LIPZ
Topic Author
Posts: 483
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:29 am

AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:03 pm

Seems like AF is evaluating to launch new European destinations out of Orly airport in order to focus more on the p2p side for some larger routes.

New routes to begin with should be

- Athens
- Casablanca
- Istanbul/Ataturk
- Rome/Fiumicino


more (in French only)
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...ternationaux-au-depart-d-orly.html
 
leftyboarder
Posts: 752
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:38 pm

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:22 pm

Again? They have tried and failed for the most part out of TLS, MRS and NCE. NCE-IST never launched, MRS-IST got axed and TLS-IST reduced. And yet they are trying from ORY. Turkish travelers who had to use this airport for years on TK would not be delighted.
 
AirGAbon
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:34 pm

Instead they should keep the current AF mainline operations from CDG and to operate from ORY with Transavia B738 by adding flights to various destinations such as BCN, IST, MAD, ATH, CMN, FCO, TXL, LIS etc.
 
Rara
Posts: 2296
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:36 pm

It baffles me why anyone travelling from Europe to a French destination other than Paris would choose Air France. Perhaps they're adressing this by directing the feeder flights to ORY. As long as it doesn't diminish their more important long-haul feeders into CDG, I don't see why this wouldn't be a good idea.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
runway23
Posts: 1947
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:22 pm

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 2):
Instead they should keep the current AF mainline operations from CDG and to operate from ORY with Transavia B738 by adding flights to various destinations such as BCN, IST, MAD, ATH, CMN, FCO, TXL, LIS etc.

The goal according to the article is to use the A320s that fly domestic in the morning and evening, but do not fly much during the middle of the day (I rather read this to say - flying very unprofitably during the middle of the day). Air France plans to launch flights between the morning and evening domestic wave. It seems this would also result in one less flight from CDG, during the middle of the day, to the destinations they would serve from ORY.

Of course this doesn't leave much as choice and the routes will probably end up being:

-high leisure oriented routes
-routed with a lot of demand but not much high yield. Thus quite price sensitive
-Not addressing the fact that AF's costs are way above any other European carrier.
-Reducing the attractiveness of their existing domestic shuttle flights as the number of flights will be further reduced, as the slots have to come from somewhere.
-Reducing the attractiveness of their CDG hub. As it will lead to longer transfer times between flights that will be split between ORY and CDG, less opportunity to hop onto an earlier flight and potentially lower yield.
-Poor marketing by AF to clearly define and communicate what their European product offers, though this is a network wide problem, not only limited to potential venture from ORY.

Whilst the idea isn't bad, due to the above and most importantly AF's high costs, this will probably have the same outcome as their various failed attempts from MRS, NCE, TLS. That is to say, will last a few months then be discontinued.
 
leftyboarder
Posts: 752
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:38 pm

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 4):
The goal according to the article is to use the A320s that fly domestic in the morning and evening, but do not fly much during the middle of the day (I rather read this to say - flying very unprofitably during the middle of the day). Air France plans to launch flights between the morning and evening domestic wave. It seems this would also result in one less flight from CDG, during the middle of the day, to the destinations they would serve from ORY.

Of course this doesn't leave much as choice and the routes will probably end up being:

-high leisure oriented routes
-routed with a lot of demand but not much high yield. Thus quite price sensitive
-Not addressing the fact that AF's costs are way above any other European carrier.
-Reducing the attractiveness of their existing domestic shuttle flights as the number of flights will be further reduced, as the slots have to come from somewhere.
-Reducing the attractiveness of their CDG hub. As it will lead to longer transfer times between flights that will be split between ORY and CDG, less opportunity to hop onto an earlier flight and potentially lower yield.
-Poor marketing by AF to clearly define and communicate what their European product offers, though this is a network wide problem, not only limited to potential venture from ORY.

Whilst the idea isn't bad, due to the above and most importantly AF's high costs, this will probably have the same outcome as their various failed attempts from MRS, NCE, TLS. That is to say, will last a few months then be discontinued.

Perfect points. AF should know better not to split its main base and reduce connectivity for cities like ATH, IST, MOW... These cities get around 3-4 dailies, which is not so many that moving one or two to ORY will not be felt. In my opinion, multiple airport operations from a single city only work if markets are really segregated. BA can manage LGW with leisure traffic and LCY with a very limited focus on business oriented O&D traffic. And there aren't that many other examples to mention.
 
runway23
Posts: 1947
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:50 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 5):
Perfect points. AF should know better not to split its main base and reduce connectivity for cities like ATH, IST, MOW... These cities get around 3-4 dailies, which is not so many that moving one or two to ORY will not be felt. In my opinion, multiple airport operations from a single city only work if markets are really segregated. BA can manage LGW with leisure traffic and LCY with a very limited focus on business oriented O&D traffic. And there aren't that many other examples to mention.

Yes BA is probably the only other airline who has used this strategy in Europe. However like you say there is very little overlap and the entire operation is quite well balanced.

However, Paris and London are two different markets. The distance from central Paris to Orly and CDG is not that different, at least not to a point of massively favoring one over the other. That cannot be said of LHR, LCY and LGW (airports further located from each other and serving different demographics and areas).

BA does have a growing leisure component from LCY, however this complements LGW and LHR operations and based on a lower cost base than what AF will have.

Perhaps AF should reduce the size of their fleet in ORY and make more use of Transavia (similar to AZ with AirOne), if they really want to effectively compete with easyJet and co. They could also make more use of Britair/regional during the afternoon to maintain frequencies on their shuttle routes whilst providing a capacity that is more in line with the weaker demand at those times.
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5192
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:42 am

Funny to see how it is possible to talk talk and talk about a wrong and inaccurate information.

Air France is "not thinking" to launch some ORY-Europe flights ... Air France WILL TRANSFER some frequencies from CDG to ORY.

Very few flights and destinations are concerned : SVO, ATH, CMN, IST and FCO as far as I know.
And the reason is very simple : Air France operates several Daily frequencies to these cities from CDG. Most of them are connecting to/from Long haul AF network flights at CDG but some are used almost exclusively by p2p passengers, as they are scheduled out of the "Hub waves".

ORY has always been much more praised than CDG by passengers with Paris as final / Origin destination.

As simple as that.

AF has already started Europe fights from ORY 2 or 3 years to BCN (3 x Daily operated by Brit'Air ) and LIN (3 x Daily operated by AZ)

Concerning TRANSAVIA, the "deal" with AF is clear : TRANSAVIA FRANCE clearly oriented toward the "leisure market" and is not allowed to operate flights to destinations already served by AF
 
AIR MALTA
Posts: 1737
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 6:45 am

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:40 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
Concerning TRANSAVIA, the "deal" with AF is clear : TRANSAVIA FRANCE clearly oriented toward the "leisure market" and is not allowed to operate flights to destinations already served by AF

Not correct... Transavia is operating ORY-TUN while AF operates CDG-TUN.
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 7955
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:05 am

About the cost structure of AF, there is already a plan to address that.

About new flights at ORY, I don't know if it makes sense, but since I'm living 20 minutes from it while CDG is quite far for me, I'm glad ! I just brought my sister there, but for a Corsair International flight.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
heebeegb
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:01 pm

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:19 am

The BA example may be true but they are losing shed loads if money out of LGW
 
Humberside
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:44 am

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:09 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
AF has already started Europe fights from ORY 2 or 3 years to BCN (3 x Daily operated by Brit'Air ) and LIN (3 x Daily operated by AZ)

Plus the Airlinair operated Berne service. There is also the longer established Cityjet service to LCY
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
stylo777
Posts: 2013
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:56 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
Air France WILL TRANSFER some frequencies from CDG to ORY.

when are they going to transfer all those flights? already for upcoming winterschedule? which of the flights are concered?
 
goldenargosy
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:43 am

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:09 pm

In addition to the AF European flights being redirected to ORY, I would really like to see AF take just one of their many JFK- CDG flights and transfer it to ORY. For U.S. passengers with Paris as a final destination this would seem to be the preferable option over the very busy GDG. I flew JFK- ORY in the early '80s on Pan Am and it was a great/simple experience. More relaxing than the delays and hassles I experience each time I fly in to CDG,
 
spud757
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:20 pm

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:14 am

Quoting goldenargosy (Reply 13):

Fly ORY-EWR with OpenSkies (part of BA)

Do AF still have the JV on ORY-SOU with BE?
 
goldorak
Posts: 1369
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights

Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:26 pm

Quoting spud757 (Reply 14):
Do AF still have the JV on ORY-SOU with BE?

not a JV but a code-share agreement (and not limited to this single route)

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos