Rheinbote
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Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:52 pm

Read here
http://articles.economictimes.indiat...787s-air-india-250-seater-aircraft

"The Dreamliners are overweight by 7.5 tonnes, from its initial design. They were supposed to be 17% more fuel efficient vis-a-vis the A-330 aircraft. But the extra weight is likely to reduce that to 12%," a senior official from the civil aviation ministry told ET on conditions of anonymity."

This could, if at all, make sense if the 'senior official' was referring to lot LN10-LN19 airplanes. But Air India planes are all from later lots that should have a significantly lower empty weight and better performance.   

Maybe Boeing made a sales pitch to Air India for additional airplanes from lot LN10-LN19? Maybe as part of the compensation talks? And the "senior official" just didn't get it?
 
PHX787
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:29 pm

   What the heck are they trying to pull now?!

I looked at the 787 delivery thread and the latest post said they haven't set a delivery date yet. Are they trying to get Boeing to "fix" something? Or get more of a discount? Can't they just shut up and take the plane already?
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Stitch
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
What the heck are they trying to pull now?!

AI filed two compensation claims with Boeing: one for the delivery delays and one for performance shortfalls. AI agreed to separate the two and have come to an agreement with Boeing for the delivery delays. They still have the performance claim.

Quoting Rheinbote (Thread starter):
his could, if at all, make sense if the 'senior official' was referring to lot LN10-LN19 airplanes.

Per Aspire Aviation's analysis, LN007-LN019 are at most 6.1t overweight. LN20 was said to be 4.1t overweight, but it also has the MTOW boost. LN35 and LN50 were both said to be a block-point for additional weight reductions.

AI's earliest frames are LN 25, 26, 28, 29, 30, 32 and 35. Of those, LN29 and LN35 are ready for delivery, along with 46 and 54.

So if Aspire Aviation is correct, of the four airframes scheduled for delivery, LN29 should be the heaviest at ~4t, LN35 and LN46 should be lighter and LN54 should be even lighter still. And all should be rated at 228t MTOW.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting Rheinbote (Thread starter):
a senior official from the civil aviation ministry told ET on conditions of anonymity."

If this guy really believed what he was saying, he should come out and say it, without hiding behind anonymity. Maybe if these civil servants started working India could have electricty for everyone.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
What the heck are they trying to pull now?!

I was going to say God only knows, but i think even god would be scratching his head on this one.

Quoting Rheinbote (Thread starter):
They were supposed to be 17% more fuel efficient vis-a-vis the A-330 aircraft. But the extra weight is likely to reduce that to 12%

Were they really 17% more fuel efficient than the A330?
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Rheinbote
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Per Aspire Aviation's analysis, LN007-LN019 are at most 6.1t overweight. LN20 was said to be 4.1t overweight,

Not exactly primary source information. LN10 should already by different from lot LN7-LN9. The real question is: When airplanes go through the EMC, do they lose weight or gain weight?   
 
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Stitch
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 3):
Were they really 17% more fuel efficient than the A330?

That has been Air India's claim since 2010 based on their internal models.

Leeham.net's analysis in 2009 using Piano-X showed the 787-8 burning 18% less fuel at spec weight and spec SFC compared to the A330-200 over a distance of 6000 nautical miles with a 51,000 pound payload.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Per Aspire Aviation's analysis...
Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 4):
Not exactly primary source information.

His source was two people within Boeing on the 787 program. *shrug* And 787 program managers have been claiming the planes meet contracted guarantees on performance even overweight and with lower-than-spec SFC.

[Edited 2012-08-11 10:30:42]
 
PHX787
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
AI filed two compensation claims with Boeing: one for the delivery delays and one for performance shortfalls. AI agreed to separate the two and have come to an agreement with Boeing for the delivery delays. They still have the performance claim.

Wait a second.....aren't 787s built the same? I honestly don't know why they're asking for performance shortfall compensation when they haven't even gotten them delivered yet. Boeing must be getting really pissed at these guys.

If I were the CEO I'd say "you know what? Screw you guys, we're going to sell these to people who actually appreciate the hard work we do." and give them to NH or something.

Then again I'm not the CEO  
Quoting bestwestern (Reply 3):
I was going to say God only knows, but i think even god would be scratching his head on this one.

  
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BestWestern
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
That has been Air India's claim since 2010 based on their internal models.

Thanks for that - but were AI really considering the A330? I cant imagine the 330 having the legs to operate to the US in a suitable configuration.

I still don't get why AI bought the 787. India (for Air India) should be volume driven, low yield market. I cant see how the 787 will give AI a CASM advantage over their biggest direct competitor - an EK 77W.

Would love to know the CASM comparison between an AI 787 and a LH748i. This is crucial, as AI needs to fight for the cost conscious VFR pax, having lost the premium battle long ago.
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Stitch
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
Thanks for that - but were AI really considering the A330?

They do have two A330-200s on lease. I don't know if Airbus was ever in the running for the 2006 RFP (in which AI ordered 68 Boeing planes).



Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
I still don't get why AI bought the 787. India (for Air India) should be volume driven, low yield market. I cant see how the 787 will give AI a CASM advantage over their biggest direct competitor - an EK 77W.
AI do have 15 777-300ERs in service or on order and their 787-8s have a tiny Business Class cabin (18 seats) and a large Economy Class cabin (238 seats). So I can only hazard a guess they were looking to open direct hub-to-point markets with the 787-8.

[Edited 2012-08-11 10:54:30]
 
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
What the heck are they trying to pull now?!

I think the issue is not that the 787 is heavy, rather the issue is that their pockets are light.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
I still don't get why AI bought the 787.

AI's actions seem to make perfect sense to themselves, but not to anyone else.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
I cant see how the 787 will give AI a CASM advantage over their biggest direct competitor - an EK 77W.

AI has 777Ws yet they've parked them and are still flying 747-400s around.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
This is crucial, as AI needs to fight for the cost conscious VFR pax, having lost the premium battle long ago.

AI doesn't seem to realize this.
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BestWestern
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:37 pm

Please don't take my comments as a slight on the 787 - it's not meant that way.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
So I can only hazard a guess they were looking to open direct hub-to-point markets with the 787-8.

That makes sense for ANA and JAL - where low density, high yield markets can be flown non stop, and will justify a premium. (think Boston) It also makes sense from a european / north american perspective, where routes can be proven using a smaller long haul aircraft. the now suspended IAH AKL comes to mind. Can't wait to see what BA are going to do with the 787.

Meanwhile over in planet Air India, Considering only two routes (from memory) in their entire network are profitable today, what they need to do is get their current operation in order.

With the competitive strength from Emirates and other European carriers AI have totally lost the RASK battle.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
AI doesn't seem to realize this.

Does the 787 allow AI to win the CASM battle vs an EK 77W to the gulf, an Indigo A320 to Singapore, or a LH 748i to Germany? If not, Air India are finished. They have gone 9 abreast, but the 33in legroom doesnt sound high density.

The government have tried to artifically balance the CASM battle by banning the A380, but all that has done is probably increased frequency from DXB, which has made the DXB hub more attractive for time sensitive passengers, further eroding AI's offering.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
AI has 777Ws yet they've parked them

How long are the leases on these?

Finally - cabin photos and external comments...



"While the 787 is a fantastic plane, sometimes an airline can just mess it up. Here is a first look at Air India’s economy cabin, which will have 238 seats in a 3-3-3 (9 abreast) configuration, also known as bonecrushing for those who have to survive a 10+ hour flight in those seats."

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/livefr...mliner-which-will-go-to-air-india/




"Seriously, Air India – a business class cabin with slab-like seats in orange-red or mushroom-grey, and headrests in a custard yellow cream?"

http://www.ausbt.com.au/photos-insid...er-the-ugliest-787-seats-cabin-yet
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:40 pm

From personal expereince importing & exporting out of India. Even if a deal was reached tommorow.....
and they started the acceptance process on AUG13th. India would not be able to import the airplanes until 2013...

The ammount of rubber stamping and the infinite number of directors and inspections the airplanes must go thru,then customs will have another parade of inspectors. In the end the process is inneficient at best, and a waste of time and money.
And the bottom line ... it does not add to safety or compliance. India needs to be told to buy some Tupolevs or enter the 21st century of Aviation.
 
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:56 pm

In my honest opinion AI is seeking another hand out. Yes the B787's are over weight but lets think here for a second. They haven't even flown the damn plane and are complaining about them being overweight. JL and NH both have 787's and seem to be just happy if not thrilled with theirs with one of them being quoted as claiming better than expected fuel burn figures.
 
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:14 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
Can't they just shut up and take the plane already?

Indeed. From what I hear, ANA likes theirs and they are a bit more efficient than originally expected.
...are we there yet?
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 12):
In my honest opinion AI is seeking another hand out.

THIS!


I think I found the source of their weight issue:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
Air India’s economy cabin, which will have 238 seats in a 3-3-3 (9 abreast) configuration, also known as bonecrushing for those who have to survive a 10+ hour flight in those seats."
 
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:38 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
AI needs to fight for the cost conscious VFR pax, having lost the premium battle long ago.

This is AI's #1 issue. If that isn't fixed... they are done. They are not the lowest CASM, so fighting in the low RASM markets is a death sentence. There product and costs must be brought into alignment with each other. AI must also improve their hubbing... what a wasted opportunity.

Quoting Rheinbote (Thread starter):
But the extra weight is likely to reduce that to 12%

That is an interesting number. Boeing likes to benchmark versus the 767, but there is a reason the A332 walked into that market. it shows that the new winglets would not be enough. It is time for Airbus to focus on the A350.   


Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
I looked at the 787 delivery thread and the latest post said they haven't set a delivery date yet.

   This is AI, it will take a while.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
Wait a second.....aren't 787s built the same?

Planes vary a bit plane to plane due to material thickness variation. CFRP will have more variation than aluminum, but there were always variations. The goal of six-sigma is to reduce those variations.

The other part is a weight reduction program on the part of Boeing. Parts and even assemblies are being changed. This has to be done to bring the weight in line.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
I think the issue is not that the 787 is heavy, rather the issue is that their pockets are light.

   And AI doesn't like limits imposed on their side of the contract.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
The government have tried to artifically balance the CASM battle by banning the A380, but all that has done is probably increased frequency from DXB, which has made the DXB hub more attractive for time sensitive passengers, further eroding AI's offering.

   Yes! And it doesn't matter. DXB brings multiple waves per day of customers from 27 (IIRC) European destinations, some parts of Asia, and Africa to India. AI lost a battle it should have easily won.   

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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:43 pm

Quoting Rheinbote (Thread starter):
Maybe Boeing made a sales pitch to Air India for additional airplanes from lot LN10-LN19? Maybe as part of the compensation talks? And the "senior official" just didn't get it?

Maybe the "senior official" called Boeing's call center in India and just didn't get it, even after repeatedly being told by the call center representative "not to worry, everything will be ok, I assure you Mr Senior Official."
 
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:28 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
Meanwhile over in planet Air India, Considering only two routes (from memory) in their entire network are profitable today, what they need to do is get their current operation in order.

I think their theory is that the fuel burn improvement would be enough to tip more routes over into profitability. At least, that's been part of their public rhetoric.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
"While the 787 is a fantastic plane, sometimes an airline can just mess it up. Here is a first look at Air India’s economy cabin, which will have 238 seats in a 3-3-3 (9 abreast) configuration, also known as bonecrushing for those who have to survive a 10+ hour flight in those seats."

I've flown 18+ hours in those exact seats in that exact cabin. To call it "bonecrushing" is, basically, whining without evidence.

Tom.
 
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:18 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
I think the issue is not that the 787 is heavy, rather the issue is that their pockets are light.

This is absolutely correct. i would speculate they really dont have the money for the airplanes to begin with, and they were seeking the insane compensation level in an effort to get the planes essentailly for free. Now they are to phase two of that effort. I hope whatever Boeing decides to give them compensation wise, they stretch out the payments or discounts to AI over the next 200 airframes they buy.
 
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:59 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 3):
If this guy really believed what he was saying, he should come out and say it, without hiding behind anonymity. Maybe if these civil servants started working India could have electricty for everyone.

There is a media gag order in place at Ministry of Civil Aviation and Air India Ltd. This has been the case for almost a decade now.

"coming out and saying it" is like asking to be fired - something no holder of a cushy government job would even contemplate. The only employees who might do it are striking pilots or something, who have nothing to lose.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
Thanks for that - but were AI really considering the A330? I cant imagine the 330 having the legs to operate to the US in a suitable configuration.

Yes, AI considered the A330, and 787 for it's midhaul network. The 787s were originally going to replace the A310s in AIs fleet. Due to the delays, the A310s were phased out without replacement.

The 777s were meant to operate to the US - 787s were not planned to operate to the US, and there are no concrete plans to date to operate the same.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
I still don't get why AI bought the 787. India (for Air India) should be volume driven, low yield market. I cant see how the 787 will give AI a CASM advantage over their biggest direct competitor - an EK 77W.

AI's 77W is meant to give it a CASM advantage over the EK 77W. The 787s were meant to serve a different purpose.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
Meanwhile over in planet Air India, Considering only two routes (from memory) in their entire network are profitable today, what they need to do is get their current operation in order.

3 routes from AI's longhaul network are profitable. Some routes like YYZ lose over $50 million a year. However, thanks to political interference, AI cannot cancel the "prestige" routes.

AI's midhaul (gulf, southeast asia), shorthaul (KTM, BKK), and domestic routes are far more profitable. These routes are generally referred to as "IC (Indian Airlines) routes" in the media and by management and political figures.
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:28 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 19):
cushy government job

For a second I thought you were talking about working for AI!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
AI lost a battle it should have easily won.   

Haha, the only battle AI is going to win anytime is "most embarrassing/pathetic/pick-your-adjective Indian airline." It's just mind-boggling how even with everything the GoI has done to try to prop up AI, it continues to fail and only survive on handouts. The 5-year rule preventing competitors like 9W/6E from flying internationally comes to mind. Then you also have moles like PP who's inexplicable decisions led to what appears to be a poorly thought out order of widebodies that AI truthfully probably doesn't even know what to do with. That can be the only explanation for the ridiculous comments coming from AI officials about the 787. Not to mention the absolutely abhorrent process of int'l-to-domestic connections at Indian airports. It's a little better at DEL, but just marginally. Then of course you have AI's entry in the *A, and then the inability of any other airline to join an alliance (assuming they were wanted). Just embarrassing.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 19):
3 routes from AI's longhaul network are profitable. Some routes like YYZ lose over $50 million a year. However, thanks to political interference, AI cannot cancel the "prestige" routes.

AI's midhaul (gulf, southeast asia), shorthaul (KTM, BKK), and domestic routes are far more profitable. These routes are generally referred to as "IC (Indian Airlines) routes" in the media and by management and political figures.

Firstly, define profitable... "Of 300 routes, only three make money." said Civil Aviation Minister Ajit Singh to Business Standard on August 9th

http://www.rediff.com/business/slide...ajit-singh/20120809.htm?print=true
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 19):
There is a media gag order in place at Ministry of Civil Aviation and Air India Ltd. This has been the case for almost a decade now.

So in reality, nobody really knows much about AI except for the AI employees themselves?
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:47 am

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 20):
It's just mind-boggling how even with everything the GoI has done to try to prop up AI, it continues to fail and only survive on handouts. The 5-year rule preventing competitors like 9W/6E from flying internationally comes to mind.

*facepalm*

Please try to understand Indian politics before coming up with such rubbish. The 5-year rule was created to help 9W, which has never really considered AI "competition."

This attitude that the private carriers are somehow "underdogs" has to go. The private carriers are more powerful than AI ever can be, thanks to a single human trait - greed.
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:51 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 21):
Firstly, define profitable... "Of 300 routes, only three make money." said Civil Aviation Minister Ajit Singh to Business Standard on August 9th

As I said, those AI routes. AI routes = longhaul routes.

IC routes (Indian Airlines routes) are short and midhaul routes. While some of those are major money losers too, most of them have more revenue than costs.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
So in reality, nobody really knows much about AI except for the AI employees themselves?

Well, info comes out through the Press Information Bureau and media liaisons, but other than that, info is strictly from "sources" who can't reveal themselves.
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:06 am

A quote from the movie - The Most Exotic Marigold Hoel.

"At the end, everything will be all right. And if it is not all right now, then it is not yet the end."

And so, the saga of delivering the Dreamliners to Air India continues. In the meantime, as much as I am thrilled by the vibrant colours in India, I think Air India has chosen badly the colours of its seat upholstery in both Business and Economy Class. If those Business Class seats were covered in grey leather, they would look like tombstones! These look extremely uncomfortable.

Does anyone know where Air India has finally decided to fly their B787s? Then again, this probably is putting the cart in front of the horse as the airline has to first take delivery of these planes.

KC Sim
 
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:14 am

Quoting aviasian (Reply 25):
In the meantime, as much as I am thrilled by the vibrant colours in India, I think Air India has chosen badly the colours of its seat upholstery in both Business and Economy Class.

I agree. While I love the majestic livery, the interiors of AI scream Sarkar (Government) of India.

A far cry from the once exotic interiors that AI had:
Quoting aviasian (Reply 25):
These look extremely uncomfortable.

While the color is horrible, the seats are actually pretty comfortable.

Quoting aviasian (Reply 25):

Does anyone know where Air India has finally decided to fly their B787s?

After familiarization flight, AI 311/312/314 (DEL-MEL/SYD triangle) is expected to be the first route. LHR, FRA, DXB, and NBO are also probable destinations with the first few 787s.
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:37 am

Unless people outside AI and Boeing are privy to the agreed specifications, any claims that they are not true I think are baseless.

Spec weights tend to be airline specific.
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BestWestern
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:31 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 24):
AI routes = longhaul routes.

AI doesnt have 300 routes.


Melbourne is a folly. If they cant get Europe right, how will melbourne work.
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:34 am

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 20):
Not to mention the absolutely abhorrent process of int'l-to-domestic connections at Indian airports. It's a little better at DEL, but just marginally.

This is something I do not get. Why is it so difficult (per reports, I've yet to fly to India) to transfer international to domestic in India? As long as it is quicker and easier to do so at other airports, passengers will pick the alternatives and that hits RASM quickly.

International to India's secondary cities should have been a since for AI to dominate the market share. Instead... the experience, in particular the transfer experience puts all Indian airlines at a disadvantage.  
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 23):
The 5-year rule was created to help 9W

From an outsider's perspective, I respectfully disagree. It gave AI breathing room to reform. Supposedly.

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BestWestern
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:49 am

An airline with 297 loss making routes wants to fly to Melbourne rather than using the aircraft to reduce costs on current routes.

This company is a disaster.
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:55 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 28):
AI doesnt have 300 routes.

Indeed. Without the IC routes, the total amount of routes AI operates is more like 100. With the IC routes, it is more like 500. I have absolutely no clue what the MoCA meant by his statement.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 28):
Melbourne is a folly. If they cant get Europe right, how will melbourne work.

It's once again politically motivated. The Indian government wants to be seen as serving the expatriate community in Australia.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 29):
This is something I do not get. Why is it so difficult (per reports, I've yet to fly to India) to transfer international to domestic in India? As long as it is quicker and easier to do so at other airports, passengers will pick the alternatives and that hits RASM quickly.

It's the same process as in the US... pick up bags and recheck at first point of entry (with the exception of AI international connectors)

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 29):
From an outsider's perspective, I respectfully disagree. It gave AI breathing room to reform. Supposedly.

If there is anything AI needed breathing room from, it's the international competition. The purpose of the 5-year rule was so that the established carriers at the time (9W, S2) would not have to deal with more competition domestically. The biggest proponent of the rule is none other than Naresh Goyal (and Subrata Roy was also a big proponent when he had an airline...)
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9w748capt
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:05 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 23):
Please try to understand Indian politics before coming up with such rubbish. The 5-year rule was created to help 9W, which has never really considered AI "competition."

Oh give me a physical break. 9W has never considered AI competition? Which universe are you living in? 9W was the very first private airline in India to to put up any sort of fight against big bad AI/IC (let's just consider them one entity for argument's sake). In the 2000s when EK, EY, QR, etc are infiltrating India to the point of flying multiple widebodies/day to all the metros, the GoI is in the meantime prohibiting the private carriers from putting up any sort of competition? Now granted there's no way 6E is going to poach NA-India passengers, but the GoI won't even let them compete on the gulf routes? And that's supposed to help them how? For the love of god.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 29):
This is something I do not get. Why is it so difficult (per reports, I've yet to fly to India) to transfer international to domestic in India? As long as it is quicker and easier to do so at other airports, passengers will pick the alternatives and that hits RASM quickly.

International to India's secondary cities should have been a since for AI to dominate the market share. Instead... the experience, in particular the transfer experience puts all Indian airlines at a disadvantage.  

Where to start. Basically everything about such a connection in India is unpleasant. The biggest issue for years was simply the filthy conditions at the airports. The stench alone was bad enough to where you wouldn't want to spend any extended amount of time there. And forget about simple creature comforts (at least by modern standards) of reliable air-conditioning, comfortable chairs, and actual dining options. That's just for starters. Then there's the physical separation from the domestic and int'l terminals (less so at the new DEL) which is still present at places like BOM, which necessitates a crowded bus transfer and possibly a bribe or two along the way to make sure your luggage makes it (absolutely not joking, I had to do this in BOM just last December). While you're waiting for said bus, you sit in a barely air-conditioned room on wire metal chairs which may or may not have been cleaned sometime in the last decade (not joking, I think I have pics from a TR a few years back). I won't even get into what toilets used to be like (admittedly much better now but still). Then there's the overnight layover because very few domestic flights depart in the middle of the night - last I saw there were a select few from BOM to HYD, BLR, and the likes, but if you're going someplace like NAG, fuhggedaboutit. So after you get to the domestic terminal, you're fighting for the few comfortable chairs that may or may not exist with the hundreds of other passengers who are in a similar predicament for the next 6 hours.

It's no surprise that the gulf carriers fill multiple widebodies to HYD/BLR/MAA/etc. It's just a miserable experience which you do because that's what you do when you're trying to get to Nagpur to see your grandparents and cousins, but that's about it. Having said that, the experience at the new DEL is much, much better than before, but I had a 7 hour overnight there shortly after it opened and it was pure torture. Nowhere to sit/lie down, unable to check my bags (at least at BOM, the domestic airlines have check in desks after customs so you can get rid of your checked luggage), and basically zero food/drink options other than costa coffee. Oh and "free wifi" but only if you have an Indian cell number. Gee thanks. I don't know who designed DEL, but it absolutely defies logic - the sleeping pods are inside security for godssakes - who the hell thought of that? You can't even get through security unless you're checked in and have a BP - by which point why the hell would you need a sleeping pod? How about a sleeping pod or two for all the passengers stuck doing overnight transfers? Same thing as far as reclining chairs - there are hundreds available inside security - but slim to none outside - why?
 
Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:46 am

The last company I worked for participated in an Air India tender for which you had to pay a deposit to get the tender documentation. We were shortlisted, presented in BOM, the process was then abandoned as a competitor got in another way bypassing the tender. AI was very responsive as long as the correct tender process was still on-going. Never heard from them again thereafter, they still have the "deposit" 5 years later. Just an anecdote, but shows how things work there.

Have been on an AI flight from BKK to BOM last year, booked one of the lowest fares you can possibly get but got upgraded to Business for whatever odd reason (most probably an IT issue or I was just one of the few people travelling alone, my bags were tagged accordingly as well though). Arrived in BOM, went through passport control, waited 10 minutes for crew baggage to arrive, another 30 minutes for what felt like 40 TV sets, another 30 minutes for Business Class baggage ... Shows where the priorities are as well  .
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IndianicWorld
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:51 am

Seriously, is anyone really surprised that AI are taking these actions? Really??  

Another faceless govt person making statements. Another day in the world of AI.
 
bizmark03
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:23 am

Besides the fact that AI is a miserably run company, why is everyone blaming just AI? Knowing how things work in India, Boeing surely must have greased some palms to sell AI planes which they have no need for nor the money to pay for.
 
BMI727
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:41 am

Quoting bizmark03 (Reply 35):
Boeing surely must have greased some palms to sell AI planes which they have no need for nor the money to pay for.

Caving to Air India's demands for compensation (at least to some degree) essentially is the greasing of the palms to ensure that India likes them enough to buy their military hardware. Throwing in some cash with the 787s to keep them happy could pay off nicely.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
BestWestern
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:51 am

Quoting bizmark03 (Reply 35):
Boeing surely must have greased some palms to sell AI planes which they have no need for nor the money to pay for.

In the US, thats called lobbying.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
sweair
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:34 am

If they put 238 economy seats in a 788 I guess a 748i would be a better choice, they could stuff 450 seats on that plane.
The 787 is at its best in the role that ANA and JAL have given it.

AI thinks the 787 is a magic bullet of some sort, what they need it for a A332 would do nearly as well. I have flown a 300+ seat A332..
 
flybyguy
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:37 am

Isn't the only reason why Boeing is putting up with this Air India b.s. because of potentially large military orders?
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
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Revelation
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:48 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 20):
Just embarrassing.

Embarrassment matters little to these people. This type of transaction is their chance to get their palms greased and that matters a lot more than a little embarrassment.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 26):
A far cry from the once exotic interiors that AI had:

Looks just like my bedroom! 
Quoting flybyguy (Reply 39):
Isn't the only reason why Boeing is putting up with this Air India b.s. because of potentially large military orders?

Personally I think it's more about the half dozen or so Dreamliners that they've already built and are taking up space at PAE and CHS. If we were in the middle of a production run, I suspect that as soon as there was any hint of trouble, the frames would have been steered to another customer early enough to not cost Boeing a lot of money. In this case, AI has Boeing over a (CFRP) barrel and are taking full advantage of that.
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ebj1248650
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 21):
Firstly, define profitable... "Of 300 routes, only three make money." said Civil Aviation Minister Ajit Singh to Business Standard on August 9th

And yet the airline is still in business. How can that be if only three routes make money, even assuming those money making routes are raking in the cash?
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
aeroblogger
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:56 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 32):

Oh give me a physical break. 9W has never considered AI competition? Which universe are you living in? 9W was the very first private airline in India to to put up any sort of fight against big bad AI/IC (let's just consider them one entity for argument's sake).

When it started maybe. But ever since 9W has established itself as the top private carrier, it's been doing everything it can to maintain its place.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 32):
Now granted there's no way 6E is going to poach NA-India passengers, but the GoI won't even let them compete on the gulf routes?

Of course GoI will.

Great article from a couple days ago: http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...20.ece?ref=wl_industry-and-economy
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RobK
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:09 pm

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 41):
And yet the airline is still in business. How can that be if only three routes make money, even assuming those money making routes are raking in the cash?

Well presumably as it's a govt run airline, the Indian tax-payers are essentially keeping them afloat.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:11 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 43):
Well presumably as it's a govt run airline, the Indian tax-payers are essentially keeping them afloat.

While Indian taxpayers indeed are paying to keep AI afloat, the amounts certainly cannot sustain an operation which is losing money on 99% of its routes.
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RobK
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 44):
While Indian taxpayers indeed are paying to keep AI afloat, the amounts certainly cannot sustain an operation which is losing money on 99% of its routes.

That's pretty much the same story the world over with state run 'entities' but somehow they always manage to keep them bumbling along - usually by the introduction of some new 'stealth' taxes when the pot is looking a bit empty.
 
aztrainer
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 12):
In my honest opinion AI is seeking another hand out.

Yep, BOAB - Bring On Another Billion. They got what they asked for last time and it shocked many. They may want to see if the well still has some liquid capitol in them.
 
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rotating14
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:22 pm

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 39):

That's what I'm thinking too. The best example that comes to mind is Ryan Air. Both Airbus and Boeing think twice when it comes to dealing with them. But AI is different because of the political implications and the lost revenue in defense deals that would be lost. Boeing isn't hurting on the commercial aviation sales but with United States Department of Defense cutting back keeping AI around would prove wiser than shunning them
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:10 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Thread starter):
Read here
http://articles.economictimes.indiat...787s-air-india-250-seater-aircraft

"The Dreamliners are overweight by 7.5 tonnes, from its initial design. They were supposed to be 17% more fuel efficient vis-a-vis the A-330 aircraft. But the extra weight is likely to reduce that to 12%," a senior official from the civil aviation ministry told ET on conditions of anonymity."

Looks to me like they summed up how much each aircraft is overweight and came up with a total of 7.5 t.  See below:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
So if Aspire Aviation is correct, of the four airframes scheduled for delivery, LN29 should be the heaviest at ~4t, LN35 and LN46 should be lighter and LN54 should be even lighter still. And all should be rated at 228t MTOW.

Would Boeing ever consider dumping AI as a customer? At some point ridiculous waste of energy, bad mouthing by your "customer", and endless (and totally insanely over the top) administrative trickery call for a tough business decision.
Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.
 
BMI727
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RE: Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight

Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:18 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 48):
Would Boeing ever consider dumping AI as a customer?

No, potential military sales to India are too valuable. It's that tie to the government that kept Boeing from telling AI to shove it and giving them only the compensation the contract required.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?