alexinwa
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UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:53 pm

I've been looking at historical data but it is hard to answer my question.

When did UA/NW/CO have the largest active DC10 fleet? I think for UA it was around 1994? CO would of been 1996? And NW about 1996/97?

Didn't CO pick up some NW birds before the 762/764 came online?

Thanks, Alex
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United1
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:08 pm

Quoting alexinwa (Thread starter):
I think for UA it was around 1994?

UAs DC-10 fleet was fairly constant from around 1986 until they started retiring them around the mid 90's. There were 47 DC-10-10's and 8 DC-10-30's at the peak. There were also a few DC-10-30ER's that were leased in from CP for a few years when UA started transpacific routes from SEA/PDX.
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RWA380
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 1):
There were also a few DC-10-30ER's that were leased in from CP for a few years when UA started transpacific routes from SEA/PDX

IIRC, the ORD-SEA/PDX-NRT flights on UA operated with a 747, I flew the ORD-PDX leg once on a trip back from IAD.
The DC-10-30ER aircraft would have been used on UA's SEA-HKG service that started later than NRT being UA's first Trans-Pacific service before they bought PA's routes.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:43 pm

NW's operated 2 sub-fleets of DC-10s.

The DC10-40s Northwest had were older than the DC10-30s. The -40 was originally supposed to be designated the -20, but Northwest had it changed. All of the -40s were delivered from 1972-1974 to Northwest and were retired rather abruptly in the post 9/11 downturn between 2001-2002. The 757-300 was ordered in 2001, with deliveries starting in 2002 to be the replacement to the DC-10-40s. The -40's initially were used for domestic trunk routes, the limited Trans-Atlantic network (pre-KLM alliance), and on some Trans-Pacific routes. After NW started acquiring -30's, the lower-performance -40s were resigned to domestic trunk routes and Hawaii routes (with the occasional sub on international routes).
The DC-10-40 fleet peaked (+/-) 22 frames.

The DC10-30s were are acquired second-hand by NW starting in the early-90s up through 2000. When NW formed the alliance with KLM they rapidly needed aircraft to expand their growing Trans-Atlantic flying and to feed the AMS hub. NW originally ordered A330s and A340s at the turn of the decade, but had fallen on bad financial times and essentially could not afford to get the new aircraft, so the order was perpetually deffered (and actually became the current order for the A330s which were delivered starting in 2003). The -30s that are still in the fleet were manufactured anywhere from 1975 all the way up to 1988. The last of the -30s were acquired in 2000 and the DC10-30 fleet peaked at (+/-) 22 frames. The A330 order with deliveries starting in 2003. The -30s started to be retired as the A330s were delivered, with them last DC10 ultimately being retired in January 2007.

NW's DC-10 fleet, combined, peaked in 2000 at (+/-) 44 aircraft.
 
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ER757
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):
IIRC, the ORD-SEA/PDX-NRT flights on UA operated with a 747

That's correct. ORD/SEA/NRT most days, ORD/PDX/NRT once a week (I think it was Tuesday but it was a long time ago). Westbound flight #150, eastbound #151. Flew ORD/SEA/ORD leg many times
 
dtw9
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:48 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 1):
UAs DC-10 fleet was fairly constant from around 1986 until they started retiring them around the mid 90's. There were 47 DC-10-10's

United had 48 DC-10-10. N1848U was a DC-10-10CF for the CRAF fleet, the rest were DC-10-10's

[Edited 2012-08-10 11:49:11]
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:17 am

IIRC, many of the DC-10-30s that CO added came from European carriers, such as KLM, Alitalia and SAS (edit - SwissAir, too?). There was at least one from Garuda, too, again IIRC.

It's been a long time since I had a discussion about CO's DC-10s; one of my buddies flew them for a while, he'd know better than me.

Also, I think the Fedex DC-10-10CF that burned at SWF was originally a CO airplane:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...ef.aspx?ev_id=20001208X06712&key=1

[Edited 2012-08-10 18:18:11]
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TrijetsRMissed
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:22 am

Quoting ER757 (Reply 4):
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):
IIRC, the ORD-SEA/PDX-NRT flights on UA operated with a 747

That's correct. ORD/SEA/NRT most days, ORD/PDX/NRT once a week (I think it was Tuesday but it was a long time ago). Westbound flight #150, eastbound #151. Flew ORD/SEA/ORD leg many times

I flew ORD-SEA-ORD in the summer of '95. Both legs were DC-10-30s, which I believe operated the NRT routing.

Quoting alexinwa (Thread starter):
I think for UA it was around 1994? CO would of been 1996? And NW about 1996/97?

Didn't CO pick up some NW birds before the 762/764 came online?

IIRC, UA's fleet was 55 strong up to 1997. I think CO continued to acquire DC-10s after 1996, however they were not the cream of the crop that NW were able to get. Some were very long in tooth, (i.e. 20+ years old with a number of previous operators), when CO acquired them in the late '90s. Hard to fathom, given the model CO used in the 2000's.

On a side-note, the largest DC-10 fleet for any airline was AA, topping at 59 active. From the late 80's into 1993-94.
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codc10
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:09 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 7):
I think CO continued to acquire DC-10s after 1996,

Correct. CO picked up about 15-20 DC-10-30 in 1996/97 to support international expansion from EWR/IAH, account for 747/DC-10-10 retirements and to fill the gap before the start of 777 deliveries in 1998.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 7):
however they were not the cream of the crop that NW were able to get.

Some were in pretty rough shape. CO had a spate of serious DC-10 incidents in the 1997-2000 timeframe, including a few engine fires and multiple uncontained failures. Some of the affected birds were these 'stopgap' additions.
 
N174UA
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:27 am

UA operated PDX-NRT between 1983 and 1986. It was part of the "Royal Pacific Service" and was a 742. It operated on Tuesdays and Thursdays only, and there was a tag to ORD, as previously noted. The other days, it was SEA-NRT, which was eventually taken away and given to Continental by then-DOT Secretary Elizabeth Dole, likely a favor to her crony, Frank Lorenzo. A lot of bitterness at UAL about that. CO eventually gave it up, and UA got it back.

UA operated SEA-HKG with a DC-10-30, as early as June 1983. I know that because I came up for a weekend trip, and remember seeing it parked at N1 or N2.
 
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RWA380
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:23 am

Quoting ER757 (Reply 4):
That's correct. ORD/SEA/NRT most days, ORD/PDX/NRT once a week (I think it was Tuesday but it was a long time ago).

Correct back to you, Tuesday was the only day of the week the NRT flights on UA operated, the two 747's would cross paths at PDX sitting side by side, one heading to NRT and one to ORD.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 7):
I flew ORD-SEA-ORD in the summer of '95. Both legs were DC-10-30s, which I believe operated the NRT routing.

DC-10's were not used to NRT, they used the DC-10-30's to HKG from SEA only. The original Trans Pacific route from UA was the aforementioned ORD-SEA/PDX-NRT flight. 6 days a week via SEA and Tuesdays via PDX.

Quoting N174UA (Reply 9):
UA operated PDX-NRT between 1983 and 1986. It was part of the "Royal Pacific Service" and was a 742. It operated on Tuesdays and Thursdays only, and there was a tag to ORD, as previously noted.

All correct, except it operated only once a week on Tuesdays.

Quoting N174UA (Reply 9):
UA operated SEA-HKG with a DC-10-30, as early as June 1983. I know that because I came up for a weekend trip, and remember seeing it parked at N1 or N2.

Correct, the DC-10-30's UA leased from CP were used to HKG. Keep in mind UA DC-10-30's showed up at many different stations throughout the system.
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quiet1
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:31 am

Quoting N174UA (Reply 9):
UA operated PDX-NRT between 1983 and 1986. It was part of the "Royal Pacific Service" and was a 742

I thought UA only had 747-100's until after PacDay? ISTR the first 747-200s were the pair bought specifically to operate JFK-NRT-JFK, and then later some more -200s were bought from QF.
 
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ER757
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:53 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 7):
I flew ORD-SEA-ORD in the summer of '95. Both legs were DC-10-30s, which I believe operated the NRT routing.

By that time US had started direct ORD/NRT service with the 744 and thus dis-continued their ORD/SEA/NRT 747 service.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 10):
Correct back to you, Tuesday was the only day of the week the NRT flights on UA operated,

Wow, this old man isn't as senile as I thought   

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 10):
the two 747's would cross paths at PDX sitting side by side, one heading to NRT and one to ORD.

It was the same in SEA - seeing two UA 747's together someplace other than ORD, HNL or SFO was pretty cool back in those days.
 
alexinwa
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 12):
It was the same in SEA - seeing two UA 747's together someplace other than ORD, HNL or SFO was pretty cool back in those days.

How about four 747's at SEA at the same time. Two 747-100/200's (one to ORD one to NRT) 2 747sp's One to JFK and one to HKG. This was right before the routes were discontinued and moved to SFO.

Thank you for the spec's on the DC10 fleet. So I should go back to my mid to late 90's OAG to look for my beloved DC10.
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WA707atMSP
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting N174UA (Reply 9):
The other days, it was SEA-NRT, which was eventually taken away and given to Continental by then-DOT Secretary Elizabeth Dole, likely a favor to her crony, Frank Lorenzo. A lot of bitterness at UAL about that. CO eventually gave it up, and UA got it back.

United was forced to give up SEA/PDX-NRT as a condition of their purchase of Pan Am's Pacific routes. United had been awarded SEA/PDX-NRT soley to add a third US airline to the US - Japan market. UA's takeover of PA's routes meant there would only be two US carriers flying to Japan. There were also concerns that once UA got PA's routes from California to Japan, they would not promote travel via SEA as aggressively, but CO (or AA, the other applicant for the authority) would encourage people to fly via SEA.

After a lengthy (and, as you said, politically charged) route case, the route was awarded to CO. Ironically, shortly after the route was given to CO, the Japanese Government agreed to allow new service by AA (from DFW) and DL (from ATL via PDX).

CO was unable to compete against NW on the route, in part because CO did not have any online feed at NRT, and had only minimal feed at SEA. The day CO filed Chapter XI for the 2nd time, in 1990, CO sold their SEA-NRT authority to AA.

UA resumed SEA-NRT in 1998, after the US and Japan signed a more liberal bilateral agreement. For a few years, NW, UA, and AA were all competing on the route, but AA suspended it shortly after 9/11.
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):

NW's DC-10 fleet, combined, peaked in 2000 at (+/-) 44 aircraft.

I think NW sold off three DC-10-40s in 1985 / 86, after they took delivery of their first 757-251s. If my memory is correct, an ex-NW DC-10-40 was destroyed by fire on the ground at ORD in 1986 (fortunately, when there was nobody aboard), shortly after it had been sold to American Trans Air.
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TrijetsRMissed
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 7):
IIRC, UA's fleet was 55 strong up to 1997

Correction: I think the fleet actually topped out at 54 in the early '90s. I did not account for the loss of 232.
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dtw9
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
I think NW sold off three DC-10-40s in 1985 / 86, after they took delivery of their first 757-251s. If my memory is correct, an ex-NW DC-10-40 was destroyed by fire on the ground at ORD in 1986 (fortunately, when there was nobody aboard), shortly after it had been sold to American Trans Air.

Your memory is correct. However, NW got two of the three back and they stayed with the company until they were WFU
 
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:43 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 1):
UAs DC-10 fleet was fairly constant from around 1986 until they started retiring them around the mid 90's.

5 of UA's DC10's were Delta in the early 70's before DL received the L10's & don't forget that WA had them as well.
 
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ER757
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:28 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
an ex-NW DC-10-40 was destroyed by fire on the ground at ORD in 1986 (fortunately, when there was nobody aboard), shortly after it had been sold to American Trans Air.

I remember that well - was working at ORD at the time. It was early on a Sunday AM. Don't recall exactly what the cause was but I seem to remember it was something to do with the APU. Was parked at the hardstand where international arrivals sat before T5 was built. The flight had arrived in the wee hours, everyone was off by then.
 
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:14 am

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 17):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
I think NW sold off three DC-10-40s in 1985 / 86, after they took delivery of their first 757-251s. If my memory is correct, an ex-NW DC-10-40 was destroyed by fire on the ground at ORD in 1986 (fortunately, when there was nobody aboard), shortly after it had been sold to American Trans Air.

Your memory is correct. However, NW got two of the three back and they stayed with the company until they were WFU
Quoting ER757 (Reply 19):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
an ex-NW DC-10-40 was destroyed by fire on the ground at ORD in 1986 (fortunately, when there was nobody aboard), shortly after it had been sold to American Trans Air.

I remember that well - was working at ORD at the time. It was early on a Sunday AM. Don't recall exactly what the cause was but I seem to remember it was something to do with the APU. Was parked at the hardstand where international arrivals sat before T5 was built. The flight had arrived in the wee hours, everyone was off by then.

Northwest sold three DC-10-40s. Two N143US and N144US were sold to Jet Charter Services. They were reregistered as N133JC and N144JC. They were abused pretty bad. Northwest did do the heavy checks on them and they always required major work. Northwest eventually got them back and kept their new registration numbers. N144JC was leased to Sun Country Airlines for a couple of years. Northwest flew them until they were flown to Greenwood, MS and scrapped by Maxon, along with all the remaining DC-10-40s.
N142US was sold to American Trans Air (ATA). It was reregistered as N184AT. Northwest decided it was not going to sell any more DC-10-40s after it sold the original three. ATA then started acquiring Lockheed L-1011s. Northwest was going to buy back the lone aircraft it sold to ATA. However, after what was to be it's final flight with ATA it caught fire and was destroyed at ORD. The story goes that there was passenger seat assembly in the aft bulk cargo compartment and the oxygen generator started the fire destroying the aircraft, where it was scrapped. Northwest bought the number one and three engines and pylons.   
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WA707atMSP
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:34 am

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 17):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):I think NW sold off three DC-10-40s in 1985 / 86, after they took delivery of their first 757-251s. If my memory is correct, an ex-NW DC-10-40 was destroyed by fire on the ground at ORD in 1986 (fortunately, when there was nobody aboard), shortly after it had been sold to American Trans Air.
Your memory is correct. However, NW got two of the three back and they stayed with the company until they were WFU
Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 20):
Northwest was going to buy back the lone aircraft it sold to ATA. However, after what was to be it's final flight with ATA it caught fire and was destroyed at ORD. The story goes that there was passenger seat assembly in the aft bulk cargo compartment and the oxygen generator started the fire destroying the aircraft, where it was scrapped. Northwest bought the number one and three engines and pylons.

Thanks for the updates, dtw9 and NWAROOSTER! I'd forgotten that NW bought back the two surviving aircraft they had sold.

I remember seeing pictures of the ATA DC-10 after it was destroyed by fire. It was very fortunate there was nobody aboard.

In a 1985 interview, NW's then-president, Steven Rothmeier said that NW was seriously considering replacing all of the airline's DC-10-40s by the end of the 1980s with either A300s or 767-300s, with the A300 favored due to its larger cargo capacity. At that time, NW generally retired aircraft once they were fully depreciated, and was usually able to sell them at a nice profit. However, the Republic merger and the hostile takeover altered the airline's policy. Who would have thought in 1985 that NW would keep their DC-10s in service another two decades, and neither the A300 nor the 767 would ever be flown by NW?
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GALLEYSTEW
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:25 pm

UA had so many types of the DC-10. UA's originals.....some from Laker Airways, World, CP air, some from Delta/Western, and at least one from National/Pan Am. Most of them were -10's and were configured the same. The -30's, you never knew what you were going to get. The Laker aircraft especially. Pink, orange, light green overhead bins and windmill sidewall panels. Talk about tripping! I missed the lower lobe galley on the -10's when they brought them up on main deck in the 90's. I worked down there often. Plus it freed up so much more space on the main deck for passengers to stretch. Brought galleys up, added more seats. Capacity went from 40 F/214 Y, to 28f/259Y. Remember the elevating closets at doors 2 and 3? It just was an elegant plane. To me the only draw back was not having a window down in the galley. Lockheed's L-1011 had one, plus a seperate door for loading the galley carts an such. The DC-10 had to be loaded thru the baggage compartment door in modules, which meant quite often you didn't get loaded in time for first class predeparture drinks. Sad, but the TRI HOLES are gone.
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Viscount724
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RE: UA/NW/CO DC10 Fleet Question

Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:14 pm

Quoting alexinwa (Thread starter):
Didn't CO pick up some NW birds before the 762/764 came online?

CO didn't operate any ex-NW DC-10s. Those would have been -40s which CO never operated.

Quick check of one CO fleet list shows the original delivery customer of DC-10s operated by CO as follows (apart from CO's own factory-delivered DC-10s). Many of the aircraft acquited used had several other operators between the original operator and CO.

Alitalia
Finnair
British Caledonian
Swissair
UTA
Air New Zealand
Lufthansa
Garuda
Iberia
PIA
Philippine Airlines
JAT

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