SCL767
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IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:49 pm

IAG has warned Iberia to be prepared for increasing competition on routes between Europe and Latin America. While European carriers currently dominate traffic between Europe and Latin America, certain Latin American airline groups have invested heavily in renewing their respective fleets and are looking to increase flights between Latin America and Europe. Airline groups such as Aeroméxico, AviancaTaca and LATAM Airlines have new long-haul a/c on order and will increase flights to Europe and also into IB's hub at MAD. How will IB prepare for the increasing competition that it will soon face on its routes between MAD and Latin America?

IAG tells Iberia to prepare for a changing Europe-Latin America competitive setting

[Edited 2012-08-23 13:05:30]
 
LJ
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:20 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Thread starter):
How will IB prepare for the increasing competition that it will soon face on its routes between MAD and Latin America?

Probably they won´t. It surprises me that KL is able to fill a daily MD11/777 to PTY (and in W12 sometimes a 77W) whereas IB hasn´t able to grow their presence in PTY. Granted, local traffic between PTY and AMS increased over the years, but where TP has managed to keep its position in the Europe-Brazil market, IB seems to be sleeping and let the traffic go to the competition. Moreover, I don´t understand that IB doesn´t seem to be very aggressive towards Skyteam (if you look at the table in the article Skyteam has positions 2, 5, 6 and 8). Though this can be explained by the lack of Latin American partners.

Maybe this will change when IB receives their A330s, but these will replace the A340s initially, thus i doubt they´ll open new stations.
 
yellowtail
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 1):
IB hasn´t able to grow their presence in PTY.

This is not true....the PTY flight used to be a triangle with GUA but is now dedicated, ...so it has grown.....albeit more slowly than KL.

Remember IB is also right next door in SJO too so the flights do tend to cannabalize each other. KL does not have that issue
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incitatus
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Thread starter):
Airline groups such as Aeroméxico, AviancaTaca and LATAM Airlines have new long-haul a/c on order and will increase flights to Europe and also into IB's hub at MAD. How will IB prepare for the increasing competition that it will soon face on its routes between MAD and Latin America?

IB has an advantage in Madrid that it is well located geographically in Europe for connections. So it can tap into more large markets to fill its South Atlantic network than the carriers in Latin America can. It can also expand beyond Europe to create connection opportunities that today only exist with a double-connect MAD-LHR.

Looking at Europe as whole, AF/KL should be at least as concerned as IAG. They have more capacity to Latin America than IB/BA do.
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SCL767
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 3):
IB has an advantage in Madrid that it is well located geographically in Europe for connections. So it can tap into more large markets to fill its South Atlantic network than the carriers in Latin America can.

What other large markets in Latin America do you see IB expanding into?

Quoting incitatus (Reply 3):
It can also expand beyond Europe to create connection opportunities that today only exist with a double-connect MAD-LHR.

IB is slowly expanding into Africa, do you think IB will operate flights to the Far East in the long-term?
 
kaitak
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Thread starter):
IAG has warned Iberia to be prepared for increasing competition on routes between Europe and Latin America. While European carriers currently dominate traffic between Europe and Latin America, certain Latin American airline groups have invested heavily in renewing their respective fleets and are looking to increase flights between Latin America and Europe

Iberia SHOULD be the No1 choice; it has a superb new terminal at MAD and of course, being a Spanish carrier, it should be the natural choice to anywhere it Latin America. It's not the fleet that's the issue, it's the people. Surely IAG knows this; they can spend billions on a shiny new terminal and shiny new airplanes, but what they really need to spend billions on is their people - training them and making them understand that if their carrier is to grow, they need to play their part - be interested in providing a good service, look like they enjoy doing what they do, BE NICE, BE HELPFUL, BE, well, anything but what they are at the moment.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 4):
What other large markets in Latin America do you see IB expanding into?

For starters, all those 2nd tier Brazillian destinations that TAP does but IB ignores.
 
incitatus
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 4):
What other large markets in Latin America do you see IB expanding into?

That is not what I referred to.

IB can sell online services through MAD for a large set of large markets beyond MAD. It can expand beyong Europe into Asia and Middle East and connect those services with Latin America.

If Latin carriers add service into a city in Europe not in their alliance, all they can sell is pretty much Latin America to Europe. And the markets without any European carrier presence in Latin America are small.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 4):
IB is slowly expanding into Africa, do you think IB will operate flights to the Far East in the long-term?

China and Japan.
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mfc
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:32 pm

They are aware of that. The management have developed a project to improve quality everywhere, such as onboard service, ground service, punctuality, efficiency, connections... All 340 fleet is going to be refurbished with new interiors: A330 and A346 fleet will get PTV's in all classes and a new J class will be installed. A343 will also be refurbished with new interiors, but they won't have PTV's in Economy, although they will have plugs in every seat. Every purser will have an iPad with all the details of the flight in order to have everything under control and help the passengers. These are some examples of what they're doing, hopefully in a year we will see a much improved Iberia.
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LHRFlyer
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:37 pm

Quoting MFC (Reply 8):
Every purser will have an iPad with all the details of the flight in order to have everything under control and help the passengers.

A good example of an initiative that has been very successful at BA being transferred across to Iberia.
 
SCL767
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 5):
Iberia SHOULD be the No1 choice; it has a superb new terminal at MAD and of course, being a Spanish carrier, it should be the natural choice to anywhere it Latin America.

I have transited through T4 at MAD many times and it is a great facility.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 5):
It's not the fleet that's the issue, it's the people. Surely IAG knows this; they can spend billions on a shiny new terminal and shiny new airplanes, but what they really need to spend billions on is their people - training them and making them understand that if their carrier is to grow, they need to play their part - be interested in providing a good service, look like they enjoy doing what they do, BE NICE, BE HELPFUL, BE, well, anything but what they are at the moment.

Even though I have never flown on IB's long-haul services; the most common complaint about IB is the lack of customer service at all levels. It will be interesting to see how IAG changes customer service standards at IB.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 7):

That is not what I referred to.

IB can sell online services through MAD for a large set of large markets beyond MAD. It can expand beyong Europe into Asia and Middle East and connect those services with Latin America.

And IB's alliance partner LAN also code-shares on all IB operated flights between MAD and UIO/GYE, LIM and SCL. LAN also code-shares on certain domestic and short-haul routes operated by IB via MAD. LAN will increase flights into MAD; which will benefit IB's operations.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 7):


Quoting SCL767 (Reply 4):
IB is slowly expanding into Africa, do you think IB will operate flights to the Far East in the long-term?

China and Japan.

Perhaps IB will consider launching services to PEK, PVG and NRT when they have the right a/c to operate those routes.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:34 pm

Quoting MFC (Reply 8):

They are aware of that. The management have developed a project to improve quality everywhere, such as onboard service, ground service, punctuality, efficiency, connections... All 340 fleet is going to be refurbished with new interiors: A330 and A346 fleet will get PTV's in all classes and a new J class will be installed. A343 will also be refurbished with new interiors, but they won't have PTV's in Economy, although they will have plugs in every seat.

That's good to hear, their hard product really lets them down at the moment as it's so far behind other airlines. Also interesting that the A343s will be around for longer after all.


Dan  
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PDPsol
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:45 pm

The writing has been on the wall for quite some time. The 'cash cow' MAD-LATAM market that IB has relied on for years to provide growth is changing. With economic growth in LATAM [by the way, I am referring to the entire Latin American market here, not the LA/JJ Holding company] comes greater traffic, greater competition, and greater customer expectations.

IAG knows exactly what the strengths and limitations are at its IB subsidiary:

i) They know regional carriers such as AV, AM-Transportes Aereos Meridionais (Brazil)">JJ, LA and AM are enhancing route frequencies and product quality to Europe
ii) They know European competitors like AF and LH are very, very interested in taking advantage of the growing market to LATAM
iii) They know Middle East 'network' carriers like EK, TK and QR wish to exploit untapped demand to Asia from LATAM.

However, they also know IB and its management team has been resting on its long-haul laurels for too long. BA understands long-haul better than most carriers, and certainly better than their colleagues at IB. Any grandiose pretensions at management independence IB had before the IAG merger have been thrown out. Difficult times require difficult choices and I foresee material changes in IB's governance in the medium term. IAG have already stared down IB's labor unions and they are solely focused on maximizing value for their shareholders, as they should.

IB's MAD-LATAM franchise is a very valuable gem, and IAG will not squander an opportunity to make it even more valuable.
 
Talaier
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:57 pm

IB has about 2-3 years to fight back before it loses it's leadership throughout all markets. It still has room to grow since places like SCL, BOG, GIG and potentially CCS should all see double daily flights within the next 3 years given sustained growth. As to other markets, IB still has growth in three segments: Central American triangulars, smaller countries with no direct link from Europe (Paraguay, Bolivia) and secondary destinations in Argentina, Brazil, Colombia and Mexico. It needs 330s for a big chunk of those markets, which are one their way.

As to Asia, I wouldn't expect anything until 2014, unless JAL or Cathay start flying before.
 
incitatus
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 10):
And IB's alliance partner LAN also code-shares on all IB operated flights between MAD and UIO/GYE, LIM and SCL. LAN also code-shares on certain domestic and short-haul routes operated by IB via MAD. LAN will increase flights into MAD; which will benefit IB's operations.

With alliances it is a very different story.

Quoting Talaier (Reply 13):
IB has about 2-3 years to fight back before it loses it's leadership throughout all markets.

Also it is quite possible that IAG grows through BA London to Latin America. While IB's share might become smaller, BA's share might grow.
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PDPsol
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting Talaier (Reply 13):
As to other markets, IB still has growth in three segments: Central American triangulars, smaller countries with no direct link from Europe (Paraguay, Bolivia)

Fine, however, these are smaller markets, not material enough to 'move the needle'. Brasil, and to a lesser extent, Mexico, is where the action is.

Quoting Talaier (Reply 13):
secondary destinations in Argentina, Brazil, Colombia and Mexico

Agreed, especially Brasil. Brasil is the most important market and IB has dropped the ball in opening large 'secondary' cities such as CNF or BSB to MAD.

Quoting Talaier (Reply 13):
It needs 330s for a big chunk of those markets, which are one their way.

They need to adopt a long-haul fleet strategy quickly, the A330-300 is fine, but cannot replace the need for a longer-term solution. One can only imagine IAG has been evaluating this very carefully.

Mergers offer the opportunity to eliminate operational redundancy. IAG may be evaluating its original list to include much greater levels of integration with BA, including more aggressive fleet coordination and executive management. While Spain and the UK are obviously not the United States, but enhanced efficiency, including labor, is a top priority.
 
IBERIA747
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:28 pm

Quoting MFC (Reply 8):
A343 will also be refurbished with new interiors, but they won't have PTV's in Economy, although they will have plugs in every seat.

This has been done already.

7 A343s have been refurbished by removing the second Business Plus cabin (rows 6 and 7) and installing additional economy seats in that area. Those are brand new slimline seats with power plugs and adjustable headrests. Aditionally, big LCD monitors (37" or 40") have been installed in central bulkheads while smaller LCD monitors have replaced the old CRT screens above the central seats. It's not the best improvement but at least it's better than nothing!. I've had the chance to try these new cabins and I found them acceptable. At least they look more modern.

This is what Iberia called "Proyecto Caribe" and these aircraft with a bigger economy class section are mostly flown (although not exclusively) to those destinations which have a lower demand in Business Class, such as SDQ, HAV, GUA/SAL, PTY, UIO/GYE and a few others. Their new configuration is 24J / 267Y.

Their registrations are:
EC-GGS
EC-GHX
EC-GJT
EC-GLE
EC-GUP
EC-GUQ
EC-HGV

The 9 A343s remaining (Iberia only has 16 active A343s right now) still have the "IB standard" 36J / 218Y configuration. It has been mentioned that these aircraft could soon be getting the same seats that have been installed in the other 343s while keeping their current config., but hasn't been confirmed AFAIK.

EC-HDQ, EC-HGU and EC-HGX have been retired recently (April and June 2012), and the next A343 scheduled for retirement is EC-LHM (April 2013).

As has been mentioned, the first A346s are expected to go into the hangars for a full cabin refurbishment by the end of the year. They will get the long awaited new economy seats with PTVs and probably the new Business Plus seats as well.

The new A330-300s will start arriving in January, and these will have the new seats, of course.

Can't confirm if the previously-announced IB new corporate image will be applied to these new aircraft, though. Nothing new has been said about this. Not even in certain Spanish Aviation forums which are frequently used by IB employees.

Quoting LJ (Reply 1):
IB hasn´t able to grow their presence in PTY.

This has a lot to do with the lack of long haul aircraft IB has been suffering for quite some time now. The poor fleet planning is evident.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 2):
This is not true....the PTY flight used to be a triangle with GUA but is now dedicated

This is correct. GUA is now flown with a stop in SAL on the way back to Europe while PTY has dedicated flights since late 2010. They had 3 flights initially which were later increased to 4 and then to the current 5. IB has said they intend to have daily flights, but that can't be done right now.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 2):
Remember IB is also right next door in SJO too so the flights do tend to cannabalize each other

True. IB flies daily between MAD and SJO and most of these services are operated with A346s.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 7):
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 4):
IB is slowly expanding into Africa, do you think IB will operate flights to the Far East in the long-term?

China and Japan.

Even though I'd really love to see this, I doubt it will happen. IAG doesnt seem interested in seeing IB opening routes to the far east. They prefer to put pax flying between Spain and those destinations in BA flights via LHR.

Quoting MFC (Reply 8):
Every purser will have an iPad with all the details of the flight in order to have everything under control and help the passengers.
Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 9):
Quoting MFC (Reply 8):
Every purser will have an iPad with all the details of the flight in order to have everything under control and help the passengers.

A good example of an initiative that has been very successful at BA being transferred across to Iberia.


Don't know when it was introduced at BA. In Iberia's case, the "Proyecto IBPad" was introduced back in January 2011, although it had only been used by ground personnel until now.

http://megustavolar.iberia.com/2011/...gestion-de-la-atencion-al-cliente/

http://www.cincodias.com/articulo/em...icio-barajas/20110119cdscdiemp_17/

Since last month, however, the Ipad has been introduced among cabin crews, and about 640 pursers are using them thanks to the new application developed by Capgemini for Iberia. (Article in Spanish, sorry...)

http://www.es.capgemini.com/recursos...ad-movilidad-para-los-sobrecargos/

Here's an interesting video about this (again, only in Spanish)...

http://youtu.be/h9CevTrDd6Q

And here's another video showing us the "IBPad" application which has been in use by ground staff since last year (in English!!!).

http://youtu.be/PT8Omy8Doro

These small "Quick service points" seem interesting too (in English!!!).

http://youtu.be/i7q1IjOWpRo

The restructuring plan announced by IAG is expected to be known next month. This will bring very important changes for Iberia, and the biggest challenge for the airline will be the BIG job cuts that will take place. People here is already talking about massive layoffs which could affect "several thousand employees". Sounds terrible...
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Rafabozzolla
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:49 am

Quoting MFC (Reply 8):
A330 and A346 fleet will get PTV's in all classes and a new J class will be installed.
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11):
That's good to hear, their hard product really lets them down at the moment as it's so far behind other airlines.

At least in J, IB has one of the best hard products around. Full lie-flat, all forward facing 2-2-2, good food and wine, hard to beat. They could improve on bigger screens and surely on their cabin crew.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 14):
Also it is quite possible that IAG grows through BA London to Latin America. While IB's share might become smaller, BA's share might grow.

You're forgetting the difficult part... Where would slots come from?
 
peanuts
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:12 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 1):
I don´t understand that IB doesn´t seem to be very aggressive towards Skyteam

Also: if we combine the AF and KLM figures from that table, they are way bigger than IB to Latin America. Why is CAPA keeping the stats for AF and KL separate? Is it one company or is it not?
 
LJ
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:30 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 18):
Also: if we combine the AF and KLM figures from that table, they are way bigger than IB to Latin America. Why is CAPA keeping the stats for AF and KL separate? Is it one company or is it not?

It's not. Two different operating licences and thwo different companies (the same reason why IB and BA are listed separately). Only thing is they have the same holding company (the airline AF/KL doesn't exist).
 
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SQ773
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:38 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 5):

I could not agree more.

Call me pesimistic, but IB will not be a number one choice unless their mentality changes from A to Z. Just buy more new metal, just rebrand the company, just bla bla bla.... I think IAG knows that perfecly. I still wonder why BA chose IB for such a venture, its really hard to understand to me.

As far as on board service is concerned ( and from my point of view this is the weakest point in IB ), they have never search for excellence, the famous extra mile. Its not in the spanish ADN. Sorry to say, but if you want to be a leader carrier with a premium service, you have to have this touch of obsession for the quality, for the things done right. Giving the pursers iPads, doing trainings for customer service, etc that is absolutely peanuts. IB needs a complete and radical change.

Have you ever seen a purser or a flight attendatnt with a perfect use of English? Can we say that the service on board on intercon flights is proactively helpful and servant ? I know it may sound childish, but I could go on asking questions...and many of us know the answer.

Whenever you take a LAN flight , you see that the product and service is far far beyond that of IB, same goes with AV, same goes with TAM, same goes with the rest of european companies ( may be with the exception of AZ ). And not to mention BA, whose service on board is many times flawless.

Lets see what happens. But the spanish people have never search for quality, we complain but we rarely do things to improve what bother us. Its in our culture. And IB is nothing but a mirror of our culture.
 
jumpjets
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:13 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 14):
Also it is quite possible that IAG grows through BA London to Latin America. While IB's share might become smaller, BA's share might grow.

I think longer term the reverse will prove to be true. Willie Walsh has made it clear that IAG growth is expected to come more from MAD because of the constraints at LHR - though he first said that before the BD acquisition came along, so that will alter the growth dynamics.

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 15):
They need to adopt a long-haul fleet strategy quickly, the A330-300 is fine, but cannot replace the need for a longer-term solution. One can only imagine IAG has been evaluating this very carefully.

Again when the A330 acquisition was announced I believe Willie said this was just the first stage in a larger more co-ordinated BA/IB fleet renewal. I would love to think that this might mean a few A380s for IB on their denser LATAM routes and maybe BA getting some A350s instead of even more B777s. I can but wish...
 
jfk777
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:42 pm

IB is dealing with stronger airlines groups in Latin America with LATAM and AV/Taca but not greater flights to Spain by those airlines. Most Latin airlines fly once daily to Madrid from their own hub, LAN flies from the main city in each country they have an airline each( not yet BOG). IB still has the upper hand in some market like Caracas and Buenos Aires as the local airline is in dire straits or out of biz.

Iberia's biggest threat is from 777 and A340 flying from CDG and FRA in northern Europe, AF & LH fly directly to many of the same cities IB flies to with plans to expand.
 
Viscount724
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 4):
IB is slowly expanding into Africa

Where have they been expanding in Africa? The only recent change I can think of related to Africa was dropping JNB. What routes have they added?
 
Talaier
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:32 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):

Luanda last year, Nouakchott and Accra fro May/June this year. They also added more frequencies to Malabo and added Rabat, Oran and Argel started in it around 2010.
 
mfc
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:59 pm

It was a pity they dropped JNB. I always heard the loads were very good, but maybe yields weren't. Do you think they would re-open the route? Maybe with the new A330s? Or that plane is not suitable given hot and high restrictions?
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peanuts
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 19):
Two different operating licences and thwo different companies

Right. God forbid we have to combine two companies in order to find some real synergies and efficiencies...  
 
PDPsol
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:44 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 26):
Right. God forbid we have to combine two companies in order to find some real synergies and efficiencies...

Right, well this is precisely the point we have been making. One can only imagine the current difficult operating environment will make full integration and coordination tantalizingly attractive to IAG. Regulations, operating licenses, labor unions, cultural issues, etc. are all barriers to a full merger, of the kind we have seen here in the United States. Nonetheless, it appears BA/IB, AF/KL and LH are either too afraid or too risk averse to integrate operations in total way.

The carriers could even continue using their 'marketing brands' but integrate everything else.

IB would experience a massive change in its operations and prepare itself for greater competition in its core markets to Latin America.

What is clear is that the current status quo will not serve IB well in the future. Europe-LATAM is growing and changing quickly and IB must adapt, or fade into irrelevance.
 
mfc
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 20):
Have you ever seen a purser or a flight attendatnt with a perfect use of English?

Yes, I have, and many times and not only English, I have seen Iberia's FAs who speak French or German fluently.
So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
 
jfk777
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:00 pm

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 12):
IAG knows exactly what the strengths and limitations are at its IB subsidiary:

i) They know regional carriers such as AV, AM-Transportes Aereos Meridionais (Brazil)">JJ, LA and AM are enhancing route frequencies and product quality to Europe
ii) They know European competitors like AF and LH are very, very interested in taking advantage of the growing market to LATAM
iii) They know Middle East 'network' carriers like EK, TK and QR wish to exploit untapped demand to Asia from LATAM.
Quoting Talaier (Reply 13):
As to Asia, I wouldn't expect anything until 2014, unless JAL or Cathay start flying before.

Its time OneWorld do some real alliance work together, Cathay flying to Madrid would be great to connect to IB's Madrid hub. JAL's 787 would be great too for a NRT to MAD flight. Iberia flying to Hong Kong with an A340-600 would be soemthing worth launching.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 20):
Call me pesimistic, but IB will not be a number one choice unless their mentality changes from A to Z. Just buy more new metal, just rebrand the company, just bla bla bla.... I think IAG knows that perfecly. I still wonder why BA chose IB for such a venture, its really hard to understand to me.


BA tried to merge with KLM and Swiss but both found other merger partners. KLM and BA would have been great since KLM flew to many of the same cities and the connecting traffic could have been over Amsterdam. Swiss got pissed because BA was after more LHR slots. IB was the last airline worth merging with.
 
IBERIA747
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:11 pm

Quoting MFC (Reply 28):
Quoting SQ773 (Reply 20):
Have you ever seen a purser or a flight attendatnt with a perfect use of English?

Yes, I have, and many times and not only English, I have seen Iberia's FAs who speak French or German fluently.

Same here, several times, and not only English, French or German, but also Portuguese, Italian and Hebrew, among others.

Quoting Talaier (Reply 24):
Luanda last year, Nouakchott and Accra fro May/June this year. They also added more frequencies to Malabo and added Rabat, Oran and Argel started in it around 2010.

I guess they have increased frequencies to Lagos as well.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 20):
As far as on board service is concerned ( and from my point of view this is the weakest point in IB ), they have never search for excellence, the famous extra mile.

While I may agree with you about this being their weakest point, my experiences with them (i have dozens along more than 3 decades) have never been worse than what I have experienced with other "prestigious" airlines. In fact, I have had many pleasant flights with them and have ended up becoming friends with cabin crew members at the end of the flight. On one ocasion, I was invited by the Captain to visit the cockpit during a MAD-UIO flight onboard an A343. I had never met the guy before and I didn't know anyone onboard, but a nice chat with the cabin crew members was enough, and was a HUGE courtesy, because I didn't even ask for it and was entirely their idea.

I could keep talking about other times when IB staff in both the ground and the air have gone the "extra mile" you refer to, but some people will end up thinking I work for Iberia... I don't, and my job has nothing to do with airlines.

I think the "extra mile" has more to do with the good interaction between two people (pax/crew), than with a common practice among the cabin crew members of a given airline.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 20):
Whenever you take a LAN flight , you see that the product and service is far far beyond that of IB

Well...I haven't tried LAN many times, but when I did, I found them just OK, normal. The personal IFE on board the A343 was quite nice, but other than that, they were certainly nothing extraordinary. They just did their job the same way it's normally done in most airlines, and that was it.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 20):
same goes with AV,

Never flown AV so I cant speak for myself.
A very close friend of mine who works for a big Spanish company flies MAD-BOG.MAD about once every month and he always tells me that the only real difference he sees between AV and IB in economy class is the personal IFE. About inflight service itself, he always says the same: "there are nice and not so nice crew members onboard, as in most airlines". When asked about Business Class, he prefers Iberia hands down.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 20):
same goes with TAM

Never tried them, and don't know if I will ever have the chance. One of my sisters, OTOH, who works on International affairs, does travel a lot, and has been travelling quite ofen to Brasilia lately (connecting in GRU). She says that she likes TAM, but that she just finds them as good or bad as every other airline she's flown. She loves to fly MAD-IAD-MAD on Aer Lingus, though, and is very disappointed about the cancellation of that route.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 20):
same goes with the rest of european companies ( may be with the exception of AZ ).

I've flown with Air France, British Airways, TAP, and used to fly a lot with KLM in the past on both short and long haul sectors, and while BA has been a bit better, I've never seen any of them as "excellent". In fact, it was a common thing to see very rude crew members on my KLM flights, mainly among the female FAs and more often on long haul sectors.

You may be surprised, but the european airline have I have enjoyed the most is Easyjet. I like their cheerful young cabin crews and their relaxed style to do things. Besides, I don't have a problem with BoB service. Heck, I have even tried Ryanair several times and Im still waiting to have a bad flight with them. There are other things they can be criticized for, though.

I also had good experiences with Spanair when they were around, despite the criminal seat pitch on their A320s and A321s.

About AZ, I have never tried them, and I'm aware of the "very bad press" they've been getting through the years. However, they seem to be improving in every aspect. Not only inflight service.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 20):
And not to mention BA, whose service on board is many times flawless.

As mentioned above, I have flown BA and they were good, adequate, but nothing to write home about.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 20):
the spanish people have never search for quality, we complain but we rarely do things to improve what bother us. Its in our culture.

There are exceptions, as with everything else in this life. However, this can be applied to a lot of things in our country, unfortunately. Rudeness is also part of the Spanish culture, and it seems as if it was mandatory here in Madrid.
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IBERIA747
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:23 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 29):
JAL's 787 would be great too for a NRT to MAD flight.

JAL have mentioned their interest in starting NRT-MAD flights as soon as they get more 787s.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 29):
Cathay flying to Madrid would be great to connect to IB's Madrid hub.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 29):
Iberia flying to Hong Kong with an A340-600 would be soemthing worth launching.

As much as I'd love to see it, with both carriers operating the same route so soon, wouldn't this be overkill?.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 29):
IB was the last airline worth merging with.

You talk as if this was something that was decided overnight. You seem to forget that BA became an IB sharholder almost since the moment IB was privatised, and that they had increased their share after a few years.

IB was a BA shareholder at the same time, and they increased their participation before the "so called" merger.

The IB-BA/BA-IB union is something that had been expected for years. I never liked the idea, though... I'd have much preferred seeing IB tying up with Lufthansa.

[Edited 2012-08-26 07:25:47]
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jfk777
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 31):
You talk as if this was something that was decided overnight. You seem to forget that BA became an IB sharholder almost since the moment IB was privatised, and that they had increased their share after a few years.

IB was a BA shareholder at the same time, and they increased their participation before the "so called" merger.

The IB-BA/BA-IB union is something that had been expected for years. I never liked the idea, though... I'd have much preferred seeing IB tying up with Lufthansa.

Whatever time line the IB-BA merger took KLM was the first bride BA proposed to. The number of Quality medium sized airlines in Europe is limited. Alitalia and Olympic were available, SAS is still looking too. Sabena died a bloodly death. BA merged with IB because they were the last two left, AF would have been more natural for IB since Spain and France have similar cultures.
 
incitatus
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 17):
You're forgetting the difficult part... Where would slots come from?

Arrival and departure time bands for Latin America have possibilities that do not overlap with the North Atlantic. Then there is the BMI trove that will get BA additional flexibility.
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SQ773
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 30):
Quoting MFC (Reply 28):

Well, I have never seen any, in particular any purser with fluent and perfect use of other language rather than Spanish. Sorry.

IBERIA 747, reading your post, it seems that little has to be improved in IB. Okay, its your opinion and it deserves all my respects.

By the way, the "extra mile " is something that you do without the others expecting you to do it, is something about oneself, rather than the good interaction between two people. Take some asian and some european carrier and you will notice .

Thanks God I have the chance to travel quite frequently and at this stage, I can afirm out loud that IB has a looong way ahead if it wants to become competitive. And yes, whenever you ask someone about their experience on a long haul flights, the answer is always the same. At least with people who have travelled on other companies and can compare.
 
Talaier
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 33):

LHR has a night curfew that limits the amount of redeyes that can be flown. And there is already a large amount of flights to Asia and OZ leaving between 9 and 11pm
 
IBERIA747
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:10 pm

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 34):
Sorry.

No need to apologize. It's what you've seen and what you've experienced, isn't it? Just as I have told what I've seen. The last time was onboard EC-GUQ while flying IB6342 GUA-SAL-MAD. The two FAs in charge of the area where I was seated (34A) not only had excellent command of English, but one of them could also speak Hebrew fluently and spent time chatting with the big group of Israeli passengers that was onboard.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 34):
IBERIA 747, reading your post, it seems that little has to be improved in IB.

I have never said that. In fact, I only talked about a positive experience onboard a MAD-UIO flight and said I had seen IB staff being proactive other times and going the "extra mile" that you mention...that's all.

I am aware that many things have to be improved in Iberia and that they not only need to make their whole product better, but consistent as well, and that is certainly not achieved only by giving Ipads to pursers or buying new aircraft. What I've said, and I stand by my statement, is that I have flown with many other airlines and that my experiences with them have not been spectacular, and that the kind of treatment I have recieved while using Iberia has not been worse than what I've experienced on other carriers.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 34):
By the way, the "extra mile " is something that you do without the others expecting you to do it, is something about oneself

Also referred to as "being proactive", among other terms. I guess we agree on the definition.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 34):
rather than the good interaction between two people.

It plays a big part.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 34):
Take some asian and some european carrier and you will notice .

I admit I have never flown on an Asian carrier and I'd love to, but I have flown with several European carriers and I have found them to be pretty much at the same level, with decent levels of service. If anything, I would put Iberia at the far bottom of the list when comparing the seat pitch on their A320s and A319s with what their competitors offer. What IB passengers have to endure when flying on those sardine cans is unacceptable. And of course, the urgent need to update their long haul cabins in economy is something we are pretty aware of.
Their BoB menu on short haul sectors should also offer better options at more reasonable prices. Even Ryanair and Easyjet have a much better BoB menu.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 34):
At least with people who have travelled on other companies and can compare.

Been there, done that.

Unless you haven't read my previous reply completely...

[Edited 2012-08-26 15:06:19]
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usdcaguy
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:51 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 32):
AF would have been more natural for IB since Spain and France have similar cultures.

It's not always about culture. AF needs someone profitable and conservative (KL? BA?) to pick up its bar tab once in a while. Also, the Spanish are not that into the French, who themselves are not the lovers of Spain that the British seem to be. In recent years, more ties have been made between France and Portugal due to the sizable Portuguese diaspora in France, so I'm a little surprised AF/KL has not been more interested in TP or at least tried to get it into SkyTeam.

In the meantime, why isn't this thread about UX? It only serves a handful of cities (CCS/LIM/VVI/SSA/EZE) in Latin America, and I don't really see it growing much. Does it intend to expand? The only business markets in that group are EZE, CCS and to a limited extent LIM. Perhaps that really is another thread, but it seems to me IB is years ahead and will likely stay that way given IAG's actions to render it profitable.
 
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:43 am

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 37):

In the meantime, why isn't this thread about UX? It only serves a handful of cities (CCS/LIM/VVI/SSA/EZE) in Latin America, and I don't really see it growing much. Does it intend to expand? The only business markets in that group are EZE, CCS and to a limited extent LIM. Perhaps that really is another thread, but it seems to me IB is years ahead and will likely stay that way given IAG's actions to render it profitable.

IB is the market leader and is to be challenged. UX has increased their presence over time and is now able to compete with IB in some of the most important markets. Moreover UX is starting to get into the Europe - Latin America market with offering feeder service from more and more destinations in NW Europe (in W12 they'll introduce BRU). Thus in essence UX is tapping more and more in the traditional Europe - Latin America market where IB (still) dominates. However MAD cannot have two big intercontinental players. Moreover, I doubt that the strategy of Skyteam foresees UX to fly to all Latin American destinations. After all, it shouldn't compete too much with AF, KL or AZ.
 
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:23 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 37):
so I'm a little surprised AF/KL has not been more interested in TP or at least tried to get it into SkyTeam.

TAP into AF/KLM would be a great merger for AF to compete to Brazil and expansion for SkyTeam.
 
incitatus
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting Talaier (Reply 35):
LHR has a night curfew that limits the amount of redeyes that can be flown. And there is already a large amount of flights to Asia and OZ leaving between 9 and 11pm

Have you looked at what slots BD had? Take a look and then come back to tell whether it can be done. Not all of Latin America should be served with double overnights.

Then there is always LGW to balance with LHR. BA has several destinations in Latin America served from LGW.

If BA wants to expand in Latin America, it has the assets.
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r2rho
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:31 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Thread starter):
How will IB prepare for the increasing competition that it will soon face on its routes between MAD and Latin America?
Quoting PDPsol (Reply 27):
What is clear is that the current status quo will not serve IB well in the future. Europe-LATAM is growing and changing quickly and IB must adapt, or fade into irrelevance.

Indeed the situation is changing, and IB cannot sit on its current comfortable position because LatAm carriers are catching up very fast and IB will be challenged by them head-on.

The improvement of their Y product is certainly a step in the right direction. The business product, from what I've been told, already is and has been quite good and competitive.

But what I'm more worried about is the fleet strategy (or lack thereof). Already, some A343's have been retired without replacement. The A333's coming in next year will merely replace A343's one-to-one, they are not for growth. In the best case, IB long-haul fleet count will remain constant in the foreseeable mid-term. But the fleet is stretched thin already, and the impression we get is that to open new routes they have to sacrifice others. This is worrying because there are many secondary LatAm destinations lacking service to Europe where IB could expand to successfully in the coming years, that would provide high yields and a competitive advantage versus their current and future competitors on the trunk routes. IMO that is the area where IB could and should grow in the future, alas, according to their fleet strategy none of that can happen.

Sure, we can all hope for a future large IAG long-haul aircraft order, but none of those would start to arrive before 2017, and IB needs to react in the next 2-3 years if it does not want to lose its edge.
 
airbazar
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:14 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 3):
IB has an advantage in Madrid that it is well located geographically in Europe for connections.

True but you could say the same about Europe to Africa and where is IB's African network? You could say the same about Latin America and Asia and where is IB's Asian network. Historically IB has not been able to hold its ground against foreign competition on International markets and unless something changes significantly it shouldn't come as a huge surprise if IB loses market share in the TATL market. As it is, the recently started BCN-GRU route is being canned, a clear sign that they can't compete with SQ on the route.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:46 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 29):
Its time OneWorld do some real alliance work together, Cathay flying to Madrid would be great to connect to IB's Madrid hub. JAL's 787 would be great too for a NRT to MAD flight. Iberia flying to Hong Kong with an A340-600 would be soemthing worth launching.

HKG-MAD would be hub-to-hub for the sake of it. Cathay even chose to fly to a whole slew of destinations in Europe with no onward feed instead of opening up MAD and TXL.

Ironically it's actually SkyTeam (KE) and StarAlliance (TG/CA) that links MAD to the Far East.
 
ussherd
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 4):
What other large markets in Latin America do you see IB expanding into?

I haven't seen any direct answer to SCL767's question, other than PDPsol's suggestion that IB should consider serving second tier Brazillian cities such as Brasilia and Belo Horisonte.

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 15):
Agreed, especially Brasil. Brasil is the most important market and IB has dropped the ball in opening large 'secondary' cities such as CNF or BSB to MAD.

What Latin American cities could be expected to support a non-stop flight to MAD with a reasonable frequency? This is pure speculation, but would any or the following be viable:

MAD-GDL
MAD-MTY
MAD-MDE
MAD-MAR
MAD-AQP
MAD-COR (IB tried, but couldn't make it work)
MAD-VVI
MAD-BSB
MAD-CNF
MAD-CWB
Cada loco con su tema...
 
mfc
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting ussherd (Reply 44):

Don't forget they also tried FOR and REC with no success. I guess that the main problem with that destinations is filling the front of the plane.
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PDPsol
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting MFC (Reply 45):
Don't forget they also tried FOR and REC with no success. I guess that the main problem with that destinations is filling the front of the plane.

The markets in Brasil that USSHERD lists [CNF, BSB and CWB] are rather different than the FOR and REC in that they have substantial O&D in their own right. These are important cities with substantial business and government-related markets. IB could do rather well linking one of these markets directly to MAD.

In addition, MTY in Mexico could indeed be rather interesting for IB.

Of course, enhancing quality, frequencies and connections for the core long-haul IB markets in Latin America should always be a focus. This is where the 'rubber meets the road' and IB should be top of mind for customers traveling to and from major markets such as GRU, GIG, EZE, MEX, BOG and LIM. This is where LA, TAM, AV, the Europeans, and even now the EK, QR and TK's of the world are focused on.

IB needs to get creative, enhance service, improve efficiency and perhaps most importantly, work with BA as one. As mentioned, IAG knows this and sees the writing on the wall.
 
SKY1
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Thread starter):
Airline groups such as Aeroméxico, AviancaTaca and LATAM Airlines have new long-haul a/c on order and will increase flights to Europe and also into IB's hub at MAD

It's curious many people often forget Air Europa which is going to have a new, improved and more competitive long-haul fleet than Iberia. While IB is waiting to have an A333 fleet, the A332's in UX have its days on the countdown as they will be replaced by the B788. I bet when they get their new 787's will lauch new destinations such as SCL, more Brazilian airports other than SSA and a deeper cooperation with both, AM and DL for the North American market.

But it's true IB right now still is having more seats to offer than their competitors. Anyway IB is nowadays paying a mediocre long-term planning about long-haul fleet purchasing policy, competitors are ordering a brand-new generation fuel-efficiency airliners and it could be key if oil prices continue on the same bull tendency.
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Talaier
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:19 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 42):

Africa is a priority as of now and actually the only new international destinations announced this year have been to African cities, operated with 319s that have an enhanced J product (not lie flat, but good enough to sleep through)

Quoting MFC (Reply 45):

My understanding was that they were shed off due to lack of planes and the Brazilian/Spanish customs conflict.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 40):

Generally speaking red eyes are the best yielding flights from Europe into deep South American destinations. I've heard too often of executives flying into GRU for instance just for the day on double red eyes.

LGW-LHR connections are as messy as a transfer can get and, if they are flown out of LGW, it's a sign that they are low on connecting traffic.

But yes, you are right it can be done, but I'm not too convinced as to what extent this comes into IAGs strategy.
 
IBERIA747
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RE: IB Needs To Prepare For More Long-Haul Competition

Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:03 am

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 47):
many people often forget Air Europa which is going to have a new, improved and more competitive long-haul fleet than Iberia. While IB is waiting to have an A333 fleet, the A332's in UX have its days on the countdown as they will be replaced by the B788. I bet when they get their new 787's will lauch new destinations such as SCL, more Brazilian airports other than SSA and a deeper cooperation with both, AM and DL for the North American market.

New? Yes. Improved?, of course. More competitive? I'd add more efficient,...but yes, it's definitely a big step forward and very good news for Air Europa.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 47):
the A332's in UX have its days on the countdown as they will be replaced by the B788.

The first 788 for Air Europa will arrive in 2016.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 47):
I bet when they get their new 787's will lauch new destinations such as SCL, more Brazilian airports other than SSA and a deeper cooperation with both, AM and DL for the North American market.

In case they are planning to phase out their A332s completely, then it would be difficult to carry out the ambitious expansion you're talking about.

They have 7 A332s (apparently looking for an additional 2nd hand bird), and have ordered 8 787s, so If those 787s are only intended to replace the 332s one by one then no growth will be achieved.

Anyway, going back to IB, the arrival of the A330-300s is supposed to be a temporary solution while IAG decides on a joint order for both BA and IB, but that remains to be seen.

Let's see first if Iberia makes it to 2015 alive...
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