mattya9
Topic Author
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:36 pm

BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:32 pm

Just made news yesterday, Central Illinois airports BMI and CMI have received grants of $500,000 and $700,000, respectively, to try and add service to one or more of the 3 airports listed in the title.

http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local...0-e637-11e1-9161-001a4bcf887a.html

While I think this is great news for the area I know SPI tried this a couple years ago and it failed miserably. With that being said, I'm not sure if either of these airports will be able to support service like this let alone even get the service in the first place. Thoughts?

OPS 5
"You can do anything once."
 
lhcvg
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 2:53 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:45 pm

I'd say that DCA or LGA are both real long shots, but EWR and IAD aren't necessarily out of the question. It just depends on whether $500,000 is a tasy enough deal to bite on. The way I always look at these situations is that if there were serious demand or high yields, they would already be served. So their viability is already somewhat uncertain from that point. But someone may give it a shot; the real question is how long it will last once the subsidy guarantee runs out.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting mattya9 (Thread starter):
With that being said, I'm not sure if either of these airports will be able to support service like this let alone even get the service in the first place. Thoughts?

I think it's probably dependent on the subsidy. If they write somebody a check they can get the service, but I imagine the chances of keeping it in unsubsidized form are slim.

I know Mike Boyd makes a living puffing up small airports, but the idea of an east coast connection giving them access to Europe and Asia is laughable. Last time I checked, Chicago (and Atlanta) had flights to most of the places in Europe and Asia many people want to go anyway.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
steex
Posts: 1331
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:45 am

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:56 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 1):
I'd say that DCA or LGA are both real long shots, but EWR and IAD aren't necessarily out of the question. It just depends on whether $500,000 is a tasy enough deal to bite on.

Realistically, though, UA is the only airline (aside from subsidy-hunting F9) who would fly EWR or IAD, and UA doesn't serve either BMI or CMI today. UA once served BMI, but decided to surrender that market and focus on PIA instead. I would have serious doubts about the grant money being enough of a subsidy for them to bite on setting up a new stations in central Illinois.

Generally speaking, the strongest legacy player to these central Illinois airports has been AA, sustaining both ORD and DFW at BMI, CMI, and PIA. In terms of a legacy carrier, I think they'd be the best bet if they could be convinced to take a subsidy to connect one of these cities to LGA.
 
mattya9
Topic Author
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:36 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:40 pm

What if either one of those airports used the money to attract US to PHL or CLT? Once someone gets to PHL or CLT they pretty much can go, literally, anywhere throughout the northeast and most of the east coast. I know ORD, ATL, and DTW already have service to one or both BMI and CMI but would PHL or CLT might be a better (and closer) option for people wanting to get to the smaller cities in the northeast? Just my 2 cents.

OPS 5

Side question: How does US at PHL/CLT stack up against DL at ATL/JFK in terms of east coast presence? I know DL is the bigger carrier (especially in terms of INTL traffic) but US does pretty well for itself out there from what I know.
"You can do anything once."
 
aeroblogger
Posts: 1380
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:53 am

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:43 pm

I can't imagine AA flying BMI/CMI-LGA. DL would probably fit better on that route.
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
 
steex
Posts: 1331
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:45 am

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:54 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 5):
I can't imagine AA flying BMI/CMI-LGA. DL would probably fit better on that route.

I think DL makes more sense, but I don't think they'd be willing to give up 2-class RJ time (both routes are over 750 miles) to start either route. I don't think it's likely AA will fly these either, but if they're willing to fly CRW and XNA from LGA (though those have different market dynamics, I understand that), they might be willing to try one of the Central Illinois markets on an ERD/ERJ with a subsidy.
 
iFlyLOTs
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:45 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:56 pm

Has PIA ever tried to do this? Of the 4 airports in central Illinois (SPI, CMI, PIA and BMI) I feel that PIA would be a better fit. More terminal space and a more central location in the state, plus a larger population in the direct vicinity.
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
mattya9
Topic Author
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:36 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 7):

PIA definitely has the newer, nicer facility, and larger MSA population, however, BMI has the geographical advantage of the 4 airports. BMI is within an hour drive of PIA, SPI, and CMI.

OPS 5
"You can do anything once."
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 958
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:30 am

PIA also had Access Air for a little bit...
xx
 
FlyPeoria
Posts: 428
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:30 am

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:44 am

I'm pretty sure BMI is targeting New York and/or Washington for business travelers, so UA to EWR and IAD is probably their best bet. Close proximity to PIA might be a problem though. UA might be more likely to fly PIA-EWR and or PIA-IAD.

A few days before F9 announced BMI-DEN, there was talk of service to Washington. Presumably, they had DCA in mind.Don't know if F9 has enough slots, or that they'd use them for BMI-DEN flights.

CMI may have a better shot at convincing UA to start CMI-IAD. That SPI-IAD service failed because flights were routed ORD-SPI-IAD and were plagued by delays (and probably even cancellations). That wouldn't be a problem for just a CMI-IAD route.

G4 has shown some interest in NYC. Someday, they might pick an area facility (EWR?) and start flights to points in the Great Lakes and Plains States. Question is, would G4 pick BMI or PIA?
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 10):
G4 has shown some interest in NYC.

Other than ISP, what airport in the NYC region is going to have slots for G4?


 
 
FlyPeoria
Posts: 428
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:30 am

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:59 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 11):
Other than ISP, what airport in the NYC region is going to have slots for G4?

That's the trick. I picked EWR because I figured JFK and LGA would be less likely to have them available.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:08 am

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 10):
CMI may have a better shot at convincing UA to start CMI-IAD. That SPI-IAD service failed because flights were routed ORD-SPI-IAD and were plagued by delays (and probably even cancellations). That wouldn't be a problem for just a CMI-IAD route.

I'm not sure that CMI would be workable for any east coast flight. I'd think that any airline is better off flying to BMI or PIA to better capture business travelers. And for that matter a lot of people from Champaign would probably drive to the Bloomington to fly to the East Coast anyway if a flight at BMI existed.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
toltommy
Posts: 2497
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:16 am

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 12):
I picked EWR because I figured JFK and LGA would be less likely to have them available.

Is JFK slot restricted at all hours? B6 was able to launch originally because there was plenty of capacity at JFK outside the late afternoon push to Europe.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
I'd think that any airline is better off flying to BMI or PIA to better capture business travelers.

BMI is more centrally located for the entire region. Maybe DL will need to shuffle some of their new LGA slots and could plot a daily round trip?

Quoting steex (Reply 3):
UA once served BMI, but decided to surrender that market and focus on PIA instead. I would have serious doubts about the grant money being enough of a subsidy for them to bite on setting up a new stations in central Illinois.

Maybe get Skywest to fly it at-risk in UA colors. UA would be outsourcing a station that small anyway, station cost wouldn't be much.
 
FlyPeoria
Posts: 428
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:30 am

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:49 am

Quoting toltommy (Reply 14):
Is JFK slot restricted at all hours? B6 was able to launch originally because there was plenty of capacity at JFK outside the late afternoon push to Europe.

I seem to recall B6 was awarded 75 slots for startup.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 14):
BMI is more centrally located for the entire region. Maybe DL will need to shuffle some of their new LGA slots and could plot a daily round trip?

BMI is more centrally-located but they've failed to become the region's primary commercial airport, mainly because of PIA's much larger population base.

BMI attempted to get NYC or WAS service three times in the late 1990s and early 2000s. First was FL, which would have run a LGA-MLI-BMI-LGA flight (or vice-versa), then Chautauqua Airlines (under the US banner) wanted BMI-DCA/LGA. Finally, BMI talked to the revived Ozark Airlines to fly BMI-DCA. Nothing happened, obviously.

Both BMI and CMI are holding talks with UA about IAD flights. Success will come down to which one puts down more money.
 
FlyPeoria
Posts: 428
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:30 am

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:52 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
I'm not sure that CMI would be workable for any east coast flight. I'd think that any airline is better off flying to BMI or PIA to better capture business travelers. And for that matter a lot of people from Champaign would probably drive to the Bloomington to fly to the East Coast anyway if a flight at BMI existed.

If UA started CMI-IAD, they could draw pax from BMI, Danville, Rantoul and DEC. No guarantee that'll be enough, and AA will certainly match fares over ORD.
 
aeroblogger
Posts: 1380
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:53 am

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:07 am

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 15):
Both BMI and CMI are holding talks with UA about IAD flights. Success will come down to which one puts down more money.

Perhaps IAD-BMI-CMI-IAD might be able to leverage the money which both airports put down?
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 1680
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:12 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 17):

The BMI-CMI hop would eat up the grant money very quickly.
 
iFlyLOTs
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:45 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:16 am

Does CMI even have the ability to support a route to the likes of DC or NYC? They haven't really been able to sustain any other flights other than the few daily flights to ORD
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
mattya9
Topic Author
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:36 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:08 am

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 15):

For you to say PIA has become the primary commercial airport in Central Illinois is, obviously, your own opinion. However, BMI has had more passengers use that airport than PIA has for a few years in a row now with less than half the population of the PIA MSA. I'll admit I'm a little biased towards BMI, however, the facts speak for themselves. I've worked at both PIA and BMI, and with the population of the Peoria MSA it's sad they haven't beat out BMI for a while. It just goes to show how much competition there is between the airports in Central Illinois (not to mention competition from airport like MLI and even MDW, ORD, and STL). Will the numbers change for 2012 and will PIA come out on top? Possibly. But if one were to pick an airport between PIA, BMI, SPI, and CMI to be the primary commercial airport I think it's safe to say BMI has led the way for a little while now. My big question is (and has been for a while), if Peoria has such a much larger MSA population how is BMI able to keep up/beat them when it comes to enplanements/passengers using the airport?

Numbers:

Mclean County/BMI MSA = 170,000
PIA MSA = 373,000

2010 Enplanements at BMI: 274,677
2010 Enplanements at PIA: 249,595

2011 Enplanements at BMI: 284,852
2011 Enplanements at PIA: 249,898


OPS 5

NOTE: MSA statistics from wikipedia.com and enplanement statistics from FAA.gov
"You can do anything once."
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 1680
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:46 am

Mattya9:

Answer to all your questions is Air Tran. With no FL. , PIA will probably beat out BMI by more than 25,000 enplanements in 2012 and 50,000 in 2013. G4 and F9 don't begin to replace what BMI has lost.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1262
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:09 am

Quoting mattya9 (Reply 20):
Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 15):

For you to say PIA has become the primary commercial airport in Central Illinois is, obviously, your own opinion. However, BMI has had more passengers use that airport than PIA has for a few years in a row now with less than half the population of the PIA MSA. I'll admit I'm a little biased towards BMI, however, the facts speak for themselves. I've worked at both PIA and BMI, and with the population of the Peoria MSA it's sad they haven't beat out BMI for a while. It just goes to show how much competition there is between the airports in Central Illinois (not to mention competition from airport like MLI and even MDW, ORD, and STL). Will the numbers change for 2012 and will PIA come out on top? Possibly. But if one were to pick an airport between PIA, BMI, SPI, and CMI to be the primary commercial airport I think it's safe to say BMI has led the way for a little while now. My big question is (and has been for a while), if Peoria has such a much larger MSA population how is BMI able to keep up/beat them when it comes to enplanements/passengers using the airport?

Numbers:

Mclean County/BMI MSA = 170,000
PIA MSA = 373,000

2010 Enplanements at BMI: 274,677
2010 Enplanements at PIA: 249,595

2011 Enplanements at BMI: 284,852
2011 Enplanements at PIA: 249,898


OPS 5

NOTE: MSA statistics from wikipedia.com and enplanement statistics from FAA.gov


How much of that has been because of Air Tran and Delta fighting over ATL? Now that FL is gone and DL has cut back I bet those BMI #'s plummet in 2012.
 
FlyPeoria
Posts: 428
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:30 am

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting mattya9 (Reply 20):
For you to say PIA has become the primary commercial airport in Central Illinois is, obviously, your own opinion.

I didn't say that. I said

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 15):
BMI is more centrally-located but they've failed to become the region's primary commercial airport, mainly because of PIA's much larger population base.

In the late 1990s and early 2000s when BMI was the fastest-growing or one of the fastest-growing airports in the country, officials boasted that they'd someday become the region's primary airport and that others (CMI, PIA, SPI, etc.) would maintain "some service." Then PIA adopted free parking, convinced airlines to slash fares and attracted 3x daily ATL flights on DL. BMI beat PIA's numbers 1999-2001 but PIA came out on top again in 2002. Thanks to G4, it did this as well in 2005 and 2008. PIA posted a record for July 2012 - 54,073 passengers, so it may beat BMI this year.

Point is, the gap between PIA and BMI has usually been less than 50-60K passengers, and at least once only a few thousand. In recent years, both airports could boast around 500K or more. While BMI can boast more pax for most years since 1999, it has not been able to "dispatch" PIA and dominate. BMI's central location and PIA's size keep both airports viable while CMI and SPI have generally sputtered.
 
stlgph
Posts: 9059
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:00 pm

For DC/LGA service - the population base is there, but the need is not. Central Illinois businesses aren't operationally focused or needing to be focused with a reliance upon New York or Washington D.C.

What's needed for air traffic is what they have now - convenient, reliable hops to larger cities where they can fan out to flights all over the United States, Europe, Asia, Canada, etc. etc.

In traveling back to central Illinois, I've often found full flights, but still pretty reasonable fares. I wouldn't be surprised to see Delta toss in some E-170's if they feel the service is warranted.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
mli717fan
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:30 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:02 pm

I'll probably make a few enemies out of this... but... I think pumping millions of dollars into all of the central Illinois airports is just an enormous waste of money!

SPI is guaranteeing AA revenue on their SPI-DFW flights (don't know if they've used it)
DEC has subsidized service to ORD and STL. Apparently their STL flights are subsidized to the tune of $610/passenger*
BMI is offering money to F9 for their MCO/DEN services (at least some of that is private, I know)
PIA just opened a new terminal (which was desperately needed, I know, I saw the old one... I don't think that was a waste of money, but it was still expensive)

Now we've got CMI and BMI getting subsidies to start new service that will probably not even get close to being fully used.

*http://campbell.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2516

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 23):
In the late 1990s and early 2000s when BMI was the fastest-growing or one of the fastest-growing airports in the country, officials boasted that they'd someday become the region's primary airport and that others (CMI, PIA, SPI, etc.) would maintain "some service." Then PIA adopted free parking, convinced airlines to slash fares and attracted 3x daily ATL flights on DL. BMI beat PIA's numbers 1999-2001 but PIA came out on top again in 2002. Thanks to G4, it did this as well in 2005 and 2008. PIA posted a record for July 2012 - 54,073 passengers, so it may beat BMI this year.

I'd put my money on PIA. 40% of the seats to BMI walked out the door when FL flew the coop. DL slashed 2x flights to ATL (leaving just 3x ATL and minimal (1-2x) MSP/DTW service). They've added back roughly the equivalent of 1/3rd of the AirTran service, but this year is still going to sting. Bad.

I'm not advocating anything here, but it if you took two of the central Illinois airports out of the picture, the remaining 3 would be in much better shape.
 
mattya9
Topic Author
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:36 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 23):

Agreed and I stand corrected on my previous statement. But, again, I wonder how PIA is not able to get more passengers to fly out of their airport with such a large MSA population? Is it because of MLI and BMI?

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 21):

How are F9 and G4 doing at BMI? Anyone have any numbers? My parents flew out on F9 this past Sunday from BMI and they said there were only a couple empty seats.

OPS 5
"You can do anything once."
 
stlgph
Posts: 9059
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:36 pm

Another challege to the central Illinois airport region remains four airports -- Chicago O'Hare, Chicago Midway, Indianapolis, and St. Louis.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
lhcvg
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 2:53 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:40 pm

This is beginning to sound like a classic case where the O&D is just a bit too diluted among the three mentioned IL airports to make it work.
 
FlyPeoria
Posts: 428
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:30 am

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting mattya9 (Reply 26):
But, again, I wonder how PIA is not able to get more passengers to fly out of their airport with such a large MSA population? Is it because of MLI and BMI?

Simple: FL vs. DL on the BMI-ATL route (and DL not operating PIA-ATL for a few years).

PIA took 30 years to break its 1978 record (550,000) in 2008 (565,000). The former figure was due to limited service at BMI and Ozark's virtual "mini-hub" at PIA (some 27-28 departures daily, all but five on DC-9's!). Then OZ strikes in 1979 and 1980, emphasis on hub-and-spoke after 1981, Britt Airways' buildup at BMI and leakage to ORD or STL kept PIA from posting numbers even close to within 100K of the 1978 figure for all but a few years over the next decade (1986 and 1992 come to mind). Without G4, PIA wouldn't have reached 520K in 2005.

MLI has some effect on PIA. G4 cannibalized its PIA-LAS route when it began MLI-LAS flights (late 2010?).

One other thing going for PIA is Caterpillar, which generates not only a large volume of biz travelers, but so many are international biz travelers. I doubt BMI's State Farm Insurance can boast many international travelers. Also, Caterpillar sales have grown from $23B to $61B between 2003 and 2011.
 
mattya9
Topic Author
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:36 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:59 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 28):

Hypothetically speaking, if BMI were awarded service it would most likely be the better of the two because (if anything) it can draw from the 3 airports surrounding it; SPI, PIA and CMI. There's just around 1 million people within a 60 mile radius of BMI. However, the big and obvious question is, how many of those people need/want direct access out east?

OPS 5
"You can do anything once."
 
lhcvg
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 2:53 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:09 pm

Quoting mattya9 (Reply 30):
Hypothetically speaking, if BMI were awarded service it would most likely be the better of the two because (if anything) it can draw from the 3 airports surrounding it; SPI, PIA and CMI. There's just around 1 million people within a 60 mile radius of BMI. However, the big and obvious question is, how many of those people need/want direct access out east?

I don't disagree about BMI position; I was merely noting that on the O&D merits, I think it's starting to shape up into a situation where it's of dubious viability because of the dispersed O&D and the question over how many will actually drive to BMI. Not saying they won't, just raising it as an issue.
 
mli717fan
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:30 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 29):
MLI has some effect on PIA. G4 cannibalized its PIA-LAS route when it began MLI-LAS flights (late 2010?).

I think PIA and MLI split a lot of traffic from Central-Western Illinois. The drives to those airports from Macomb, Galesburg, Monmouth, Quincy, and Burlington (the latter two have EAS airports) is roughly the same. MLI also bled some passengers looking to fly G4 before they came to town. PIA probably didn't bleed many passengers to MLI for FL flights because they could get the same service in a closer location at BMI.

I'm waiting to see if they do another round of PGD expansion for this winter. PIA seems to be doing well on those flights, with some one-way departures already in the $250-300 range for this winter.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 27):
Another challege to the central Illinois airport region remains four airports -- Chicago O'Hare, Chicago Midway, Indianapolis, and St. Louis.

This is completely true. Lots of people will spend $50 in gas, $15 in tolls, and $60 on a park & fly hotel room to drive to Chicago and grab a flight that's $50 cheaper.


...Back on topic. I am curious who will start these flights to CMI/BMI if it happens. With UA not present at either of those airports, I have my doubts it would be them. AA is hubbed at JFK and present at both CMI/BMI, but they don't have a lot of eagle flights at JFK. I could see DL grabbing a route at BMI, but it may come at the expense of another DTW or ATL departure.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4460
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting mattya9 (Reply 4):
I know ORD, ATL, and DTW already have service to one or both BMI and CMI but would PHL or CLT might be a better (and closer) option for people wanting to get to the smaller cities in the northeast? Just my 2 cents.

ORD and DFW are the only two cities that serve both BMI and CMI.

What about IAD? Maybe a tie with the UA hub could work from BMI.
It is what it is...
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 19):

Does CMI even have the ability to support a route to the likes of DC or NYC?

I'm of the opinion that they don't. Even if they do I think it would work better to use one of the cities that is home to a large company, and if an airline chooses BMI many pax will drive anyway.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 24):
I've often found full flights, but still pretty reasonable fares.

I think the region gets some protection geographically. If fares creep too high passengers will just drive to Chicago or St. Louis. People will pay a premium to fly closer to home and for free parking, but not a huge premium.

Quoting MLI717fan (Reply 25):
I'll probably make a few enemies out of this... but... I think pumping millions of dollars into all of the central Illinois airports is just an enormous waste of money!

I tend to agree. There isn't a huge need and I think the subsidy money could be better used elsewhere. Any service which has its existence dependent of a subsidy isn't viable.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
mli717fan
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:30 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
I'm of the opinion that they don't. Even if they do I think it would work better to use one of the cities that is home to a large company, and if an airline chooses BMI many pax will drive anyway.

Back when the economy was good, SPI couldn't support their DC service. There were rumors around that MLI was going to get DC service on UA too, but it never happened. I think the best thing that could happen would be if CMI/BMI picked up US service to DCA and/or PHL/CLT for a few reasons...

#1. It would provide central Illinois with a new airline option in a market that is mostly dominated by AA (with slightly weaker UA and DL). I know US is largely considered a legacy carrier, but the increased competition would still help spur additional traffic.

#2. US's star alliance membership would allow them to potentially tap in to some of UA's frequent fliers.

#3. UA wouldn't be fragmenting their SPI and PIA stations by adding an oddball IAD outlier route to a station they don't currently serve.
 
IADLHR
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:25 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:47 pm

It has been a few years since my project in Illinolis finished. I havent been back there since before the new PIA airport was even talked about, let alone completed. 90% of the time I flew there from either NYC or DCA. How I wish there had been nonstop flights from there to PIA or BMI. How I wish!!!

Having said that both CMI and BMI have large universities that generate large amounts of travel to DC and large amounts of international travel.For that matter, PIA is home to Bradley University and CAT. I would think they would generate pax traffic for DC/NYC and international from PIA.

When I would pick up a rental car in PIA a couple of rental car agents commented that a lot of people wished they had nonstop service from PIA to DCA. I have to say I was surprised at that comment. Later, I heard the same comment from someone who worked at the newstand at PIA. I put that out there as possible food for thought.

I do know that back in the 60s and 70s there were a couple of nonstops on Ozark per day from PIA to LGA and from PIA-IAD and later PIA-BWI.

I think there were also some non stop flights on Ozark from CMI-IAD. If that was back in the 60s and 70s, have things changed that much that there isnt a demand for at least one RJ either BMI-NYC or IAD or PIA-NYC or IAD?

I find that just about impossible to believe. It just seems obvious that if BMI, CMI and PIA were all one airport that it would have happened long ago. However, the dstances are too great from PIA and CMI to ever be one airport and it is too late now for BMI and PIA to be one airport.
 
stlgph
Posts: 9059
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 36):
Having said that both CMI and BMI have large universities that generate large amounts of travel to DC and large amounts of international travel.For that matter, PIA is home to Bradley University and CAT. I would think they would generate pax traffic for DC/NYC and international from PIA.

Caterpillar isn't looking to head east though - if anything, their execs are flying west. They have 11 factories in China and they are very long term China and Asia as machine sales there are up by as much as 28% from the previous year. Their other priority markets right now are Canada, Brazil, and United Arab Emirates.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 36):
Having said that both CMI and BMI have large universities that generate large amounts of travel to DC and large amounts of international travel.

Again, the need is to go west. The largest portion of international students come from China and Korea. India is usually third and Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia are also on the list. Other big countries - Turkey, United Kingdom, and Iran.

[Edited 2012-08-17 08:09:07]
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 36):
Having said that both CMI and BMI have large universities that generate large amounts of travel to DC and large amounts of international travel.

Universities really don't produce that much traffic. What traffic they do produce is highly seasonal and not especially high yielding.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 37):
Caterpillar isn't looking to head east though - if anything, their execs are flying west.

Of course Chicago could take care of all of that.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
mattya9
Topic Author
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:36 pm

RE: BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?

Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:37 pm

Quoting MLI717fan (Reply 35):

Would BMI or CMI be able to use that grant money to attract service to an airport other than one in the DC/NYC area? Or does it have to be one of those?

OPS 5
"You can do anything once."