skyhawk
Topic Author
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:08 pm

I have a question for anyone- on his way home from work today(he works at LGA) my husband heard on WABC at 2:30 PM that the FAA had reversed their previous ruling and had decided to ban the extensions. Does anybody know of this? Have any of you heard the same news blip?

Without a doubt this would affect millions of people. BTW-I don't mean this to get into a discussion of the size of people involved, just wondering how this would be handled. Do you think that the seatbelt itself would have to be changed? Thanks ahead of time for all of the discussion.
 
kiwiandrew

Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:10 pm

Based on this story :

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/lifestyl...onal-seat-belt-extenders-says-faa/

A seat belt is required for every passenger on board a flight. Airlines provide extenders, which, along with seat belts, are inspected and maintained under each airline’s Continuous Airworthiness Maintenance Program, according to the FAA.

While some seat belt extenders may be labeled FAA-approved, the agency warns they are not inspected and maintained and should not be used.


It seems to be a matter of banning people from bringing their own non-approved extenders instead of using ones supplied by the airlines.

[Edited 2012-08-14 12:13:33]

[Edited 2012-08-14 12:14:03]
 
BEG2IAH
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:14 pm

I hope they ban use of extensions in exit rows. I see it as a problem in an evacuation. Just sat next to a guy who needed it and it took this guy up to 10 seconds to just sit down, let alone what would be going on if we needed to evacuate and open that overwing exit.
Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.
 
skyhawk
Topic Author
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:18 pm

BEG2IAH-seat belt extensions are already not permitted in the emergency exits, and for the exact reasons you cited.
 
AirframeAS
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:19 pm

I think some of you guys are misunderstanding this. The seat belt extenders that are provided by the airline are, in fact, permitted under FAA rules. They have the FAA-PMA on the tag of the seat belt extenders. They are replaced frequently since some people abuse the extenders. However, what is NOT allowed on the airplane is the use of your own personal seat belt extender. It does not matter if it has the FAA-PMA on the tag of your own personal extender. It has to do with liability in the event that your personal seat belt extender fails. It also helps the airline's CYA.

The airline supplied seat belt extenders are still legal to use today and is quite safe to use, so use what the airline gives you instead of your own.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 2):
I hope they ban use of extensions in exit rows.

I think the safety card states at most U.S. airlines that you must be able to assist in an evacuation and must be able bodied or something along the lines of that. So if you are a customer of size, you are more than likely disqualified and would be reseated elsewhere in the plane.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
BEG2IAH
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting skyhawk (Reply 3):
BEG2IAH-seat belt extensions are already not permitted in the emergency exits, and for the exact reasons you cited.

If they are not, my favorite airline is ignoring the rule.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
I think the safety card states at most U.S. airlines that you must be able to assist in an evacuation and must be able bodied or something along the lines of that. So if

I witnessed more than once that these guys would just answer 'yes' when asked if they were "able and willing to assist the crew in case of an emergency". I wouldn't worry too much if the overwing exit door would rotate up and open to the outside (B737 NG), but when you need to pull it in (say A320) and leave it on a seat before evacuation starts, I'm not sure if there would be enough space to manoeuvre the door around your fellow passenger.
Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.
 
AirframeAS
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 5):

I witnessed more than once that these guys would just answer 'yes' when asked if they were "able and willing to assist the crew in case of an emergency".

I have a slight problem with that. They only say "yes" just to get the FA out of their faces so that they can go back to their music/newspaper/magazine or whatever. It is annoying.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 5):
I wouldn't worry too much if the overwing exit door would rotate up and open to the outside (B737 NG)

Not trying to invoke a B vs. A war here, but Boeing got this one right. This is how it should have been to begin with. I hope Airbus adopts this on their NEO's. Or better yet, adopt it now.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
HALFA
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
Not trying to invoke a B vs. A war here, but Boeing got this one right. This is how it should have been to begin with. I hope Airbus adopts this on their NEO's. Or better yet, adopt it now.

Hmmm.
HA's Boeing 717's and 767's do not have over wing window exit doors that rotate up and open to the outside.
All of our Boeing aircraft over wing window exit doors pull in and are placed on seats. Ironically, all of the exits on our Airbus 330 aircraft open outwards and are not placed on seats.

Aloha,
HALFA
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737tdi
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:06 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
Not trying to invoke a B vs. A war here, but Boeing got this one right. This is how it should have been to begin with. I hope Airbus adopts this on their NEO's. Or better yet, adopt it now.




Please go ahead and hang onto the handle sir, LOL, Have you ever felt the force that these exits open? They will pull you out of the aircraft if you pull and don't know whats coming. There aren't 2% of the FA's that could close one of them.. Release that and you are going out if you don't know what to do. Folks just don't listen to the pre-flight. Yank it and let go. If you don't, Hell i've already said that. I think it would incredibly hilarious if a passenger pulled a NG over wing exit, as long as it wasn't an emergency????

737tdi
 
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Aesma
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:28 am

I never heard about people bringing their own extensions. With what 737tdi said, aren't they likely to be stolen from another flight ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
RebelDJ
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:46 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 5):
but when you need to pull it in (say A320) and leave it on a seat before evacuation starts,

I think you're meant to pull it in, twist it and then throw it out of the hole.
 
tdscanuck
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:57 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 9):
Please go ahead and hang onto the handle sir, LOL, Have you ever felt the force that these exits open?

Yep.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 9):
They will pull you out of the aircraft if you pull and don't know whats coming.

Why would you keep holding on as it pulls you out of the aircraft? My experience is that most people can't hold on because it catches them by surprise. Even if it does pull you out of the aircraft, it's just going to dump you on the wing (where you presumably wanted to end up anyway).

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 9):
There aren't 2% of the FA's that could close one of them.

They were designed to be easy to open, not easy to close. You're not in a hurry when you're trying to close it.

Tom.
 
135mech
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:32 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 11):
I never heard about people bringing their own extensions. With what 737tdi said, aren't they likely to be stolen from another flight ?



That (because we know people like "collectibles" lol...) happens, but also...those individuals (for various reasons) that stay "large" and fly regularly could have researched and bought their own for the sole case that some airlines may have not had enough on some of their previous flights, so they do this to ensure they have safety of their own.
135Mech
 
FURUREFA
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:19 pm

Quoting RebelDJ (Reply 12):
Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 5):
but when you need to pull it in (say A320) and leave it on a seat before evacuation starts,

I think you're meant to pull it in, twist it and then throw it out of the hole.

It depends on each airlines individual procedure. Some airlines require throwing the exit out the whole, while others require it be left on the seat.
 
B6JFKH81
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 11):
I never heard about people bringing their own extensions. With what 737tdi said, aren't they likely to be stolen from another flight ?

I've seen it before and I stopped it on more than one flight that I was traveling on. How old is that extension? Is it rated 16G? Was it made by someone who has a PMA to manufacture them as per the regulatory standards? Can I please see the 8130 cert for that part? Has it been inspected by the airline's QC Receiving Inspectors to ensure it is approved for use on THAT airline? I see you are seated in an extra legroom seat which is equipped with an airbag seatbelt, the extension is supposed to stop that airbag from going off because it'll do more harm than good....does your de-activate the airbag? The answer will most likely always be a "deer in the headlights look" from the customer if those questions are asked, so instead I kindly request they use one that has been approved by the airline LOL.

~H81

[Edited 2012-08-15 11:48:56 by srbmod]
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
GentFromAlaska
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
While some seat belt extenders may be labeled FAA-approved, the agency warns they are not inspected and maintained

From the smallest of safety aspects I can appreciate what the FAA is trying to do. With that said I've never seen a seat belt or extender fail on a plane, car or boat. What's next the banning of personal earphones and ear-buds because they may cause electrical shock if used in flight.

I'm not sure if the airlines provide seat belt extenders free of charge or they cost. The FAA decision could potentially allow the airlines to continue to nickle and dime the flying public or sell passengers of girth two seats. Ten or so years ago did anyone ever see the airlines charging for overhead bin space when fee based checked luggage was implemented?
'
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virgincrew
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 2):
I hope they ban use of extensions in exit rows. I see it as a problem in an evacuation. Just sat next to a guy who needed it and it took this guy up to 10 seconds to just sit down, let alone what would be going on if we needed to evacuate and open that overwing exit.

In the UK, extension seat belts are not allowed at exit rows, exactly for that reason.... it could hinder an evacuation.
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
BC77008
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 22):
I am not a flight attendant. I am a member of the Technical Operations/Technical Supply Chain team for my airline. It's our responsibility to ensure unapproved aircraft parts don't get "installed" on our planes. I'm not saying it should be the responsibility of the F/As onboard to do what I have done in the past, as I have handled thousands upon thousands of these extensions over the years and know the manufacturer, model, proper color, etc., which is why I can normally tell if someone is using their own. I was just making a point that I have seen people use their own before...

I'm sure that some of them do use their own, and of course if I were to notice it, I would hand them one of our own extensions... but the key word there is "notice" and if I don't notice it, then I continue on. I did make a mistake not too long ago when a rather large woman asked me for a seatbelt extension and I told her I would be happy to get her one. About 10 minutes later before I shut the main cabin door I accidentally delivered the seatbelt extension to an even larger woman that didn't ask for one but somehow managed to get the seatbelt around her.
"He waited his whole damn life to take that flight. And as the plane crashed down he thought 'Well isn't this nice...'"
 
doug_or
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:14 pm

Quoting 135mech (Reply 14):
those individuals (for various reasons) that stay "large" and fly regularly could have researched and bought their own for the sole case that some airlines may have not had enough on some of their previous flights, so they do this to ensure they have safety of their own.

Or want to save themselves the embarrassment of asking every single flight.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
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mbm3
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:16 pm

Folks, not everyone who uses a selt belt extender is "a fat bastard" as many seem to think and comment here in this forum. Some of us tall folks - I am 6''4"/190cms - can be challenged by the belts even at our fighting weights, much less with a bit of middle aged spread. Given my strength, knowledge and willingness to assist, am I suddenly unfit for the exit row simply based on requesting an extension?
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MD-90
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:42 pm

This year's Lifeway (Southern Baptist publisher) theme for vacation bible school was called "Amazing Wonders of Aviation" and this was the VBS program we did at our church this year.

Someone bought in two seatbelt extenders to use as props for the kids to see and one of them was clearly certified since it was made by Amsafe and I believe had both TSO and PMA numbers on it. The other one was the oddball Southwest style belt and it had nothing on it saying it was certified.

[Edited 2012-08-15 10:44:52]
 
doug_or
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 25):

Folks, not everyone who uses a selt belt extender is "a fat bastard" as many seem to think and comment here in this forum. Some of us tall folks - I am 6''4"/190cms - can be challenged by the belts even at our fighting weights, much less with a bit of middle aged spread.

I've seen plenty of tall people fasten their seatbelts without the need of an extension. What exactly would you consider "fighting weight"? And how would you suggest plugs be kept out of the emergency exit row?
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
AirframeAS
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Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:00 pm

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 27):
And how would you suggest plugs be kept out of the emergency exit row?

Simple, assign them a seat elsewhere. That is why when you book your flight, the emergency exit row seats are blocked off for airport use only.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting RebelDJ (Reply 12):
I think you're meant to pull it in, twist it and then throw it out of the hole.

I've seen different instructions on different cards. Some say to pull it inside and put it on the seats (which involves raising the armrests to make room, which I can see becoming a problem in a panicked cabin filling with smoke and fire). Some say to toss it out the hole (which sounds like a recipe for a spark to me). I am not sure whether this depends on the manufacturer or the airline and I can't recall whether there was any consistency (A320's on the seats, 737's out the door, for example).

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 20):
I'm not sure if the airlines provide seat belt extenders free of charge or they cost. The FAA decision could potentially allow the airlines to continue to nickle and dime the flying public or sell passengers of girth two seats

That is exactly WN's policy, though. If you need two seats and cannot fit in one AND if the flight is full (you are taking a seat that would otherwise be taken by another paying passenger), then you must purchase both seats. That seems like a very fair and reasonable policy to me, although it raises outrage.
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EIDL
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RE: Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:23 pm

I've never seen instructions to say to leave the seat on the door on a full-scale narrow-body, but I have on regional jets and turboprops. Would imagine a 320 door is too big to bring inside!

737NGs have the advantage that the door just opens up and there's no need to put it anywhere.
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:36 pm

Quoting EIDL (Reply 27):
I've never seen instructions to say to leave the seat on the door on a full-scale narrow-body, but I have on regional jets and turboprops. Would imagine a 320 door is too big to bring inside!

Our Safety Info Cards (B6) do indicate to throw the door out onto the wing:

"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting EIDL (Reply 27):
I've never seen instructions to say to leave the seat on the door on a full-scale narrow-body, but I have on regional jets and turboprops. Would imagine a 320 door is too big to bring inside!

This is exactly what's printed on the door of A320 I was on on Sunday. It shows that you need to bring the door inside, although Airbus training videos on YouTube show that the door should be thrown out. Just imagine if the other guy one row behind you opened his door faster and people started evacuating and then you slam someone with your door. Maybe it's "throw second row door out", "leave the first one on the seat". No clue.
Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 14):

I think you'll find out that most of the personal lap belts are bought on eBay and had been stolen off other aircraft
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 30):
I think you'll find out that most of the personal lap belts are bought on eBay and had been stolen off other aircraft

You can also find some on Fab.com (my finacee loves this site) and get a Amsafe seat belt that is actually a belt for your pants. I have one actually. They are pretty cool! However, they are not TSO nor FAA-PMA approved. The belt flap inside says "For Non Aviation Use Only". So heed the warnings!!!!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
That is exactly WN's policy, though. If you need two seats and cannot fit in one AND if the flight is full (you are taking a seat that would otherwise be taken by another paying passenger), then you must purchase both seats.

I should have clarified my use of nickle and dime the flying public. I was referring to the airlines being allowed to rent seat belt extenders in lieu of allowing people to bring and use their own.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:29 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 32):
I was referring to the airlines being allowed to rent seat belt extenders in lieu of allowing people to bring and use their own.

If they bring their own:
1) It's incredibly unlikely to be FAA (or local equivalent regulator) approved therefore *illegal* for the airline to allow you to attach it to their aircraft.
2) There is no way for the airline to know if it will actually stand up to crash loads; if it does not when it has to, you're not just endangering yourself (in which case the airline probably wouldn't care as much) but the person in front of you...his seat is not designed to take 16g AND have someone hit it from behind at the same time.

Tom.
 
silentbob
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RE: Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:41 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):

I never heard about people bringing their own extensions. With what 737tdi said, aren't they likely to be stolen from another flight ?

Some are purchased online, others are from other aircraft. Every time someone tells me it's ok to use because they took it from another airplane I want to ask why they think admitting to being a thief is somehow better than asking for an extension.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:21 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 2):
I hope they ban use of extensions in exit rows. I see it as a problem in an evacuation. Just sat next to a guy who needed it and it took this guy up to 10 seconds to just sit down, let alone what would be going on if we needed to evacuate and open that overwing exit.

The Emergency exit seat should be occupied by a capable person in the 1st place.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
jeb94
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RE: Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:18 am

Not all airlines use the same seatbelts. Some are wider, some are narrower. You have to have an extender that matches the seatbelt installed. No one should use their own personal extender. There is also the matter of the FAA approval for the part. This certification includes the g-force restraint capability and the fire resistance. The extensions provided are inspected regularly by maintenace so they're kept in good shape. Its a bad idea to use your own, even if you took it from an airline on your last trip.
 
737tdi
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RE: Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:32 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 11):
Why would you keep holding on as it pulls you out of the aircraft? My experience is that most people can't hold on because it catches them by surprise. Even if it does pull you out of the aircraft, it's just going to dump you on the wing (where you presumably wanted to end up anyway).




Tom, I totally agree, you wouldn't think one would hang on, but absolutely no one listens to the F/A's or review the cards. I really don't think a layman would have time to let go prior to having their shins raked over the lower frame, and then of course they are going to blame the airline/Boeing/FAA. So sorry for the off topic post. I know the first time I opened one many years ago I was shocked at the force and I was slightly prepared.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: Banning Of Personal Seat Belt Extensions?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:19 pm

Does Underwriter Laboratories UL put their stamp of approval on seat belt extenders? Aircraft seat cushions which also double as a Type IV Personal Floatation Device (PFD) usually have dual certification from UL and the Coast Guard but not the FAA.

Where safety enters the equation It seems to me if the FAA accepts/acknowledges UL and CG approval for one aviation product then bring-on-board extenders with UL certification would also fly.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.