wepaman
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2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:31 pm

Frontier Announces Two New Nonstop Destinations from Orlando Beginning Nov. 20

http://media.frontierairlines.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=5383

F9 is now Beefing up Orlando...

That is great news...
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Cubsrule
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:40 pm

It is probably not a coincidence that both places are markets where G4's (present) aircraft could have some runway performance issues. COU has a ~6,500 foot runway and is a 950 mile flight; SHD is only 6,000 feet and is somewhat high as well.
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ADent
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:41 pm

COU -> Columbia, Missouri
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 2):
COU -> Columbia, Missouri

Not being familiar with the COU airport IATA code. When I saw Columbia I initially thought Columbia, Maryland given F9 recent build-up in the mid Atlantic region. Columbia, Maryland is a suburb of Baltimore and a stones throw from BWI and thought that's interesting. I don't think Columbia, Maryland has an airport.
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CIDFlyer
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:43 pm

very interesting....I wonder if COU could see DEN service at some point as well. One thing is for sure F9 is sure interesting these days and surprising us!
 
wepaman
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:48 pm

I personally will love IAH - MCO even MDW - MCO...
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:06 pm

WWAD what would allegiant do
 
bohica
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:15 pm

Is Frontier's service to SHD going to be subsidized? Shenandoah Valley has a small population spread out over a large area. The most populated communities are at the north end of the valley and they are closer to IAD. The only service currently in SHD is Silver/UAX 3X/day with Saab 340's to IAD. I believe that is subsidized. ACA discontinued SHD when they retired the J32 because they knew even the J41 was too much airplane for SHD. I just can't see an A319 being filled 3X/week to go anywhere from SHD.
 
quickmover
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 4):
very interesting....I wonder if COU could see DEN service at some point as well. One thing is for sure F9 is sure interesting these days and surprising us!

COU has great possibilities. A fast growing city on it's own and lots of people who don't want to drive to either MCI or STL in the surrounding area. The terminal could use a little expansion.

The only COU flights right now are on DL 2x to ATL and 1x to MEM. All three of those flights offer an easy connection on to MCO. I agree that COU-DEN would make more sense as COU does not have any westbound flights.

A United Q400 flight to DEN wouldn't surprise me.

[Edited 2012-08-16 13:17:19]

[Edited 2012-08-16 13:17:43]
 
Cubsrule
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting quickmover (Reply 8):
COU has great possibilities. A fast growing city on it's own and lots of people who don't want to drive to either MCI or STL in the surrounding area.

COU leaks a lot to MCI/STL because it's not a bad drive to either. It's a particularly easy drive to STL, which is right on I-70. But I think NW and later DL's results in COU surprised even NW and DL. It wasn't long after they started with SF3s that they went to jets (this was long before the SF3 retirement).
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quickmover
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:27 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
COU leaks a lot to MCI/STL because it's not a bad drive to either. It's a particularly easy drive to STL, which is right on I-70. But I think NW and later DL's results in COU surprised even NW and DL. It wasn't long after they started with SF3s that they went to jets (this was long before the SF3 retirement).

The drive to STL is easy, but the parking and short security lines are no comparison. If the fares were similar, I think they could do really well here. MU is now in the SEC as well. Probably alot of university traffic.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting quickmover (Reply 10):
The drive to STL is easy, but the parking and short security lines are no comparison.

No comparison, indeed. Parking at STL ranges from expensive OR inconvenient to expensive AND inconvenient (from bad to worse, if you like). I think DL has (finally) gotten folks from Columbia and Jefferson City flying locally with reliable service that is in stark contrast to many years of 19 seaters on ZK and 3C. Hopefully F9 can build on the solid foundation DL has built.

[Edited 2012-08-16 13:30:48]
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mli717fan
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:52 pm

My sister went to MU so I've visited COU a few times (not the airport, but the city). It seemed a little bit out of left field for F9 to fly there, but it actually does make a lot of sense. There are almost 200k people in the COU metro area and it's growing rapidly, they can probably support a couple flights a week to MCO. I'm kind of surprised F9 went for this one, and not G4.
 
mli717fan
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:54 pm

Also, they made a nice little shot at G4 in the press release (read MCO is better located than SFB)...

Quote:
“With the addition of these two new destinations from Orlando, Frontier is now serving a record 13 nonstop destinations from convenient Orlando International Airport, which is closer to everyone’s favorite Orlando-area destinations” said Daniel Shurz, Frontier’s senior vice president, commercial.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:00 pm

Lets hope that MCO is not another LAX type screw up, like what Potter tried to do.....
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mariner
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
Lets hope that MCO is not another LAX type screw up, like what Potter tried to do.....

So far, Frontier has completely avoided the several mistakes that were made at LAX.

And if forward bookings are anything to go by, especially TTN-MCO, they will continue to avoid those mistakes.

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LV
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:19 pm

I know Columbia has grown a lot since since I graduated from the best university on the face of the earth in 2003 (oh man, has it really been that long?) but I am still questioning if CoMo and Jeff City has enough demand to support twice weekly service to MCO. I mean anyone remember the reincarnation of Ozark that was based at COU and flew to MDW and DFW? I think those two have more demand than MCO and it flopped quickly.

It's funny, I mentioned to a non-av geek friend several months ago that I believe F9 might be able to do COU-DEN on the 190's and squeeze out a profit since it was looking for places to stash those. I would love it if that came true as I could go back for football games.... althought I probably wouldn't be able to afford that flight on football weekends.

I did text an old friend from MU when I read this and he sent me back a one word response: SEC!

Quoting MLI717fan (Reply 12):
My sister went to MU so I've visited COU

Your sister is clearly a very intelligent person.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:21 pm

I posted in the F9 thread SHD boarded just over 12K passengers in calender year 2011 according to the FAA. SHD ranks # 380 of the 405 airports in passenger boardings the FAA tracks.

As this appears to be the first large jet service to both of these airports I'd imagine the airport managers fell over in their chairs. This is truly one of those "be careful what you ask for you might just get it" scenarios. Time will tell what the populous thinks. These two city choices are outside the box and have undoubtedly generated some wow factor. Awe and gawk! may actually be better words. I can see the pilot expressions when the left seat at MCO asks the right seat where are we flying too today!

I'm curious if there is a take-off and landing requirement into these size of airports (say 5% of all flying) to meet or be branded a ULCC in the eyes of the FAA.
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mariner
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting LV (Reply 16):
It's funny, I mentioned to a non-av geek friend several months ago that I believe F9 might be able to do COU-DEN on the 190's and squeeze out a profit since it was looking for places to stash those.

The officials at COU are surely Denver Dreaming:

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/st...ghts-between-columbia-and-orlando/

"McDavid said he hopes Columbia's relationship with Frontier will evolve. He brought up the possibility of adding flights to Denver International Airport, which is Frontier's primary hub and a popular travel destination for mid-Missourians.

"I'm hoping we have more announcements like this in the near future," McDavid said."


I could see it - 4 x weekly DEN-COU - but they probably need to do something about the terminal first:

"Although McDavid was upbeat about the additional flights, he also sounded a warning, saying that the Columbia airport's terminal lacks the waiting area capacity to handle the extra passengers.

"This is a crisis," he said. "It is very important to move very quick to build a new terminal.

The mayor said he would ask City Manager Mike Matthes to come up with a plan for using City Council contingency funds to finance a short-term fix for the lack of waiting room at the terminal.

"We don't want to be known as the SEC school that has black-and-gold double-wides welcoming you to Columbia," McDavid said. He also noted that the terminal building does not comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act.

"It was a great terminal in 1969. But it's not 1969," McDavid said."


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JetBlueAUS
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:55 am

Frontier seems to be growing a lot but I've heard plans of decreasing their fleet. Is the Frontier fleet very highly utilized? Any word on taking used A319s/A320s?
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LV
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:31 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 19):
Frontier seems to be growing a lot but I've heard plans of decreasing their fleet. Is the Frontier fleet very highly utilized? Any word on taking used A319s/A320s?

I was thinking the same thing... where is F9 getting all of these planes from for all the new routes? I realize F9 is only flying the new routes two or three times a week but still....
 
quickmover
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:30 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 17):
As this appears to be the first large jet service to both of these airports I'd imagine the airport managers fell over in their chairs

Didn't the original Ozark fly dc-9s to COU back in the 70s and 80s? I wonder how they handled the passengers back then.
 
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:54 am

Quoting quickmover (Reply 21):


Didn't the original Ozark fly dc-9s to COU back in the 70s and 80s? I wonder how they handled the passengers back then.

Yes they did -10's/30's. OZ turned COU over to Ozark Midwest with the OZ/Air Midwest agreement. OZ operated mostly FH-227B's into COU until they sold that fleet and they made do with the DC-9's until the feeder arrangement came along. They may even dropped COU for a bit before that but my memory on that particular is fuzzy. I do remember some of the smaller stations OZ tried to keep with DC-9's (Mason City, Ft. Dodge, and Burlington IA come to mind) but the DC-9 was just too much plane for those markets even with combined ops, tag-ons etc....oh well, they tried.
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quickmover
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:34 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 22):
Yes they did -10's/30's. OZ turned COU over to Ozark Midwest with the OZ/Air Midwest agreement. OZ operated mostly FH-227B's into COU until they sold that fleet and they made do with the DC-9's until the feeder arrangement came along. They may even dropped COU for a bit before that but my memory on that particular is fuzzy. I do remember some of the smaller stations OZ tried to keep with DC-9's (Mason City, Ft. Dodge, and Burlington IA come to mind) but the DC-9 was just too much plane for those markets even with combined ops, tag-ons etc....oh well, they tried.

Thanks for the info. Do you remember the routing from COU? I'm assuming STL was surely a link in the chain, but maybe on to SGF or MCI?
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:02 am

Quoting quickmover (Reply 23):


Thanks for the info. Do you remember the routing from COU? I'm assuming STL was surely a link in the chain, but maybe on to SGF or MCI?

Pre-deregulation the routing was on the FH-227B STL-COU-MCI, and there was the occasional tag down to SGF and JLN, once the DC-9's hit the route it was mostly STL with SGF and JLN tagged again from time to time, not sure if the 9's ever flew to MCI.
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stlgph
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:43 am

Quoting LV (Reply 20):
I was thinking the same thing... where is F9 getting all of these planes from for all the new routes? I realize F9 is only flying the new routes two or three times a week but still....

They've had a number of frequency reductions from Denver across the board to several cities.
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GentFromAlaska
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:28 pm

Quoting LV (Reply 20):
where is F9 getting all of these planes from for all the new routes?

With an average turn being less than an hour I'd would think the same airframe could fly three or four trips a day from MCO to different cities. I would think two A319 could accomplish most of the mid Atlantic flying in any given day in that the cities alternate daily. It would be a neat puzzle to fit it all together. using the arrival departure schedule for each of the cities. TTN-MCO for example by my estimation is a 2.5 -3 hour flight.
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GentFromAlaska
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:09 pm

Quoting quickmover (Reply 21):
Didn't the original Ozark fly dc-9s to COU back in the 70s and 80s?
Quoting quickmover (Reply 21):
Yes they did -10's/30's. OZ turned COU over to Ozark Midwest with the OZ/Air Midwest agreement

I stand corrected. My thought process was more recent. Still I should have thought about the great (OZ) in that Ozark also served CKV where I spent a lot of my youth until the early 80's
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:55 pm

Courtesy http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/...ke-announcement-regarding-airport/

It looks like SHD could use some FAA SCASD Grant help.

"Public Works Director John Glascock said" "the terminal will need to be expanded if it is to be able to handle passenger loads from additional flights" " "The city recently added a double-wide trailer to the terminal to increase available space". I suspect those are office trailers
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LV
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:38 pm

I just have to say out of the articles written about F9 coming to COU... this has to be my favorite....

"We don't want to be known as the SEC school that has black-and-gold double wides welcoming you to Columbia,"

Classic...... you probably have had to spend some time in Mid Missouri to get why that is so funny but I was laughing so hard reading that line.
 
mli717fan
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:43 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 28):

"Public Works Director John Glascock said" "the terminal will need to be expanded if it is to be able to handle passenger loads from additional flights" " "The city recently added a double-wide trailer to the terminal to increase available space". I suspect those are office trailers

Maybe the completely broke state of Illinois can dismantle some parts of BLV and sell it to COU....   
 
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727tiger
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:39 pm

This excellent news for COU. Back in the early- to mid-80s, as an undergrad, I flew out of COU several times on the original Ozark (before the TWA merger) on DC-9s. Usually, the route would fly SGF-COU-STL, and I'd hop on the COU-STL leg and return a week later on the STL-COU leg. Back then, several Midwest-based regional carriers served COU from Chicago and STL as well as Ozark. COU has been a rather empty place in recent decades, mostly with the leakage to STL and MCI. It's good to see DL and F9 slowly building some added service. Would be very nice to see Chicago service to either ORD or MDW or DEN service. Mid-Missouri has a growing population
 
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mariner
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting LV (Reply 29):
"We don't want to be known as the SEC school that has black-and-gold double wides welcoming you to Columbia,"

The double wide:




Always dance with the plain girls - they're so much more grateful?  

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wepaman
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:21 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 32):
Always dance with the plain girls - they're so much more grateful?

Love it,
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GentFromAlaska
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting LV (Reply 29):
you probably have had to spend some time in Mid Missouri to get why that is so funny

Lets just hope the airport doesn't use four wheelers as ground support equipment
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
spiritair97
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:07 pm

Given that G4 and NK don't currently serve Orlando-MYR, do you think we could see that ever being started?
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 35):
Given that G4 and NK don't currently serve Orlando-MYR,

Given F9 recent build-up of MCO and because G4 announced intention to leave BTV; I have a inkling BTV-MCO may be in the next round of F9 announcements. With that said I've noticed over the years F9 has avoided competing DEN and the Rockie Mountain region with another Winter destination in Winter. I think BTV location to Canada could be a consideration point.
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N202PA
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting bohica (Reply 7):

Is Frontier's service to SHD going to be subsidized? Shenandoah Valley has a small population spread out over a large area. The most populated communities are at the north end of the valley and they are closer to IAD. The only service currently in SHD is Silver/UAX 3X/day with Saab 340's to IAD. I believe that is subsidized. ACA discontinued SHD when they retired the J32 because they knew even the J41 was too much airplane for SHD. I just can't see an A319 being filled 3X/week to go anywhere from SHD.

Late to the party, but you're forgetting that Charlottesville is right over the mountain (about a 1 hour drive) and Harrisonburg is only about 25-30 minutes away. That is probably 250,000-350,000 people in the catchment area which is quite decent when you think of it.

Also, I should point out that airfares out of the area are particularly high, often $150-$300 more than comparable flights out of RIC and IAD. So unsurprisingly many people from our area drive 1-2 hours to those airports instead of going out of the more convenient CHO.

I'm just surprised that CHO didn't market aggressively toward Frontier or Alleigiant to get flights like this, given that they have the terminal space and Charlottesville could use some discount leisure flight options. Seems that SHD scooped 'em.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting N202PA (Reply 37):
Charlottesville is right over the mountain (about a 1 hour drive) and Harrisonburg is only about 25-30 minutes away.

A little further up I-81 you also have the greater Winchester, Virgina area which has a fairly significant populous. It can easily take 2-3 hours to drive the sixty miles to the D.C. airports. A family friend who lives in neighboring West Virgina; 20 miles West from Winchester actually drives to MDT to catch her flights.
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mariner
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:08 pm

Quoting N202PA (Reply 37):
I'm just surprised that CHO didn't market aggressively toward Frontier or Alleigiant to get flights like this, given that they have the terminal space and Charlottesville could use some discount leisure flight options. Seems that SHD scooped 'em.

Include me as very surprised. At the same, it's happened before - Frontier chose PHF instead of ORF, for example, (to the scorn of a.net) and that's done well.

Include a fair number of Charlottesville residents, too. Based on comments I've seen in the local news some of them are miffed that CHO didn't get the service. I guess the officials at CHO may be be on the phone to Allegiant.

But Frontier's choice surely means a lot to the folk at SHD:

SHD" target="_blank">http://www.newsleader.com/article/20...4/Nonstop-flights-Orlando-from-SHD

"Fighting back tears and his voice choking with emotion, Gerald Garber made an announcement Thursday morning that was seven years in the making.

Shenandoah Valley Regional Airport is adding a new airline in November that will offer three weekly nonstop flights to Orlando, directly connecting the Valley to Disney, and just as important, connecting Floridians to the Valley.

“This is a long journey,” said Garber, chairman of the Shenandoah Valley Regional Airport Commission, who was both relieved and ecstatic."


That isn't a rational reaction, it;s completely subjective and that tone has been continued in a couple of editorials:

http://www.newsleader.com/article/20...e-about-Florida?odyssey=nav%7Chead

"You now are free to move about Florida"

http://www2.newsvirginian.com/news/2...g-high-valleys-airport-ar-2140259/

"Editorial: Flying high at the Valley's airport"

As I said in another thread, I love it. I think the Shenandoah Valley is one of the undiscovered jewels of America.

The reaction has been very similar at COU, too, if less subjective, and I wouldn't fall over in shock if COU eventually gets DEN service.

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wepaman
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 39):
The reaction has been very similar at COU, too, if less subjective, and I wouldn't fall over in shock if COU eventually gets DEN service.

mariner

Mariner, that route is bound to happend, hopefully very soon... First, we need to see what is behind door # 1 (COU), But we are happy for MCO...


Wepa
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mariner
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting wepaman (Reply 40):
Mariner, that route is bound to happend, hopefully very soon... First, we need to see what is behind door # 1 (COU), But we are happy for MCO...

I agree. I think it is one of the cleverest routes that Frontier has chosen. It will never be MCI or STL with multiple daily frequencies, but it doesn't need to be that.

There are a few others - to MCO - that I'd like to see:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 36):
Given F9 recent build-up of MCO and because G4 announced intention to leave BTV; I have a inkling BTV-MCO may be in the next round of F9 announcements.

I think it would be a neat route - as would PWM - and either would help to plug the "big hole" in the Frontier route map - the northeast.

There are other holes in the route map that MCO could fill, but - and this really is pipe dreaming - I'd love to see Frontier back in Canada, from MCO not from DEN, and I'd probably plump for MCO-YQB, of only winter seasonal.

But that's racing ahead and for now, I'm quite happy with these present choices.

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wepaman
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 41):
There are a few others - to MCO - that I'd like to see:

Will love to see IAH - MCO, I even go one better IAH - SJU...   


Wepa
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spiritair97
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 36):
Given F9 recent build-up of MCO and because G4 announced intention to leave BTV; I have a inkling BTV-MCO may be in the next round of F9 announcements. With that said I've noticed over the years F9 has avoided competing DEN and the Rockie Mountain region with another Winter destination in Winter. I think BTV location to Canada could be a consideration point.

I do agree that BTV may be in the next round of new service announcements, but what did that have to do with MYR?
 
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RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 39):
Editorial: Flying high at the Valley's airport"

Doesn't the FAA frown on that!

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 43):
but what did that have to do with MYR?

Not a thing. I confused MCO with MCI again mentioned in your post #35 discussing MYR-MCO. MYR could very well be a future destination from MCO.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

RE: 2 New Frontier Destinations COU & SHD

Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:09 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 44):
Doesn't the FAA frown on that!

Not if you're in Colorado and can find the right doctor.........