sennabestever
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Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:01 pm

I've never heard of anything like this before! I guess they couldn't agree on data input and it resulted in the flight not departing until the next day!

http://www.theage.com.au/travel/trav...r-pilots-clash-20120821-24joq.html
 
azstar
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:19 pm

I was under the impression that QF carries two complete cockpit crews on ultra long flights like this. Am I incorrect?

[Edited 2012-08-21 07:19:50]
 
sw733
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:20 pm

Quoting azstar (Reply 1):
I was under the impression that QF carries two complete cockpit crews on ultra long flights like this. Am I incorrect?

They usually have 3-4 pilots on board, yes.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:23 pm

I never worry about going to hell because you just need to pick up the paper and on any given day there seems to be half a dozen "flights from hell" I can take to get out.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:28 pm

Would be nice to have the recordings from the cockpit voice recorder.

At least I hope they fought like the animal shown on the tail fin of their plane. It's an obligation for QF staff, isn't it?  
 
kaitak
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:37 pm

This is a huge embarassment for QF and reading through some posts on another website, it seems that the captain was a "difficult" individual (that is, shall we say, a euphemism). The SO has a job to do and it's his role to speak up and say something if he feels it's not being done right; that would be drilled into him during his CRM training and not to speak up when he should would be a dereliction of duty.

The airline will be looking at this very carefully and given that the captain in question had allegedly been invited to meet his Chief Pilot and Flight Ops management on a few occasions, he would be likely to have some explaining to do.
 
AirCalSNA
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:41 pm

That story sounds completely overblown. Aussie news must be hard up for news.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:45 pm

I think "fight" in the thread subject is too strong. Other news items I've seen refer to an "argument" or similar.
 
txjim
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:50 pm

The article stated that Qantas did not have sufficient staff to handle the passanger's accommodations. Would they not approach their Oneworld partner to assist or is that not the norm?
 
dirtyfrankd
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:17 pm

This has to be one of the most poorly written articles I have ever read...
 
planereality
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:00 pm

"It was just one cock up after the other."
...the ideal euphmism I suppose
Andiamo!
 
bennett123
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:09 pm

IMO, if this ended in a punch up, then one or both of them will be looking for a new job.

In most jobs, this sort of thing is gross misconduct, leading to a escorted trip to the front door.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:12 pm

Quoting txjim (Reply 8):
Would they not approach their Oneworld partner to assist or is that not the norm?

No, only their handling agent. Given that this was after midnight and most (all?) international departures would have left I imagine that the handling agent would only have a skeleton staff left at the airport.

At DFW I'd guess that QF have only a handful of in-house employees other than a Station Manager. While it's regrettable that there weren't more people, that isn't strictly QF's fault. After all no self-respecting outsource provider would employ a person more than they have to!

Even if they had asked (i.e. paid a fortune for) AA to step in and help, the AA staff in DFW probably have never been trained on QF's computer system since they aren't the handling provider. Maybe at LAX they could have called for reinforcements given that AA do QF's handling in T4 so there are AAgents who know QF.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
spacecadet
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:15 pm

Quoting dirtyfrankd (Reply 9):
This has to be one of the most poorly written articles I have ever read...

I agree, although it's easy to see why. There's no "there" there. The headline is about a cockpit "clash", but there's really very little actual info about that in the article itself, and it probably was a relatively minor part of all this, so the writer/editor has to pump the article up with fluff.

This is basically a long article about a flight that was delayed, and therefore the pilots exceeded their hours.

Whether anything happened in the cockpit at all is barely even suggested, except that there's apparently an investigation. But why? What was this "clash" about, what caused it, who noticed it and what did they hear? There are no details, which leads me to think it probably either didn't happen, or it was a fairly routine and relatively minor disagreement about something or other that maybe took a few extra minutes to figure out.

Most of the problems on this flight were obviously related to delays caused by the weather.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:41 am

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 6):
That story sounds completely overblown. Aussie news must be hard up for news.

It was serious enough for them to both be stood down. Because they could not agree on something as basic as data to be entered into the computer, the flight had to be cancelled. This has cost the airline money and caused a major inconvenience to passengers, at a time when QANTAS is fighitng for it's life. The share price has crashed, customers are deserting it and competitors are expanding into it's market share.
 
lasairlinerenth
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:09 am

Well, I sure hope Qantas isn't falling apart at the seams. I will be flying them (and Jetstar) for the very first time from LAX to Perth and back this November/December. Looking forward to it.
 
fbgdavidson
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting txjim (Reply 8):
The article stated that Qantas did not have sufficient staff to handle the passanger's accommodations

I had heard the DFW loads on the QF flights weren't great but sheesh! How many staff does it take to handle one person?!  
"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:55 am

Quoting lasairlinerenth (Reply 15):
Well, I sure hope Qantas isn't falling apart at the seams. I will be flying them (and Jetstar) for the very first time from LAX to Perth and back this November/December. Looking forward to it.

Not falling apart at the seams at all, it is a professionaly run airline, everything is maintained well, even if parts a getting a little shabby now. The Jetstar Airbii are in good condition. Just not seeing a bright future at the moment, so every fault is a big story.

In this case, though, if the pilots can't even get off the ground as a team, you really can't have them up there flying in that state.
 
AR385
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:13 am

My question, and forgive me if it´s already been answered, is how is it that the passengers, or anybody external to QF found out about the arguments going on in the cockpit?
 
koruman
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:56 am

Am I missing something?

I'm usually the first to find fault with Qantas, but it sounds here as if a cautious captain did not want to take risks with patient safety in adverse weather, which resulted in a delay because of duty times.

That's good, isn't it?

I don't want to fly in dangerous conditions, or on an airline which breaches duty limits.
 
vincewy
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:16 am

Blown out of proportion, didn't this happen on TK's A340 in the 90s too (IST-JFK)? Yeah, 2 pilots lashed out at each other during the flight.
 
Rara
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:27 am

I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often actually. There has always been a good number of senior captains who've developed pretty lax standards, have little to lose career-wise, and aren't going to follow company procedures to the letter. Historically the captain was God, and what he said was done. Nowadays co-pilots are instructed to stand their own ground, to give their opinion about safety-relevant issues, and to intervene if they believe the aircraft isn't operated safely. I can see how that leads to conflicts in the cockpit.

That said, what a terrible article. I can write an article like that about any single flight.

"The landing did seem a bit hard to me", said Flora W., 42, who was travelling with her two children. "Also my son didn't get his meal choice. It's just been a huge mess". The news struck the airline only years after yet another hard landing in which even overhead bins had opened, according to eye witnesses. "This airline is totally mismanaged", said a business insider who declined to be named. Etc. etc.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
Independence76
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:32 am

Looking back on the BEA accident in the 1960's, what is the probability this was a Management vs. Union argument?

Considering QF8 is their longest ULH route, is it probable they got into a heated discussion over shifts and Union agreements?
 
babybus
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:46 am

You wonder sometimes if it's not time to put the concept of the newspaper to bed. Do we ever get an accurate story these days?

In these times of blogs and social media the pilots could just post their side of the story for us to make up our own mind about what really happened. It would be far more entertaining.

We also need to move away from the boss is king attitude. It leads to errors in the cockpit,misdiagnosis in hospitals, mismanagement of companies etc.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
weebie
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:37 am

Rule Number 1 for non Australians.

Don't believe a word from the tabloids.

I don't believe that article for a second.
 
LHRXXXLHR
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:49 am

As far as I can tell from the quoted article and others, we can't say for sure that this was a "the boss is king" situation.

Anyone care to take a stab at what they were arguing about? The article talks about takeoff performance numbers. We're talking about one of the longest leg's the -400ER does on a warm summer day in Dallas with the assumption of a decent load. There's not a whole lot of margin to be discussing in the performance numbers. Sounds like a MAX TO kind of day. Were they arguing about wet versus dry V1? I can think of a few other things up for discussion but nothing that's going to cause an argument.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:57 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
I think "fight" in the thread subject is too strong. Other news items I've seen refer to an "argument" or similar.

Sounds more like a Disagreement....
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
grimey
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RE: Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:16 pm

Maybe they were arguing over who gets the last pair of XL first class pyjamas.