ZKOJH
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CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:00 am

New Planes on the UK-OZ market :

'' China Southern to run Airbus A380, Boeing 787 on Sydney-London route''

China Southern plans to bring both the Airbus A380 and Boeing 787 Dreamliner onto its Sydney-London 'Canton Route'.

Speaking at the opening of China Southern's Sydney office this evening -- an event deliberately timed for the auspicious date of 8/8 -- the airline's president and CEO Mr Tan Wangeng, said "We will spare no effort in building the Canton Route into a premium product, using new Airbus A380 superjumbo and Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft."

China Southern, which is Asia's largest airline, has three A380s in its fleet and orders for two more, along with 10 Boeing 787s due to begin flying later this year.

read the full story at

http://www.ausbt.com.au/china-southe...-boeing-787-on-sydney-london-route
Vietnam time..
 
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legacyins
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:16 am

when are they expected to receive their first 787 and what are the projected delivery dates of their last (2) A380.

With the start of their A380 service to LAX this autumn, they could launch their London service with the remaining A380.
 
AA7295
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:24 am

Is there really that much demand for all these airlines?

I'm pretty sure most people in Australia would not want to fly a Chinese airline. We're price conscious... but not that price-conscious.

Heck, people will laugh at you even if you drive a Made In China car!
 
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EK413
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:25 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Thread starter):
'' China Southern to run Airbus A380, Boeing 787 on Sydney-London route''

has three A380s in its fleet and orders for two more

Is that a sufficient amount of A380s to operate SYD, LAX & LHR...?

EK413
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Lufthansa
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:31 am

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 2):

Is there really that much demand for all these airlines?

I'm pretty sure most people in Australia would not want to fly a Chinese airline. We're price conscious... but not that price-conscious.

Heck, people will laugh at you even if you drive a Made In China car!

Business Class for $4800 on the A380 and 787 and you bet they'll start considering it. You may not realise this but
china southern also understands the cultural 'issues' and is starting to address them. They're setting up both Aussie, Japanese, Korean and French crew bases as they expand. Sure it costs them more but they've got the rest of their costs far below their western competitors and it enables them to serve their customers "in their own culture'. It's a leaf straight out of Emirates book.
 
N14AZ
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:39 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 1):
when are they expected to receive their first 787 and what are the projected delivery dates of their last (2) A380.

CZ #4 (MSN 088) is already in Hamburg for cabin outfitting and has been already spotted on the flightline in full colours. However, test and acceptance flights after cabin outfitting have not yet started. Depending on how CZ is dealing with the preliminary wing fix issue, delivery should be at the end of September 2012 or October 2012.

CZ #5 (MSN 120) is inside the Final Assembly Line since beginning of June 2012. Delivery can be expected in May or June 2013.
 
TC957
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:40 am

Wow - an interesting development and option for LHR - SYD. I think they will have a tough time against all the established options and existing A380 operators. Extensive marketing, promotion and travel industry support will be needed to get the flying public thinking CZ as a good option when requesting flights. Also the question of stopovers, a lot of people like to break the trip in cities like DXB, SIN, BKK, HKG etc , but Guangzhou ? OK, I've not been there, needing a visa will deter many for starters.
I'm thinking that concentrating on AMS or CDG - SYD might have been a better strategy, at least they could have had Skyteam feed, and a few less competitors.
 
EBGflyer
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:50 am

Does that mean that PEK-HKG will not operate with the A388?
Future flights: CPH-BKK-MNL; MNL-GUM-TKK-PNI-KSA-KWA-MAJ-HNL-LAX
 
scouseflyer
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:54 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 3):

Is that a sufficient amount of A380s to operate SYD, LAX & LHR...?

just, I wonder if we're going to see some more of these ordered when China and the EU sort out thier little tiff over emissions
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:15 am

This surely means 787 LHR-CAN and A380 CAN-SYD.

An A380 on LHR-CAN is a disaster waiting to happen even for them.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
smi0006
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:41 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 9):
This surely means 787 LHR-CAN and A380 CAN-SYD.

Indeed I am sure that is the case. What capacity do they currently have on the route? 2 x A330s? or 1x A330 and 1 x777 daily?

I wonder how long before we see MEL return to double daily A330s or if we see a 777 on the night departure which is far more popular due to domestic Chinese connections and increasingly European and Asian ones.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:42 am

We only get their A332 and even then i dont think its daily - could be wrong.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
smi0006
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:52 am

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 10):
Indeed I am sure that is the case. What capacity do they currently have on the route? 2 x A330s? or 1x A330 and 1 x777 daily?
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 11):
We only get their A332 and even then i dont think its daily - could be wrong.

My apologies I wasn't very clear. I meant CAN-SYD not CAN-LHR.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:54 am

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 10):
I wonder how long before we see MEL return to double daily A330s or if we see a 777 on the night departure which is far more popular due to domestic Chinese connections and increasingly European and Asian ones.

I think they run double daily seasonally only, or that was atleast the plan.

They expanded quite fast into MEL, from 3 weekly to daily and then straight up to 2 x daily not long after. It then fell back to 11 x weekly, then 10 weekly, and for a short time daily. Its back up to 10 x weekly the last time I saw. I guess this points to inconsistent loads throughout the year, but with significant peaks.

China-MEL routes are growing significantly, however they are still far behind SYD.
 
jumpjets
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:13 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 9):
This surely means 787 LHR-CAN and A380 CAN-SYD.

This would seem logical - with only 4 A332s a week on the LHR route at present - rising to daily this winter - to introduce an A380 in the short term would, unless CZ have identified huge untapped demand for the route, seem to be commercially unfeasible.
 
Nimish
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:29 am

Interesting that this routing is marginally shorter than the other routings (and yes - the DEL one is pure fantasy for now).

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lhr-can...-Dxb-syd,+lhr-sin-syd,+lhr-del-syd

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=lhr-can-syd,+lhr-Dxb-syd,+lhr-sin-syd,+lhr-del-syd&MS=wls&MR=1200&MX=720x360&PM=*

2 segment path LHR-CAN-SYD: 10575 mi
2 segment path LHR-DEL-SYD: 10667 mi
2 segment path LHR-SIN-SYD: 10672 mi
2 segment path LHR-DXB-SYD: 10901 mi
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qf002
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:44 am

I'm not quite sure why CZ is making such a big deal about this (well, I do -- they want lots of free press). But it really isn't a big deal that another airline will be flying new planes between Australia and Europe...

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 10):
Indeed I am sure that is the case. What capacity do they currently have on the route? 2 x A330s? or 1x A330 and 1 x777 daily?

Double daily A330's (only one is a daily A333, the other is a mixture of A333's and A332's).

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 13):
I think they run double daily seasonally only, or that was atleast the plan.

I thought they went up to double daily for our summer, then never dropped back?

Quoting Nimish (Reply 15):

The 3hr connection through CAN still makes for a longer trip overall though. The majority of airlines offer sub-2hr connection from SYD to LHR.
 
VC315
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:56 am

My understanding of CZ's Canton Route is it does not serve LHR exclusively. CZ also flies to CDG and AMS from CAN, and it seems like they are both doing okay for CZ. Thus, it makes sense for CZ to put A380 on CAN-SYD,at least makes it seasonal. CZ might well be rotating their A380s on the LAX/SYD routes, while I do not believe CAN-LAX can sustain a daily A380 service, it however should do just fine during summer (in fact, their Y product on this route is by no means any cheaper than CX, despite the product is quite 'ancient'), and they can always switch back to B777s (and for everyone's sake, they need to refit those aircrafts) once the PAX cools down during the winter. Same principle applies to SYD. If this becomes the case, then CZ‘s 5 A380s will be sufficient for them, at least for quite a few years (until they have enough feed from down under to one of the european cities, and after they open CNS and ADL).

I agree that CZ will deploy their B787s on CAN-LHR after they move up to daily service in OCT. I've also heard discussion on CZ negotiating better slots at LHR, since the new slots they have for daily LHR are not exactly transit-friendly.

Also, I believe CZ has put up some strong efforts in expanding the Australian market, it looks like it has established a local marketing team here. So far, we've seen quite a few billboards in capital cities, the launch of new website, local FA crews, sponsoring Sydney Ferrython and several other cultural events.

I actually hope CZ can do well on its Canton Route as the cost of flying from Australia to Europe is way too high IMO.

[Edited 2012-08-09 05:09:12]
 
yodobashi
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:50 am

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 2):
Heck, people will laugh at you even if you drive a Made In China car!

So these laughing people don't use computers then, given that the majority are Made in China?

Friends of ours flew China Southern last year within China and likened it to the service you used to get 20 years ago in Europe .... doesn't sound all bad to me!
"The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page"
 
AA7295
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:31 am

Quoting yodobashi (Reply 18):

So these laughing people don't use computers then, given that the majority are Made in China?

My computer says "Made in Malaysia".
 
airbazar
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:46 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 15):
Interesting that this routing is marginally shorter than the other routings

Not that surprising considering how close CAN is to HKG, which for years has been the closest to the GC route.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:18 pm

So that leaves QV as the only carrier not connecting LHR and SYD over Asia  ? I'm sure the yield is great for everyone 
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Tdan
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:29 pm

Hmm, international to international connectivity, visa required, already tons of competition by the best (and cheapest long-haul CASM) carriers in the world, what could possibly go wrong with this strategy? Does CAN have sterile I to I connectivity? I know PEK didn't...domestic to international connections and v.v. were even a pain
We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
 
MaverickM11
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 22):
Does CAN have sterile I to I connectivity?

The Chinese airports--and carriers--are a mess; even domestic-domestic connections require you to leave security, at least for me in KWL, CAN, and KMG. When I arrived in CAN on a domestic flight everyone was funneled out to baggage claim essentially; anyone making a connection had to start over and go back through security.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
VC315
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 22):


I'm more than sure that you do NOT need a visa for a transit under 24 hours, however, you cannot leave the airport. Otherwise,there are Visas on Arrival (Transit Visa and probably a Tourist Visa as well) you can apply if you need leave the airport.

Still, the policy for transiting through Shanghai (both SHA and PVG) sounds much more friendly as not only you could leave the airport, also you got an extra 24 hours. I don't see why this policy would't be adapted at CAN in the near future.

They just started the expansion at CAN, adding a 2nd Terminal and 3rd runway. According to the original proposal (not sure if this is still the case), all International flights will move to Terminal 2 once it's ready, and that should solve the problem with flight connections.

[Edited 2012-08-10 08:14:45]

[Edited 2012-08-10 08:16:40]
 
Tdan
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:12 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):
The Chinese airports--and carriers--are a mess; even domestic-domestic connections require you to leave security, at least for me in KWL, CAN, and KMG. When I arrived in CAN on a domestic flight everyone was funneled out to baggage claim essentially; anyone making a connection had to start over and go back through security.

That's what I thought. I had the same experience in PEK and would pay a premium to transit HKG, ICN, NRT, etc any day of the week over a Chinese airport. So back to the point - How does CZ intend to compete for LHR-SYD flow traffic and build CAN-SYD into a 'premium product'? The only way is to buy traffic which is never sustainable in any industry.
We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
 
Akiestar
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting VC315 (Reply 24):
I'm more than sure that you do NOT need a visa for a transit under 24 hours, however, you cannot leave the airport. Otherwise,there are Visas on Arrival (Transit Visa and probably a Tourist Visa as well) you can apply if you need leave the airport.

For CAN, your connection should be within the same day. Now with the number of overnight flights that leave CAN (CAN-CDG on CZ, for example, leaves shortly after midnight), this will not always be enforced, but do be aware.

However, based on what I do know, CAN is experimenting with international-international transfers which do not involve going through Chinese immigration. Not sure how that experiment is working out, but it could bide well for CZ in the future.

Quoting VC315 (Reply 24):
Still, the policy for transiting through Shanghai (both SHA and PVG) sounds much more friendly as not only you could leave the airport, also you got an extra 24 hours. I don't see why this policy would't be adapted at CAN in the near future.

Shanghai has two airports, and people do transfer between Hongqiao and Pudong (and vice-versa). Guangzhou only has one airport with one big terminal. What's the point then of needing such a long connection?

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the policy at Shanghai is a policy of the municipal government of Shanghai, and will likely not be replicated by other Chinese cities unless there's good reason to. (The 24-hour entry passes which are issued at the likes of PEK don't really count in this regard.)
 
BestWestern
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:48 pm

China is built on a point to point system, so transits are a tiny proportion of the traffic base today - but this will change. CAPA wrote extensivly on the plans of CZ a few months ago.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):
Chinese airports--and carriers--are a mess; even domestic-domestic connections require you to leave security, at least for me in KWL, CAN, and KMG. When I arrived in CAN on a domestic flight everyone was funneled out to baggage claim essentially; anyone making a connection had to start over and go back through security.

Which is the same in most European airports too - very very few airports outside of America allow domestic to domestic passengers to not go through security. Pudong Terminal 2, Beijing Terminal 1 are two examples that don't use this, amongst others, like Chendu.

Transiting in Guangzhou is not that difficult, but can be improved. Intl - Dom is quite easy, but does involve collecting baggage, and re-check within the baggage hall, with a golf cart to the gate. CZ have an international transit lounge just for economy transit passengers too.

I'm not sure what the process is in the new Kunming airport. As for KWE - it's hardly a mega transit hub.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
LondonCity
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:17 pm

Only two days later and CZ has had a change of plan. In this news piece in the same magazine, CZ says it will use the B787 to London. No mention now of the A380.



http://www.ausbt.com.au/sydney-to-lo...boeing-787-yes-says-china-southern
 
MaverickM11
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 27):
Which is the same in most European airports too - very very few airports outside of America allow domestic to domestic passengers to not go through security.

  Other than international > domestic I've really never experienced this outside of China.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 27):
China is built on a point to point system, so transits are a tiny proportion of the traffic base today -

It's a bit symbolic of Chinese aviation in general: great looking infrastructure but not functional or well thought out, and bound to be blown to smithereens if the sector ever deregulates.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:35 am

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 28):
Only two days later and CZ has had a change of plan. In this news piece in the same magazine, CZ says it will use the B787 to London. No mention now of the A380.

It seems more like a wishlist than any confirmed plan. I wouldn't read into any of these announcements for quite a while to come. Things change very quickly in aviation.
 
coolfish1103
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:21 am

788 to SYD will work, 388 sounds a bit too big unless they merge flights.

788 to LHR will also work, and 388 sounds like a dream for CZ to even have that much customers.

We will see how LAX run first with 388 since they can't even fill that plane up when its a 772. Maybe they will need a bunch of discounted transit passengers to get that thing filled...
 
acedriver
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:31 am

Quoting Nimish (Reply 15):

Interesting that this routing is marginally shorter than the other routings (and yes - the DEL one is pure fantasy for now).

Will be interesting to see how CZ will do against CX, as LHR-HKG-SYD and LHR-CAN-SYD has pretty much exactly the same distance.
Personally I reckon CX will probably be better off due to the quick transfer at HKG, and the better service quality - A few years back I was traveling PEK-HKG-LHR (weird connection I know, switched to BA's direct flight afterwards). I had 1.5hrs between the flights, but arrived into HKG an hour late, hurried through security, and when I arrived at the gate it was about 10 mins before boarding. If the same thing happened in CAN or PEK, I would probably have to watch the plane pushback....
 
Akiestar
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:42 am

Quoting acedriver (Reply 32):
A few years back I was traveling PEK-HKG-LHR (weird connection I know, switched to BA's direct flight afterwards). I had 1.5hrs between the flights, but arrived into HKG an hour late, hurried through security, and when I arrived at the gate it was about 10 mins before boarding. If the same thing happened in CAN or PEK, I would probably have to watch the plane pushback....

I flew MNL-CAN-CDG on CZ and AF two years ago, where my MNL-CAN flight was 45 minutes late and I only had a 75-minute layover between flights. When I arrived in CAN, a CZ ground staff member held a sign up with my name, whisked me through immigration and the security checkpoint, and we walked briskly towards the gate. I was one of the last, if not the last, passengers to board my CAN-CDG flight.

That was the first time I've flown CZ, and I've had nothing but respect for them ever since. This is why I'd happily fly them to Europe again if I could. It's not as luxurious as some of the other airlines I've had the chance to fly on intercontinental flights, but they seem to be doing well.

[Edited 2012-08-11 21:45:52]
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: CZ Putting 787 And A380 On LHR-SYD Route VV

Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:48 am

Quoting acedriver (Reply 32):
Will be interesting to see how CZ will do against CX, as LHR-HKG-SYD and LHR-CAN-SYD has pretty much exactly the same distance.

The main benefit CX has is that it flies into HKG, which is a major business and tourist hub on its own. CAN does not yet offer anywhere near the same market strength.

Thus, CX does not have to push quite as hard for transit pax to maintain its services, keeping yields and demand higher.

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