DariusBieber
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Air Berlin's Future In The US

Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:47 pm

I've tried looking for this specific question on the forum, but couldn't really see it being discussed on a US-based perspective.


With them now being a Member of One World, will Air Berlin fly to DFW or ORD in the near future to their Hub in DUS? This would certainly put a damper on LH's and DL's flights to DUS. In my experiences, all LH's and DL's flights to DUS were/are full.

AA's connecting traffic to both DFW and ORD are enormous in terms of passengers carried, could a route to DUS by AB be sustained from those AA hubs?
Darius Bieber
 
strfyr51
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:06 pm

Idon't see why Not!!
 
jfk777
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:15 pm

Air Berlin is flying daily to Miami this summer. ORD more the zone for AB, don't see many Germans going to Texas or Texans gong to Dusseldorf.
 
jcwr56
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:41 pm

Perhaps since it's more of a Oneworld Hub to hub now....you'll see this again in the near future.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...duesseldorf-daily-non-stop-service
 
IndustryInsider
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
Air Berlin is flying daily to Miami this summer. ORD more the zone for AB, don't see many Germans going to Texas or Texans gong to Dusseldorf.

Why not? German immigrants settled in the Texas Hill Country region in the mid-19th century. These immigrants founded the towns of New Braunfels, Fredericksburg, Boerne, Schulenburg, Weimar, Walburg, and Comfort.
 
jreuschl
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:09 pm

They are flying to ORD beginning in March 2013.
 
flymia
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting IndustryInsider (Reply 4):
Why not? German immigrants settled in the Texas Hill Country region in the mid-19th century. These immigrants founded the towns of New Braunfels, Fredericksburg, Boerne, Schulenburg, Weimar, Walburg, and Comfort.


Why would German Tourist go to Texas? Who cares about Immigrants in the 19th century. Doubt they are going to Germany to visit relatives. I am sure there are some Germany tourist in Texas but probably not enough for a flight. Now if they flew to DFW for connection opportunities that would be a different thing.

I am happy to see RSW still around along with DUS and TXL/BER from MIA
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Senchingo
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 5):
They are flying to ORD beginning in March 2013.

Starting March 23rd from BER (not DUS) to ORD.

Also flying to RSW, LAS, LAX, MIA, JFK and SFO.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
Why would German Tourist go to Texas? Who cares about Immigrants in the 19th century. Doubt they are going to Germany to visit relatives. I am sure there are some Germany tourist in Texas but probably not enough for a flight. Now if they flew to DFW for connection opportunities that would be a different thing.

Well, DFW-FRA is a pretty large local market. Largest Texas-Germany local market and its supported two carriers for years. But its not tourist traffic, its pretty much all business.

As far as tourism to Texas there isnt much of that from anywhere outside of the US, Mexico, and Central America. But there DFW and Houston are huge business centers that recieve people from all over the globe.
It is what it is...
 
DariusBieber
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:29 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
don't see many Germans going to Texas or Texans gong to Dusseldorf.

Hmm Lufthansa seems to do pretty well using A380s from IAH to FRA. If there was a flight to DUS from DFW, I guarantee people will book it over FRA if they are connecting in Germany.

As I've been to both DUS and FRA, I can say with certainty that connecting in DUS is so much easier. Passport control is way faster, even with only 4 or so Bundespolizei available at the counters. The airport itself is smaller, making connections easier as well.
Darius Bieber
 
flymia
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:52 am

Quoting DariusBieber (Reply 9):
Hmm Lufthansa seems to do pretty well using A380s from IAH to FRA. If there was a flight to DUS from DFW, I guarantee people will book it over FRA if they are connecting in Germany.
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):
But its not tourist traffic, its pretty much all business.


Exactly, AB is not an airline hauling business travelers around. They focus on leisure markets, at least long haul.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
flyguy89
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:53 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
Quoting DariusBieber (Reply 9):
Hmm Lufthansa seems to do pretty well using A380s from IAH to FRA. If there was a flight to DUS from DFW, I guarantee people will book it over FRA if they are connecting in Germany.
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):
But its not tourist traffic, its pretty much all business.


Exactly, AB is not an airline hauling business travelers around. They focus on leisure markets, at least long haul.

They do both, although their original specialty was serving the leisure markets. They have a comparable enough business and economy product on both short and long-haul and they've been working to morph into low-fare, full-service-type carrier for a while now, joining oneWorld is a part of that strategy and they most certainly will be going after the biz travelers in NYC and ORD.
 
columba
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:51 am

If AB manages to survive the next months and if the new airport in Berlin will not be delayed too much there is a great hope that AB will become a great alternative on flights to the US, I wish them well......

They will need more longhaul planes though also I believe they could go for some 787-9s instead of the -8 but right now AB is other problems to be solved

[Edited 2012-08-23 02:52:39]
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
point2point
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:18 am

Quoting Senchingo (Reply 7):
Starting March 23rd from BER (not DUS) to ORD.

Also flying to RSW, LAS, LAX, MIA, JFK and SFO.

Bring them into DEN. There would be enough O&D both ways to fill a few flights a week during the high season.

 
 
fraT
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:03 pm

Quoting Senchingo (Reply 7):
Also flying to RSW, LAS, LAX, MIA, JFK and SFO.

I don't see the DUS-LAS flight loaded for next summer.
Same as DUS-YVR.
 
RogerThat
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:05 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
Why would German Tourist go to Texas?

Why would tourists from anywhere go to Texas?
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
Texans gong to Dusseldorf.

I'm moving that way in January...it'd work for me...therefore, AB should start that route NOW!  
 
dcaviation
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:24 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):
Largest Texas-Germany local market

No its not. Houston has largest Texas-Germany local market.
 
vfw614
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:59 pm

As they have axed everything east of AUH already because of the Etihad cooperation, one has to wonder what the future long-haul operation will look like if they cut back routes to the US and Canada rather than expanding their TATL network. Not much left where they could deploy their WB fleet to.
 
flyguy89
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting RogerThat (Reply 15):
Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
Why would German Tourist go to Texas?

Why would tourists from anywhere go to Texas?

Texas gets a fair amount of tourists but, as stated previously, most of it's domestic. A lot of people vacation on Texas' Gulf Coast, they have some pretty nice beaches...and then the cities of Dallas, Austin, and Houston can be destinations in and of themselves, Austin in particular as there's a pretty big music scene there among other things.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 17):
No its not. Houston has largest Texas-Germany local market.


DFW-FRA is the largest city pair from Texas to Germany slightly edging out IAH-FRA according to the O&D data I have seen. Not sure about the whole country, I would have to look it up.

[Edited 2012-08-23 10:40:58]
It is what it is...
 
IndustryInsider
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
Why would German Tourist go to Texas? Who cares about Immigrants in the 19th century. Doubt they are going to Germany to visit relatives. I am sure there are some Germany tourist in Texas but probably not enough for a flight. Now if they flew to DFW for connection opportunities that would be a different thing.

Glad to know you are so much of an aficionado when it comes to the demographics of Texas. I put thie previous comment out there simply to illustrate there are large German based communities in Texas. To you point:

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
AB is not an airline hauling business travelers around. They focus on leisure markets, at least long haul.

I'm glad you know exactly what AB is after; however, this statement proves you do not. I actually have regular conversations with the AB managment, so maybe in this instance you don't know as much as you believe. That is no way implying that AB is interested in DFW, but rather is simply pointing out that you are simply spouting inaccuracies to get a rise out of people.
 
MAV88
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):

Exactly, AB is not an airline hauling business travelers around. They focus on leisure markets, at least long haul.

I am willing to bet Texas is not too high on the list of places for German and really most European tourists for that matter. They all flock to Boston, NYC, Washington, D.C., Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Florida in the states.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
Exactly, AB is not an airline hauling business travelers around. They focus on leisure markets, at least long haul.

AB could not survive in this fuel cost environment entering into the long-haul sector and targeting after only leisure traffic. Yes, they may be currently present in more leisure-oriented markets, but that doesn't solely define the type of passenger they are going after. In fact, quite the opposite given their current operating model (higher frequency, interline agreements, codeshare, alliances, etc).
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
flymia
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 22):
I am willing to bet Texas is not too high on the list of places for German and really most European tourists for that matter. They all flock to Boston, NYC, Washington, D.C., Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Florida in the states.

Of course. Texas is a big business destination but not exactly a place many international tourist flock to.

Quoting IndustryInsider (Reply 21):
but rather is simply pointing out that you are simply spouting inaccuracies to get a rise out of people.

You believe I am stating this to get rises out of people? AB for a long time has been a heavy leisure airline. Joining OW will change that. If we look at their destinations we can see that. They also do not have a true first class product as of now. Do they get business travelers of course they do every airline does. But IMO it is not their main goal and their aircraft and destinations seem show that. I expect with OW for this to change.
But get a rise out of people, come on I have more important things to do.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Senchingo
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:26 pm

Quoting frat (Reply 14):
I don't see the DUS-LAS flight loaded for next summer.

It is seasonal afaik
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:11 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 24):
You believe I am stating this to get rises out of people? AB for a long time has been a heavy leisure airline. Joining OW will change that. If we look at their destinations we can see that. They also do not have a true first class product as of now. Do they get business travelers of course they do every airline does. But IMO it is not their main goal and their aircraft and destinations seem show that. I expect with OW for this to change.
But get a rise out of people, come on I have more important things to do.


Sigh. I don't think you're doing this to get a rise out of people, but I think you do tend to stretch the truth before checking your facts when you make postings, and then make adjustments when someone tries to correct you.

For example, you originally stated that AB was a leisure carrier. Then, you changed your stance to say OW will change that. There are some elements of truth to both statements, but you can't claim it both ways.

AB does have a strong leisure orientation, but it has evolved into a hybrid carrier and indeed it will experience an uptick in yields thanks to a codeshare agreement with American and strategic partnership with Etihad.

Moreover, just because the portfolio of destinations served by AB are leisure-based, that doesn't mean it cannot add value to the OW network. For one, it increases opportunities for OW travelers to redeem miles on leisure points. It also brings 12 new German cities, 15 European cities, 9 African Cities, and 1 city each from Latin America and the Middle East to the OneWorld table.

AirBerlin also has huge potential in providing OneWorld a gateway hub to Eastern Europe and will fill a critical need in giving Star a run for their money in the very important German market. With proper growth and planning, AB will indeed be an imperative reliever hub over LHR (and to a lesser degree, MAD) in facilitating OneWorld connections in Europe.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
flymia
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:50 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 26):
Sigh. I don't think you're doing this to get a rise out of people, but I think you do tend to stretch the truth before checking your facts when you make postings, and then make adjustments when someone tries to correct you.

For example, you originally stated that AB was a leisure carrier. Then, you changed your stance to say OW will change that. There are some elements of truth to both statements, but you can't claim it both ways.

AB does have a strong leisure orientation, but it has evolved into a hybrid carrier and indeed it will experience an uptick in yields thanks to a codeshare agreement with American and strategic partnership with Etihad.

Moreover, just because the portfolio of destinations served by AB are leisure-based, that doesn't mean it cannot add value to the OW network. For one, it increases opportunities for OW travelers to redeem miles on leisure points. It also brings 12 new German cities, 15 European cities, 9 African Cities, and 1 city each from Latin America and the Middle East to the OneWorld table.

AirBerlin also has huge potential in providing OneWorld a gateway hub to Eastern Europe and will fill a critical need in giving Star a run for their money in the very important German market. With proper growth and planning, AB will indeed be an imperative reliever hub over LHR (and to a lesser degree, MAD) in facilitating OneWorld connections in Europe.

I will agree with that. I also think adding AB is great for OW.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 19):
Texas gets a fair amount of tourists but, as stated previously, most of it's domestic. A lot of people vacation on Texas' Gulf Coast, they have some pretty nice beaches...and then the cities of Dallas, Austin, and Houston can be destinations in and of themselves, Austin in particular as there's a pretty big music scene there among other things.

Certainly, there is plenty of domestic tourist to see. There is history in Texas that we know about because we are from the U.S. and there are locations that we know about like Austin and Corpus Christi etc.. But as of now it is just not very high on international tourist radar. Though I think many many people from all around the world would really enjoy Austin.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
flyguy89
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:23 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 19):
Texas gets a fair amount of tourists but, as stated previously, most of it's domestic. A lot of people vacation on Texas' Gulf Coast, they have some pretty nice beaches...and then the cities of Dallas, Austin, and Houston can be destinations in and of themselves, Austin in particular as there's a pretty big music scene there among other things.

Certainly, there is plenty of domestic tourist to see. There is history in Texas that we know about because we are from the U.S. and there are locations that we know about like Austin and Corpus Christi etc.. But as of now it is just not very high on international tourist radar. Though I think many many people from all around the world would really enjoy Austin.

Oh I very much agree, and if AB decided to serve DFW it would purely be for connections and O&D. I was more trying to address the person who asked why tourists from anywhere would go to Texas.
 
columba
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:26 am

Quoting DariusBieber (Thread starter):
With them now being a Member of One World, will Air Berlin fly to DFW

Not for the time being but once BER opened and they have their 787s this might be an option. But maybe AA fly to BER instead
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
fraT
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:32 am

Quoting Senchingo (Reply 25):
Quoting frat (Reply 14):
I don't see the DUS-LAS flight loaded for next summer.

It is seasonal afaik

But it's not loaded for the winter either.  
 
fraT
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:37 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 26):
AirBerlin also has huge potential in providing OneWorld a gateway hub to Eastern Europe and will fill a critical need in giving Star a run for their money in the very important German market. With proper growth and planning, AB will indeed be an imperative reliever hub over LHR (and to a lesser degree, MAD) in facilitating OneWorld connections in Europe.

Well, to get to that point they have to survive the coming winter.
With their critical topics (constant losses in recent years, BER delay, rumored EY dissatisfaction with the current CEO) there are hard times ahead for them.
 
flyingalex
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:16 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 18):
As they have axed everything east of AUH already because of the Etihad cooperation, one has to wonder what the future long-haul operation will look like if they cut back routes to the US and Canada rather than expanding their TATL network. Not much left where they could deploy their WB fleet to.

They haven't axed everything east of AUH, they still fly to HKT, although via AUH. Interestingly, EY codeshares on that flight and you can book that flight as part of a larger EY itinerary. And you can even book a stand-alone AUH-HKT sector on Air Berlin, so they seem to have full traffic rights.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
 
N62NA
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:15 am

Quoting RogerThat (Reply 15):
Why would tourists from anywhere go to Texas?

To go here, of course!

http://southfork.com/

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 26):

AirBerlin also has huge potential in providing OneWorld a gateway hub to Eastern Europe

Yep, now that Malev is no more. Makes sense!
 
4engines4lnghll
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:35 am

Why would AB fly to IAH rather than DFW.. Their OW partner is at DFW .

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 17):
4engines4lnghll
 
4engines4lnghll
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:39 am

If AB had a nonstop route to DFW that could give passengers a huge advantage to many other destinations. AA has a lot of cities from MIA as well just not as much as DFW.
4engines4lnghll
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting 4engines4lnghll (Reply 35):

If AB had a nonstop route to DFW that could give passengers a huge advantage to many other destinations. AA has a lot of cities from MIA as well just not as much as DFW.

While I agree that the connection possibilities are great, the challenge for AB will be insuring that they can fill the plane profitably, and year-round, in order for a flight to DFW to work.

As others have pointed out, there is not a huge local market between DFW and BER today. The travel time between Texas and Germany can also last longer than 10 hours, so it is certainly not an inexpensive route to fly given the price of oil these days, especially if it is being flown on mostly connection fares.

That said, AB's success in the OneWorld arena will indeed require more long-haul feed into their hub, so perhaps we will see more North American expansion once the new airport is up-and-running. DFW may potentially be in those cards.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
flyingalex
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:23 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 36):
As others have pointed out, there is not a huge local market between DFW and BER today.

Personally, I think it would be DUS-DFW rather than BER-DFW. The former has a much, much better change of attracting O&D business traffic and the DUS hub is not far behind TXL in terms of destinations.

And that's before we even mention BER's problems in becoming operational.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Air Berlin's Future In The US

Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:48 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 37):
Personally, I think it would be DUS-DFW rather than BER-DFW. The former has a much, much better change of attracting O&D business traffic and the DUS hub is not far behind TXL in terms of destinations.

I agree with you on the business traffic component, but connecting traffic beyond a hub in Eastern Europe is still key to the value proposition that AB brings to OW.

In any case, time will tell. DFW faces major limitations when it comes to supporting nonstop links to Europe.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.