corinthians
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VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:58 pm

FAA's site says JFK is experiencing delays because of VIP movement. Flightaware shows a lot of planes circling around, but none landing. Who's in town today?
 
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Polot
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:07 pm

There is an Obama fundraiser in CT tonight apparently. He is probably flying into JFK.
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:09 pm

C-17 parked over by the triple hangars made me wonder who was going to screw up traffic at JFK today....is ObamaForce 1 here today (freakin' again)?

  
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 2):
C-17 parked over by the triple hangars made me wonder who was going to screw up traffic at JFK today....is ObamaForce 1 here today (freakin' again)?



There should be a law in made so a VIP (don't care who) cannot disrupt the commerce of theOEP airports, it's ridiculous to foul up a schedule or burn fuel while these type of delays. Find another airport to go visit.
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jfklganyc
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:40 pm

I love when guys get mad at Obama personally when this happens,

Same thing happened when Bush came to town. Same thing will happen if Romney is elected.

They have put a huge cone around the President post 9/11 and even before.

And yes, since they copter him around anyway, he should land at SWF
 
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:52 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 4):
I love when guys get mad at Obama personally when this happens,



For myself it's not about the person, it is about the people who make the decision on the airports to use and that is my entire problem with it. Wouldn't care if it was Reagan, Bush, Carter, Clinton, or any other VIP, just find a different place to park the airplane.
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spiritair97
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:05 pm

I wonder if they use JFK so that the public can see the Obama is in town and recognize his plane?
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 4):
I love when guys get mad at Obama personally when this happens,

Same thing happened when Bush came to town. Same thing will happen if Romney is elected.

While this is true, how many times did Bush fly into JFK (I honestly don't have a clue, I would love to see a statistical comparison actually)? I was speaking with a guy that has worked here since this airport was Idlewild Field, and he even said that the frequency that President Obama uses JFK in a year outweighs previous presidents for their full term...he's never seen it before. I never said I was mad at him, he's the President of the freakin' country after all. I am just amazed at how often he comes up here to one of the most delay-prone airports in this country on a fairly regular basis and only makes the situation worse LOL.

I have been on 3 flights so far in my time here at B6 where we were taxiing out for departure, came to a stop, engines shut down, "Folks, from the flight deck, sorry for the delay, the President is flying into JFK, we just need to stop until he gets into JFK on Air Force 1 and departs on Marine 1. We'll be on the move in a few minutes and will keep you posted accordingly." The complaints heard from the customers? They blamed the airline for the delay.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 4):
And yes, since they copter him around anyway, he should land at SWF

That's a pretty good idea. It's a hot shot right down the Hudson to get to NYC from SWF, and the airport is pretty quiet!
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STT757
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 4):
And yes, since they copter him around anyway, he should land at SWF
Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 7):
That's a pretty good idea. It's a hot shot right down the Hudson to get to NYC from SWF, and the airport is pretty quiet!

Actually to minimize disruptions, and for security, he should use Joint Base MDL. That's what President George W.Bush did when he visited the World Trade Center after 9/11, Pataki and Giulianni flew out to MDL on NYPD helicopters to meet him.

http://consolidatednews.photoshelter.../I00008rDm_7OSR5E/C0000N2ghetZQKw8

According to Great Circle Mapper WRI-JRB is the same exact distance as SWF-JRB.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=KWRI-KJRB

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=KSWF-KJRB&MS=wls&DU=mi
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jfklganyc
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:18 am

"While this is true, how many times did Bush fly into JFK (I honestly don't have a clue, I would love to see a statistical comparison actually)? I was speaking with a guy that has worked here since this airport was Idlewild Field, and he even said that the frequency that President Obama uses JFK in a year outweighs previous presidents for their full term...he's never seen it before. I never said I was mad at him, he's the President of the freakin' country after all. I am just amazed at how often he comes up here to one of the most delay-prone airports in this country on a fairly regular basis and only makes the situation worse LOL."

I dont know about that.

He was in office a good while before he even visited NYC.

However, it is the bluest of cities and hes a democrat. He also had ties here from college. Lived here for a while.

I am sure W landed in Texas cities quite a bit as President for the same reasons listed above

Point being, all Presidents land at Kennedy when visiting NYC. Always been that way...always been a pain in the neck...and they should change that
 
mmedford
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:32 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
Point being, all Presidents land at Kennedy when visiting NYC. Always been that way...always been a pain in the neck...and they should change that

JFK is the crown jewel of the NY Airports... we run a tight ship here.
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lxa333
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:36 am

Lol, there was just a report on nbc how a private small turboprop flew too close to the air force 1. Then they sent 2 f 15s chasing it down to land at a small airport I believe. Obama should stay out of nyc, causing way too much traffic everytime he comes near, commutes at rush hour can last over 2 hours instead of 30 minutes.
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FlyingSicilian
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:42 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
I am sure W landed in Texas cities quite a bit as President for the same reasons listed above

Normally for most Texas cities they try to land away from the big airports.
In Houston for example, they almost always use Ellington Field (Joint Reserve Base) EFD instead of IAH (or HOU)
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dragon-wings
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:02 am

Quoting lxa333 (Reply 11):
Lol, there was just a report on nbc how a private small turboprop flew too close to the air force 1. Then they sent 2 f 15s chasing it down to land at a small airport I believe. Obama should stay out of nyc, causing way too much traffic everytime he comes near, commutes at rush hour can last over 2 hours instead of 30 minutes.

The airport was Islip. I saw the 2 F-15's circling over my neighborhood a few times.
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plateman
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:00 pm

Yes, it was POTUS. He had fundraisers in Stamford and Westport, Conn so flew from Joint Base Andrews to JFK then helo'ed to Westport
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IAHFLYR
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:56 pm

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 12):
Normally for most Texas cities they try to land away from the big airports.
In Houston for example, they almost always use Ellington Field (Joint Reserve Base) EFD instead of IAH (or HOU)


I remember once that "W" did use IAH, forget why. President Obama has used IAH as well when he went to CLL for a Bush Library event. IAH is certainly closer to CLL rather than going to the much preferred EFD where most POTUS have landed in Houston.
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iahflyer
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:29 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 15):
I remember once that "W" did use IAH, forget why.

If I am not mistaken the EFD runways were being resurfaced making them inoperable.
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spiritair97
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:33 pm

On the subject of going to alternate airports, Bush flew the 757 into Republic (FRG) once when I was younger. My dad and I went over and saw it and it dwwarfed everything else in sight. When it took off at about 750 feet over my house, it shook the contents of my mom's china cabinet. It was awesome!
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting iahflyer (Reply 16):
If I am not mistaken the EFD runways were being resurfaced making them inoperable.


If you do have the correct timeline in mind, it wouldn't have made a difference because the B742 would have used the other runway since both main runways at EFD are 8,000'+, plenty of room. Furthermore, they wouldn't have been resurfacing both of them simultaneously, EFD had TXANG ops requiring the ability to launch the fighters.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 17):
it shook the contents of my mom's china cabinet. It was awesome!

Bet Mom didn't like that to much!!  
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max550
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:24 pm

Just speculating here but is it possible that the manpower and equipment they need to move the President and his entourage are located at or near JFK?
The amount of security around the President has increased exponentially since 9/11 so perhaps it makes more sense to have everything at JFK than to move it around to different airports in the Northeast depending on where the Pres is going. I'd imagine they already have a large presence there for diplomats and other VIP's. Plus they have the screening and customs facilities that may be necessary the people traveling with the president who aren't government/military.

I'd also speculate, based on what I know about the Secret Service, that the Pres has very little input in where they land. The Secret Service probably chooses the safest way to get him to his destination and go with that unless there's some reason to use other facilities.
 
PanHAM
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:35 pm

When GWB visited Germany they used FRA and shut the airport down for a couple of hours. Instead of using Wiesbaden Army Airfield nearby which has a runway long enough to take the 742, not sure about the strenght, but I have seen C-17s there. Even igf the runwaay surface could not take the 742, why not landing at Ramstein and shuttling around in a 757?

They shut down the roads around WI AAF anyhow as he went by motorcade from Wiesbaden to Mainz. Sztrange decisions made by the secret service and the people planning those visits.
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max550
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:00 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
When GWB visited Germany they used FRA and shut the airport down for a couple of hours. Instead of using Wiesbaden Army Airfield nearby which has a runway long enough to take the 742, not sure about the strenght, but I have seen C-17s there. Even igf the runwaay surface could not take the 742, why not landing at Ramstein and shuttling around in a 757?

I remember the same thing when I arrived in Madrid in 2001, the airport was closed for several hours when GWB arrived despite there being a military base with a 15000ft runway nearby.
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 17):
On the subject of going to alternate airports, Bush flew the 757 into Republic (FRG) once when I was younger. My dad and I went over and saw it and it dwwarfed everything else in sight. When it took off at about 750 feet over my house, it shook the contents of my mom's china cabinet. It was awesome!

I was working at FRG that day and while it was amazing to see a 757 land there (and MAN OH MAN did that thing come to a stop on RWY32 really quick!!!), I heard that the traffic issues in the surrounding areas was a nightmare including the closure of the Southern State Parkway, Rt. 110, Rt. 109, New Highway to name a few. It was still cool to see that plane come into FRG though.
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GolfBravoRomeo
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:11 pm

Did Clinton use EWR? I know Al Gore used EWR a couple of (or more) times and would motorcade into Manhattan via the Lincoln Tunnel, seemingly always timed to mess up my trip back to Hoboken.
 
Curiousflyer
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:16 pm

Obama was not the only one landing in JFK yesterday. I did too.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:48 pm

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 24):
Obama was not the only one landing in JFK yesterday. I did too.


How did your priority rate compared to the POTUS?   

Quoting GolfBravoRomeo (Reply 23):
Did Clinton use EWR?


Was it EWR or LAX where Clinton got the haircut?
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jporterfi
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 25):
Was it EWR or LAX where Clinton got the haircut?

LAX. http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/21/us...nton-while-the-price-took-off.html

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 4):
And yes, since they copter him around anyway, he should land at SWF

  

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 3):
There should be a law in made so a VIP (don't care who) cannot disrupt the commerce of theOEP airports, it's ridiculous to foul up a schedule or burn fuel while these type of delays. Find another airport to go visit.

I agree. The USAF is clearly not against using military airports in some cities (they use Buckley AFB instead of DEN when the president is visiting Denver), yet in others, they use big airports. Los Angeles is another example: I think the president should land at RIV and then use Marine 1 to get to a heliport closer to where he needs to go before switching to Cadillac 1 if necessary. It should would free up the additional traffic jams that the presidential motorcade causes by traveling all the way from LAX to downtown L.A.
 
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redzeppelin
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:03 pm

Why does he even need a fixed-wing aircraft to visit NYC? It's about 200 miles from the White House to Manhattan. Isn't that easily within the range of Marine One? I understand the entourage involved, but it seems like there should be an easier way to move them around for short trips.
 
mark2fly1034
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:05 pm

Why does Obama use ATL why not Dobbins AFB like 20 miles northwest. He was been here a few times now. Past presidents hardly ever landed in ATL (maybe once or twice). I flew into LAX and he was leaving just as we got in. Why must he use all the major US airports.
 
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Polot
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 27):
Why does he even need a fixed-wing aircraft to visit NYC? It's about 200 miles from the White House to Manhattan. Isn't that easily within the range of Marine One? I understand the entourage involved, but it seems like there should be an easier way to move them around for short trips.

That is assuming, of course, that he was flying from DC. He may have have been elsewhere in the country, especially now that it is campaign season.
 
spacecadet
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:25 pm

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 27):
Why does he even need a fixed-wing aircraft to visit NYC? It's about 200 miles from the White House to Manhattan. Isn't that easily within the range of Marine One? I understand the entourage involved, but it seems like there should be an easier way to move them around for short trips.

Your questions and answers contradict themselves.

Around 200 people travel with the president wherever he goes. What "easier" way is there to transport them over land than in one fixed-wing aircraft? Or did you mean easier for you? That's not really the president's concern...

Maybe they could commandeer an Amtrak train... (that's meant as kind of a joke, but I've actually read that the reason they don't use trains anymore is that they would need to clear the entire route of all security issues. Very difficult on a train line. On a road you can send the cops up ahead to block on-ramps and clear a path, but on a train line any kid can jump onto the tracks and all the train can do is stop, making it a sitting duck.)

Really the only alternative is a whole bunch of buses or limosines, which is neither quick, easy or efficient.

[Edited 2012-08-07 14:29:15]
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mozart
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:00 pm

It was Obama landing at JFK yesterday. I confirm because I have i) seen his plane land on 31R and ii) while waiting on the ground for 90 minutes onboard AF 006 "Super" I listened to Live ATC on my iPhone and so could hear what was going on. To be fair, the 90 minutes between touchdown and arriving at the gate were an unfortunate collection of first an early arrival, an occupied gate (Gate 8 by the Lufthansa A380 that hadn't left yet), then the need to taxi all along taxiway B up to Terminal 4 to let other planes behind us pass, then U-turn onto A, where we then stood whlst Ground was trying to untie the traffic knot that had been created by the VIP movement. Our plane had to go to T1 using 31R because the LH A380 was on A, so we couldn't use B. But 31R was blocked for Air Force 1 even some time after its landing. It was a complete mess. Looking out the window I could see how some taxiways had planes in opposite directions standing there and wainting to move. Oh well, quite an experience.

I have a related question: on ATC I heard the callsign "Rescue 1" and then also "Rescue 1 and company". Could that be for the helicopter(s) that were circling above JFK and that must be part of the president's transportation infrastructure?
 
BMI727
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:04 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 31):
I have a related question: on ATC I heard the callsign "Rescue 1" and then also "Rescue 1 and company".

I imagine that's probably the fire department.
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Mir
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:06 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
Quoting mozart (Reply 31):
I have a related question: on ATC I heard the callsign "Rescue 1" and then also "Rescue 1 and company".

I imagine that's probably the fire department.

Correct.

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prosa
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:17 am

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 22):
I was working at FRG that day and while it was amazing to see a 757 land there (and MAN OH MAN did that thing come to a stop on RWY32 really quick!!!), I heard that the traffic issues in the surrounding areas was a nightmare including the closure of the Southern State Parkway, Rt. 110, Rt. 109, New Highway to name a few.

Closing just one of those roads would be a nightmare. I cannot comprehend what it would be like to close all of them.

Which brings up a point: are roadways around an airport routinely closed when AF1 is operating?
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prosa
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:21 am

Why does he even need a fixed-wing aircraft to visit NYC? It's about 200 miles from the White House to Manhattan. Isn't that easily within the range of Marine One? I understand the entourage involved, but it seems like there should be an easier way to move them around for short trips.

Around 200 people travel with the president wherever he goes. What "easier" way is there to transport them over land than in one fixed-wing aircraft? Or did you mean easier for you? That's not really the president's concern...

Have Obama travel to New York on Marine One, thereby avoiding the disruption at JFK that AF1 causes, while having the rest of his entourage travel by aircraft to JFK.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
BMI727
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:34 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 35):
Have Obama travel to New York on Marine One, thereby avoiding the disruption at JFK that AF1 causes, while having the rest of his entourage travel by aircraft to JFK.

Helicopters are not as comfortable, not as safe, do not carry the same amount of communications equipment, and are a lot easier to shoot down than the VC-25.
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alphaomega
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
Even igf the runwaay surface could not take the 742, why not landing at Ramstein and shuttling around in a 757?

There is a reason POTUS travels 90% of the time in the 747 and not something else - in case it hits the fan and he needs to get airborne and coordinate a response. Pre-9/11 the E-4B would have been the chariot of choice in an emergency, but since 9/11 the AF1 747s have adapted to provide the pres with any tools to respond, address the nation, etc.

As stated before, the Secret Service is more concerned with security and not with how much of a disruption they cause at any airport. In the end, JFK is probably much better equipped to handle the 747s and entourage...now does it seem he always arrives at 5pm? Yes, but such is the way.

Don't get me wrong, I hope Obama's mail is forwarded to a new address next January, but at the end of the day he is the Chief and if another 9/11 or any other situation develops, he needs the best aircraft at his disposal. The 757s and G-5 (I remember Clinton flying on this a few times, and I think Bush took it into Afghanistan to keep it quiet) are not the best for emergency response.
 
BMI727
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:59 am

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 37):
(I remember Clinton flying on this a few times, and I think Bush took it into Afghanistan to keep it quiet)

They only filed the flightplan as a Gulfstream.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
mjgbtv
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 34):
are roadways around an airport routinely closed when AF1 is operating?

He was in BTV earlier this year and no roads were closed except for his limo route ~30 minutes before he got on the road.
 
mozart
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:13 am

I would imagine that one of the concerns of the secret service is to keep the president in the air for some time if that became necessary (e.g. change route and fly somewhere safe, or fly somewhere where something has happened). Does that mean that Air Force 1 always takes off with significantly more fuel than would otherwise be needed to get him to his planned destination? I suppose it cannot be refuelled in the air?
 
prosa
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:08 am

Quoting mozart (Reply 40):
I would imagine that one of the concerns of the secret service is to keep the president in the air for some time if that became necessary (e.g. change route and fly somewhere safe, or fly somewhere where something has happened). Does that mean that Air Force 1 always takes off with significantly more fuel than would otherwise be needed to get him to his planned destination? I suppose it cannot be refuelled in the air?

It has midair refueling capability.
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PanHAM
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RE: VIP Movement At JFK? 8/6/2012

Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:49 am

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 37):
There is a reason POTUS travels 90% of the time in the 747 and not something else - in case it hits the fan and he needs to get airborne and coordinate a response. Pre-9/11 the E-4B would ha

well, if you look at the location of Ramstein AB and the distance to Wiesbaden AAF (I drive that on the road in about 60 minutes) you will find that he would still travel 98% of the time on the 742.

The world situation during that time not travelling on the 742 is overseeable and a lpot of people on the ground would not have to waste hours sitting in their cars.

The 742 might even be able to land at the AAF.
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