LAXintl
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Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:17 pm

TACA group airlines (TACA, TACA Peru, LACSA and Aviateca) today filed with the DOT notice that they intend to collective utilize the name Avianca and use designator code of "AV" for their services to the United States.

TACA states that it intends to utilize the trade name along with market and sale of services under the Avianca banner by first quarter of 2013.

TACA also states the group carriers will continue using unique flight numbers(see below) to identify the individual operator of each flight, however for consumer seeks to operate solely under a single Avianca banner.
Carrier believes the single name will boost consumer awareness of the groups services and help promote competition in effected markets.


Planned flight number ranges:
001-129 - Avianca Colombia
130-133 - TACA Peru (Colombia)
134-135 - Aerogal
136-139 - TACA Peru (Colombia)
140-299 - Avianca Colombia
300-599 - TACA International
600-699 - LACSA
700-799 - TACA Regional
800-999 - TACA Peru
1000-1099 - TACA Regional
1100-1199 Aerogal



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spiritair97
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:20 pm

So does this mean we will never see a TACA a330?  
 
A388
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:56 pm

I never expected this to happen and I would have kept TA and AV as brands just as how KL and AF operate under the same airline group. I'm glad I got to see both old and new liveries of TA.

A388
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:26 am

Sad change for many, but announced and expected many months ago. This should bring further strength to the iconic Avianca brand.
 
avi8
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:27 am

So all airplanes will get the AV livery?
avi8

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SJOtoLIR
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:54 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 2):
I never expected this to happen and I would have kept TA and AV as brands just as how KL and AF operate under the same airline group

This won't be the case for TACA, since AVIANCA owns the 66% of their shares.
I'd post this very common Spanish saying: "Quien paga la musica, manda en el baile..."

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
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turk223
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:31 am

Just to confirm, does this mean that all the member airlines of the Avianca-Taca group will be transformed into the Avianca brand? Uniforms, interiors, livery? I heard a rumor that Avianca was changing its image; hope not!
 
mabadia71
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:48 am

Quoting turk223 (Reply 6):
Just to confirm, does this mean that all the member airlines of the Avianca-Taca group will be transformed into the Avianca brand? Uniforms, interiors, livery? I heard a rumor that Avianca was changing its image; hope not!

It was announced some time ago that the hole AviancaTaca group (AV-TA-Aerogal) was going to be re-branded under a single name. So far most rumors said that the name was going to be Avianca, and this confirms it. The matter of the corporate image is still unknown, though most rumors say that the livery on the planes will be AV's current livery. Regarding the interior of the aircrafts the rumor is that they will be more like TA's current interiors, and this seems to be confirmed by the last Airbus aircraft that arrived in BOG for AV.
mabadia71
 
mingocr83
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting turk223 (Reply 6):

Well...basically yes...LACSA/TACA personnel is already getting there with the tailor for the new uniforms. All Cabin crews including the front seats are using Avianca Lanyards..apparently at the end of the year everything has to be ready for the new brand..launch will be at the same time in BOG, SJO/SAL/LIM, Brazil, etc
A380, A321, A320, A319, 757-200, 737-800WL, 737-700WL, E190
 
MATURRO727
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:45 am

Well this is no surprise for anyone for the many reasons discussed already. But definitely is very sad for fellow fans of TA, if it had happened the other way around i would have been devastated.

Quoting mabadia71 (Reply 7):
It was announced some time ago that the hole AviancaTaca group (AV-TA-Aerogal) was going to be re-branded under a single name. So far most rumors said that the name was going to be Avianca, and this confirms it. The matter of the corporate image is still unknown, though most rumors say that the livery on the planes will be AV's current livery. Regarding the interior of the aircrafts the rumor is that they will be more like TA's current interiors, and this seems to be confirmed by the last Airbus aircraft that arrived in BOG for AV.

Few months ago I heard for a very reliable source that a branding agency in NYC was working the AV-TA account to develope the new corporate image for the company. I also heard that although the red/white colors on AV planes are very distinctive and many may say beautiful and historic, they are not the "ideal colors" to brand an airline that wants to reflect to its customers quality service, safety, on time performance and seriousness. Now as I said before this is a only rumor. i would be very sad if they decide to change the red because is too "folclorik"

regards.


MATURRO727
 
777jaah
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:53 pm

Quoting mabadia71 (Reply 7):
and this seems to be confirmed by the last Airbus aircraft that arrived in BOG for AV.

That would be the *A liveries. I've flown on both the 320 and 319, and surprisingly, they had some sort of mood lighting.

Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
A388
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:56 pm

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 5):
This won't be the case for TACA, since AVIANCA owns the 66% of their shares.
I'd post this very common Spanish saying: "Quien paga la musica, manda en el baile..."

Regards.

Yes, that is absolutely true. What I was saying is that I thaught the brand TACA to be sufficiently well known in the areas they operate so to keep that brand in any case. Guess I was wrong then.

A388
 
CRFLY
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:54 pm

I think most of the people in Central America won't mind this, as long as they keep up with the product and the service TACA has been delivering since they rebranded.

There is still a gap in the inflight service between TACA and Avianca (based on my last experiences with them), where TACA has been very constant and delivering a better product than Avianca. TACA's aircraft are also more confortable than Avianca´s, especially in Business Class. Overall my personal experience with TACA has been always better than Avianca's.

Regarding corporate image, I belive Avianca's is more appropiate, as I still don't find TACA's current livery attractive and ccording to a worldwide Star Alliance carrier... IMHO...

Sad to see the name TACA go but definetly the brand Avianca is very powerful, with years of history and especially as being the oldest airline in the Americas!
With Age comes Wisdom...
 
777jaah
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting CRFLY (Reply 12):
TACA and Avianca (based on my last experiences with them), where TACA has been very constant and delivering a better product than Avianca. TACA's aircraft are also more confortable than Avianca´s,

I recently flew with TACA and had the chance to experemient their fleet (319-320-E190). For whatever reason, thngs like kids menu, which AVIANCA happily serves, and even confirmed me for my flights (Iwas travelling with 2 toddlers), TACA does not serve at all. Besides, IFE is way better in AV planes than in TACA's E190, not to argue what they offer in the 32X fleet. On the other hand, transfering @ SAL was a real breeze, efficiency not compared to what AV can offer in BOG, VIP lounge a bit outdated, but the operation they have over there is simply great. One thing TACA really surpasses Avianca, is consistency with their FA's. Out of the 4 flights I had with them, none was short of great crews. In AV's case, this is becoming so rare, and many FA's are really robotic and sometimes not very nice, and this is not only in domestic, but intl flights.

BTW, on my last flight with TA, I had the chance to talk to a couple of the FA's and asked her about th epossibility of the brand being replaced by Avianca. Both said that it was a shame, but they were happy with the situation of the compañy and the new rutes they've been flying, son I guess they rather be part of a bigger more solid company than just stick to some sort of brand-attachment feelings. IAt the end of the day, they're just interested in having a chance to do their job and being remunerated fairly and on time.
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
A388
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:31 pm

I've recently flown on N634MX (twice) and HK-4553 (once so far) and the IFE in HK-4553 was fantastic!!! N634MX was previously operated by MX I'm guessing which explains the (slightly) outdated IFE.

A388
 
The777Man
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:34 pm

It would be great if the AV livery was kept; very colorful and not so common with other airlines having so much red.

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Motorhussy
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:05 pm

How about Avianca do Brasil? Or do they currently fly with AV flight numbers anyway?
come visit the south pacific
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting MATURRO727 (Reply 9):
they are not the "ideal colors" to brand an airline that wants to reflect to its customers quality service, safety, on time performance and seriousness. Now as I said before this is a only rumor. i would be very sad if they decide to change the red because is too "folclorik"

Well, that is some terrible reasoning from that firm's part. So according to them adopting a more sober image, like AA's or US's, will tell the customers that the airline has better service standards? I cite those two as examples of terrible service. KE aircraft look like a giant flying tube of toothpaste and yet they are constantly rated one of the greatest flight experiences in the world. Yet they keep their identity and don't go for some boring Arial 12 eurowhite corporate image.

What tells the customers they have good service standards is their travel experience, the crews, the ground handling and the in-flight product. Let's hope this is a rumor.

Also, who said the current livery is "flocloric"? (a term sometimes used in colombian spanish with a peyorative connotation, meaning that something lacks seriousness and at the same time is tacky) It's not like it has monkeys and birds with prehispanic mythical figures, bikini models and selvatic flowers all around! Hell, Aeroflot's, Air Canada's or Asiana's liveries are all folcloric too then!

Quoting CRFLY (Reply 12):

There is still a gap in the inflight service between TACA and Avianca (based on my last experiences with them), where TACA has been very constant and delivering a better product than Avianca. TACA's aircraft are also more confortable than Avianca´s, especially in Business Class. Overall my personal experience with TACA has been always better than Avianca's.

Views on cabin crew service are very subjective. But with all due respect, Avianca's hard product, which can be empirically observed and objectively compared, is better that TACA's, starting with the widebody business class seats and the entertainment system. The new seats being adopted by Avianca are the Star Alliance standard short haul seats, not necessarily the same as TA's. AV's crews can be a little cold at times, that I agree, but I don't think it is the norm at all. Then again, it's a subjective point of view from my part.

Quoting The777Man (Reply 15):
It would be great if the AV livery was kept; very colorful and not so common with other airlines having so much red.

I think it speaks about an iconic identity as the oldest airline in the americas and as a colombian, now also latin american company. Why go for a boring eurowhite scheme like CM's or TA's? Who said that looked more professional?

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 16):
How about Avianca do Brasil? Or do they currently fly with AV flight numbers anyway?

Avianca Brazil is not part of the Avianca Taca Holding, but they do have a brand licence agreement and indirect ownership ties. I imagine that if there is any change to the current livery they will have to change their image accordingly.

[Edited 2012-08-14 13:59:10]
 
757MDE
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:50 pm

Not surprising.
This has been a rumour from long ago and it's finally confirmed.

I would have preferred that they kept TACA (and SAM with green colours and TAMPA with black and orange) as well a la Air France/KLM, but if one had to be chosen, I'd also go for Avianca.
I concur with the people here that say that TACA tends to be a better experience overall, it has been the same with me even though I have also had cold uninterested crew in TACA, it's been more prevalent in Avianca, but I find both carriers services usually satisfactory (even if Avianca tends to overcharge). Surprisingly enough, the most comfortable A320 I have flown on within the group belongs to Aerogal, and the crew was not bad at all.

I also think the arguments of the NY company are plain bull, and I hope that they're not heeded if true. The current image is just fine!

In the end, as long as they keep flying and providing jobs and decent service it's all good.

[Edited 2012-08-14 14:55:48]
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MATURRO727
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:53 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 17):
Well, that is some terrible reasoning from that firm's part. So according to them adopting a more sober image, like AA's or US's, will tell the customers that the airline has better service standards? I cite those two as examples of terrible service. KE aircraft look like a giant flying tube of toothpaste and yet they are constantly rated one of the greatest flight experiences in the world. Yet they keep their identity and don't go for some boring Arial 12 eurowhite corporate image.

What tells the customers they have good service standards is their travel experience, the crews, the ground handling and the in-flight product. Let's hope this is a rumor.

completely agree.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 17):
Also, who said the current livery is "flocloric"? (a term sometimes used in colombian spanish with a peyorative connotation, meaning that something lacks seriousness and at the same time is tacky) It's not like it has monkeys and birds with prehispanic mythical figures, bikini models and selvatic flowers all around! Hell, Aeroflot's, Air Canada's or Asiana's liveries are all folcloric too then!

Folkloric not good? Well how about not serious enough? Or perhaps not to sober ? Semantics... you know what I meant.

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 18):
I also think the arguments of the NY company are plain bull, and I hope that they're not heeded if true. The current image is just fine!

Agree as well. I think at the end it will still be the red and white colors. Maybe less red and more white or just the exact same colors nobody really knows, but we can’t rule out anything cause this "not serious enough" thing was out on the table apparently.
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:41 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
1000-1099 - TACA Regional

TACA REGIONAL has many domestic airlines distributed in Central America as follows: Aviateca [Guatemala], Isleña [Honduras], La Costeña [Nicaragua], AeroPerlas -no longer in service- [Panama] and Sansa [Costa Rica].
Having said that, all these services would be shortly unified in one only brand. Perhaps named as AVIANCA REGIONAL...

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
EddieDude
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:19 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 5):
This won't be the case for TACA, since AVIANCA owns the 66% of their shares.

No. A holding company created in order to consummate the transaction owns all or close to all of the shares of each or Taca Group and Avianca. At the time of the closing, the former shareholders of Avianca became owners of about 66% of the shares of the holding company and the former shareholders of TACA Group became owners of about 33% of the shares of the holding company.
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abrelosojos
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:33 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 3):
This should bring further strength to the iconic Avianca brand.

= What iconic Avianca brand? Outside Colombia, I don't think most people associate exemplary service with Avianca.

Having said that, I think it is a good move - not because I necessarily think Avianca is a stronger brand than TACA, but I think one brand makes them more competitive vs. LAN.

Saludos,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 22):
= What iconic Avianca brand? Outside Colombia, I don't think most people associate exemplary service with Avianca.

Well, now that's another subjective statement.

But I will respond,

Avianca is an iconic brand mainly in the colombian market. It is also the oldest airline in the americas. It has provided colombians with air transportation since 1919, and thanks to it colombian aviation has shaped itself to what it is today. Right now, Avianca offers a very solid product which is preferred by many colombians for their travels. Certainly much better than what most latin american carriers provide today. On every brand study, Avianca constantly ranks top 3 top of mind over EVERY brand in Colombia, a country with almost 47 million inhabitants, the third largest population of latin america, fourth in the american continent, and rapidly becoming laitn america's third economy. It is also constantly ranked as one of the most appreciated companies in every report. Most recently, their entertainment system was voted best in latin america by Skytrax.

So yes, Avianca is an iconic brand to a very, very large and verifiable number of people. On the other hand,

In Brazil, Avianca Brazil is constantly ranked as the airline providing the best service, and "Avianca" is rapidly becoming a very well known brand.

Avianca is also well known in countries such as Spain, Venezuela, Ecuador, Mexico, Brazil, Peru and the United States as a large competitor in the markets they serve. Not to mention the much, much better service they provide than their counterparts. Many of these people could be included in the category of those who think Avianca is an icon.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 21):
At the time of the closing, the former shareholders of Avianca became owners of about 66% of the shares of the holding company and the former shareholders of TACA Group became owners of about 33% of the shares of the holding company.

Yes, that explains it much better.
 
Summa767
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:02 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 23):
Well, now that's another subjective statement

Actually, there are very few people with the authority of Abrelosojos to state that outside Colombia very few people will associate the Avianca brand with exemplary service. Not subjective as he works in the industry. His trip reports show objectivity and the huge array of airlines from across the world.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 23):
But I will respond

In response you concentrate on Colombia, which is precisely where Abrelosojos stated as the exemption.

In flight entertainment and generally the hard product is fine on AV. Its main weakness is service attitude.

I am afraid that many Colombians are deluded about this..
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:20 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 24):
In response you concentrate on Colombia, which is precisely where Abrelosojos stated as the exemption.

Abrelosojos did not state an exemption when he said "what iconic brand", because it is an iconic brand to a lot of people, that's why I wrote my response like this:

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 23):
Avianca is an iconic brand mainly in the colombian market.

It doesn't matter if Avianca is not a worldwide iconic brand. It is an icon of colombian and latin american aviation to some extent.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 24):
In flight entertainment and generally the hard product is fine on AV. Its main weakness is service attitude.
Quoting summa767 (Reply 24):
I am afraid that many Colombians are deluded about this..

Might be, but I also don't find it that service attitude is a concern. In fact, I think that Avianca's main weakness is the crumbling colombian aviation infrastructure. BOG is not adequate to handle the amount of traffic that the airline is transporting and this makes for a lousy service, starting from the ground experience to delays while on board. The constant airport closures are also a pain in the ass for both passengers and carriers. yesterday I heard there was a situation in PEI because a pothole (a pothole!) cracked open during the middle of the day in the runway, stranding three flights at the airport and causing mayhem (2 AV, 1 LA)...I mean this is an international airport we're talking about!

Quoting summa767 (Reply 24):
Actually, there are very few people with the authority of Abrelosojos to state that outside Colombia very few people will associate the Avianca brand with exemplary service. Not subjective as he works in the industry. His trip reports show objectivity and the huge array of airlines from across the world.

It is subjective because he is not giving any hard facts to sustain his allegation while making a blund statement: Avianca is not iconic. Another thing would be to say Avianca is not iconic in most markets outside of Colombia, but then, he would have to take into account the size of Colombia as a market and a nation within the latin american sphere, to see how relevant it is that for colombians Avianca is an iconic brand.

Authority is not proven fact. How many times haven't you heard company CEOs or presidents state wrong information about their companies/countries?
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:38 pm

Thanks summa767 for your comment. This is exactly the kind of reason why I avoid commenting on threads involving Latin aviation. Common business sense seems to be put aside for national flag waving.

Since this thread has (and almost will likely continue to) evolve into a generally Colombia vs. Non-Colombian perspective, I will refrain from partaking in it any further -- but will maintain that outside Colombia, NO ONE gets a super sense of pride flying iconic Avianca. Like everywhere else, they fly Avianca because of schedules and because it is cheap. By NO means, does it represent exemplary service.

Finally, please don't say "Latin Americans" and characterize such a diverse set of people into one category. It doesn't matter if it is Avianca, TACA, COPA, LAN, etc. EVERY Latin American should be upset that such a growing diverse continent has basically been left to 3 airlines - COPA, LAN, and Avianca. That is the true tragedy and reason why air service continues to be expensive and sub-par in the region. Go to Asia, and see the choices they have.

Saludos,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:51 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 26):
This is exactly the kind of reason why I avoid commenting on threads involving Latin aviation. Common business sense seems to be put aside for national flag waving.

Oh please. I'm not flag waving anything. I'm just stating the fact that Avianca is an iconic brand for colombians. To which you ironically responded "what iconic brand".

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 26):
but will maintain that outside Colombia, NO ONE gets a super sense of pride flying iconic Avianca.

Again, you don't know that. But granted, it is not a known brand for it's excellence in service like SQ or QR. It is still not what I was stating either. I'm just trying to follow an argument. If you feel attacked by a rational argument because you work in the industry and have knowledge to some extent, then too bad.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 26):
Finally, please don't say "Latin Americans" and characterize such a diverse set of people into one category.

We're going to use the diversity argument? In aviation?

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 26):
EVERY Latin American should be upset that such a growing diverse continent has basically been left to 3 airlines - COPA, LAN, and Avianca.

Yet you characterize them as latin americans again, it is a valid category. As of the rest of the argument, I couldn't agree more. But consolidation in the aviation sector here, in north america and in europe is a reality.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 26):
Go to Asia, and see the choices they have.

Go to Asia, a market that has 9 times more population and is on the verge of dominating the world economy. Most asian airline groups are at least the size of AviancaTaca, and the large countries have three or four of those. So let's also keep that in context.
 
777jaah
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:55 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 25):
I think that Avianca's main weakness is the crumbling colombian aviation infrastructure

Uhmmm, don't agree really with you. AV's (Including TA) main pronlem, in my point of view, is the lack of on-board service consistency. And you can find that in domestic and intl flights. Their hard product is improving and fast, but I really think they can have some standards set, not like having a mix of 330-319 service to JFK, which clearly undermines the sense of improving a hard product, when both are so different.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 22):
not because I necessarily think Avianca is a stronger brand than TACA

I'm sure they did their job. You can question and argue about the results, but still, don't think it was a decision taken on how much of the new company is owned by ex-AV shareholders....

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 22):
one brand makes them more competitive vs. LAN

Sure, makes perfect sense. Will LA and JJ do the same??

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 26):
Like everywhere else, they fly Avianca because of schedules and because it is cheap. By NO means, does it represent exemplary service

Just like what I can explain of the things one can see flying IB....nothing but price driven folks.
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
falkerker
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 26):
In response you concentrate on Colombia, which is precisely where Abrelosojos stated as the exemption.


Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 26):
Go to Asia, and see the choices they have.

Couldn't agree more. Sadly, AV top officials have taken colombian market for granted and are not trying to improve the service by any means. A very close friend of mine works with a Maintenance Software Company and told me AV maintenance charts were kept in excel spreadsheets like if it was the mid 1990s, if that's going on in such an important part as maintenance, nothing can be expected from there. Furtthermore, I don't think we will ever see a great and diverse offer like in Asia (sadly), mainly due to our very own customs and expectations. For what I've seen with the new LCC in colombia (VIVA) is that they are having a VERY bad experience trying to explain to their customers what LCC are about. People expect they can pay 10 bucks for a ticket and still have tons of legroom, take 2 bags and 2 carry-ons and have a full meal on board and they get VERY upset when they realize that is not reality, but hey, welcome to the 21st century and $100 oil prices.

On the other hand, I do not agree AV hard product is by any means "good", I feel their Y product is standard at best and what they call "bussiness class" any other top airline would barely sell as Premium Economy. Myself and my coworkers are AV Platinum and whenever going to Europe we all prefer LH over AV and now they joined *A, I'm pretty sure we will hardly fly AV again (their service attitude and hard product are subpar with international competition)

[Edited 2012-08-15 07:58:07]
 
757MDE
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 26):
Thanks summa767 for your comment. This is exactly the kind of reason why I avoid commenting on threads involving Latin aviation. Common business sense seems to be put aside for national flag waving.

Since this thread has (and almost will likely continue to) evolve into a generally Colombia vs. Non-Colombian perspective, I will refrain from partaking in it any further -- but will maintain that outside Colombia, NO ONE gets a super sense of pride flying iconic Avianca. Like everywhere else, they fly Avianca because of schedules and because it is cheap. By NO means, does it represent exemplary service.

I am Colombian and I agree 100% on the flag waving situation and the airline's perception overseas opinion.
Sadly it does not apply only to Avianca, this country is as chauvinistic as they come.

Quoting falkerker (Reply 29):
For what I've seen with the new LCC in colombia (VIVA) is that they are having a VERY bad experience trying to explain to their customers what LCC are about. People expect they can pay 10 bucks for a ticket and still have tons of legroom, take 2 bags and 2 carry-ons and have a full meal on board and they get VERY upset when they realize that is not reality, but hey, welcome to the 21st century and $100 oil prices.

That applies to most businesses here.
But on the other hand, for what I've seen and talked with some people in the airline, Viva is actually doing kind of good on the loads and general operation, even if they've had one or two episodes with delays.

Quoting falkerker (Reply 29):
On the other hand, I do not agree AV hard product is by any means "good", I feel their Y product is standard at best

I usually fly economy and with this I can agree. People are too blinded by the shiny new PTV and A320 and overlook the rest. I had a much better experience with SAS on an old MD-82 last June than on an Avianca A320 on the same period. Not saying the Avianca service was bad, it was just standard and I would use them again if the price is right (many times it is not), but that's as far as it goes for now. I do believe there's potential though, but many hurdles have to be overcome, including some Colombian idiosyncrasy related ones.

[Edited 2012-08-15 10:34:16]
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A388
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 30):
I usually fly economy and with this I can agree. People are too blinded by the shiny new PTV and A320 and overlook the rest. I had a much better experience with SAS on an old MD-82 last June than on an Avianca A320 on the same period

Having flown AV several times now and again this friday, I agree that the flight attendants weren't always that friendly to the passengers what I've seen but their inflight product to me isn't sub-par. KL only introduced the PTV's on their 744's and MD11's a year or two ago. I remember LH also doesn't have PTV's in some of their newer aircraft delivered. It all depends on what is important to the passenger. I don't mind the behavior of cabin crew much as I don't see them before and after the flight anyways. What's more important to me is the entertainment system which is why I love the PTV's AV has. The food is also important but less so to me (the food was good on two of the three flights I took so far). Their IFE system on the other hand is good but this is just my opinion.

A388
 
757MDE
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 31):
Having flown AV several times now and again this friday, I agree that the flight attendants weren't always that friendly to the passengers what I've seen but their inflight product to me isn't sub-par. KL only introduced the PTV's on their 744's and MD11's a year or two ago. I remember LH also doesn't have PTV's in some of their newer aircraft delivered. It all depends on what is important to the passenger. I don't mind the behavior of cabin crew much as I don't see them before and after the flight anyways. What's more important to me is the entertainment system which is why I love the PTV's AV has. The food is also important but less so to me (the food was good on two of the three flights I took so far). Their IFE system on the other hand is good but this is just my opinion.

A388

That is absolutely valid.

My point is that people in this country tend to give more merit to some things than they really have, and when confronted with the opinion of an outsider that does not care whether the airline is Colombian and that it has a lot in Colombia history, and that thinks that the airline is just standard and not the gift of god to aviation it tends to create flag-waving reactions. I've seen it many times, online and in real life.

The IFE of Avianca is very good indeed. I just don't give much importance to it because when I fly I usually watch the map only and then listen to music on my own player and watch outside the window. I may at times use it, for example in may flying LAX - NRT on a SQ A380 I watched a movie... but it's usually not such a big factor for me. So this would be subjective, but yes, it's better to have IFE than not to have it.

Me, I don't dislike Avianca at all. I again believe there's potential, I have used them and would use them again. But it's as bad not to recognize the transformation from the past as it is to give it way more merit than it has.
I think abrelosojos' opinion was spot on and I agree with it, even being Colombian and knowing some bits of the Airline's story here than an outsider may not.
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viaggiare
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:28 pm

Just a couple years ago Kriete saw this as a very long–term possibility.. his exact words were "unificar marcas es una posibilidad muy a largo plazo" — since then corporate hq was quietly moved to Bogotá and now brand unification is in full swing.. heck even señor Kriete himself is Colombian these days.

On a side note, well–placed sources tell me their mid–level exec friends at TACA "all are like zombies" lately, some of them polishing their resumes and using vacation days to interview elsewhere, as "eventually only a skeleton will be left in San Salvador".
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:24 pm

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 28):
Uhmmm, don't agree really with you. AV's (Including TA) main pronlem, in my point of view, is the lack of on-board service consistency.

That could be true. I've had bad experiences with catering, specially ex-BOG and most recently ex-MAD they gave me some pretty bad food.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 28):
Just like what I can explain of the things one can see flying IB....nothing but price driven folks.

Indeed, on a fully anecdotal claim, IB is most of the time at least 20% cheaper than it's competiton when it comes to Latam-MAD flights.

Quoting falkerker (Reply 29):
Sadly, AV top officials have taken colombian market for granted and are not trying to improve the service by any means.

I disagree. The recent launch of point-to-point routes from various colombian stations, the introduction of jet flights on the MDE-Coast routes and a wider choice of frequencies and destinations seem to prove you wrong also. As far as it goes to the other things, I repeat again tha BOG's horrible infrastructure has a lot to do with it, it's clear that the Puente Aéreo, though very convenient, is not desingned to handle that amount of traffic, thus the lounge is always overcrowded and the lines at the counters are always long. Also, AV's careless planning in staffing led to some FA shortages that badly affected the operation, the company should take full blame for that too.

Quoting falkerker (Reply 29):
A very close friend of mine works with a Maintenance Software Company and told me AV maintenance charts were kept in excel spreadsheets like if it was the mid 1990s, if that's going on in such an important part as maintenance, nothing can be expected from there.

Why would you put such an isolated practice and make it the standard of how a company works internally and in face to it's customers? Use a better example.

Quoting falkerker (Reply 29):
For what I've seen with the new LCC in colombia (VIVA) is that they are having a VERY bad experience trying to explain to their customers what LCC are about.

They are, and basically because colombians are vandals. I couldn't believe when those people actually went to the platform in BOG and took over a plane from the airline. I would have dropped a ton of tear gas and kicked their asses out of there ipso facto, but nothing was done from the authorities (or lack thereof).

Quoting falkerker (Reply 29):
On the other hand, I do not agree AV hard product is by any means "good", I feel their Y product is standard at best and what they call "bussiness class" any other top airline would barely sell as Premium Economy.

Their Y product is much better than what any european or US airline offers these days on shorthaul flights, as well as many other companies. Improvements can be done,

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 30):
I am Colombian and I agree 100% on the flag waving situation and the airline's perception overseas opinion.
Sadly it does not apply only to Avianca, this country is as chauvinistic as they come.

Well I can do nothing but reject the that you are acknowledging that abrelosojos reduced my argument as a "flag waving" situation. I provided facts that are proven. The discussion on wether colombians are chauvinistic or not is another one, but it is FACT that Avianca is an iconic brand to colombians. His cocky "what iconic brand" statement was not only blunt but wrong.

Also, I don't understand why the only criteria to name a brand "iconic" is Mr. Abrelosojos' "excellence in service" standard. KLM is an icon of worldwide aviation because they are the first commercial airline still in operation, have managed to develop an amazing world class hub in such a small country as the Netherlands and yet are not ranked as a 5 star airline on Skytrax or offer orchids and silk piyamas to their business class passengers, nor hav ePTV's on all of their long haul fleet.

I agree that flag waving comments are annoying. But so is the "lambonería" to those who have some sort of superiority. As chauvinistic as colombians can be, they are also blindly driven by those people who appear to have some sort of "authority". Just because abrelosojos has written some articles on aviation magazines (which are in general also very subjective publications with little journalistic credentials), and has flown more than the average person, doesn't mean he can say what is right and wrong with everything.

All I said is Avianca is an iconic brand. Well, it is. No one has proven my facts wrong, and instead went on to say that i'm "flag waving", whatever that unfortunate term means. I am very crytical of many of the things in my country, because many are wrong. I am very critical of how latin americans treat their problems, putting their national pride first instead of logic.

Avianca has to improve in some areas, and is by no means a beacon of airline service excellence, but they're definitely a very important company in Colombia, so let's end this deconstructivist spin once and for all. I can't believe I get into these huge hurdles because I decide to stand up for my true statement against a rude, unfounded remark made against it, while actually showing facts about what I said!

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 30):
I usually fly economy and with this I can agree. People are too blinded by the shiny new PTV and A320 and overlook the rest

Then what is wrong with economy? What should those who are blinded by the new shiny PTV expect? Better FA attitude, ok, that's an area where they can improve. Legroom? Better than the world standard. Food? Standard. Seats? Better than standard in short haul, for mid-haul and longhaul this is disputable. What else?

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 30):
I had a much better experience with SAS on an old MD-82 last June than on an Avianca A320 on the same period. Not saying the Avianca service was bad, it was just standard and I would use them again if the price is right (many times it is not)

SAS has BOB, was it that you had nicer FA's? (which believe me, is a miracle on short haul european flights)

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 32):
My point is that people in this country tend to give more merit to some things than they really have, and when confronted with the opinion of an outsider that does not care whether the airline is Colombian and that it has a lot in Colombia history, and that thinks that the airline is just standard and not the gift of god to aviation it tends to create flag-waving reactions.

I agree. But as I stated above, I can't believe the attitude you have taken against my remark. Avianca is iconic to colombians, that makes it an iconic brand. I'm not saying it is the gift of god to aviation, never inteded to do so. but they are an iconic brand. So was RG, which was no prize at the end of it's days. So is KL.

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 32):
But it's as bad not to recognize the transformation from the past as it is to give it way more merit than it has.

Indeed.

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 32):
I think abrelosojos' opinion was spot on and I agree with it, even being Colombian and knowing some bits of the Airline's story here than an outsider may not.

I think abrelosojos' opinion was cocky and out of context, but that's just ways of seeing things.

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 33):
Just a couple years ago Kriete saw this as a very long–term possibility.. his exact words were "unificar marcas es una posibilidad muy a largo plazo" — since then corporate hq was quietly moved to Bogotá and now brand unification is in full swing.. heck even señor Kriete himself is Colombian these days.

Yes, things have apparently said. Remember that when the merger was announced they were going to keep the two brands.

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 33):
On a side note, well–placed sources tell me their mid–level exec friends at TACA "all are like zombies" lately, some of them polishing their resumes and using vacation days to interview elsewhere, as "eventually only a skeleton will be left in San Salvador".

There have been a lot of salvadoreans transferring to Bogotá also.
 
falkerker
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 30):
People are too blinded by the shiny new PTV and A320 and overlook the rest
Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 34):
Then what is wrong with economy? What should those who are blinded by the new shiny PTV expect? Better FA attitude, ok, that's an area where they can improve. Legroom? Better than the world standard. Food? Standard. Seats? Better than standard in short haul, for mid-haul and longhaul this is disputable. What else?

That's exactly what happens, people get standard (at best) service and are convinced they just flew a 6 star airline because they have shiny new PTVs and new leather seats (on some selected a/c). Every single airline customer (whether AV, LM Royal Dutch Airlines">KL or a regional in the end of the world) should expect and demand what they are paying for. If paying LCC fares, expect a LCC but when paying fares as high as AV goes, one should expect food and FA service that is not "standard". If we as customers (and I am top tier LM) expect just standard, management will realize they can deliver "average" and still charge "premium".

I just flew BOG-BCN on AV and then BCN-SIN on SQ and the food on Y in SQ was equal if not better than what I received in J on AV (minus the tablecloth and such). I believe any airline should at least try to be as good as SQ and its similars so if they fail to do so, they will also have a very good product and not just give standard product and be happy with it.
 
757MDE
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:09 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 34):
The discussion on wether colombians are chauvinistic or not is another one, but it is FACT that Avianca is an iconic brand to colombians. His cocky "what iconic brand" statement was not only blunt but wrong.

To Colombians it is, even to myself to some extent (as I have clarified over and over, I am on Avianca's side -except for their usual fares- and applaud their late transformation).
But that does not mean the outside world gives crap about it, and that's the point I am trying to make. With all its rich history, I don't think the Avianca brand is a Pan Am or the like in this moment.
"Iconic" en Colombia? sure. Out of here, who cares?
Now, with this news of the consolidation, the Avianca brand may be advancing in this path if that's what they want (which I don't think it's a worthy goal in itself, but that's just my opinion), but right now I think they're not.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 34):
I agree that flag waving comments are annoying. But so is the "lambonería" to those who have some sort of superiority. As chauvinistic as colombians can be, they are also blindly driven by those people who appear to have some sort of "authority". Just because abrelosojos has written some articles on aviation magazines (which are in general also very subjective publications with little journalistic credentials), and has flown more than the average person, doesn't mean he can say what is right and wrong with everything.

If you're implying I am being "lambón" to abrelosojos you're dead wrong. I am "lambón" to no one, I just happen to agree with the guy this time.
Having said that and leaving abrelosojos out of it (at least in what has to do myself), I do agree with the idea you expose.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 34):
I am very crytical of many of the things in my country, because many are wrong. I am very critical of how latin americans treat their problems, putting their national pride first instead of logic.

You usually don't seem to.
But I don't judge, I barely know you for a few post I've read in a forum.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 34):
Avianca has to improve in some areas, and is by no means a beacon of airline service excellence, but they're definitely a very important company in Colombia, so let's end this deconstructivist spin once and for all.

The key is that, in Colombia only! (and maybe starting in other countries).
The outsiders (and even many Colombians) don't care about that, rather care about the overall experience given the price paid, and in that Avianca is standard, which does not mean is bad, just standard (IFE and all). And it's about time people start to recognize that and do not glorify what does not deserve to. I am sure there are myriads of good experiences with Avianca, but I hope I have made my point clear.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 34):
Then what is wrong with economy? What should those who are blinded by the new shiny PTV expect? Better FA attitude, ok, that's an area where they can improve. Legroom? Better than the world standard. Food? Standard. Seats? Better than standard in short haul, for mid-haul and longhaul this is disputable. What else?

Again, I have not said Avianca's economy is bad, what I have been trying to say all along is that it's not the ultrasuperperfectweonmarikisss economy some people paint, that it's just a standard overall experience (even more with the fares that Avianca usually charges ex Colombia) and that the shiny PTV and new A320s are not all there's to it, as much as I agree that they're positive, and that people should be able to understand that and strive to improve instead of throwing a fit everytime anyone touches their beloved Avianca.
(And this applies to many things here, but sure, that's another topic).

What "world standard" are you talking about? I flew MDE - MIA recently on an A320 and it was sort of cramped, not horrible, but not "better than world standard" in my view. Again, I flew an Aerogal A320 before UIO - MDE and it was the most comfortable economy I have tried within the group.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 34):
SAS has BOB, was it that you had nicer FA's? (which believe me, is a miracle on short haul european flights)

The whole experience was better, including the attitude of all the people involved (from check-in the the Pilots, what a bunch of nice people, and that was consistent on 4 flights) and legroom in the Airplane, not ultra better but for sure, in my experience, felt a lot better throughout than the aforementioned A320.
I would not expect anything more than BOB on flights like the ones I had of 1:30 or so, and it's not like airlines here give more than a beverage and maybe a small snack on those kinds of flights either.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 34):
I agree. But as I stated above, I can't believe the attitude you have taken against my remark. Avianca is iconic to colombians, that makes it an iconic brand. I'm not saying it is the gift of god to aviation, never inteded to do so. but they are an iconic brand. So was RG, which was no prize at the end of it's days. So is KL.

I did not say you or your post specifically, but it's a common attitude here and it's getting tiring.
Your remark goes in line with that though, even if you did not literally say it.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 34):
I think abrelosojos' opinion was cocky and out of context, but that's just ways of seeing things.

I think it was just spot on in this case, but sure, you are certainly entitled to look at it in a different way.
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kiramakora
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:23 am

RCS763AV, seriously? What are you going on and on about? All Alex said was simple -

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 22):
= What iconic Avianca brand? Outside Colombia, I don't think most people associate exemplary service with Avianca.

He disagrees (and I agree) with the fact that outside Colombia (like here in Argentina), Avianca is considered as poor airline and generally associated with drug running flight attendants. In that case, of course, it is ICONIC  .

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 22):
Having said that, I think it is a good move - not because I necessarily think Avianca is a stronger brand than TACA, but I think one brand makes them more competitive vs. LAN.

Moreover, as you see above, abrelosojos actually thinks the idea of one brand of Avianca good and that it makes good business sense. He does not think Avianca or TACA particularly has strong brand loyalty one way or the other outside their home regions. Isn't this correct?

I really don't understand why you are so upset, and why you have to criticize all the other people who are agreeing with him!!!
 
kiramakora
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:32 am

I was curious on abrelosojos actual thinking of Avianca so found two reports by him.

In 2006 he writes,

IV > Impressions + Score:

While Avianca would not win any global competition, it is definitely one of the best carriers in Latin America at the moment and finally reflects the natural charm and hospitality of the Colombian people. The warm crew hospitality and punctual service satisfied my need for being transported from point A to point B without stress and made me overlook the poor inflight meal and entertainment options. If an AV employee reads this, I would strongly recommend having English training for the crew AND having English Colombian immigration forms. These forms are pretty complicated and are in Spanish. Worse, the Avianca magazine has directions also only in Spanish. I would fly them again without hesitation.

In 2009, he writes,

There have been some fantastic cosmetic changes in the recent past, and new orders have ensured that today’s Avianca is certainly more ambitious in its understanding of its role in Latin aviation. However, you cannot lipstick over issues. Don’t get me wrong … AV has improved and its hardware (IFE, new aircraft, etc.) are excellent. However, it must focus on the software – minor issues such as poor AVOD selection aside, it MUST work on its people. I encountered poor customer service at their call centers, at ground in BOG, and most disappointingly in air. Only JFK ground crew (outsourced) salvaged my interactions with Avianca workers. Avianca was my first trip report (on the same JFK-BOG routing) and its score is still 2nd best amongst all Economy medium and long haul experiences. Unfortunately (and disappointingly) this Avianca comes nothing close. And sadly, it is more typical to my experiences of late on the airline. While I most certainly fly them again, I can no longer give them thumps up or endorse them without a heavy heart.

Isn't this really true?
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 33):
this as a very long–term possibility.. his exact words were "unificar marcas es una posibilidad muy a largo plazo"

This is a very dynamic world. All the point of views are changing faster than ever.
I remember in 2007 when both AV and TA fought separately between themselves to enter into Star Alliance. Suddenly, the AV-TA merger came into force and this commercial pact gave more power to AV-TA Holdings in order to follow a common objective, taking into account the fierce competition offered by CM and LATAM. "Si no los vences, únete a ellos."

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
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viaggiare
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:55 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 34):
Remember that when the merger was announced they were going to keep the two brands.

That's what the agreement drafted by a handful of high–profile consultants from Merrill Lynch, Caoba Capital, Greenberg Traurig, Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP and Gómez–Pinzón Zuleta originally said.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 39):
This is a very dynamic world

So dynamic that negotiations began while señor Kriete was staying at the Waldorf Astoria in Manhattan.
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:56 am

Quoting kiramakora (Reply 37):
RCS763AV, seriously? What are you going on and on about? All Alex said was simple -

Oh I am very serious. I´m going on about my argument and how everybody decided to jump ship and attack it without even reading what I was saying. And as far as I know, I can go on and on about whatever I please in this forum, as long as it is aviation related. So back off.

Quoting kiramakora (Reply 37):
He disagrees (and I agree) with the fact that outside Colombia (like here in Argentina), Avianca is considered as poor airline and generally associated with drug running flight attendants.

There should be a ban on bigots in this forum, really. What year are you in, 1994?

Quoting kiramakora (Reply 37):

I really don't understand why you are so upset, and why you have to criticize all the other people who are agreeing with him!!!

Because what upsets me is that not only he went ballistic over a valid argument over his untrue statement - Avianca is an iconic brand, even if it's just in Colombia, which is by no means a small percentage of the latin american population. If he had said "Avianca is not an icon ouside of Colombia", that's something, but saying it's not an icon is incorrect. And all of a sudden, just because he writes nice trip reports and has done a couple of magazine articles, i'm a chauvinistic "flag waver".

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 39):
I remember in 2007 when both AV and TA fought separately between themselves to enter into Star Alliance. Suddenly, the AV-TA merger came into force and this commercial pact gave more power to AV-TA Holdings in order to follow a common objective

They were fighting separately to enter Star in 2007? I remember TA being on a solid track, but AV was more of a "codeshare whore" back then, and everyone thinking they were leaning toward Skyteam due to their close relationship with DL.
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:25 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 41):
I remember TA being on a solid track, but AV was more of a "codeshare whore" back then, and everyone thinking they were leaning toward Skyteam due to their close relationship with DL.

AV used to sustain code-share agreements with airlines involved into the three main worldwide alliances in that year and this fact didn't explain us if AV was actually heading to SkyTeam grouping.
In those days, CM was clearly aligned with the former CO and SkyTeam undermining the possibility for its mighty rival called AV. Thus, SkyTeam in those days didn't find any gap in Central America as well as the northern region of South America. On the contrary, Star Alliance had TACA and AVIANCA as the viable candidates; each fighting separately as pointing out above.
Things were easier since the AV-TA merger came into force and taking into account the introduction of LH FRA-BOG back in October 2010. The realistic obstacle some months backward was CM heading to both UA and Star Alliance as well. The conclusion is that there was room for all of them into Star Alliance grouping.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
MATURRO727
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:17 am

RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:25 am

Quoting falkerker (Reply 29):
A very close friend of mine works with a Maintenance Software Company and told me AV maintenance charts were kept in excel spreadsheets like if it was the mid 1990s, if that's going on in such an important part as maintenance, nothing can be expected from there.

Well I don’t know where or how your friend herd or found about this cause frankly I saw the exact same opposite. Maintenance department in AV is probably one of the best, most organized and high tech facilities you’ll ever see in Latin America. Im telling you this because I have been in their training facilities in Fontibon and they are just amazing, not even the crew training facilities are that new. They have several MFTD’s(maintenance and flight training device) and all training is done by CBT(computer based training). Avianca Services which provide maintenance for Avianca-Taca subsidiary airlines and to third party airlines. They also have some contracts to train maintenance personal for a other airlines in Latin America in F50, F100, DC9, B757/767 and A32S equipment. Maintenance to third party airlines is also done by Avianca Services.

Doesn’t seem to me this is mid 90’s at all. Hopefully one day you get to see it as I did and you will be surprised.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 22):
What iconic Avianca brand? Outside Colombia, I don't think most people associate exemplary service with Avianca.

I think they are very iconic within Colombia. But as recently stated earlier, outside Colombia nobody cares.



regards.


MATURRO727
 
kiramakora
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:00 am

RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:27 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 41):
There should be a ban on bigots in this forum, really. What year are you in, 1994?

Why do you resort to personal attacks? First against abrelosojos, then against all the people who understood what he said, and now against me? I did not say I think Avianca has drug runners. I said that is the impression of the airline here. Just like you think Avianca is an iconic brand.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 41):
Because what upsets me is that not only he went ballistic over a valid argument over his untrue statement - Avianca is an iconic brand, even if it's just in Colombia, which is by no means a small percentage of the latin american population. If he had said "Avianca is not an icon ouside of Colombia", that's something,

Did his comment below really make him go "ballistic"? And he did say outside Colombia.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 22):
= What iconic Avianca brand? Outside Colombia, I don't think most people associate exemplary service with Avianca.

I also don't understand your nationalistic comments.
 
MATURRO727
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:17 am

RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:47 am

Quoting kiramakora (Reply 44):
Why do you resort to personal attacks? First against abrelosojos, then against all the people who understood what he said, and now against me? I did not say I think Avianca has drug runners. I said that is the impression of the airline here. Just like you think Avianca is an iconic brand.

Well I do get what you are trying to say here but for Colombians that was very dark and sensitive times. Perhaps not the best comment to say out here. Personally I lived in Argentina for a couple of years while being into aviation industry and never heard such things from anybody. In the US is a common thing to hear that from people but no from Argentineans.



regards

MATURRO727
 
kiramakora
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:00 am

RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:27 pm

Quoting MATURRO727 (Reply 45):
Well I do get what you are trying to say here but for Colombians that was very dark and sensitive times. Perhaps not the best comment to say out here. Personally I lived in Argentina for a couple of years while being into aviation industry and never heard such things from anybody. In the US is a common thing to hear that from people but no from Argentineans.



regards

MATURRO727

Example of NY Times article from a few days back. This is the idea of Colombia here in Argentina as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/wo...tina-has-become-a-destination.html
 
falkerker
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:53 pm

RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:51 pm

Quoting MATURRO727 (Reply 43):
Well I don’t know where or how your friend herd or found about this cause frankly I saw the exact same opposite.

He works for a maintenance software firm based in Florida, thay manage the maintenance software of airlines like TK, AC and southwest and now AV is hiring their services, they are sending 3 project managers to BOG, 2 to SAL and 1 to Quito. And all they had prior to starting this venture was spreadsheets. One of the project managers said, and I qoute, "thank goodness their 787 aren't due until 2014, it would be a mess before then"
 
bogota
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:10 am

RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting kiramakora (Reply 46):
This is the idea of Colombia here in Argentina as well.

Colombia has had to carry the image of the drug problem created mostly by consuming nations such as Argentina among many others, and yes Argentina is at the place where Mexico was ten years ago, blaming Colombia for becoming a transit nation of drugs. We all know the result.

On the other hand my experience is that calling Avianca standard is not exactly correct, with the exception of a handfull of airlines in Europe, basically none in North America, maybe two in Latin America and a few in Asia/Middle East airlines in general are far below in hard product and maybe similar or below in soft product.

I understand that is may not be the best airline in the world, it has a lot of issues with keeping quality up to their standard with all those old folks that still work there, but going all over the place trying to disqualify the progress the airline has made and that evidently has saved them from dissappearing just for the fashion of critizing and comparing it to airlines like Singapore is being cocky at its best.
 
falkerker
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:53 pm

RE: Taca Rebrand As Avianca - To Use AV Code

Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting bogota (Reply 48):
I understand that is may not be the best airline in the world, it has a lot of issues with keeping quality up to their standard with all those old folks that still work there, but going all over the place trying to disqualify the progress the airline has made and that evidently has saved them from dissappearing just for the fashion of critizing and comparing it to airlines like Singapore is being cocky at its best.
Quoting 757MDE (Reply 32):
But it's as bad not to recognize the transformation from the past as it is to give it way more merit than it has.

It is evident it has made gigantic leaps forward, what I fear is they are thinking that is enough and they need not improve. Furthermore, I think it is not cocky to compare them to SQ, I believe it is what every airline should compare itself to and what they should attempt to get to. Besides everyone in every industry is going to get compared to its gold standard, and everyone should try to focus on being as close to it as possible.

What I'm saying is we are not disqualifying their progress we are just saying many folks (customers, workers and management) believe that just because they have made this progress, there is nothing left to improve and that is what I believe is wrong.

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