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neutrino
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H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:14 pm

This doesn't appear to have hit Anet yet.
http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...el-a380-order-delay-six-777fs-0816

And does this little snippet in the article mean that their 748i "order" will also be up in the smoke?
'...the spokesperson told AFP that HX would eventually have an “all Airbus” fleet.'
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Cerecl
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:24 pm

Quoting neutrino (Thread starter):

I feel that HX has bitten off more than they could chew with their A380 and rumoured 747-8i order. They need to learn how to walk first before wanting to jump. I think we must not have high hopes of 787s finding their way into HX fleet any time soon.
 
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Stitch
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 1):
I feel that HX has bitten off more than they could chew with their A380 and rumoured 747-8i order.

It appears not so much that they bit off more than they can chew, but that their stomach has undergone regulatory lap band surgery.

The Hong Kong Civil Aviation Department has limited HX's air operator’s certificate to only 20 aircraft until they can demonstrate they have the “necessary equipment, organisation, staffing, maintenance and other arrangements to secure the safe operation of a larger aircraft fleet”. This has forced HX to retire 5 older 737-800s. (Aspire Aviation and http://atwonline.com/international-a...rlines-fleet-expansion-plans-0807)

So until the HKCAD expands HX's AOC, they're not going to be in a position to take any of the Airbus and Boeing equipment they have on firm order nor convert any of their Boeing MoUs into firm orders.

[Edited 2012-08-16 06:37:23]
 
blueflyer
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:57 pm

The warning from the HKCAD prompted a thorough strategic review. Key results are:
-All-Airbus fleet to save on maintenance cost;
-Suspend, with a view to cancel, plans to list the carrier on the Hong Kong stock exchange;
-Take a long, hard look at the A380 order, final decision yet to come.

If the listing doesn't go ahead, HNA, the parent company, will consider merging Hong Kong Airlines and Hainan together.

Source: Financial Times
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/f0e23...5b-00144feab49a.html#axzz23iPzeQcv
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EPA001
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
So until the HKCAD expands HX's AOC, they're not going to be in a position to take any of the Airbus and Boeing equipment they have on firm order nor convert any of their Boeing MoUs into firm orders.

It looks that way. hope the issues are sorted out quickly so the new A380's and B748i's can be added to their fleet.

Too bad though that the topic title addresses the A380 only. Again we see that with the A380 you make headlines, with other names you are likely to make much less waves when posting a news message.  

[Edited 2012-08-16 07:03:26]
 
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Stitch
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:07 pm

A merger of Hainan and Hong Kong would have some synergies:

It would give Hainan a cargo arm with the best medium (A330-200F) and large (777F) freighters available;
HX operates the same models that HU do, so the current and future fleets would mesh;
HU will eventually need an A340-600 replacement, so the 747-8 could serve that role with the A380 slotting in above
 
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Stitch
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 4):
Too bad though that the topic title addresses the A380 only.

To be fair, the A380 is the only order that appears at risk for cancellation since the 787 and 747-8 are MoUs. They're not canceling their 777F order, just deferring it. And they will be taking A320s and A330s scheduled for delivery. And the OP did ask if the 747-8 MoU was now dead.

And a.net allows only so many words for a thread title.
 
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EPA001
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:19 pm

^^ I know, but still it gives the impression that only the A380 order is effected. And there is not really any consideration about cancelling the A380 order. Other circumstances are at present preventing Hong Kong Airlines taking delivery of their ordered A380's.
 
blueflyer
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:31 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
They're not canceling their 777F order, just deferring it.

From the FT... "Mr Yang said a final decision had not yet been made (re A380) and added that the carrier intended to replace existing Boeing passenger and freight aircraft with Airbus models in order to have an “all-Airbus” fleet to reduce maintenance costs."

Technically, it doesn't say the 777F and 748 are dead, but what else would they do? Be all-Airbus until the next Boeing delivery?
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Stitch
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 8):
Technically, it doesn't say the 777F and 748 are dead, but what else would they do? Be all-Airbus until the next Boeing delivery?

They may very well eventually cancel their 777F order, but at the moment, it is being deferred from 2013+2014 to "after 2015".
 
JerseyFlyer
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:10 pm

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 1):
I think we must not have high hopes of 787s finding their way into HX fleet any time soon.

Agree. Much more likely to get A330 / 350 as part of negotiations to cancel A380s.

Current B738s also appear to be being edged out in favour of A320s.
 
KDAYflyer
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:15 pm

After these statements I dont think the Boeing MOU's will ever turn into actual orders.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
If the listing doesn't go ahead, HNA, the parent company, will consider merging Hong Kong Airlines and Hainan together.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):

A merger of Hainan and Hong Kong would have some synergies:
It would give Hainan a cargo arm with the best medium (A330-200F) and large (777F) freighters available;
HX operates the same models that HU do, so the current and future fleets would mesh;
HU will eventually need an A340-600 replacement, so the 747-8 could serve that role with the A380 slotting in above

This will also invalidate their AOC. A HK AOC requires the shareholders to have a principal place of business in HK. That's why HNA owns only 45% of HKA and HKE.

Same reason Jetstar HK will unlike get off the ground without a local majority shareholder.
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cargolex
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
They're not canceling their 777F order,
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 8):

Technically, it doesn't say the 777F and 748 are dead,
Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 11):
After these statements I dont think the Boeing MOU's will ever turn into actual orders.

The original article is bad reporting. For one thing, HX is not limited on how many freighters it can operate, only how many passenger planes.

Here's another serious miscue in the article:

Quote:
and replace five 787-800s and two 737-300Fs with A330s and A320s this year.

For the 787s, that would be the most rapid replacement in history, since none have been delivered. For the 737Fs, that would be literally impossible, as a converted 737 freighter has no A320 equivalent.
 
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Stitch
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting cargolex (Reply 13):
For the 787s, that would be the most rapid replacement in history, since none have been delivered. For the 737Fs, that would be literally impossible, as a converted 737 freighter has no A320 equivalent.

HK's 787's are MoUs, so there is nothing to replace.  

They are retiring five 737-800s, so I expect that was a typo.  
 
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Polot
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:07 pm

Quoting cargolex (Reply 13):
For the 787s, that would be the most rapid replacement in history, since none have been delivered. For the 737Fs, that would be literally impossible, as a converted 737 freighter has no A320 equivalent.

Well with the 787 they obviously mean they are looking at replacing the 787 order (or rather MoU) with an order for additional A330s instead.
 
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Stitch
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 12):
This will also invalidate their AOC.

And that affects them how? They can't declare HKG as their home airport? Would they be required to give up or re-bid for gate and/or runway slots?
 
DeltaB717
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:18 am

Does the HKCAD / AOC issue have anything to do with cancelling the LGW service, or was that a purely commercial decision?
 
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Stitch
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:19 am

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 17):
Does the HKCAD / AOC issue have anything to do with cancelling the LGW service, or was that a purely commercial decision?

Could be a bit of both. They were losing millions on the route, so by retiring it, they could free that aircraft for another mission.
 
flightsimer
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:37 am

Wasn't HK supposed to operate the A380s and Hainan operate the 747-8Is? If so, I don't see why the -8I order would be in any trouble as this seems to be specific to HK and not the entire holding company.
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:04 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):

Could be a bit of both. They were losing millions on the route, so by retiring it, they could free that aircraft for another mission.

OK, fair enough. But the aircraft (2 or 3 I believe) are configured in an all J layout (with two service levels). LGW never made any sense and everyone knew it would be short lived. But they will now have to stump up quite a fair amount of cash to reconfigure these almost brand new A330-200s into a configuration that makes sense. I can't believe they will make money on these birds in their existing config on HKG-PVG.
 
peterinlisbon
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:34 am

Maybe they should just cancel all of their other orders and get 20 A380s!
 
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:49 am

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 1):
I feel that HX has bitten off more than they could chew with their A380 and rumoured 747-8i order. They need to learn how to walk first before wanting to jump.

That was my thought too.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
The Hong Kong Civil Aviation Department has limited HX's air operator’s certificate to only 20 aircraft

So they need bigger aircraft.  
Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 21):
Maybe they should just cancel all of their other orders and get 20 A380s!

Go big or go home!   

 

Ok, I'm kidding. They need to resolve their organizational structure before going back to a growth path.


Lightsaber
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cchan
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:02 am

IMHO the A380 order should be cancelled regardless. HX does not need that capacity, they need higher frequency instead. Checking the HKG airport departure screen, HX has quite a number of cancellations everyday.
 
StanleyJ
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:13 am

I thought the A380 order was actually for HU, and Hainan was just using HX for a tax dodge?  
 
celestar
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:56 am

Sight track a bit.
Just saw the news. A HK airline A330 experienced mechanical failure while landing at the North runway, blocking the runway for 2 hours of shut down. That runway has re-opened. Not sure if poor weather (typhoon) is related but it reminds me of the CI A330 loss of steering control couple of days ago, that plane also landed in a heavy down pour.
Luck is not on the HK airline side for sure.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:34 am

Quoting StanleyJ (Reply 24):
I thought the A380 order was actually for HU, and Hainan was just using HX for a tax dodge?

I remembered it was something like that too - maybe to get around the "CAASSC" rules where they place all orders centrally and then airlines need to make a case for having some planes.
 
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zeke
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:32 am

Quoting celestar (Reply 25):

Some of the guys in Hkg were saying they had a full evacuation on the runway.

China Airkines did not have a "loss of steering control", someone made that up.
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CX Flyboy
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:12 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 27):
Quoting celestar (Reply 25):

Some of the guys in Hkg were saying they had a full evacuation on the runway.

China Airkines did not have a "loss of steering control", someone made that up.

I saw this one. There was a big cloud of white smoke at relatively low speed just prior to them turning for the first high-speed exit for 07L. Pax exited via airstairs onto buses some time later.
 
KaiTak747
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:10 am

It will be a shame not seeing an A380 in Hong Kong Airlines livery  
Fingers crossed for the 747-8!
 
jfk777
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:35 am

Hong Kong Airlines ordering the A380 and the 748 I at last years Paris Air Show reminds me of Kingfisher ordering all those planes they ordered 4 years ago. HK airline needs to realize there is only room for one Hong Kong long haul airline, Cathay owns that franchise.
 
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 7):
I know, but still it gives the impression that only the A380 order is effected. And there is not really any consideration about cancelling the A380 order.

The A380 gets the attention because it's hard to find someone to back fill the order.

Both the title of the article and the first sentence say that A380 cancellation is being considered, why do you feel otherwise?
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N14AZ
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:35 pm

Didn't H K Airlines use some of the production slots which became available because QF deferred the delivery of their remaining A 380? I remember that LH took over two production slots with their recent follow-up order for two airframes but I am not so sure about H K.
 
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Stitch
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 32):
Didn't H K Airlines use some of the production slots which became available because QF deferred the delivery of their remaining A 380?

There was talk of that - HK Airlines Eyes QF A380 Slots (by solnabo Nov 4 2011 in Civil Aviation)
 
N14AZ
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
There was talk of that - HK Airlines Eyes QF A380 Slots (by solnabo Nov 4 2011 in Civil Aviation)

Aah, thank's very much for the information. So if really happens what some people are worried about here (and what others are hoping for   ) these ex QF slots would become available again.
 
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neutrino
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RE: H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order

Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:51 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
Both the title of the article and the first sentence say that A380 cancellation is being considered, why do you feel otherwise?

Well, some people will feel testy over something. Its a fact of life.
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