crAAzy
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AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:39 pm

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pilots...t-american-airlines-175617745.html

Wow. Just wow. Keeping things interesting that's for sure.

I thought the vote might have been a little closer but I guess it just further highlights the animosity between the labor groups and management.

[Edited 2012-08-08 11:48:58]
 
apodino
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:14 pm

Reading some pilot forums....it sounds like that the AA pilots are not happy that this contract was all concessionary and they got nothing in return. The general feeling among pilots in the industry is that AA pilots are taking a stand and this no vote will strengthen their position and that they will get a better contract in the future, and they also feel that this will pressure AA more into a US merger, where they obviously have a lot to gain based on the agreement they reached with Parker.

While I understand what the AA pilots are doing with their no vote, I do think the no vote does more harm than good. For one thing, this was the companies last offer, now a new contract is going to be imposed on APA in bankruptcy, and the terms of this contract is probably going to be worse than this contract they just rejected. Secondly, the work rules at AA are so out of whack with the rest of industry that if the pilots think they are going to keep the same types of work rules, they are living in the past. Thirdly, although a merger with US would be good for the AA pilots, they can not count on such a merger to happen, and the agreement they had with US would have been effective regardless of the vote on this proposal. Lastly, although DL just had a contract agreement ratified, the UA pilots are in a contract negotiation of their own, and if the BK judge imposes all of what AA wants..it is going to put the UA pilots in a very difficult position as Smisek will use the AA contract as a baseline for negotiations and anything that DL may have gained is going to be negated by the AA contract.

I really fear for the AA pilots too...I suspect some of them are really good guys...but their stubbornness has cost them more than they realize...and as long as they have that attitude...they are going to have a real tough time moving forward and it makes AA management job that much harder.
 
phxa340
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:20 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
but their stubbornness has cost them more than they realize

   Every other industry has taken cuts. This entitlement needs to be minimized. I understand that it is hard to go from a certain sized paycheck and or work hours to less money and more hours but the rest of the country has been doing this since '08 and don't have the benefits of unionized action like Pilots do. I know many will argue that this strategy was done to aid the merger with US but AA pilots now are going to get worse terms that will make AA more profitable. To the creditors , while labor strife is bad, AA now has even more cost savings and productivity out of their pilots.
 
DashTrash
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
For one thing, this was the companies last offer,

Everything is management's last offer.

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
now a new contract is going to be imposed on APA in bankruptcy,

That makes sense, but I don't think it'll happen. I'm betting AA management is scared of what would happen operationally if the judge imposes a contract.
 
N353SK
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:28 pm

While some industries have taken reductions since 2008, you're completely glossing over the fact that airline labor has been on concessionary contracts since 2001. What other industry has lost 40% of their salaries and 100% of their pensions?
 
phxa340
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:33 pm

Quoting N353SK (Reply 4):
What other industry has lost 40% of their salaries and 100% of their pensions?

Seriously ? You name it ... Financial , Automotive, Telecommunications. And what industry even has Pensions anymore in the first place ?
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:33 pm

The union is betting the airline will blink and they'll get a bit more then the final offer. That may happen but its just as likely the court will impose a contract that is current industry standard...which might be really bad for the pilots given their current deal.
 
crAAzy
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:53 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
That makes sense, but I don't think it'll happen. I'm betting AA management is scared of what would happen operationally if the judge imposes a contract.

Not sure scared it the right word. However, I hope AA management realizes that the decisions they decide to impose on the pilots will have consequences to one degree or another.

I think it's going to be interesting if all the other unions approve their contracts, except for the pilot group. It potentially is going to leave them out in the cold in the eyes of the BK judge, AA management, and any potential merger partners.
It also leaves them vulerable for even deeper cuts to make up for the savings lost with the other labor group having approved their contracts.

Finally, if AA managment really wanted to put the screws to the pilot group they could now use bankruptcy to impose a new more favorable contract for AA, dump the pensions for the pilot group, and merge with US before exiting bankruptcy. This would give any new managment more leverage allwoing them keep the imposed AA pilot contract in place as an incentive/tool to bring all the pilot groups together under one new contract.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:07 pm

I expected this, but it will have a cost for the pilots. I expect them to sit down and hammer out a *slightly* better deal. But first AA should sign contracts with all the other groups before showing that a "no" vote means better terms.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
I'm betting AA management is scared of what would happen operationally if the judge imposes a contract.

Will management have a choice? Really bad operations will drive away customers. Today it is *really* easy for a company to blacklist an airline. Just a few mouse clicks...

Does anyone have AA's cash flow burn rate? It must be pretty high at this point.


Lightsaber
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xjet
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:12 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 2):
benefits of unionized action like Pilots do

I understand your point. But also understand that the unions that pilots are a part of are bound by the Railway Labor Act. This law really limits the actions that unions can take on their own behalf.

Also, in my opinion, the TA would have placed AA pilots at the bottom of the standard for major airline pilots in many areas. Especially scope, and regarding the B-scale for A319 flying. This is a giant concession. If an 1113c motion is granted, it is only valid during the bankruptcy. The TA would have been in effect for 6 years. Voting this TA down subjects AMR pilots to a possible 1113c ruling, but gets them back to the negotiating table faster.

I think everyone realizes this, but just to reiterate... the judge may grant the 113c motion, but that doesn't mean that the AMR "term sheet" would be ordered into effect. That's what the company will ask for, I'm sure. In fact, the judge could just order the terms of this rejected TA into effect.

Sometimes I feel that pilots get labeled as a bunch of whiners on here, but that truly isn't the case.  The pilots of AA are a very experienced group of aviators that have been around the block in this industry. They saw what happened to UA pilots when they voted to help avoid bankruptcy. That has yielded 10 years of rough times at UAL. AA pilots don't want to see the same happen to their pilot group.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 6):
That may happen but its just as likely the court will impose a contract that is current industry standard...
Quoting crAAzy (Reply 7):
Finally, if AA managment really wanted to put the screws to the pilot group they could now use bankruptcy to impose a new more favorable contract for AA, dump the pensions for the pilot group

As I recall the process, the court doesn't impose a contract on the union, rather the court allows the company to impose it's "1113 terms." Also, IIRC, the Judge is already scheduled to rule on AMR's request to do that on August 15.

I heard the voting numbers were that 96.5 percent voted, and it was rejected 61 to 39 percent.

I also understand that there is some discussion as to whether APA can immediately strike if the company imposes a contract that wasn't formed within the provisions of the Railway Labor Act. From what I recall of the RLA, this situation isn't addressed, but I'll take another look. Does anyone know of any precedent that would apply?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:42 pm

I think the pilots would have rejected anything they were offered. It seems they just hate management and want a US merger.

I was on an AA flight before and i still remember exactly how openly a pilot and flight attendant were publicly slamming management who both said they hope they merge with US so they can replace the current "bums". Personally i though it was a little "classless" to have such a conversation in uniform on an AA flight but i think it seems to be the majority opinion nowdays among employees. The union just represents the employees opinions dont blame them the individual employees hate the management
 
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Revelation
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
I'm betting AA management is scared of what would happen operationally if the judge imposes a contract.

Interesting. We just saw an arbitrator impose management's contract on labor at Air Canada, and not much notice of that was taken here on a.net, nor have we seen any action on the part of the union, other than the predictable press statements full of outrage. Perhaps the Canadians are just too polite?
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JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:47 pm

For those of us who don't follow the court issues more closely, what is the scope with the Airbuses?

Also, I know that the unions worked out an agreement with Parker; but I do have to wonder why. While he is saying that all this will be good, he still hasn't worked out the issues from the last time he merged with someone. It would seem that the issues with US pilots should show current AA pilots what the issues might and could become versus what D. Parker is saying on paper.
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FlyHossD
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:09 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
Interesting. We just saw an arbitrator impose management's contract on labor at Air Canada, and not much notice of that was taken here on a.net, nor have we seen any action on the part of the union, other than the predictable press statements full of outrage. Perhaps the Canadians are just too polite?

The Railway Labor Act applies to U.S. companies, not Canadian ones. IOW, it's a different process. Furthermore, AA's situation and workgroups are different that ACs. IMHO, there's a lot more animosity at AMR.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
ldvaviation
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting xjet (Reply 9):
Voting this TA down subjects AMR pilots to a possible 1113c ruling, but gets them back to the negotiating table faster.

Not necessarily. Go read the letter that was sent to the pilots upon the decision to send the TA to a ratification vote. It is the opinion of APA's own legal advisors that AA could emerge from bankruptcy without a deal with the pilots. Furthermore, it was the opinion of APA's legal advisors that without a contract APA's claim against the AA estate would be compromised and therefore APA could very well be superseded by the other unsecured creditors. Without a TA and post-abrogation, AA holds all the cards.


Quoting flyhossd (Reply 10):
I also understand that there is some discussion as to whether APA can immediately strike if the company imposes a contract that wasn't formed within the provisions of the Railway Labor Act. From what I recall of the RLA, this situation isn't addressed, but I'll take another look. Does anyone know of any precedent that would apply?

Yes, the matter has been litigated. See Northwest versus its FA union. The court abrogated the FA contract. The FA unions engaged in a work stoppage (CHAOS). Northwest was granted an injunction against the work action. An appeal court upheld the injunction, after determining that the FA contract had been "legally" terminated.
 
AA94
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:38 pm

I'm not completely knowledgable about AA's labor arrangements, but I do think the pilots shot themselves in the foot a bit today.

The pilots need to stop counting on Doug Parker to be their knight in shining armor, and they need to find a way to get on good (or at least better) terms with AA management. Especially if all the other labor groups approve their new contracts, it puts the pilots in a bad light, and the bankruptcy judge seems more likely to look unfavorably on a pilot union holdout.

Just my   
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bigjku
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 11):
I was on an AA flight before and i still remember exactly how openly a pilot and flight attendant were publicly slamming management who both said they hope they merge with US so they can replace the current "bums". Personally i though it was a little "classless" to have such a conversation in uniform on an AA flight but i think it seems to be the majority opinion nowdays among employees. The union just represents the employees opinions dont blame them the individual employees hate the management

Anyone who does this to their company while in uniform and at work should be liable to be fired on the spot.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:55 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 5):
And what industry even has Pensions anymore in the first place ?

Mine does...and we EARN it!
 
FlyHossD
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:03 am

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 5):
And what industry even has Pensions anymore in the first place ?

Seriously!?

Senior airline management!

See the downfall of Don Carty. IIRC, "retention bonuses" were at issue, too.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
. I'm betting AA management is scared of what would happen operationally if the judge imposes a contract.

And the last time the AA pilots did something like that who won? And what was the price tag of the action?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:08 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
and they also feel that this will pressure AA more into a US merger, where they obviously have a lot to gain based on the agreement they reached with Parker.

That's my main read. I think they're trying to force the merger.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 20):
And the last time the AA pilots did something like that who won? And what was the price tag of the action?

the situation is different. Management has more to lose than the pilots have. The pilots have a TA with Parker that they like. If they don't get the contract they like from AA, they are betting that AA will have no choice but to hop in bed with US. On the other hand, AA management has the airline to lose and they don't really have a fallback.
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aaexecplat
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:13 am

If I remember correctly, this was expected. According to the rumor that AA was a long way down the road toward acquiring B6, AA is merely needing labor agreements to be finalized in order to move on the acquisition. Reportedly, the pilots were told by one of their own and were widely expected to reject the offer with the rationale that a new better offer would very quickly be reached in order for AA to be able to move on the B6 acquisition.
 
gigneil
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:18 am

Quoting N353SK (Reply 4):
What other industry has lost 40% of their salaries and 100% of their pensions?

You're right. Most have lost WAY more.

NS
 
SPREE34
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:27 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
That makes sense, but I don't think it'll happen. I'm betting AA management is scared of what would happen operationally if the judge imposes a contract.

EASTERN. They will be about 2 steps from Eastern with an imposed contract (s).
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:29 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
and they also feel that this will pressure AA more into a US merger, where they obviously have a lot to gain based on the agreement they reached with Parker.

That's my main read. I think they're trying to force the merger.

I just don't see how USAPA + APA = anything other than a murder-suicide. The idea that any union is looking to a merger for salvation, with US of all carriers, is looney tunes.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
That makes sense, but I don't think it'll happen. I'm betting AA management is scared of what would happen operationally if the judge imposes a contract

Does the union have any choice in the matter? Wouldn't the APA instantly be brought into court if they tried to do anything to the operation?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
aaexecplat
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 25):
Does the union have any choice in the matter? Wouldn't the APA instantly be brought into court if they tried to do anything to the operation?

Of course they would. That said, it is unlikely that AA wants to stick it to the pilots. But they have to pretend to want to impose terms or else the FAs will vote their TA Dow, too. Muc better for the FAs to agree to the last best offer and then go back and renegotiate with the last, met costly work group....
 
DashTrash
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:22 am

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 10):
I also understand that there is some discussion as to whether APA can immediately strike if the company imposes a contract that wasn't formed within the provisions of the Railway Labor Act.

I think it was in the Mesaba bankruptcy that the judge ruled labor groups cannot strike after a contract is imposed through an 1113c motion. Don't quote me on the case, but I do know the precedent was set at the lower court level. That precedent could be appealed, but the timeline for that appeal wold no doubt be lengthy.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
Interesting. We just saw an arbitrator impose management's contract on labor at Air Canada, and not much notice of that was taken here on a.net, nor have we seen any action on the part of the union, other than the predictable press statements full of outrage. Perhaps the Canadians are just too polite?

Maybe y'all aren't as militant.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 16):
I'm not completely knowledgable about AA's labor arrangements, but I do think the pilots shot themselves in the foot a bit today.

I don't. I think they said no to a shit TA. 69% of the pilots told management their offer was crap.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 20):
And the last time the AA pilots did something like that who won? And what was the price tag of the action?

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 25):
Does the union have any choice in the matter? Wouldn't the APA instantly be brought into court if they tried to do anything to the operation?

Likely. Problem is the company has to prove violation of the status quo. It's been done before on more than one occasion, but can elevate into an all out war that gets the traveling public's attention.
 
ldvaviation
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:34 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 27):
There is more than one way to skin a cat.

You must not remember what happened last time. The judge saw through all of APA's excuses.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:35 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
but their stubbornness has cost them more than they realize

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. They took cuts back when Carty was CEO and they got stabbed in the back. I don't blame them for trying to stand their ground.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:43 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 27):
Problem is the company has to prove violation of the status quo.

I don't think pilots understand how many measured data points they give off every second of every minute they're on the job--they do anything repeatedly, and it quickly becomes clear as day. That's one of the reasons USAPA quickly got a permanent injunction.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
aaexecplat
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:49 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 29):
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. They took cuts back when Carty was CEO and they got stabbed in the back. I don't blame them for trying to stand their ground.

Honestly...if you are really a college student, you have ZERO clue how the economy has changed since 2001. Most people would have been fortunate to have taken AA employees' haircuts to pay and benefits. It's difficult to stand your ground for an extended time in a capitalist economy when there are millions out there willing to do your job for less and they would be happy to get the opportunity...
 
phxa340
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:50 am

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 19):
Seriously!?

Senior airline management!

Way to completely miss my point. If we can just get out of the mindset of being so Airline-Centric, you will realize other industries have lost WAY more than benefits than AA or any other airline.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 32):
Way to completely miss my point. If we can just get out of the mindset of being so Airline-Centric, you will realize other industries have lost WAY more than benefits than AA or any other airline.

Hey, you asked! I was surprised that you asked such an easy question. And this just happens to be an "Airline-Centric" forum (a.k.a. www.airliners.net) in case you hadn't noticed!!!

And I never said that other industries didn't lose a lot or more; of course they have. Several of my family members have lost jobs in the recent downturn.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:57 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 27):
There is more than one way to skin a cat.

But, it has nine lives.  
 
stratosphere
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:03 am

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 31):
Honestly...if you are really a college student, you have ZERO clue how the economy has changed since 2001. Most people would have been fortunate to have taken AA employees' haircuts to pay and benefits. It's difficult to stand your ground for an extended time in a capitalist economy when there are millions out there willing to do your job for less and they would be happy to get the opportunity...

Well I wouldn't expect a VP of marketing to understand how the common worker continues to be screwed. While you make valid points and there will always be people willing to do your job for less the fact remains that after years of abuse from management asking for concessions then you give concessions and watch them line their pockets with millions and slap you in the face then ask for more. Something has to give. I went through it with NWA and in the end lost a 20 year career and had to start over I applaud them for taking a stand even if it costs them their job.. I did it and it cost me my job but I am a better man for it. Sometimes you have to take a stand against this runaway capitalism.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:04 am

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 31):
Most people would have been fortunate to have taken AA employees' haircuts to pay and benefits.

So far, so good. It's been a tough economy on a lot of industries.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 31):
in a capitalist economy when there are millions out there willing to do your job

When it comes to the AA pilots - that is what this thread is about after all - that's so wrong. There are not "millions" of qualified pilots out there waiting to replace the AA pilots. They're doing a great job of hiding it, but the regionals are already canceling flights for lack of pilots and it's about to get worse.

If AA imposes relatively poor terms on the pilots, the potential replacement pilots for the retiring AA pilots will chose DL, UA and others over AA; the shortage is even worse worldwide. I predict that pilot hiring is going to get very competitive.

IIRC, A.O.P.A. has stated that less than 500 pilots received commercial pilot certificates (in the U.S.) last year.

[Edited 2012-08-08 19:08:31]
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
stratosphere
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:06 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 29):
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. They took cuts back when Carty was CEO and they got stabbed in the back. I don't blame them for trying to stand their ground.

  
 
DashTrash
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:03 am

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 28):
You must not remember what happened last time. The judge saw through all of APA's excuses.

No, I remember well. APA staged a sick out. It was fairly obvious.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 30):

I don't think pilots understand how many measured data points they give off every second of every minute they're on the job--they do anything repeatedly, and it quickly becomes clear as day. That's one of the reasons USAPA quickly got a permanent injunction.

Most do. Airlines have drug the pilots to court for all sorts of things. Sick calls, MX write ups, you name it. Here's the thing. If write ups spike and they are all legitimate, the company can't exactly get an injunction ordering crews to fly broken airplanes. If sick calls spike and those pilots get an MD to write an excuse (CBA's usually have language regarding this), the company can't get an injunction forcing those guys to fly while unfit for duty

Simply put, no court is going to order a pilot or pilot group to break the law. That pilot / pilot group may have to defend themselves, but corrective action in a log book, a doctors excuse, or being too tired to fly on a non-regular basis is going to be pretty strong defense.
 
skedguy
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
the situation is different. Management has more to lose than the pilots have. The pilots have a TA with Parker that they like. If they don't get the contract they like from AA, they are betting that AA will have no choice but to hop in bed with US. On the other hand, AA management has the airline to lose and they don't really have a fallback.

Oh, the pilots have a lot to lose. I give tens of thousands of dollars in business to AA every year out of my own pocket, and I'm steaming mad about the outcome of the vote today. Do I want to make a connection via another hub instead of flying nonstop from DFW? Of course not. Would I divert international premium ticket purchases to another carrier if operations at AA were to suffer due to labor strife? Absolutely. Without loyal customers like me, there is no standalone AA or AA+US.
 
chepos
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting skedguy (Reply 39):
Oh, the pilots have a lot to lose. I give tens of thousands of dollars in business to AA every year out of my own pocket, and I'm steaming mad about the outcome of the vote today. Do I want to make a connection via another hub instead of flying nonstop from DFW? Of course not. Would I divert international premium ticket purchases to another carrier if operations at AA were to suffer due to labor strife? Absolutely. Without loyal customers like me, there is no standalone AA or AA+US.



You are steaming mad the pilots rejected the LBFO and you are a passenger? If your flight is on time and gets from point A to point B what do you care? When your flights get cx or diverted or whatever then you can get steaming mad, no need to start assuming scenarios before they have happened. Don't get worked up over something that at the time is personally not affecting you. AA will still be there tomorrow and the next day and the day after.

Regards,

Chepos
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
PRAirbus
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:59 am

More leverage for AA management by voting down their offer. Surely FAs will vote NO too. Most likely AA management will get a better SCOPE clause and fly bigger jets with more competitive pilot pay. Judge will not side with labor and I wonder how pilots and FAs would feel when they move down on seniority after 1113s furloughs take place...US, B6, whatever all rumors. This would hurt pilots in their pockets and FAs will cry; they'll lose more'in benefits and pay too.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:23 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 25):
I just don't see how USAPA + APA = anything other than a murder-suicide. The idea that any union is looking to a merger for salvation, with US of all carriers, is looney tunes.

They reached a TA with US, didn't they?

Quoting chepos (Reply 40):

You are steaming mad the pilots rejected the LBFO and you are a passenger? If your flight is on time and gets from point A to point B what do you care? When your flights get cx or diverted or whatever then you can get steaming mad, no need to start assuming scenarios before they have happened. Don't get worked up over something that at the time is personally not affecting you. AA will still be there tomorrow and the next day and the day after.

And I guarantee that if AA has to fold to US, the new AA will still be AA, have an Eagle, and a DFW hub. US isn't going to buy AA and then dismantle it.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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ROSWELL41
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:29 am

Horton and the rest off senior AMR management are going to lose control of their enterprise if the FA's reject their TA and the judge abrogrates both contracts. The UCC will not sit idly by and let Horton and Co. preside over the destruction of AA to their collective detriment. Parker will get his turn. Whether he is any better than Horton remains to be seen.
 
AAplat4life
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:31 am

Per the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram, DFW and ORD were the only two pilot bases voting for the new contract. I think the large vote against the contract will make it difficult for the court to impose a contract on the pilots as a practical matter. It remains to be seen whether this opens the door a bit more for US Airways. It could be a wake-up call for the creditors. After all, US gives them an immediate exit strategy, because they would receive stock in a company that is already publicly traded. In contrast, the alternative will be to wait much longer to see if AMR's management's plan will be approved, and costs and losses will continue on in bankruptcy court. However, I don't see the court forcing management to move on this yet, and the AMR Board/management do not want to give up control. So if the creditors do not start making some noise soon, I would not expect a quick exit from Ch. 11.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 31):
Honestly...if you are really a college student, you have ZERO clue how the economy has changed since 2001.

Because all college students are anti capitalist freaks who simply waste their time in their own fantasy land, right? I may be a college student, but unlike many others, I tend to stay informed and read about events and why they happen. Perhaps you have ZERO clue as to how many informed students there might be in the world. Besides, I am entitled to my opinion, or has a law been passed that I wasn't aware of?

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 31):
Most people would have been fortunate to have taken AA employees' haircuts to pay and benefits.

Good they took pay cuts. Now what? More paycuts? Work for free so the airline doesn't bleed more money? Just how long and how much should pilots give up? Have the board members taken cuts?

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 31):
It's difficult to stand your ground for an extended time in a capitalist economy when there are millions out there willing to do your job for less and they would be happy to get the opportunity...

Now here's the irony: with the cost of living soaring and wages not keeping up with it, how can anyone settle to work for less when competitors flying the same aircraft on the same route earn much more? Unless you train a foreigner and have him work hours and hours per week (far more than it's allowed) for a mere wage, I fail to see how anyone would want to work for a company with an uncertain future.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 35):
While you make valid points and there will always be people willing to do your job for less the fact remains that after years of abuse from management asking for concessions then you give concessions and watch them line their pockets with millions and slap you in the face then ask for more. Something has to give.

Thank you. This is the point I was trying to bring.

Quoting skedguy (Reply 39):
give tens of thousands of dollars in business to AA every year out of my own pocket, and I'm steaming mad about the outcome of the vote today.

But you don't give the tens of thousands to the pilots personally. You give them to the airline. Only a very small fraction reaches the pilots. Odds are that after all costs are taken into account, the executives rake in more than half of what remains.

Quoting skedguy (Reply 39):
Would I divert international premium ticket purchases to another carrier if operations at AA were to suffer due to labor strife? Absolutely.

Then why be mad? It's like Chick-fil-A's decision with a social issue. Am I mad about them taking such a position? Yes, but I respect them and there are other places that sell fried chicken so I'll take my business elsewhere. Simple.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:06 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 44):
They reached a TA with US, didn't they?

Did that include the combined seniority list?

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 38):
If write ups spike and they are all legitimate, the company can't exactly get an injunction ordering crews to fly broken airplanes. If sick calls spike and those pilots get an MD to write an excuse (CBA's usually have language regarding this)

In other words pilots have no leverage, unless they can magically give everyone the flu.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Revelation
Posts: 13827
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 38):
If write ups spike and they are all legitimate, the company can't exactly get an injunction ordering crews to fly broken airplanes.
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 38):
Simply put, no court is going to order a pilot or pilot group to break the law.

Right, but we have seen that courts will punish union leaders severely till the "spike" subsides.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 46):
Per the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram, DFW and ORD were the only two pilot bases voting for the new contract. I think the large vote against the contract will make it difficult for the court to impose a contract on the pilots as a practical matter.

I don't see it. I'm sure the judge will listen to requests for more time to negotiate, but if both sides say they can't agree, the judge surely will impose a contract.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
eaglepower83
Posts: 357
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:22 pm

ALL of management needs to take a haircut too if they want labor to play ball.

My last company did that in the recession. All staff took 10% pay cuts, no raises until further notice. 10% layoffs.
Senior mgmt all took 20% paycuts.
Everyone was actually content to take some cuts to save the company and our jobs since it was "all around" and fair.

But it seems in these large corporations, they squeeze labor, and then give themselves RAISES!
That's BS. Of course nobody will play ball in that atmosphere.

I can see both sides of this. AA's labor costs are too high, making them uncompetitive.
But the staff have been severely burned in the past so they're angry and rightly so.
While at the same time, like someone mentioned, I bet there's a lot of pilots at other airlines (Republic, cough, cough) that would LOVE to work for this new AA contract the rank and file have struck down.
What do you do about that?
 
DashTrash
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RE: AA Pilots Reject Contract

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:27 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 50):
Right, but we have seen that courts will punish union leaders severely till the "spike" subsides.

I've never once seen a union "leader" get punished for anything. I've seen a case where DAL pilots stopped picking up open time on their own accord and ALPA getting fined over it and some injunctions here and there, but that's about it.

What I'm trying to say is both sides have their playbooks. Both sides have proven tried and true tactics.

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