AirBuffalo
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B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:32 pm

More airlines going the route of increasing "premium" seating and squishing everyone else tighter, but in this article, the revenue math is screwy:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/22/travel...e-legroom/index.html?iref=obinsite

Per the article:

"[Jetblue is] cutting leg distance from 33 inches to 32 inches in 11 rows aboard its fleet of 52 Embraer E190 planes.

The extra space will be taken up by two more rows of seats near the front of the cabin with 38 inches of legroom. The change puts JetBlue on track to rake in $150 million in additional revenue this year, says a spokeswoman."

Obviously, cutting 1 inch from each of 11 rows does not allow you to add additional rows so the revenue prediction is just the additional amount they get by adding 8 more seats of premium seating where once was just normal seating.
Assuming that these seats get $30 additional on average per flight and every flight sells all 8 seats ... the planes would need to fly 33 flight segments per day, 365 days/year to make $150m dollars. Clearly, the number is at least an order of magnitude off -- or am I missing something?

The math:

$150m = 33 segments/day * 365 days * 52 planes * 8 seats/plane * $30 /seat

AB
 
JBLUA320
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:58 pm

This is correct and actually, the modifications are just about done, if not completely done. Before the mods, the Even More Space seats on the E190 were at Rows 1 and 12. Due to the design of the airplane, reconfiguring seats forward of the exit row to make for more Even More Space seats was not an option so we had to use rows 13 and 14. The E190 always had 32" forward of the exit row while the rows behind had 33". Now, it'll be a standard 32" for the non EMS seats and the EMS rows are 1, 12, 13 and 14.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting jblua320 (Reply 1):
Due to the design of the airplane, reconfiguring seats forward of the exit row to make for more Even More Space seats was not an option so we had to use rows 13 and 14.

Maybe I'm just being thick, but on other carriers, isn't one of the perks of these seats quick egress from the plane? Rows 13 and 14 don't have that.
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Joost
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting AirBuffalo (Thread starter):
The change puts JetBlue on track to rake in $150 million in additional revenue this year, says a spokeswoman."
Quoting AirBuffalo (Thread starter):
The math:

$150m = 33 segments/day * 365 days * 52 planes * 8 seats/plane * $30 /seat

I guess they mean that B6 wants to have a total of $150M in additional revenue over the full year, for all services sold. So let's say they would otherwise achieve $130M additional revenue, and this change increases additional revenue to $150M.
 
JBLUA320
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
Maybe I'm just being thick, but on other carriers, isn't one of the perks of these seats quick egress from the plane? Rows 13 and 14 don't have that.

Well, that's what I thought, too. But, I have to say that since the seats have gone on-sale, they are quite popular, especially with the business folks who just want some extra space to spread out and leisure customers looking for a little more room to breathe. I actually prefer 13/14 to 1 and 12 having now tried them all.

Realistically, it doesn't slow down your exit too much since you're waiting for around 50 people to deplane and the entire deplaning process for a full E190 is generally around 7 minutes once the boarding door is opened. The product is cleverly marketed, though, that you get priority boarding, early access to overhead bins (thats the big ticket) and extra legroom.
 
KDAYflyer
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:43 pm

I seriously do not understand why WN has not taken this route on the 737-800. They could have and made an investment in keeping the business traffic of FL.
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:46 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
Maybe I'm just being thick, but on other carriers, isn't one of the perks of these seats quick egress from the plane? Rows 13 and 14 don't have that.

Yup, but it would take a significantly higher amount of work to re-pitch towards the front as all the rows behind would have to be moved. Trust me, I questioned it too and made the SAME EXACT argument in various meetings, but this way was the most efficient and cost effective way it could be done. This allowed the fleet to be completed quickly with less manpower/hours needed, lets parts being touched and swapped out, and less things having to be moved within the cabin (PSUs, etc.). Once I looked at all the pros vs. the cons for how the project was done, it started making A LOT of sense on the operational and cost-savings side for getting the project done and rolled out.
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
AirBuffalo
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting joost (Reply 3):
total of $150M in additional revenue over the full year, for all services sold

Yea, I guess that is the only way it makes sense. Definitely misleading (although probably not intentionally) to omit the baseline to which the $150m is being added.
 
questions
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:51 pm

What about the A320s?
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 8):
What about the A320s?

A320'S were re-pitched quite some time ago, and that is what the EMS (then EML) program launched with. EMS seating available rows 1-5, 10 & 11. That was the 3rd time the A320's underwent a re-pitch (162-156 seats, 156-150 seats, 150 with EMS).

And just to re-clarify:

Quoting AirBuffalo (Thread starter):
"[Jetblue is] cutting leg distance from 33 inches to 32 inches in 11 rows aboard its fleet of 52 Embraer E190 planes.

....is very misleading as....

Quoting jblua320 (Reply 1):
The E190 always had 32" forward of the exit row while the rows behind had 33". Now, it'll be a standard 32" for the non EMS seats and the EMS rows are 1, 12, 13 and 14.

Meaning that for the last 7 years, people flying on the E190 in the back of the plane were getting more legroom for the same price as people in the front. Now everyone gets the same unless they are paying the premium to have a LOT more space.

~H81
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
JBLUA320
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 9):
Meaning that for the last 7 years, people flying on the E190 in the back of the plane were getting more legroom for the same price as people in the front. Now everyone gets the same unless they are paying the premium to have a LOT more space.

Yup! I've asked customers on my flights how they feel about the EMS seats being at 13/14 and they actually seem to like it. They aren't concerned with the extra few minutes it takes to get off the plane... the point is to be comfy and have the extra room during the flight. It struck me weird at first, too, but now seeing it in action, it's been a huge success!
 
N766UA
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting jblua320 (Reply 1):
EMS rows are 1

But 1 is a bulkhead, so even though you *technically* have more room, you actually have less room.

I'd have no problem just sucking it up and flying with 32'' on any route B6 flies the 190 on. It's pretty comfortable anyway, especially with 2x2 and wide seats.
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Cubsrule
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 11):
I'd have no problem just sucking it up and flying with 32'' on any route B6 flies the 190 on. It's pretty comfortable anyway, especially with 2x2 and wide seats.

I've long thought that the E-jets have more legroom at a given pitch than other types. I'll take 32 inches on a 190 over 32 inches on an Airbus every day of the week and, as you say, the seats are wider as well.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
airbazar
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
Maybe I'm just being thick, but on other carriers, isn't one of the perks of these seats quick egress from the plane? Rows 13 and 14 don't have that.

I think you're confusing it with F class. This is basically just marketing and taking advantage of the inherent space of Exit rows.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:52 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 13):
I think you're confusing it with F class. This is basically just marketing and taking advantage of the inherent space of Exit rows.

3 exit rows in an E90? That's a pretty sweet E90.
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INFINITI329
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:55 pm

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 5):
I seriously do not understand why WN has not taken this route on the 737-800. They could have and made an investment in keeping the business traffic of FL.

Couple reasons why we cannot...

- Our seating policy, it would cause us to end up giving away those seats for free, im pretty sure our f/as wouldn't want to to block more seats than they do now.
- Putting it in one type wouldn't really wont help things, if a -700 has to be substituted (if the -800 is booked to 143 or less)
- Any more seats in the -700 or any adjustments in legroom and we would be flirting with spirit-type legroom
 
Cubsrule
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:00 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 15):
- Any more seats in the -700 or any adjustments in legroom and we would be flirting with spirit-type legroom

Legroom outside of the exit rows is not noticeably different with the new interior. But I don't know what another row or two would do . . .
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
INFINITI329
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
Legroom outside of the exit rows is not noticeably different with the new interior. But I don't know what another row or two would do . . .

From what I understand people 6' 0'' and up don't really fit that comfortably in evo interior..they fit just not that comfortably this is what I have been told...Im way shorter than that so I fit rather well.

[Edited 2012-08-24 10:17:20]
 
Cubsrule
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 17):
From what I understand people 6' 0'' and up don't really fit that comfortably in evo interior..they fit just not that comfortably this is what I have been told...Im way shorter than that so I fit rather well.

I'm taller than that. It's no different. The exit row legroom is noticeably worse, but that's it.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
upgrademaster
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:22 pm

airlines are failing to focus on the CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE and they are too focused on fitting as many passengers as possible on the plane. Seems like there is a new seat supplier who understood the need of improving the passenger space rather then reducing comfort in seak of quik profits.

http://blog.apex.aero/cabin-interior...s-zest-premium-seat/#comment-23365
 
airbazar
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
3 exit rows in an E90? That's a pretty sweet E90.

Yes. One row on either side of the over wing exit, plus row 1.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 20):
Yes. One row on either side of the over wing exit, plus row 1.

No, EMS is 1, 12, 13 and 14. That's one bulkhead, one exit row and two rows that are not exit rows but are nonetheless located over the wings.
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spacecadet
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RE: B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?

Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting upgrademaster (Reply 19):
airlines are failing to focus on the CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE and they are too focused on fitting as many passengers as possible on the plane.

This is not about fitting more passengers on the plane. This is about providing a standardized experience in economy and allowing for more "even more space" seats. If you want a good CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE, pay the extra $25 for an EMS seat.

As someone who often complains about the "race to the bottom" airlines have been in for too long, I think the kind of thing JetBlue is doing with EMS is a big part of the solution. It's the passengers' fault if they don't have enough room on these planes - more room is available and JetBlue charges pretty reasonable fees for it. It's not like the old economy/business/first paradigm, where economy is one price and then the next level up is literally 10 times more expensive. If you want more room, you should have to pay for it... but at a reasonable rate. That's what JetBlue is offering. And people who just want the cheapest possible fare can get that too... with the commensurate reduction in the amount of space they get. Either way, you get what you pay for - and that's how it should be.
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