KLSMB
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Air Canada YWG-MSP?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:01 pm

As a frequent flyer on the YWG-MSP route, I have been confused for years as to why the route is only served by one airline (Delta). With up to 5 daily flights, it's clear that many passengers on this route are flying to/from MSP to make connections there to other destinations with Delta/Skyteam. However, there are long-standing ties between Winnipeg and Minneapolis with people traveling between the two cities frequently and regularly. The fares that Delta is charging are ridiculous, but that's not surprising given their unchallenged monopoly on the route.

There has been whispers of Air Canada Express finally entering the YWG-MSP market for years, but so far there has been seemingly no interest in this route from the airline. With 164,123 people flying this route in 2011 and Delta Airlines upgrading equipment and frequencies on the route, there is clearly enough room for two airlines here. Winnipeg isn't an Air Canada hub so I'm guessing that is why Air Canada does not operate even a single flight to any destination in the USA from YWG, but I don't understand it. Why hand over so much traffic to Delta on this route?
 
ordbosewr
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RE: Air Canada YWG-MSP?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:12 pm

How many of those are connections to points beyond MSP? I suspect many.
I flew the route back a few years ago, but AC uses UA via ORD as the midwest connection point to the US. That route has gone AC to UA to AC to UA a few times.

AC would need it to be all O&D, which is a serious challenge.
 
KLSMB
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RE: Air Canada YWG-MSP?

Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:31 am

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 1):
AC would need it to be all O&D, which is a serious challenge.

Although a sizable portion of it would be O&D, it would give Air Canada pax traveling to/from MSP from cities in western Canada like YYC, YVR, YEG, YQR, YXE etc. a time saving option connecting to Minneapolis in Winnipeg as opposed to connecting at YYZ or ORD. Unless traffic on the route is 90% people making connections at MSP with Delta (which it is not), Air Canada should have no problem filling up a couple of daily CRJs on the route.
 
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eta unknown
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RE: Air Canada YWG-MSP?

Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:42 am

What you're probably seeing on DL is the leftovers AC doesn't want to carry via YYZ or ORD and AC are happy to let DL have it. If there was enough O&D between YWG and MSP (and AC definately have the stats) then no doubt there would be a dedicated service on a relatively short route- the fact there isn't means they're seeing a completely different picture.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Air Canada YWG-MSP?

Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:03 am

I can remember seeing DC-10's scheduled to be running this route at some point in the past with NW.
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briboy
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RE: Air Canada YWG-MSP?

Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:57 am

Quoting KLSMB (Reply 2):
Although a sizable portion of it would be O&D, it would give Air Canada pax traveling to/from MSP from cities in western Canada like YYC, YVR, YEG, YQR, YXE etc. a time saving option connecting to Minneapolis in Winnipeg as opposed to connecting at YYZ or ORD. Unless traffic on the route is 90% people making connections at MSP with Delta (which it is not), Air Canada should have no problem filling up a couple of daily CRJs on the route.

Why would one connect in YWG to go to any of these cities when one can go non-stop on DL from MSP to all of these cities?

Remember: YWG is not a hub for AC, so the connections would not be necessarily great anyway. I did ORD»YWG»YQR a couple times (before UA did ORD»YQR n/s) and the connection times sucked.
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ordbosewr
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RE: Air Canada YWG-MSP?

Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:19 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 4):
I can remember seeing DC-10's scheduled to be running this route at some point in the past with NW.

Yes, I flew them! which was when the route was dominated by NW and no other US carrier.
Funny part is that NW flew DC-10 then it got downgraded and mostly DC-9's.

When I started a project in YWG I was doing ORD-MSP-YWG-MSP-ORD. Then AC started ORD-YWG, so I switched to UA, but at that time I was Premier Exec on UA and Gold on NW so for me the status part did not mean all that much. UA took over the route from AC shortly after it started, then it bounced back and forth a couple of times, but it has been consistently UA for at least 5yrs. It makes more sense for it to be UA given they have the hub on one end and AC does not.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada YWG-MSP?

Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 3):
If there was enough O&D between YWG and MSP (and AC definitely have the stats) then no doubt there would be a dedicated service on a relatively short route- the fact there isn't means they're seeing a completely different picture.

That's the big point. AC (and most airlines) have access to numbers we can only dream of. If AC is not flying the route, then it is because using those numbers, they know it is not worthwhile.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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canadianpylon
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RE: Air Canada YWG-MSP?

Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting KLSMB (Thread starter):
With 164,123 people flying this route in 2011 and Delta Airlines upgrading equipment and frequencies on the route, there is clearly enough room for two airlines here.

Where do you get the numbers for pax on a route?

Quoting KLSMB (Thread starter):
I have been confused for years as to why the route is only served by one airline (Delta).

I have been confused by this myself. The fares for a flight YWG-MSP are astronomically high.

Quoting KLSMB (Reply 2):
Although a sizable portion of it would be O&D, it would give Air Canada pax traveling to/from MSP from cities in western Canada like YYC, YVR, YEG, YQR, YXE etc. a time saving option connecting to Minneapolis in Winnipeg as opposed to connecting at YYZ or ORD.

All of those markets you listed have non-stop service from MSP on DL already. I don't know if pax would switch from a non-stop service on DL to a 1-stop service AC/Star. How many ppl fly MSP-YYC/YVR/YEG/YQR/YXE via ORD/YYZ?
Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada YWG-MSP?

Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 8):
I have been confused by this myself. The fares for a flight YWG-MSP are astronomically high.

That is common with a monopoly, and certainly one of the factors assessed when thinking about opening a route. I am sure AC has already assessed this route, however, I wonder if WS is looking at it.

Some trans-border routes are just "owned" by airlines and competition never seems to shake the dominance. Like AC on YYZ-LAX/SFO or AA on YYZ-DFW. Yes, there is competition, but it is minimal at best.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada YWG-MSP?

Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:14 pm

DL operates 6x daily CRJ on YWG-MSP. This reduces to 5x daily from mid-August but 2 (or 3 depending on the day) of the daily flights will upgrade to E170/E175. It's a small market (even allowing for connecting pax) and even smaller when just considering O+D traffic.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 4):
I can remember seeing DC-10's scheduled to be running this route at some point in the past with NW.

Yupp. The NW D10 overnighted at YWG.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 9):
I am sure AC has already assessed this route, however, I wonder if WS is looking at it.

WS might consider it with the Q400, but even then I think it's doubtful.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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canadianpylon
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RE: Air Canada YWG-MSP?

Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 10):
It's a small market (even allowing for connecting pax) and even smaller when just considering O+D traffic.

I think most of pax are connecting at MSP for somewhere else.

Quoting KLSMB (Thread starter):
With 164,123 people flying this route in 2011

This number seems extremely high to me. That must be the number of people on planes flying YWG-MSP, but not O&D YWG-MSP. What percentage of those pax are terminating in MSP vs. connecting in MSP? I suspect it is a pretty small number.

That is almost 450 pax per day. At 5 round trips a day, that is 45 per flight.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 9):
Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 8):
I have been confused by this myself. The fares for a flight YWG-MSP are astronomically high.

That is common with a monopoly, and certainly one of the factors assessed when thinking about opening a route.

Oh yeah... I know. One can fly cheaper through MSP to somewhere else on DL than to MSP on Delta.
Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.

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