krisyyz
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Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:37 pm

I just came across this news... Looks like AC is now looking at replacing its narrow-body fleet and starting LCC ops next year. A320NEO, B737MAX and the C-Series are being looked at by AC.

KrisYYZ

"Air Canada is in the midst of plotting a dramatic overhaul of its fleet that management says will include the launch of its new low-cost carrier sometime in 2013."

http://business.financialpost.com/20...aunch-of-low-cost-carrier-in-2013/
 
srbmod
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:47 pm

Has AC not learned from their past mistakes? I guess they've forgotten about their previous attempt at an LCC operation, Air Canada Tango. If the airline within an airline concept was a winning concept, Delta would still have Song and United would still have Ted.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:49 pm

To the average economy class passenger such as myself, there is no difference between AC's current level of service and that of an LCC.

This is just a gimmick by AC to reduce its fleet, cut salaries and start fresh...a la AVEOS.....

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-08-08 12:51:22]
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flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 1):
Quoting srbmod (Reply 1):
Has AC not learned from their past mistakes? I guess they've forgotten about their previous attempt at an LCC operation, Air Canada Tango. If the airline within an airline concept was a winning concept, Delta would still have Song and United would still have Ted.

I'm sure the people at Air Canada have very diligent people to assess the feasibility of this concept. Certainly you've heard of JetStar (the only profitable part of Qantas), Scoot, AirOne etc.

Air Canada is not here to launch a domestic LCC. It's looking for international growth at cheaper seat cost in order to partake in a larger leisure segment of the market.

Delta/Ted were competing in the domestic market - they both have re-oriented their respective airline towards international growth.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:17 pm

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
I'm sure the people at Air Canada have very diligent people to assess the feasibility of this concept. Certainly you've heard of JetStar (the only profitable part of Qantas), Scoot, AirOne etc.


After the failure of Air Canada Zip, and Air Canada Tango, I certainly hope so.

This appears to be the future of the business, and it was only a matter of time before it spread to international flying. However, my personal opinion is that there is not enough talent in Air Canada to make this work. Time and time again I have seen Air Canada's management handed a golden egg only to toss it away!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
krisyyz
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:39 pm

I'm not an aviation insider so I may be way off the mark, but AC seems to be directing this new LCC ops at TS 's trans-atlantic and leisure travel market. In theory, if AC launches LCC TATL flights to Germany, Austria or Italy, would those pax be able to transfer onto Star Alliance partners for onwards travel? Can JetStar pax transfer to QF flights?

Since AC plans on transferring their 763s to LCC ops, is there any chance of seeing winglets and flightdeck upgrades added to the B763 fleet?

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
To the average economy class passenger such as myself, there is no difference between AC's current level of service and that of an LCC.

I would agree with you when it comes to domestic/trans-boarder flights. But not when it comes to long-haul ops. There is a very distinct difference between AC and TS on TATL flights (granted a smaller difference now that TS is upgrading their cabins).

KrisYYZ
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 1):
Has AC not learned from their past mistakes? I guess they've forgotten about their previous attempt at an LCC operation, Air Canada Tango.

Tango wasn't an LCC. It was a different brand using AC staff and higher density seating to spread costs over more passengers. Tango was converted to a separate fare category within the regular AC operation.

Zip was a separate AC-owned LCC which if memory correct had separate staff (at least ground staff) on different, lower-cost contracts, and using ex-CP 737-200s. It was shut down when the 732s were retired. I wouldn't call it a mistake as it permitted service in some western Canada markets at lower than AC mainline costs. I seem to recall that AC negotiated new, more flexible union agreements that made Zip redundant.
 
voodoo
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 5):

Since AC plans on transferring their 763s to LCC ops, is there any chance of seeing winglets and flightdeck upgrades added to the B763 fleet?

Yeah 'winglets' was first thing I thought as well.
That and the inevitable LCC livery i.e. billboard ['LCC!] titles and either all white or hideous flourescent all over coat.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
RP TPA
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 5):
I'm not an aviation insider so I may be way off the mark, but AC seems to be directing this new LCC ops at TS 's trans-atlantic and leisure travel market.

I was under the impression (last I'd read) that the LCC will be based in YVR, for services over the Pacific. But then again, an east coast-based LCC would make more sense, as AC could fly into such places as MAN/GLA/NCE, and shift the current BCN/DUB/ATH flights from mainline to LCC. Also, add Carribean flights (POS, and possibly some mainlines moved to the LCC). There are so many possibilities, I don't think anyone really knows the answer at this time.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:29 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
Zip was a separate AC-owned LCC which if memory correct had separate staff (at least ground staff) on different, lower-cost contracts, and using ex-CP 737-200s. It was shut down when the 732s were retired. I wouldn't call it a mistake as it permitted service in some western Canada markets at lower than AC mainline costs. I seem to recall that AC negotiated new, more flexible union agreements that made Zip redundant.

The only employees that actual Zip employees were the FAs, crew scheduling and office staff. Check in agents were AC employees, ground handlers were AC, pilots were AC (just a lower pay scale) and ops people were Jazz employees.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
Certainly you've heard of JetStar (the only profitable part of Qantas),

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't QANTAS domestic do rather well and MAKE money? It's QANTAS international that bleeds red.
 
multimark
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:17 am

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 8):
I was under the impression (last I'd read) that the LCC will be based in YVR, for services over the Pacific. But then again, an east coast-based LCC would make more sense, as AC could fly into such places as MAN/GLA/NCE, and shift the current BCN/DUB/ATH flights from mainline to LCC. Also, add Carribean flights (POS, and possibly some mainlines moved to the LCC). There are so many possibilities, I don't think anyone really knows the answer at this time.

All of which only lends credence to the theory that AC really has no idea what this LCC is supposed to be. A Carribean leisure carrier? A Transpacific carrier? What will be left of mainline's international route network?

And if AC is in such financial straits that they require deep concessions from employees, how is it they have so much cash for fleet renewal?
 
ElPistolero
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:34 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
Certainly you've heard of JetStar (the only profitable part of Qantas), Scoot, AirOne etc.

I thought QF Domestic was also profitable? I seem to be very much under the impression that only QF International is struggling.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
Air Canada is not here to launch a domestic LCC.

JetStar has domestic operations as well, doesn't it? Do those contribute to its profitability?

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 5):
I'm not an aviation insider so I may be way off the mark, but AC seems to be directing this new LCC ops at TS 's trans-atlantic and leisure travel market.

I've read a lot suggesting it is going to be TPAC.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 5):
There is a very distinct difference between AC and TS on TATL flights (granted a smaller difference now that TS is upgrading their cabins).

At that end of the market, I suspect price will be a more important factor than actual offering. That said, will the LCC still offer *A points? How does Jetstar work in this context? Do they earn OW points? Will these be Tango fares (50% mileage?). I can see mileage accrual being more important than comfort in some markets.

Quoting multimark (Reply 11):
All of which only lends credence to the theory that AC really has no idea what this LCC is supposed to be. A Carribean leisure carrier? A Transpacific carrier? What will be left of mainline's international route network?

A very pertinent question. Presumably mainline international routes will be slashed away over time, with only a handful remaining (like QF)?
 
krisyyz
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:48 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 12):
I've read a lot suggesting it is going to be TPAC.

So have I, there was even talk of AC getting some 77Ls from AI and converting them to high-density, LCC ops. But even if the LCC arm of AC is based out of YVR and focuses on TPAC flights, I bet AC would eventually target TATL destinations as well. That is if the LCC long-haul model works out.

KrisYYZ
 
Gemuser
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:59 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 10):
Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't QANTAS domestic do rather well and MAKE money? It's QANTAS international that bleeds red.

True and Jetstar makes money on both domestic & international services.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
Tango wasn't an LCC. It was a different brand using AC staff
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
Zip was a separate AC-owned LCC which if memory correct had separate staff (at least ground staff)

Based on the Qantas/Jetstar experience the ONLY way this will work is to acquire/setup a TOTALLY separate corporations that has NO obligations to ANY contracts that bind Air Canada. QF did it by acquiring Impulse Airlines which had its own operating certificates, labour and supplier agreements (for ALL staff & suppliers) then appoint a "tough nut" like Alan Joyce, CEO and give him the authority, directly from the full Board of Directors, to run the LCC without ANY interference from the legacy airline.
Otherwise they are just wasting their time and resources, as the established bureaucracy will "white-ant" the new carrier from the inside, to protect their own interests.

Gemuser
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ElPistolero
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:44 am

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 13):
But even if the LCC arm of AC is based out of YVR and focuses on TPAC flights, I bet AC would eventually target TATL destinations as well. That is if the LCC long-haul model works out.

IIRC, Ben Smith, one of AC's executives said AC was looking for a partner in Asia for this low cost venture. I believe the article was in the Globe and Mail (can't seem to find it). If they're looking for an Asian partner and planning to offshore some of the jobs to Asia, then it will be some time before they go for the Atlantic.

If they do go TATL, I can only guess that they will take over all routes aside from LHR, FRA and possibly CDG?
 
GregsterYUL
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:03 am

Quote:
There are several new entrants in the narrowbody market for the airline to consider, including the Boeing 737MAX, Airbus A320neo, and Bombardier’s CSeries aircraft.

The article doesn't say that AC is looking at these aircraft.. Although I'd be shocked if they ordered 737s or even C-Series. The mainline narrow body fleet will remain Airbus and don't expect a narrow body order until the end of the decade.

That being said the Embraers will most likely be transferred over to some other deal such as Jazz to operate under "Air Canada Express"

[Edited 2012-08-08 20:09:37]
 
strangr
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:20 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 14):
QF did it by acquiring Impulse Airlines which had its own operating certificates

but what airline could they buy to obtain such an operating certificate. Does it need to be a large commercial or can it be a small commercial based seaplane operator and then smash in a few T7's and wham a new airline hits the market.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting GregsterYUL (Reply 16):
That being said the Embraers will most likely be transferred over to some other deal such as Jazz to operate under "Air Canada Express"

The only Embraers that could be operated by Jazz or any other company under agreement would be the 175s. The 190s are to large since the agreement limits them to 76 seats.

Quoting GregsterYUL (Reply 16):
The article doesn't say that AC is looking at these aircraft.. Although I'd be shocked if they ordered 737s or even C-Series. The mainline narrow body fleet will remain Airbus and don't expect a narrow body order until the end of the decade.

The article does talk about AC and these newer aircraft. They even mention the fact the delivery slots are filling up but they are in no rush. With AC switching their long haul fleet to Boeing I think I'd be more surprised if Airbus is the narrow body replacement. There is some commonality between the aircraft.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting GregsterYUL (Reply 16):
That being said the Embraers will most likely be transferred over to some other deal such as Jazz to operate under "Air Canada Express"

Jazz is too expensive.

If any smaller narrow body aircraft are transferred to Air Canada Express, they will be operated by SkyRegional. In fact, one of the outcomes of the new pilot contract, is that Jazz no longer has a percentage "right" to regional flying. There is nothing stopping AC from transferring all new regional flying to SkyRegional .... slowly phasing out Jazz.

With regard to the CPA, one thing that has become apparent with the election of the majority Conservative Government, is how very closely large corporations are now working with the government. AC need only show financial hardship and the contract is cancelled. Or ... use the new bill C33 to just cut employee wages and working conditions.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
multimark
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 19):
Jazz is too expensive.

If any smaller narrow body aircraft are transferred to Air Canada Express, they will be operated by SkyRegional. In fact, one of the outcomes of the new pilot contract, is that Jazz no longer has a percentage "right" to regional flying. There is nothing stopping AC from transferring all new regional flying to SkyRegional .... slowly phasing out Jazz.

But still cheaper than AC mainline, even post-enforced contract. Cheapness will have to be balanced against the ability to ramp up a large operation. I'd be very interested to hear if the AC pilots even tried to fight having the regional flying to pushed down to Tier 3 carriers, or if moaning about a "race to the bottom" is just talk. As to phasing out Jazz, as you're well aware, under the terms of the CPA, AC cannot do that beyond a minimum threshold, short of a trip through CCAA, and I doubt you'd want to see that.

Given that AC is effectively tied in a relationship to Jazz for another 7 years, one would hope that AC management is smart enough to utilize the situation effectively, though that is far from certain, given their lacklustre track record.
 
flyb
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:12 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 18):
Quoting GregsterYUL (Reply 16):
That being said the Embraers will most likely be transferred over to some other deal such as Jazz to operate under "Air Canada Express"

The only Embraers that could be operated by Jazz or any other company under agreement would be the 175s. The 190s are to large since the agreement limits them to 76 seats.

Even the new agreement??
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 15):
If they do go TATL, I can only guess that they will take over all routes aside from LHR, FRA and possibly CDG?

i doubt GVA, BRU and MUC will be transfered to LCC ops either !

Thenoflyzone
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 8):
I was under the impression (last I'd read) that the LCC will be based in YVR, for services over the Pacific. But then again, an east coast-based LCC would make more sense, as AC could fly into such places as MAN/GLA/NCE, and shift the current BCN/DUB/ATH flights from mainline to LCC. Also, add Carribean flights (POS, and possibly some mainlines moved to the LCC). There are so many possibilities, I don't think anyone really knows the answer at this time.

There are a lot of projects currently on the burner.

There was the initial LCC which was a "leisure/vacation" type venture aimed at Canadian charter carriers. This will operate 140 seat A319s and 270 seat B767-300s. (ouch) This will be flown by Air Canada pilots at greatly reduced wages, with NO other AC employees. Flight attendants will be hired off the street, and handling will be contracted out.

Proposed routes are Caribbean and Atlantic to lower yield destinations.

The Asian LCC was in response to apparent success of Jetstar and Scoot. It is proposed to operate B777s and possibly B787s in a higher density configuration. The new pilot contract allows AC to hire pilots outside of the airline. Again, all other employees will be hired from outside. It will be hard to find pilots, as current Asian contracts being offered by "agents" offer higher wages, better working conditions and more rights that the new AC pilot contract.

And that brings me to the new AC pilot contract itself. Everyone thought it was to reduce pilot costs, but that is incorrect. As pilot costs were about the same as Westjet and much lower than Southwest, Cathay, Singapore, etc. However, the old AC pilot contract "protected" a lot of other employee groups that were more expensive than the competition. Namely ground handling, Flight Attendants and Jazz for example. They now stand alone, and I predict a lot of lay-offs in those groups.

Pilot hiring is still going at max capacity, however, with the reduced wages and working conditions of the new contract, for the first time in AC's 75 year history, pilots are not showing up for the first day of training, as they can find better deals!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting multimark (Reply 20):
But still cheaper than AC mainline, even post-enforced contract.

But mainline will not be flying the aircraft. Likely SkyRegional will, and Air Canada recently announced that seat mile costs of a Q400 flown by SkyRegional are less than HALF that of jazz/Chorus.

Quoting multimark (Reply 20):
As to phasing out Jazz, as you're well aware, under the terms of the CPA, AC cannot do that beyond a minimum threshold, short of a trip through CCAA, and I doubt you'd want to see that.

You mean like AVEOS? It wouldn't take much, and CCAA wouldn't even be necessary.

Quoting multimark (Reply 20):
I'd be very interested to hear if the AC pilots even tried to fight having the regional flying to pushed down to Tier 3 carriers, or if moaning about a "race to the bottom" is just talk.

The whole fight during negotiations was to stop the "race to the bottom" as it affected mostly the junior pilots. However, the "race to the bottom" was started by Jazz during the 2003 trip through CCAA when Jazz proposed operating Air Canada's EMJs and A320s at half the wages. That is why the EMJs today fly at a far less wage than the pilot "formula" would have allowed.

I recall a few years ago flying with an exJazz pilot who moaned about the low wages on the EMJ. I don't think he saw the irony when I brought up how that all happened!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
9252fly
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 22):

i doubt GVA, BRU and MUC will be transfered to LCC ops either !

I would have to agree. One just needs to look at where the current high Y configured B763 fly today to get an idea where the LCC will operate. Same thing applies to the all Y configured A319 aircraft. Expect an expansion into routes that are not high yielding,but rather high volume leisure.
 
krisyyz
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting GregsterYUL (Reply 16):
The article doesn't say that AC is looking at these aircraft.. Although I'd be shocked if they ordered 737s or even C-Series. The mainline narrow body fleet will remain Airbus and don't expect a narrow body order until the end of the decade.

That being said the Embraers will most likely be transferred over to some other deal such as Jazz to operate under "Air Canada Express"

I stand corrected...

But I would disagree with the narrow body fleet staying Airbus. One of AC's reason for ditiching the A340s for the B777/787s was fleet commonality. Given the fact that the 787 will replace the A333s and the posibility of significant discounts from Boeing due to the 787 delays, the 737MAX has a pretty good chance IMO.

KrisYYZ
 
ElPistolero
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 22):

Pardon my ignorance, but is GVA a high-yield route? ZRH never struck me as anything great.

Would AC continue with MUC or hand it over wholesale to LH?

And I understand BRU being used as an Africa hub for *A, but I didn't think it would be high yield enough to justify mainline service. Furthermore, there's already some competition on it ex-YYZ. 9W has a strong relationship with SN, no?
 
ElPistolero
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 23):


Interesting insight into the new pilot contract. Are prospective pilots really going to other airlines? Which ones? Will AC be hiring Asian pilots for the LCC?

How does the new contract compare to Jetstar and Scoot? Or Korean/Asiana/ /JAL/ANA? And how will language fluency factor into all of this?
 
robsaw
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
This is just a gimmick by AC to reduce its fleet, cut salaries and start fresh...a la AVEOS.....

AVEOS was spun-off by ACE Aviation after the last round of restructuring under bankruptcy protection and isn't really a comparable situation to what they're trying to do with this new LCC. The spin-off of AVEOS was to generate immediate value for shareholders and not to reduce maintenance costs for AC; in fact, the failure of AVEOS has resulted in increased maintenance costs for AC as highlighted in their last quarterly financials.

Given that AC needs to renew and shift (not reduce) its fleet and cut ALL operational costs, I'm not sure how this qualifies as a gimmick. It may be of marginal cost-savings, but in the airline business every sliver of +ve margin is precious. The real problem is still the defined benefit pension-plan, which due to world-wide economic slowdowns is in a serious deficit position requiring cash contributions over the next 10 years that will likely exceed AC's gross profit unless investments make an unexpected turn-around in the next couple of years.
 
idlewildchild
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:37 pm

I wonder if the commercial aviation industry will ever return to a genuine focus on the customer experience and the belief that if you make that experience the best, customers will pay a fair price and you can make a profit.
 
multimark
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:51 pm

But mainline will not be flying the aircraft. Likely SkyRegional will, and Air Canada recently announced that seat mile costs of a Q400 flown by SkyRegional are less than HALF that of jazz/Chorus.

Given that you've questioned the veracity of AC management's pronouncements on labour costs in the past, I'm not sure why you'd put any more credence in that figure. And as I mentioned costs are only going to be part of the picture. Do you really think Skyregional can cobble together a large airline that quickly?

You mean like AVEOS? It wouldn't take much, and CCAA wouldn't even be necessary.

The structure of the relationship between the two is different. The only thing that might work in favour of your wish to banish Jazz from AC flying is the stupidity of a couple of its labour groups who seem intent on creating work disruptions which could jeopardize the CPA. It seems the stupidity of big labour isn't just confined to mainline carriers.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 27):
And I understand BRU being used as an Africa hub for *A, but I didn't think it would be high yield enough to justify mainline service.

I fly YOW-YUL-BRU 8-10 times a year and J is usually 90+% full. In addition to being a *A Africa hub, BRU is closer to North Rhine-Westphalia (the most populous and industrialised/prosperous Land in Germany) than FRA, has excellent high-speed rail connections to AMS, CGN, ANR, DUS, etc, and doesn't have the high eco-taxes imposed on pax through FRA/MUC.
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lostsound
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:37 pm

I hope they stick to the Airbus narrow bodies and keep the aircraft diversity amongst airlines in Canada.
WestJet will probably spring for the 737MAX. It would be great to see the C-Series pick up some orders too.

[Edited 2012-08-09 13:38:33]
 
phxa340
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting LostSound (Reply 33):

WSJ has said that to garner customers from Airbus, Boeing is discounting the MAX by 10% under Airbus' offer. Air Canada is prime for Boeing to pick up another Airbus customer.
 
lostsound
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 34):

Yes. However given how close AC and Airbus have been working together for the first biofuel A330 flight and Air Canada's strong Airbus A32X presence, i'm certain Airbus will have a counter offer. The new Mobile plant means the possibility of more slots.
 
srbmod
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
Tango wasn't an LCC. It was a different brand using AC staff and higher density seating to spread costs over more passengers. Tango was converted to a separate fare category within the regular AC operation.

Air Canada Tango was an LCC "airline within an airline" like Song (and Delta Express before that) was for Delta and Ted (and Shuttle By United/United Shuttle before that) was for United. From the Tango website (Courtesy of the Internet Archive Wayback Machine):

http://web.archive.org/web/200202051...www.flytango.com/en/tango/who.html

Quote:
Tango offers consumers a no-frills air travel alternative complementing Air Canada's full service operations.

No-frills=LCC
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:49 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 36):
Quote:
Tango offers consumers a no-frills air travel alternative complementing Air Canada's full service operations.

No-frills=LCC

I've never considered that type of operation that uses the same employees as the mainline carrier and working under the same union agreements and salary scales etc. to be a true LCC. It's more like a separate brand. Whereas Zip did have quite a few staff working under more flexible work rules. I considered Zip an LCC but not Tango. It's all academic now.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:01 am

Quoting multimark (Reply 31):
Given that you've questioned the veracity of AC management's pronouncements on labour costs in the past, I'm not sure why you'd put any more credence in that figure. And as I mentioned costs are only going to be part of the picture. Do you really think Skyregional can cobble together a large airline that quickly?

It doesn't have to happen quickly, and I am quite certain that it will not. Moving that many aircraft from one company to another would be a burden regardless of the size of company. Note that AC has not said they would ... only that they could. (My opinion only) would see the 15 E175s retired/sold and replaced with 15 Q400s under the Air Canada Express brand.

I always view any cost announcements with skepticism, and go immediately to the public domain for back up. In this case, it is not that hard a stretch to imagine that Sky Regional would have half the cost of jazz/chorus. The highly inflated CPA of jazz/chorus vice what every other airline is charging alone would indicate that!

Quoting multimark (Reply 31):
The structure of the relationship between the two is different. The only thing that might work in favour of your wish to banish Jazz from AC flying is the stupidity of a couple of its labour groups who seem intent on creating work disruptions which could jeopardize the CPA. It seems the stupidity of big labour isn't just confined to mainline carriers.

I don't think it would go that far. You see, CCAA isn't really a threat to employees, as wages and working conditions can not be changed without the consent of employees. However .... the new Bill C33 is a HUGE threat to any Canadian employee, as now employers can change any wages, working conditions and pensions with the blessing of the government. And the right to strike is taken away at the same time. They only have to show financial burden and any accountant worth his salt can do that.

Frankly, I am surprised that more working groups have not protested this new bill. I can only assume it is because it has not affected them .... yet.
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:31 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 28):
Interesting insight into the new pilot contract. Are prospective pilots really going to other airlines? Which ones? Will AC be hiring Asian pilots for the LCC?

I don't know if they went to other airlines, or just stayed where they were. Just that with every new pilot class, there have been no-shows, something previously unheard of!

The new pilot contract allows AC to staff the LCC from outside of the airline. It will be interesting to see if they do. I only wonder, as a lot of Asian carriers (through third party agents) are presently "courting" Air Canada pilots. The offers are higher wages, better working conditions and more "rights" than the new pilot contract. Which makes me wonder if external pilots can get those jobs, why would they waste their time with Air Canada?

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 28):
How does the new contract compare to Jetstar and Scoot? Or Korean/Asiana/ /JAL/ANA? And how will language fluency factor into all of this?

It varies, as all airline's contracts differ. Basically, AC LCC pilots will be among the lowest paid on the Pacific, and working conditions will be the worst that Canadian Air Regs will allow, which are already among the worst working conditions on the earth!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
multimark
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 24):
The whole fight during negotiations was to stop the "race to the bottom" as it affected mostly the junior pilots. However, the "race to the bottom" was started by Jazz during the 2003 trip through CCAA when Jazz proposed operating Air Canada's EMJs and A320s at half the wages. That is why the EMJs today fly at a far less wage than the pilot "formula" would have allowed.

I had to go back to this, as there's a huge amount of irony here. Had ACPA not overeacted to the Jazz pilots opening gambit to fly E-jets and A320's, the E-jets would undoubteldy have gone to the regional carrier. Instead they've been flown by AC mainline, apparently with poor margins or why would they dump them, for 7 years. And now they'll end up at a regional carrier where they should have been all along. Maybe ACPA should concentrate more on keeping their employer profitable and less on keeping their union rolls padded.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 38):
I always view any cost announcements with skepticism, and go immediately to the public domain for back up. In this case, it is not that hard a stretch to imagine that Sky Regional would have half the cost of jazz/chorus. The highly inflated CPA of jazz/chorus vice what every other airline is charging alone would indicate that!

As you must know, the under the CPA terms the agreement is benchmarked against other similar North American operations and periodically reset. AC just seems unable to accept the fact that they, and nobody else, is to blame for the situation they're in.
 
robsaw
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:59 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 38):
However .... the new Bill C33 is a HUGE threat to any Canadian employee, as now employers can change any wages, working conditions and pensions with the blessing of the government. And the right to strike is taken away at the same time. They only have to show financial burden and any accountant worth his salt can do that.

While C-33 sets a precedent. It was and is a specific Act applicable to a specific employer (AC) for a specific event and is not of any legal effect with respect to any other circumstance.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:39 pm

Quoting multimark (Reply 40):
I had to go back to this, as there's a huge amount of irony here. Had ACPA not overeacted to the Jazz pilots opening gambit to fly E-jets and A320's, the E-jets would undoubteldy have gone to the regional carrier. Instead they've been flown by AC mainline, apparently with poor margins or why would they dump them, for 7 years.

The E-jets are the same weight and mission as the DC-9s and B737s that they replaced, and had been flying with AC and CP for more than 30 years. Why wouldn't they be flown by AC pilots? ACPA didn't overreact as much as they were astonished that there was an "opening gambit" at all. Personally, I am still surprised at Jazz, and their race to the bottom. Hey, while they were at it, why not offer to fly the B777 for half, I am sure they'd be willing to do it ... and take the whole profession down with them.

ACPA's response was simply the formula of the contract agreed to by AC and voted for by AC's pilots.

Had Jazz not made an "opening gambit" the race to the bottom would not have occurred and the wages would have been in line with the aircraft they replaced.

I don't know about the "poor margins" of the E-jets. As you know, AC does not publish separate operating statistics by aircraft type. The only rumour I have heard is that the E190 is profitable, but the E175 is not. But ... just a rumour. Apparently while carrying 24 less passengers, it does not cost a proportionate amount less to operate.

Quoting multimark (Reply 40):
As you must know, the under the CPA terms the agreement is benchmarked against other similar North American operations and periodically reset. AC just seems unable to accept the fact that they, and nobody else, is to blame for the situation they're in.

If you mean the CPA, you are absolutely right. The CPA was signed at a greatly inflated rate with the intent of making Jazz attractive to sell. Jazz was sold, the "spoils" did not remain in the company, and AC is left to pick up the pieces.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:41 pm

Quoting robsaw (Reply 41):
While C-33 sets a precedent. It was and is a specific Act applicable to a specific employer (AC) for a specific event and is not of any legal effect with respect to any other circumstance.

Yes, that is right. Do you really think it is a stretch to think that that same thing would happen again to a different company? As you state ... C33 set a precedent.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
ANM604
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:26 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 39):
Basically, AC LCC pilots will be among the lowest paid on the Pacific, and working conditions will be the worst that Canadian Air Regs will allow, which are already among the worst working conditions on the earth!

While I respect you, and your profession, this is utter bs/complete union spin. I absolutely do not believe that flying a plane, much less one for AC, constitutes working in terrible conditions. Any way you look at it, the "working conditions" flying for a commercial airline are substantial better than the majority of people currently enjoy. How many days a month do you work? Do you work from 6am to 6pm in the pouring rain/snow/heat/whatever pouring concrete or paving roads? I'm sure many many other people can claim they have terrible working conditions; pilots are not even close! Statements like that make people shake their heads and wonder why unions exist.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 42):
The only rumour I have heard is that the E190 is profitable, but the E175 is not. But ... just a rumour. Apparently while carrying 24 less passengers, it does not cost a proportionate amount less to operate.

It's not a rumour, just look at the order book. Per wikipedia, 189 firm orders for the E175, and 552 firm orders for the E190. It's no secret it's the most efficient variant of the family.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 38):
Note that AC has not said they would ... only that they could. (My opinion only) would see the 15 E175s retired/sold and replaced with 15 Q400s under the Air Canada Express brand.

I agree, I think there will be a large increase in Q flying whether it's AC Express, Jazz, or someone else. Jazz needs the get rid of the CRJ100/200's asap with some better machines or the new WS regional is going to eat their lunch. The new scope allows for much more 76 and less seat flying, which I see increasing, regardless of who is flying it. I think AC needs to get away from the overpriced CPA with Jazz if they ever want to make money flying regionally.

[Edited 2012-08-10 22:31:42]

[Edited 2012-08-10 22:32:41]
 
davidca
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:51 am

Where the LCC flight attendants and other employees will come from hasn't been determined yet. It's not a given that they'll be hired off the street. I'd expect their unions to go after the work aggressively. They may well end up with a deal similar to what was imposed on the pilots, i.e. different pay and working conditions for LCC work.
 
mandala499
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:08 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 23):
The Asian LCC was in response to apparent success of Jetstar and Scoot.

Scoot is actually in SQ's response to Jetstar Asia's and Air Asia X's success in medium haul routes.
Scoot is still in its infancy.
Air Asia X's long haul to Europe has been... errr... "suspended in pursuit for a better aircraft"...

Given the rise of LCCs around the world, one bitter pill the industry has to swallow is that sustainability comes from a competitive cost base. And the rise of complex layers of services brewing in the LCC sector has reinforced the notion that it's not about cutting frills... it's basically, about getting a competitive bare bones cost basis... Everything else (frills) is built on top of that. That is how LCCs can end up providing more services than the conventional (this happens in other parts of the world).

Mandala499
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zkncj
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:28 am

I don't think any full service airline has really been able to create a LCC without a major cost to their own business. You just have to look at how many start up LCC have qucikly been closed down, or look at what Jetstar has done to Qantas.

NZ is a example of this, in the early 90s they started Freedom Air (SJ) in order to battle out the era of low cost chater airlines on the Tasman. In the short term SJ worked for them as it got rid of the new start ups, one by one till they had they had the market back to them self. By the mid 2000s it was costing them more to run a dual fleet of Internal A320s, than to run it as one airline. Which lead NZ to transfer all its international A320s to SJ but drop the SJ and brand the flights as NZ.

Going forward to 2010, with a lot of LCC airlines on the Tasman they decided to re-launch the LCC concept within there own branding. This included converting the A320s to 168 one class, but selling for levels of product, Seat / Seat+Plus / Works / Works Delux. This has allowed them to cater for both markets on one flight, which has ended up providing them with very good loads.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:28 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 44):
While I respect you, and your profession, this is utter bs/complete union spin. I absolutely do not believe that flying a plane, much less one for AC, constitutes working in terrible conditions. Any way you look at it, the "working conditions" flying for a commercial airline are substantial better than the majority of people currently enjoy.

Actually, working conditions referred to when compared to other country's air crew duty and crewing restrictions. It is no secret that Canada's air crew restrictions are very very liberal. This has been a bone of contention in Canada for decades. While you may think this is "union spin", it is no rhetoric that fatigue is one of the major causes of air accidents and incidents these days.

When compared to the United States (for example) across the board, almost every American aircraft flying the Atlantic has one more pilot than every Canadian aircraft. Same thing with the Pacific and Asian carriers ... albeit to a lesser extent due to the longer flight legs requiring 3 and 4 pilots on Canadian aircraft.

The big problem in Canada, is that most other Canadian carriers use Canadian Air Regs as restrictions, and that is very hard to compete with. Hence, when AC proposed the LCC, that was one of the changes wanted .... even MORE liberal duty day and crewing restrictions.

I remember when duty day and crewing restrictions came up for review in Canada, all of the charter airlines lobbied to have them remain the same, even made more liberal, as that was their "edge" against other airlines. Both Canadian and European. Its also why a lot of charter airlines do contract work in Europe, they get to work under rules only dreamed of over there!

The result of that review was comic, as I remember when the Minister of Transport stood up and announced his decision. Nothing had changed .... but he did acknowledge that fatigue is a big issue, so he stated that from that point forward it would be illegal to be fatigued!

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 44):
Do you work from 6am to 6pm in the pouring rain/snow/heat/whatever pouring concrete or paving roads? I'm sure many many other people can claim they have terrible working conditions; pilots are not even close! Statements like that make people shake their heads and wonder why unions exist.

6 am to 6pm? Wow, that's only 12 hours! I can't remember the last time I had the luxury of only a 12 hour day! And, its during daylight hours!!! Even rarer!

Try a 19 hour duty day, crossing many time zones, adjusting languages, changing air regs, changing procedures only to arrive to a Cat3 approach where you are not likely to get in, then have to cancel the Cat 3 because winds are hitting 30 knots! Finally arrive at your destination .... get minimum crew rest, even pressure to have less than minimum crew rest to wake up at 2 am your time, fly all night for another 17 hours! Only to have some wiener that flies a desk for a living second guess why you went to your alternate!

(In my next life I am going to pave roads for a living)

And, while working days may be less than the average office working. They are away from home far far longer.

Why do unions exist? That is worth a thread of its own, and would be a hot one I bet. But, unions fulfill a huge number of functions. One of them is increasing your safety. And being less fatigued IS safer. I don't view it as adversarial, more like educational. The union tries to educate the company that often while safety is more expensive, it is cheaper in the long run. Air Canada's "upset" recently of the B767 YYZ-ZRH is an excellent example.
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bmacleod
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RE: Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:38 pm

I'd like to see AC pick 737MAX; though hindsight tells me they'll chose a mix of A320NEOs and being Canadian of course the C-series.
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus