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chrisnh
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WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:04 pm

http://www.unionleader.com/article/20120811/NEWS03/708119939

The story doesn't make clear who confronted whom, but the real stories are these:
1.) The MHT TSA gang seems to enjoy being 'confrontational' and they seem to enjoy exercising their power.
2.) A TSA Supervisor, echoing #1 above, declared that the TSA employee was in the right. Also, the supervisor refused to identify himself/or herself to the captain.
3.) The Southwest captain, who would know, says that the 'inspections' at MHT are autocratically severe (my words, not his...but that's what I infer from the article.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:44 pm

Hard to tell from only this article, but after reading the article I'm inclined to say it's the pilot who is prone to confrontation. Who repeatedly gets into confrontations with even "bad" TSA? A hothead.
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:56 pm

If the TSA supervisor refused to give his name he's wrong. Anyone going thru the checkpoint is allowed to ask the screener and the supervisor for their name.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:12 pm

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 2):
If the TSA supervisor refused to give his name he's wrong. Anyone going thru the checkpoint is allowed to ask the screener and the supervisor for their name.

That's what I'm thinking. If you're quite sure of your position, you stand up to the pilot and say, "Here. Here's my card, here's my badge. You see that video camera up there? That'll back my worker up. So, your move!"

But that's not what happened.
 
lat41
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:55 pm

It is my understanding that supervisors wear badges also. It has become popular in this forum and elsewhere to TSA bash so it is no surprise that it became a story. We have probably spotted the huffy frequent or not so frequent flier or the uppity local pol, law enforcement personnel or flight crew member get a little brazen at the checkpoint. (rules dont apply to "me" type). We might even know one.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:05 pm

Oh, absolutely! There are LOTS of those 'Don't-You-Know-Who-I-Am?' types. Often, TV news types, who feel that their imagined 'celebrity' trumps all! But an airline captain...who wades through stuff several times each day at many different airports...is bound to notice (and react to) something 'out of the norm,' don't you agree?
 
HAL
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:08 pm

Quoting lat41 (Reply 4):
We have probably spotted the huffy frequent or not so frequent flier or the uppity local pol, law enforcement personnel or flight crew member get a little brazen at the checkpoint. (rules dont apply to "me" type).

The problem with that idea is that as flight crew, we know exactly what 'the rules' are. These confrontations happen when a particular airport's TSA managers decide that they don't need to follow the rules. We go through the screening process practically every day, and know exactly what to expect. Because of that, flight crews are allowed certain priviliges, like cutting to the front of the line, or using a special crew line, among other things. When those differences are not allowed, that is when flight crews can get upset.

HAL
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XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 6):
The problem with that idea is that as flight crew, we know exactly what 'the rules' are. These confrontations happen when a particular airport's TSA managers decide that they don't need to follow the rules. We go through the screening process practically every day, and know exactly what to expect. Because of that, flight crews are allowed certain priviliges, like cutting to the front of the line, or using a special crew line, among other things. When those differences are not allowed, that is when flight crews can get upset.

Bingo. It's particularly funny when the agent tries to say "it's this way everywhere" upon trying to enforce some random local rule.

The reason I'm bringing it up is because it's not that way everywhere. If it was that way everywhere, I would just shuffle along!

Smaller stations are particularly bad with the TSA napoleon complex.
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Maverick623
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:15 pm

Quote:
“A preliminary review of the situation indicates that the officer followed proper screening protocol,” said Ann Davis, TSA spokeswoman

No surprise from an agency who has never, ever, taken responsibility for anything that they or their people have done wrong.

I'm actually fairly surprised the police got the video. TSA has a habit of "losing" tapes when they break the law.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 1):
Who repeatedly gets into confrontations with even "bad" TSA? A hothead.

So it's the victim's fault. Guess we should just shut our mouths and take it...

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 7):
It's particularly funny when the agent tries to say "it's this way everywhere" upon trying to enforce some random local rule.

More often than not, it's actually "our procedures are designed to be random and unpredictable".
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chrisair
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 6):
We go through the screening process practically every day, and know exactly what to expect. Because of that, flight crews are allowed certain priviliges, like cutting to the front of the line, or using a special crew line, among other things. When those differences are not allowed, that is when flight crews can get upset.

I still wonder why the folks who fly the plane have to go through security. Get known crew member up and running everywhere. It'll make their lives easier and will help clear up the lines for us that don't fly the plane (for the record, I'm always willing to let the crew go ahead of me unless some of my stuff is in the x-ray already OR I'm running really late for a flight--I've never had a pilot/FA not be understanding in those cases).
 
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Polot
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 9):
I still wonder why the folks who fly the plane have to go through security. Get known crew member up and running everywhere. It'll make their lives easier and will help clear up the lines for us that don't fly the plane (for the record, I'm always willing to let the crew go ahead of me unless some of my stuff is in the x-ray already OR I'm running really late for a flight--I've never had a pilot/FA not be understanding in those cases).

While I support somewhat reduced security for crew members, no security for them is a terrible idea. The last thing we need is someone who is up to no good impersonating a crew member and getting to the plane without going through even a simple security check.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 10):
While I support somewhat reduced security for crew members, no security for them is a terrible idea. The last thing we need is someone who is up to no good impersonating a crew member and getting to the plane without going through even a simple security check.

How many rampers and other airport ground workers do you think go through security?
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chrisair
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 10):
The last thing we need is someone who is up to no good impersonating a crew member and getting to the plane without going through even a simple security check.

You have no idea how known crew member works. They actually verify someone's employment.
 
aztrainer
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:26 pm

Wow, This is a good one. The TSA actually gave the local police the case and the video. I agree with HAL that the flight crew knows how to operate in the security lines and would know if there is a irregularity. This pilot has had run-in's with the TSA at this airport, so his defenses were up. He did not raise his voice or call attention to himself, so it was probably a case of a TSA agent and supervisor pushing his buttons.

I feel sorry for the good TSA agents that I have run across, because they have to take the heat for actions like these from less skilled people.
 
blueflyer
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:43 pm

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 7):
It's particularly funny when the agent tries to say "it's this way everywhere" upon trying to enforce some random local rule.

For a look at a comical and clueless face, try asking when was the last time they went anywhere... Did it once. Priceless!

Quoting chrisair (Reply 12):
You have no idea how known crew member works. They actually verify someone's employment.

Not a good idea until it works everywhere. Right now, most airports still can't tell whether an ID card is home-made and a pilot uniform rented from a party store.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 9):
I still wonder why the folks who fly the plane have to go through security.

For the same reason the secret service agents assigned to the White House go through security (just to mention one of many examples where employees are scanned to get access into the very site they're intended to protect).

Pilots are not super-human heroes, they're people. People can be blackmailed, coerced, brainwashed, threatened, you name it... A pilot may be the most security conscious pilot in the world until someone kidnaps his family ans tells him he'll recover only bones unless he smuggles a gun through security and gives it to someone else on the other side. Far fetched? Of course, but so was flying aircraft into buildings a few years ago.

If you'd like, where I wrote pilots, you can substitute rampers, fast food employees, gate agents, and whoever else you feel like. This isn't a defense of the TSA, by the way.

(and please, let's not bring up the crash ax, White House secret service agents have guns inside the White House too)
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Polot
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 11):
How many rampers and other airport ground workers do you think go through security?

That is a red herring. Ramp security is an entirely different issue that is much more difficult than the terminal, but is something that everyone is trying to improve on. Just because they don't have to go through security doesn't mean we should just say screw it and let all employees go through with little security. The goal is balancing security with convenience. I'm not saying that pilots/FAs need to have full body scans and cavity searches every time, but it is hardly unreasonable to expect them to go through a metal detector and have their bags go through an X-ray scanner. Employees at many other jobs have to do the exact same thing every time they go to work.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 12):
You have no idea how known crew member works. They actually verify someone's employment.

So because they work for an airline they are automatically gods capable of doing no harm? Again it is about balancing security and convenience. Yes pilots have access to deadly weapons (the crash ax and the controls of the plane), but that doesn't mean we should let them bring whatever they want on board.

There is also (understandably) a large focus on deadly weapons here when talking about security, but don't forget drugs. Or do you believe that all airline employees are angels who would never smuggle drugs? No security (other than an ID check) would make that (potentially high paying) option incredibly attractive for some.
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 14):
Pilots are not super-human heroes, they're people. People can be blackmailed, coerced, brainwashed, threatened, you name it... A pilot may be the most security conscious pilot in the world until someone kidnaps his family ans tells him he'll recover only bones unless he smuggles a gun through security and gives it to someone else on the other side. Far fetched? Of course, but so was flying aircraft into buildings a few years ago.

  


Again, I'm not advocating for full body strip searches for employees, but security checks beyond an ID check is not an unreasonable expectation.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
So it's the victim's fault. Guess we should just shut our mouths and take it...

You are assuming the pilot is the "victim." All of us have a confrontation once in awhile. But when we are given the information that the particular pilot in question has a history of repeated confrontations, it makes me think it is likely that the pilot is a hothead. Most people, even crew who go through every day, don't have TSA confrontations on a frequent basis.

Now this is just one piece of evidence and we'd need a lot more to evaluate the situation fairly, but based only on this article I doubt the pilot is a blameless "victim."
 
cmf
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 14):
Pilots are not super-human heroes, they're people. People can be blackmailed, coerced, brainwashed, threatened, you name it... A pilot may be the most security conscious pilot in the world until someone kidnaps his family ans tells him he'll recover only bones unless he smuggles a gun through security and gives it to someone else on the other side. Far fetched? Of course, but so was flying aircraft into buildings a few years ago.

  

It isn't more far fetched than anything else. No matter what we think about terrorists motivation we should never make the mistake to think they are stupid. Create a hole in the security and it will be exploited.
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SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:13 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 15):
Quoting chrisair (Reply 12):
You have no idea how known crew member works. They actually verify someone's employment.

So because they work for an airline they are automatically gods capable of doing no harm? Again it is about balancing security and convenience. Yes pilots have access to deadly weapons (the crash ax and the controls of the plane), but that doesn't mean we should let them bring whatever they want on board.

Your paranoia is both comical and sad. How many passengers go through the full criminal background check we go through. Fingerprinting, employment history verification, full national driving record verification, residential history verification, PRIA.... shall I go on? You understand the basis for KCM is that if we are cleared by TSA to jumpseat (via CASS verification), we can clear security. Is it your belief then that we should have a TSA agent frisk us before we jumpseat? You're out of touch and dead wrong. Frankly, your assertion that us promoting the nationwide implementation of KCM makes us believe we are "gods" is insulting, and reflects more on you than it does on us.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:18 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 15):

That is a red herring. Ramp security is an entirely different issue that is much more difficult than the terminal, but is something that everyone is trying to improve on. Just because they don't have to go through security doesn't mean we should just say screw it and let all employees go through with little security.

Why not? If there is a gaping security breach at every single airport (airport workers), then what's the point in harassing passengers and crew in the name of "security"?
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Polot
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:54 am

Quoting suprazachair (Reply 18):

What is comical and sad is how you think I am paranoid and think pilots are out to get us. I never said that implementing KCM makes you believe that you are gods, I was just pointing out that there are always going to be people with perfect fingerprinting, employment history verification, full national driving record verification, residential history verification, PRIA who have bad intentions. I have no criminal record, a clean employment history, a clean driving record, and a spotless residential/rental history. How do you know that I am also not a drug smuggler who hasn't been caught yet?

As I stated earlier, I support crew members having slightly relaxed security security standards and don't think full body scans/reaches are necessary. KCM should be used a tool to enhance security, not take the place of security. I think that and a simple metal detector and X-ray bag scanner is more than sufficient for crew members. If you think that is too much you can cry me a river because pilots are hardly the only professions put in a similar position.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 19):
Why not? If there is a gaping security breach at every single airport (airport workers), then what's the point in harassing passengers and crew in the name of "security"?

So your solution is to just eliminate all security because there is one security flaw? Why don't we work on trying to close or minimize that security breach instead to make everyone safer? I'm sure there are a ton of people trying to develop practical, feasible, and cost effective methods to make the ramp a safer and more secure place for everyone involved.

We can debate the extent of security that should be present, but to argue that there should be none is ridiculous. Airport security has been around for decades, it is not a new thing based on relatively recent events or as a result of a sudden police state.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:00 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 20):

So your solution is to just eliminate all security because there is one security flaw?

Certainly not. If the theater was abolished, there would be widespread panic. Everyday passengers would not "feel safe" flying any more, especially if they happened to be sitting near a passenger with brown skin.

I just think that if they are going to have the theater, they could at least have the courtesy to not harass passengers during it.
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Polot
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:24 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 21):
I just think that if they are going to have the theater, they could at least have the courtesy to not harass passengers during it.

I'm in complete agreement with you there, although I have never personally been harassed or felt harassed by the TSA before (the rudest security people I ever encountered were actually in BRU). But I was discussing more the actual security policies in place in for crew methods, not the attitude in which authorities carry them out. That is a completely separate issue that needs to be dealt with more on a case by case/regional basis (NYC security are generally always going to come across as ruder than say somewhere in the Midwest).
 
spink
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:57 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 10):
While I support somewhat reduced security for crew members, no security for them is a terrible idea. The last thing we need is someone who is up to no good impersonating a crew member and getting to the plane without going through even a simple security check.

Until we are in a full quarantined airside system (everything and everyone is fully inspected before access to airside including any private air side), it makes little sense to put pilots and FAs through full security beyond identity and credential checking. And nobody cares about security enough to do a full quarantine system because of the significant effects it would have on commercial aviation.
 
alitaliadc10
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:32 am

The TSA seems to get a lot bad press and I'm sure there are instances where they are on a power trip but from 90% of my flights in the USA I have never found any TSA to be particularly nasty or rude. I think the key is to just to be prepared at the check point and it's pretty smooth sailing. Just came back from LAX and also SFO - no problems with TSA.
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PanHAM
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:05 am

Quoting spink (Reply 24):
And nobody cares about security enough to do a full quarantine system because of the significant effects it would have on commercial aviation.

So how come the USA is imposing this system upon foreign airports? each and every mechanic, ramp agent, loader etc. has to undergo full inspection when enetering the airside restricted aerea at airports in europe, and I am sure in other ae´reas of nthe world as well. The persons might have to undergo this treatment a dozen times a day if they move back and forth. That on the background of detailed security checks before a red swipe card is issued to anyone who is granted access to the sterile area.

It is always amazing to see that the country that forces this kind of BS to the rest of the world upholds lesser security standards inside its own boundaries.

The rest of the world should embargo US carriers before the same standards are set into practise there.
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mcdu
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:22 am

This is very typical of the TSA. it is an organization filled with criminals within its own ranks.

http://godfatherpolitics.com/6453/cr...ing-to-be-expected-says-tsa-chief/

http://www.wmctv.com/story/18781511/...swoman-reports-tsa-hires-criminals

The backgrounds of these TSA agents would prevent them from being pilots. Yet they are allowed to be screeners.

The TSA is a farce and the employees that work there are people you would not want to have over to your house for dinner.
 
ltbewr
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:10 pm

What I think may be an issue here as to the TSA process it that it needs to vary procedures from time to time, including being tighter than usual including as to pilots and flight staff. You want to have some variance in enforcement so that procedures don't become too predictable and exploited by potential terrorists. Don't forget that on 9/11, several of the terrorists that day first went through security at a relatively small airport in Portland, ME and the security there failed to take actions they should have done. A small airport like MHT could be seen if has 'easy' security to be exploited by potential terrorists.

As dealing with humans on both sides, you may have issues of race, sexism, those that have issues with the invasion of privacy they see with the TSA and other factors. Sometimes there will just be confrontations as well as security staff and supervisors who may be excessive but that is going to happen with such an extensive system.

You also have supervisors and staff sometimes get tough or if a confrontation, not give out personal information to try to reduce the ability for complaints to be filed that can cost them employment or with unpaid suspensions or assignment to the worst shifts.
 
cmf
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:07 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 28):
and the security there failed to take actions they should have done.

What did they fail to do?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting AlitaliaDC10 (Reply 25):
The TSA seems to get a lot bad press and I'm sure there are instances where they are on a power trip but from 90% of my flights in the USA I have never found any TSA to be particularly nasty or rude.

I'd say 90% of the time I don't have any problem with them either. Unfortunately in the other 10% I've had them rude, snide, yelling and one time the screener started screaming at me in my face eye to eye. I think a lot of people are plain fed up with being treated that way, even if it's not an everytime occurance. I'm a little disturbed that a lot of posters just assume the Captain was on a power trip. I tend to suspect it was the TSA agent because even the Londonderry Police spokesman put in his statement to the media the supervisor refused to provide their name to the Captain. Is that proof the TSA is at fault? No, but it's evidence of an arrogant attitude and not on the part of the Captain.

I work in IT and there have been a few cases where people have gotten mad at me because of our company policies. I definately get the arrogant attitude from the occasional person who thinks the rules don't apply to them and how they'll get me fired. I never hesitate to give my name and number to them and as helpful as I can encourage them to go through the proper channels if they feel they're being treated unfairly. I've never had any disciplinary action ever over how I've treated anyone at the company. Every once in a while I'll hear about a complaint against me but as a compliment on how well I'm doing my job. That's not arrogance on my part that's the reality of there are always dumb rules each of us have to follow. If the TSA screener and supervisor were in the right the supervisor would have gladly given that information to the Captain knowing TSA would back them up if they followed correct procedures. Maybe the Police spokesman was in error with his statement but I doubt it.
 
virgincrew
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 9):
I still wonder why the folks who fly the plane have to go through security. Get known crew member up and running everywhere. It'll make their lives easier and will help clear up the lines for us that don't fly the plane (for the record, I'm always willing to let the crew go ahead of me unless some of my stuff is in the x-ray already OR I'm running really late for a flight--I've never had a pilot/FA not be understanding in those cases).

I have never understood why in some US airports there are not 'Crew Lanes' at security check points.

I have had arguments with passengers before in US airports that get really upset when you try and push your way through to the front.

At LHR, the crew go through a totally seperate security chanel which is in the back of house areas of LHR and not in the terminals - Queen's Building @ LHR.

I think the TSA have a hard job, they can't win either way... when I first started flying I thought it was a bit much asking crew to virtually undress at security, but now with experience - crew should be no different than passengers.
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AmericanAirFan
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:56 pm

From the general tenor of the TSA lately, and from the general tenor of commercial airline pilots these days (especially well paid WN pilots), I am willing to bet it was the TSA causing trouble...

Quoting mcdu (Reply 27):
This is very typical of the TSA. it is an organization filled with criminals within its own ranks.

http://godfatherpolitics.com/6453/cr...ing-to-be-expected-says-tsa-chief/

http://www.wmctv.com/story/18781511/...swoman-reports-tsa-hires-criminals

The backgrounds of these TSA agents would prevent them from being pilots. Yet they are allowed to be screeners.

The TSA is a farce and the employees that work there are people you would not want to have over to your house for dinner.

It's sad and true... My friend worked at a restaurant with another person who had a second job. That person's second job is being a TSA screener. When I was with my friend at the airport, my friend happened to see that co-worker in the line we were in! My friend said "If they knew what that person did (DUI) they wouldn't hire that person..." I just told my friend I wasn't surprised... They'll hire anybody with a GED or High School Diploma and a heart beat... It seems... Am I wrong in that thinking??

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 31):
I think the TSA have a hard job, they can't win either way... when I first started flying I thought it was a bit much asking crew to virtually undress at security, but now with experience - crew should be no different than passengers.

What is your experience that makes you think the crew should be deemed just as much of a threat to the safety of a flight as unknown passengers? Just curious.

[Edited 2012-08-12 07:59:13]
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virgincrew
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting AmericanAirFan (Reply 32):
What is your experience that makes you think the crew should be deemed just as much of a threat to the safety of a flight as unknown passengers? Just curious.

Of course a crew member could be a danger to the flight if they have become crew for the purposes of terrorism.

There is nothing stopping anyone becoming and training to be cabin crew / flight crew to ultimately committ a terrorist attack of any kind.

Also in general, there has been incidents in the past of mentally ill employees that have comitted crimes onboard.
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virgincrew
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:08 pm

this happened recently in the UK with British Airways during the cabin crew strikes....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...d-to-take-advantage-of-strike.html
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cmf
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting AmericanAirFan (Reply 32):
What is your experience that makes you think the crew should be deemed just as much of a threat to the safety of a flight as unknown passengers? Just curious.

What makes you think they are less likely to be used than anyone else? Especially if you know they will not be checked at security.

I doubt there is any flight crew who doesn't have family or friends. That is a lot of leverage.

[Edited 2012-08-12 09:07:23]
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aeroblogger
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 33):
Of course a crew member could be a danger to the flight if they have become crew for the purposes of terrorism.

Quite right. However, if they have become crew for the purpose of terrorism, then security check isn't going to do much at all. There is a far more potent weapon that they have control of - a massive metal tube which hurtles around and hundreds of miles per hour.
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TVNWZ
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:37 pm

I get a kick out of why the threat level is still Orange.
Really, in 8 years the threat level is the same? We kill Osama, most of the al-Qaeda leadership, installed
Billions in equipment at airports and can't lower the level one notch? Leads to things like this.
 
JONC777
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:57 pm

yay. . .another thread about how we hate the TSA. . . I must say however. . .there hasnt been another 9-11 so. . .if this is what its taken to prevent one. . . im all for it. . .
 
virgincrew
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:17 pm

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 38):
yay. . .another thread about how we hate the TSA. . . I must say however. . .there hasnt been another 9-11 so. . .if this is what its taken to prevent one. . . im all for it. . .

exactly..... I would rather be searched by the TSA, the way they are and know I am getting on a safe aircraft !
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aeroblogger
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 38):
yay. . .another thread about how we hate the TSA. . . I must say however. . .there hasnt been another 9-11 so. . .if this is what its taken to prevent one. . . im all for it. . .

How many terrorist attacks has the TSA stopped?

The answer: zero.

Air safety has improved greatly since 9/11, with cockpit door changes, attitude changes of passengers, and better coordination of intelligence.

The TSA has not done much except harass passengers and catch the occasional drug mule.

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 39):
exactly..... I would rather be searched by the TSA, the way they are and know I am getting on a safe aircraft !

But that's the thing. You don't know that you're getting on a safe aircraft. Airport ramp workers don't get searched. They can bring in whatever they want into the sterile area.

And while TSOs are busy confiscating water bottles and making sure people take off their shoes, they miss a lot of guns and knives... There was a report a while ago which said that TSA's pass rate for red team testing is around 30%. 30%. Makes you feel really safe, huh?
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JONC777
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 40):
How many terrorist attacks has the TSA stopped?

The answer: zero.

how do you know this? What would your solution be? Go back to the way it was. . . lets keep it real. . .there is NO way on the planet that anything elese anyone else would come up with that would please anyone! I dont work for TSA, and yes there are things that could be better. . . but I am really suprised that people dont have the common sense to realise the simple fact that there would never be any way to make everyone happy. I get it .. .people like to gripe just to gripe, but to sit there and say nothing has been prevtend ;. . .is just foolish!
 
JONC777
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:42 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 40):
But that's the thing. You don't know that you're getting on a safe aircraft. Airport ramp workers don't get searched. They can bring in whatever they want into the sterile area.

actually the TSA has wanted to change that for years. . .its the Airports themselves that fight that change.
 
707lvr
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:48 pm

"Brazen?" It's come to this? Lawd help us.
 
Maverick623
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:13 pm

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 41):
how do you know this?

Simple: anytime the TSA claims to have stopped something, it's a big news item. Catching a "terrorist"? They wouldn't shut up about it!

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 41):
.there is NO way on the planet that anything elese anyone else would come up with that would please anyone!

If you cared to read the whole thread, you would find that it actually would. Just because you can't see that, doesn't mean it isn't so.

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 41):
. but I am really suprised that people dont have the common sense to realise the simple fact that there would never be any way to make everyone happy.

Well, considering the goal is NOT to make everyone happy, your statement is a non sequitor.

Quoting cmf (Reply 35):

What makes you think they are less likely to be used than anyone else? Especially if you know they will not be checked at security.

I doubt there is any flight crew who doesn't have family or friends. That is a lot of leverage.

Why go through the hassle of kidnapping, when you can just pay off TSA screeners?

http://articles.businessinsider.com/...-drug-trafficking-charges-fox-news

http://whiteplains.patch.com/article...in-moving-drugs-through-wc-airport
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Cubsrule
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 40):
And while TSOs are busy confiscating water bottles and making sure people take off their shoes, they miss a lot of guns and knives... There was a report a while ago which said that TSA's pass rate for red team testing is around 30%. 30%. Makes you feel really safe, huh?

More so than most government bureaucracies, TSA seems to vary from location to location. At airports where TSA works well - generally airports with TSA management who care - lines are short, experiences are generally positive and I bet the red team testing pass rates are quite a bit higher. At some airports, though, the TSA experience is miserable time after time. I moved from a city where the TSOs ranged from fair to poor to a city where the vast majority of TSAs are courteous and professional. My opinion of TSA went up even though the institution didn't change a bit and, indeed, when I go back to the first city, things are as bad as they ever were. I think this dynamic is the source of a lot of the differences of opinion about TSA.
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aeroblogger
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 42):
actually the TSA has wanted to change that for years. . .its the Airports themselves that fight that change.

What relevance does this have? The fact is, not screening airport workers is a major security breach.
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cmf
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 44):
Why go through the hassle of kidnapping, when you can just pay off TSA screeners?

Understand, you don't want any interference with the aircrews ability to supplement income   
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aeroblogger
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 44):
More so than most government bureaucracies, TSA seems to vary from location to location. At airports where TSA works well - generally airports with TSA management who care - lines are short, experiences are generally positive and I bet the red team testing pass rates are quite a bit higher. At some airports, though, the TSA experience is miserable time after time. I moved from a city where the TSOs ranged from fair to poor to a city where the vast majority of TSAs are courteous and professional. My opinion of TSA went up even though the institution didn't change a bit and, indeed, when I go back to the first city, things are as bad as they ever were. I think this dynamic is the source of a lot of the differences of opinion about TSA.

Here in BOS, the TSOs seem to vary from terminal to terminal, forget airport to airport. Terminal A in particular tends to be terrible - it's the only place I've been asked "are you an Islam?" in my life.

PVD is generally more courteous than BOS...
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ROSWELL41
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:31 pm

TSA's job is not to stop drug or currency smuggling to correct a previous poster. They may refer passengers to local law enforcement, but that is by no means their charge. TSA screeners are not law enforcement officers.
 
spink
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RE: WN Pilot, TSA Agent In 'confrontation' At MHT

Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 37):
yay. . .another thread about how we hate the TSA. . . I must say however. . .there hasnt been another 9-11 so. . .if this is what its taken to prevent one. . . im all for it. . .

This isn't anything like or close to a valid argument or point. A lack of result is not evidence of efficacy.

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
What makes you think they are less likely to be used than anyone else? Especially if you know they will not be checked at security.

because in general pilots tend to be higher paid than other bricks in the security wall. It makes much more sense to target ramp workers or security personnel themselves.

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