them all from dci, you have something very close to the 125 left that delta wants going forward. That would leave pinnacle with 41 900's. There will be 70 more 900's up for delivery after delta receives the 717's but there is no gaurantee that pinnacle gets those airplanes. If they don't I could see their 41 900's being shifted to Skywest and GoJet. Comair has a long history but Pinnacle also has been around for more than 20 years. There are employees that have been here since day one. Then you factor in the excellent 85 year history of Mesaba and you have a sad situation. Delta has gone on a warpath and they are fixing their own mistakes with peoples jobs. It may be necessary and it may be business but looking at comair going down, i see pinnacle not around past 2015

This is just me...

But what I think will happen is 9E's CR2 will be the bulk of the 50 seaters left in the fleet post 2014 and on. Why? Because they are pretty much the youngest in the entire DCI fleet and are in pretty good shape. Will 9E continue to operate ALL? No. What I think will happen is DL will divy up the 140 among the other operators leaving 9E with a respectable fleet of CR2s and CR9s. Let's not forget that post BK, they will be in a much better position financially. They're already shedding a lot of costs. They're getting out of the money loosing Q400 OPS. From what i've read, they've been upside down as far as operating costs for several years now and it only got worse over the past 18 months as they started to miss performance goals set by UA thus loosing out on bumps in their CPA reimbursements. It was the same thing with DL and the ATL based PQs. The PNCL ground handling is gone. We know they'll be going back to the pilots for more cuts. Who knows what will happen but it will all come down to who's willing to open up a base in MSP. That is no cheap endeavor. 9E is already there. Besides CP, OO is the largest DCI operator out of MSP so take that FWIW. EV has already been stepping up big time in DTW over the past year. To me, it looks like everything's going back to the olden days. EV will be big dawg (always really) in ATL, OO will always be SLC and maybe MSP alongside S5 and CP if they get their way, and DTW may get split down the middle between G7 and EV (along with S5 and CP). JFK/LGA will continue to be a conglomerate of everyone.
What gets measured gets done.
 
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crj900lr
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:04 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 7):
The regionals can't go out and just upgrade their own equipment. They are bound by contracts with the mainline carriers and scope agreements. In some cases, they may not even own the aircraft they operate for the mainline carrier.

I understand the contracts but any regional who is not looking at the future and is just looking at the present is gonna have issues. You must always try to improve your product, such as Skywest and Trans States are doing with the MRJ orders for example, and should never rely on what you currently have as that can be gone tomorrow. This game of musical planes that Delta is playing with their regional partners cant give anyone on the regional side any sense of job securityfor the long term. Its a shame that the regionals are at the mercy of the mainline carriers like they are.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:16 am

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 11):
Its a shame that the regionals are at the mercy of the mainline carriers like they are.

And that's no one's fault but...

FWIW, moving forward I think the smarter regionals will simply want control of their own assets. For example, EV owns all of their 700s. DL can't shuffle those around. The QX CR7s EV and OO picked up in 2010 are leased directly by SkyWest Inc. DL cannot move those around either. All of EV's 900s belong to Delta though. This however doesn't always work. Look at the sad state that 9E's in. The owed Royal Canadian close to $700M in note payments on the Q400s that they own. Not sure if that number included the 16 900s as well. But they had to return them and UA found a new home for them. DL's doing the same thing with the 900s. It was smart of them to have the assets as their own (note OO/EV and S5) but they did too much at once and severely underbid for flying just for the sake of growing.
What gets measured gets done.
 
dtwpilot225
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:36 am

The reason Pinnacle had to return both the Q400's and CRJ 900's is becuase they were tied to the same note. Thats how they got them so cheap. Delta is going to have its hands full though if they make announcements that pinnacle is going away. Pinnacle does 1000 flights a day for delta. The only way to shut them down is systematically doing it by small chunks at a time like they did comair. The pinnacle employees will see the writing on the wall if this happens though and performance will become even worse than it is now.
 
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par13del
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:56 am

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 11):
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 7):
The regionals can't go out and just upgrade their own equipment. They are bound by contracts with the mainline carriers and scope agreements. In some cases, they may not even own the aircraft they operate for the mainline carrier.

I understand the contracts but any regional who is not looking at the future and is just looking at the present is gonna have issues.

Someone was available to allow a mainline carrier to dictate terms when the business was being set up, those investors who were willing to enter into a true partnership were rejected by the legacies, so we and they have what we have.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 11):
You must always try to improve your product,

If it is your product to upgrade and improve.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 12):
Quoting crj900lr (Reply 11):
Its a shame that the regionals are at the mercy of the mainline carriers like they are.

And that's no one's fault but...

  
 
NWAESC
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:15 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 10):
I had a guy at OCC tell me one night that when ATL's in IROP, Pinnacle all but disapears. No communication from their scheduling department. No communication from flight OPS in MEM. No communication from the OPS people based on C Concourse. They just sort of cancel flights and DL won't find out about it until the flight drops from term.

^This^

I didn't used to be like that, btw...  
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Reply 11):

Like I said, I don't think they will go the way of Comair as explained in my post above. And they already know there will be layoffs because the announcement about the 900s moving off property was made months ago. It was suppose to be a 5 month transition starting in January but it seems like it will be much faster, like what UA's doing.
What gets measured gets done.
 
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JBo
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:57 pm

The fundamental difference between Comair and Pinnacle that we must all be aware of is that Pinnacle is an independent corporation whereas Comair was wholly owned by Delta.

Delta had the power to pull the plug on Comair because it was completely in charge of the company. Pinnacle is not wholly owned but is under Ch. 11 bankruptcy protection. I believe even under BK, Delta cannot completely pull Pinnacle's contracts, but we shall see what happens.

I think we will see a lot of the "dead weight" from the regional industry thin out in the near future. I would even predict a change in the business relationship between the regionals and the majors as the regional industry consolidates into a few large players over many small ones.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
DashTrash
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting JBo (Reply 15):
Pinnacle is not wholly owned but is under Ch. 11 bankruptcy protection.

Pinnacle has become the world's first wholly pwned regional with Delta providing the DIP financing.

Quoting JBo (Reply 15):
I believe even under BK, Delta cannot completely pull Pinnacle's contracts, but we shall see what happens.

Delta can do whatever they want with Pinnacle. Every decision made within Pinnacle is coming from DAL right now.
 
planemaker
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:46 pm

Not many people know that Comair was the N. American launch customer of the CRJ...

Quote:
As the North American launch carrier for the Bombardier Canadair Regional Jet (CRJ) aircraft in 1993 and the first regional airline to operate an all-jet fleet, Comair has consistently led the regional industry in operating and maintaining the CRJ 100/200, CRJ 700 and CRJ 900 series aircraft.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 17):

Big mistake on DALPA's part. As I've been told, there were provisions for the 200 to be flown by Delta mainline pilots. They didn't like the rates nor the expected pairings and essentially felt like the flying was below them. I've said it before and ill say it again. Mainline pilots have no one to blame but themselves.
What gets measured gets done.
 
mm320cap
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 18):

Typical RJ Anklebiter comment. Name your source if you are going to level an accusation like that
 
xdlx
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Reply 11):

Just think of this : " Pinnacle " AFTER THAT, all roads are downhill!
 
filejw
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 18):

Your correct in that they didn't want to fly the Crj but your reasons are wrong.That decision was made almost 20 years ago and the people in charge are long gone.Present day DAL pilots mostly believe all flying for DAL should be done by mainline and the recent TA is a first step in that direction.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting filejw (Reply 21):

Your correct in that they didn't want to fly the Crj but your reasons are wrong.

Great opening first sentence, but...

Quoting filejw (Reply 21):
.That decision was made almost 20 years ago and the people in charge are long gone

Is a poor answer, and...

Quoting filejw (Reply 21):
Present day DAL pilots mostly believe all flying for DAL should be done by mainline and the recent TA is a first step in that direction.

has no relatable context to what he said---other than that DALPA existed then, as it does now.

[Edited 2012-08-05 13:06:45]
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
OB1504
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 17):
Not many people know that Comair was the N. American launch customer of the CRJ...

Considering their eventual fate, a lot of good that did them.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:33 pm

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 19):
Typical RJ Anklebiter comment. Name your source if you are going to level an accusation like that

Umm..straight for mainline pilots that were flying back then and are still with DL today? Want a source? Mike Birmingham. Don't know who that is? Of course you don't.

Quoting filejw (Reply 21):
Your correct in that they didn't want to fly the Crj but your reasons are wrong.

That was the reason THEN. Did you even read my post all the way through.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 22):
has no relatable context to what he said---other than that DALPA existed then, as it does now.

Thank you!!
What gets measured gets done.
 
bhmdiversion
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 8):
Relative to the level of flying they've been doing, their on-time performance and rate of cancellations is not where it should be. I had a guy at OCC tell me one night that when ATL's in IROP, Pinnacle all but disapears. No communication from their scheduling department. No communication from flight OPS in MEM. No communication from the OPS people based on C Concourse. They just sort of cancel flights and DL won't find out about it until the flight drops from term.

The reason there is no communication from MEM during ATL IROPs is MEM was too afraid to send anyone to ATL to see what happened whenever there was an IROP...

Up until February, Pinnacle had 3 Hub Coordinators that would be able to run the entire operation; Dispatch paperwork issues (since ATL gate agents always screwed up Pinnacle paperwork in WorldFlight), Crew Scheduling, Tail Routing, DL OCC, Pinnacle SOC, etc., however, MEM didn't want to keep them around. They said that the HC's "ran too much of the operation, and never let Delta handle the mess..." This was a direct quote from a leader in MEM.

MEM was asked on a pretty much daily basis to come to ATL, meet the tower managers, Delta Management, PL's, ramp staff, Redcoats, etc. but MEM never wanted to be involved. MEM said it wasn't "their job to see what happens in ATL, since that was a Delta run airport".

MEM also thought that they knew how an operation since they knew how to run a "perfect" operation - MEM, I'm kidding of course - it's one of the easiest airports to run, since the flights are in a Bank system. They wanted to always say that ATL could be run like MEM.

Good luck on that one...

Sorry for my rant - these are my opinions and not of anyone else's.
 
Mir
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 18):
Big mistake on DALPA's part.

Not just DALPA, all the unions were on board with it at the time.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
mcdu
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 7):
In fact, DL sold Mesaba (which was wholly owned) to Pinnacle which helped expedite their descent into bankruptcy since Pinnacle really couldn't afford it.

Buy something you can't afford? And that is DL's fault? The regionals seem to always blame someone else for their troubles.

The hazards of being a outsourced supplier. Risk is a liability of the relationship. If you want to control your own fate run an independent airline and call your own shots. It worked so well for ACA/flyi
 
Mir
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:35 am

Quoting mcdu (Reply 27):
Buy something you can't afford? And that is DL's fault? The regionals seem to always blame someone else for their troubles.

Pinnacle's management did not do a good job at all - that's clear, and that's most of the reason they're in the state they're in. But you can't deny that the majors are actively encouraging the race to the bottom that is the regional airline industry.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
SNCNtry32
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:56 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 28):
Pinnacle's management did not do a good job at all - that's clear, and that's most of the reason they're in the state they're in. But you can't deny that the majors are actively encouraging the race to the bottom that is the regional airline industry.

Delta has been the number one cheer leader. Its depressing to think it was really never this way with Northwest. Who knows where Northwest would have been now had they not merged with Delta, but something tells me Northwest would still only have 3 regional partners to handle the flying... Not 9 or 10. I've lost count.
Long Live Memphis!
 
DashTrash
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:02 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
Not just DALPA, all the unions were on board with it at the time.

Not quite. USAir held the line on RJs until they got their ass handed to them in bankruptcy #1. Before that the RJ's (think F28s / F100s) were flown at mainline.
 
usflyer msp
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:07 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 30):
Not quite. USAir held the line on RJs until they got their ass handed to them in bankruptcy #1. Before that the RJ's (think F28s / F100s) were flown at mainline.

Mesa began operating CRJ's for US in 1997 which was well before US' first bankruptcy.
 
Mir
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:18 am

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 31):
Mesa began operating CRJ's for US in 1997 which was well before US' first bankruptcy.

And the same year that the F28s were retired.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:45 am

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 25):
Up until February, Pinnacle had 3 Hub Coordinators that would be able to run the entire operation; Dispatch paperwork issues (since ATL gate agents always screwed up Pinnacle paperwork in WorldFlight), Crew Scheduling, Tail Routing, DL OCC, Pinnacle SOC, etc., however, MEM didn't want to keep them around. They said that the HC's "ran too much of the operation, and never let Delta handle the mess..." This was a direct quote from a leader in MEM.

Interesting. I had no idea they got rid of the hub coordinators. I know of one personally. Only knew him by first name but a very nice guy and seemed to know his stuff. It really helped to have that liason.

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 25):
MEM was asked on a pretty much daily basis to come to ATL, meet the tower managers, Delta Management, PL's, ramp staff, Redcoats, etc. but MEM never wanted to be involved. MEM said it wasn't "their job to see what happens in ATL, since that was a Delta run airport".

This is a bit surprising. I'd tell you right now that ATL leadership would have loved the communication. At the OCC, the idea had even been flirted with to have someone from 9E in the C tower. DL coordinated this with EV some time last year. Now, there's an ASA rep in the ACC tower alongside the ACS ramp tower agents. The shift managers pretty much run the show (tower supervisors) along with the ramp PLs but it's always good to have that line of communication.

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 29):
Delta has been the number one cheer leader. Its depressing to think it was really never this way with Northwest. Who knows where Northwest would have been now had they not merged with Delta, but something tells me Northwest would still only have 3 regional partners to handle the flying... Not 9 or 10. I've lost count.

I'm not following here...what does one have to do with the other in this context, exactly? And if you look at it from a parent company standpoint, it's SkyWest Inc., Trans States, Republic, and Pinnacle.
What gets measured gets done.
 
SNCNtry32
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:29 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 33):
I'm not following here...what does one have to do with the other in this context, exactly? And if you look at it from a parent company standpoint, it's SkyWest Inc., Trans States, Republic, and Pinnacle.

Its beyond ridiculous how many 'regional' airlines Delta has contracted out. I really dont see why 8 or 9 is really necessary. This race to the bottom will implode on Delta someday, and Ill be sitting back with a bowl of popcorn laughing all the way down with them. These are peoples lives they are playing with here, that is what it really comes down to.
Long Live Memphis!
 
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b727fa
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:50 pm

Not for nothing...but there is no guarantee that the 76 seat a/c will all be -900's (please NO!)...I'd expect the 175 to gain some traction on this deal for CZ and S5.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
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b727fa
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:53 pm

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 34):
Its beyond ridiculous how many 'regional' airlines Delta has contracted out. I really dont see why 8 or 9 is really necessary.

Airways has 10 I think...
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
bhmdiversion
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:23 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 33):
Interesting. I had no idea they got rid of the hub coordinators. I know of one personally. Only knew him by first name but a very nice guy and seemed to know his stuff. It really helped to have that liason.Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 25):MEM was asked on a pretty much daily basis to come to ATL, meet the tower managers, Delta Management, PL's, ramp staff, Redcoats, etc. but MEM never wanted to be involved. MEM said it wasn't "their job to see what happens in ATL, since that was a Delta run airport".This is a bit surprising. I'd tell you right now that ATL leadership would have loved the communication. At the OCC, the idea had even been flirted with to have someone from 9E in the C tower. DL coordinated this with EV some time last year. Now, there's an ASA rep in the ACC tower alongside the ACS ramp tower agents. The shift managers pretty much run the show (tower supervisors) along with the ramp PLs but it's always good to have that line of communication.

When we started in ATL with the WorldFlight conversion, we had many a talks with the C Tower Managers and ATL trying to obtain a spot up there, but it was decided that we would be more mobile around the airport by being on every concourse. It was easier to receve a call from the Shift Manager letting us know an issue was going on, or just asking a question. Most of the times, we could have gone to the gate to solve all the problems.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:50 pm

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 34):
This race to the bottom will implode on Delta someday

I've been hearing this sorry line for years. Still waiting for the bottom to "fall out".

I'm not saying I agree with having so many partners but the whole NW/DL thing was silly to begin with. You were implying that some how, NW would have been better off because they had less partners than Delta does now. I'm not sure what sense that makes and that's pretty much what you said.

[Edited 2012-08-06 07:53:12]
What gets measured gets done.
 
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crj900lr
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:37 pm

Quoting B727FA (Reply 36):


Airways has 10 I think...


PSA Airlines

Mesa Airlines

SkyWest Airlines

Chautauqua Airlines

Republic Airlines

Trans States Airlines

Air Wisconsin

Piedmont Airlines

[Edited 2012-08-06 08:38:36]
 
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mayor
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 29):
Delta has been the number one cheer leader. Its depressing to think it was really never this way with Northwest. Who knows where Northwest would have been now had they not merged with Delta, but something tells me Northwest would still only have 3 regional partners to handle the flying... Not 9 or 10. I've lost count.
Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 34):

Its beyond ridiculous how many 'regional' airlines Delta has contracted out. I really dont see why 8 or 9 is really necessary.

DL is by no means the worst (if it is, indeed, a bad thing)......last count UA/CO had 12 regional partners. But I assume your bias against DL is coloring your opinion on this (along with your lack of research).
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
strfyr51
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:00 pm

United's New NOC has a United Airlines NOC manager coordinating all the regoinal flights, I'm not sure it matters who or what airline they're coordinating. They're all United flight numbers and United needs to be responsible for then I would think As would Delta for their flight numbers. ORDltashouldn't have Sold the ticket in the first plave! None of the Delta Connection Cerriers need be involved in the Delta Irrop Planning all they need to do is what they're told to do in the overall plan.
 
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enilria
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 7):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
maybe there is an advantage to having at least 1 wholly owned regional. Pinnacle is the last one, right??

Pinnacle is not wholly owned by DL. DL is providing them financing during their BK but they are still an independent company. In fact, DL sold Mesaba (which was wholly owned) to Pinnacle which helped expedite their descent into bankruptcy since Pinnacle really couldn't afford it.

By providing the Ch11 DIP for PNCL, DL effectively controls PNCL. They are essentially the only shareholder now. The only way Delta would lose control is if somebody outbid DL for exit DIP and bought out Delta. There is zero chance of that unless Delta encourages it. Nobody would put a nickel into PNCL without DL's blessing because PNCL doesn't exist without Delta. So, bottom line, Delta owns PNCL. I can't even think of how DL gets its CH11 DIP back. DL is going to have to provide exit DIP and then they will officially own PNCL...if they ever even exit Ch11 at all.

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Thread starter):
When you take the 66 crj 200's that skywest will be taking out of service and add them to the 13 that comair had left that will be gone, then add the 140 that pinnacle has and subtract them all from dci, you have something very close to the 125 left that delta wants going forward.

I agree with this math, and I've spoken about it before. I think the only hope for PNCL is that DL somehow convinced OO/EV to park all their CRJs which seems next to impossible.

I proposed before that I can imagine a scenario where the PNCL aircraft go to OO/EV and the existing aircraft there are parked.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 34):

By the numbers..

UAX - 10
USX - 8
DCI - 7
AA - 3
What gets measured gets done.
 
KDAYflyer
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 7):
Pinnacle is not wholly owned by DL. DL is providing them financing during their BK but they are still an independent company. In fact, DL sold Mesaba (which was wholly owned) to Pinnacle which helped expedite their descent into bankruptcy since Pinnacle really couldn't afford it.

I believe most of these regionals will go away. As the need tp control costs escalate, the mainline carriers will reduce freuencies and return as many of these routes as is possible to mainline flying at 100+ seats. There could be few places where a 70 seat aircraft operated by a regional where a 130 seater doesn't make any sense, but the regional airline heyday is quickly approaching the sunset IMO.

If it is cheaper and more profitible for a 140 seater to fly twice a day into a destination than to have 4 70 seat flights, then that is exactly what the airlines will do.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 44):
I believe most of these regionals will go away. As the need tp control costs escalate, the mainline carriers will reduce freuencies and return as many of these routes as is possible to mainline flying at 100+ seats. There could be few places where a 70 seat aircraft operated by a regional where a 130 seater doesn't make any sense, but the regional airline heyday is quickly approaching the sunset IMO.

There will ALWAYS be a need for regionals. Maybe not with th current model---as flawed and currupted as it has become thanks to newcomers skewing the model---but perhaps with a different, more streamlined model, where everyone wins.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
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b727fa
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:04 am

Thank you for the rundown...I was trying to pull it off the top of my head!
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:56 am

Regardless, 9E in its current form is CRITICAL to DL's operation. They are the largest CR9 operator and still a large fleet of relatively young CRJs. They are still the underpinning of the DTW and MSP hubs.

That being said, yes DL could play musical chairs with 9E's CRJs (which under almost every scenario will be a part of the 125 remaining in DL's fleet beyond the next 5 years). However its done, its got to be in an orderly fashion. 9E still operates over 1000 flights per day for Delta Connection.
 
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:48 am

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 47):
Regardless, 9E in its current form is CRITICAL to DL's operation. They are the largest CR9 operator and still a large fleet of relatively young CRJs. They are still the underpinning of the DTW and MSP hubs.

This is what folks are missing. 9E is HIGHLY entrenched in MSP, DTW, and to a lesser extent, JFK. Minus the 16 ATL based PQs, they still operate 41 CR9s. That's A LOT of capacity in regional speak. One CRJ can do up to 8 legs in one day. The ATL situation is pretty easy. ASA has always been the largest operator there and has resources in place. Stores, line MTC, F/A and Pilot base, Admin, etc. etc. This is all true however for 9E in DTW and MSP. It'll take quite some time for someone to just come in and be what they currently are in Minny and Detroit. Although 9E had these things in Atlanta, it was MUCH smaller.
What gets measured gets done.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?

Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:45 am

Quoting syncmaster (Reply 5):

I think Pinnacle has the most to lose at this point, SkyWest/ExpressJet will reach an agreement with Delta in the end on changing the fleet to the larger RJ's, but Pinnacle has a lot riding on 50-seaters.

maybe, maybe not. Delta still has 70 more big RJs to wave at someone. My guess is Republic gets a few(to get out of the ERJs) and the rest go to OO who dumps nearly all of its CRJ-2 fleet.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 10):
FWIW, moving forward I think the smarter regionals will simply want control of their own assets. For example,

it is smart, unless Delta says who wants to fly these 10 CR7s we own. We will always have the Gojets and Republics of the world that will say "pick me pick me." then OO must jump into it.

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 19):

Are you kidding me? hahaha I hope your not a Delta pilots talking about SCOPE. Hey maybe you guys should give DCI 70 more jets.  
Quoting Mir (Reply 26):

and has no figured out the main problem here? Take the D away from it.

Quoting Mir (Reply 28):

                    

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 33):

I'm not following here...what does one have to do with the other in this context, exactly? And if you look at it from a parent company standpoint, it's SkyWest Inc., Trans States, Republic, and Pinnacle.

it is a little bit sad that Delta has so many DCI carriers and is still adding them. What is even more funny is I think Delta has more RJ operators working for them vs aren't. (I can only think of RP, XJ, and MQ)

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 34):

eh. Sadly there will always be that one airline to under cut the other. Labor should shut this down, but we have proved over the last 15 years that humans in a group are about as worthless as anything there is.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 35):

unlikely. My guess is BBD will let Delta trade in CRJs for big RJs.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 38):
I've been hearing this sorry line for years.

Well... I'm not sure what more your looking for.....they are out what? 2 billion for Comair. Bam gone. up in smoke just that quick. How much did they under sell EV for? Delta has lost a butt load on DCI.

Quoting mayor (Reply 40):

DL is by no means the worst (if it is, indeed, a bad thing)......last count UA/CO had 12 regional partners. But I assume your bias against DL is coloring your opinion on this (along with your lack of research).

lol. woohhooo. They aren't the best.....but they arent the worst. Look at this hand while i slap you with the other.  

and Mayor, you don't think it would be much cheaper to just have say, OO as DCI vs the 7 carriers they have now? If yes, then aren't the higher cost a bad thing? If no....i'm speachless.
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