SCL767
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LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:15 pm

Competition is set to increase dramatically between AviancaTaca and LATAM at LIM in the coming months. AviancaTaca plans to increase domestic flights from LIM while LATAM plans to increase frequencies on domestic and international routes from its hub at LIM. LATAM is planning an "international push" from LIM very soon. LATAM's subsidiary LAN Perú currently dominates the Peruvian domestic market with a market-share of 62 percent. LATAM currently dominates the Peruvian international market with a market-share of 50 percent.
Peru's market grows rapidly as TACA builds domestic share and LAN continues international push
 
2travel2know2
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:01 pm

IMHO sooner or later, that intensified competition @ LIM will most likely have an effect in both LATAM and AV/TA LIM operations.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
SCL767
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 1):
IMHO sooner or later, that intensified competition @ LIM will most likely have an effect in both LATAM and AV/TA LIM operations.

Yes, LIM needs to expand the airport rapidly to cope with the increase in traffic. Unlike AV-TA, LAN and TAM are increasing capacity on routes via LIM using widebody a/c and LAN already uses widebody a/c on certain regional routes. Also, LATAM expects that certain Peruvian carrier(s) will collapse in the future.
 
RAGAZZO777
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:44 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Thread starter):
Competition is set to increase dramatically between AviancaTaca and LATAM at LIM in the coming months.

This doesn't come as a surprise. Both LAN and TACA have been fighting tooth and nail at LIM for a number of years now, but clearly LAN has the upper hand.


.

Quoting SCL767 (Thread starter):
LATAM is planning an "international push" from LIM very soon.

Hopefully that means new long-haul destinations from LIM. Rumour has it that LAN Perú will begin operating the 787 from next year so we'll have to wait and see.


.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 2):
LIM needs to expand the airport rapidly to cope with the increase in traffic.

   The current terminal is definitely not large enough for the operations it handles today.
JESÚS, TE AMO !!
 
777jaah
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:44 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 2):
Unlike AV-TA, LAN and TAM are increasing capacity on routes via LIM

Won't AV transfer some 330s to TA and will be based in LIM??
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
SCL767
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 3):
This doesn't come as a surprise. Both LAN and TACA have been fighting tooth and nail at LIM for a number of years now, but clearly LAN has the upper hand.

LAN has been steadily growing its operations at LIM for over a decade and has launched routes to new destinations in North America and the Caribbean over the past few years. For example, LIM-CUN, LIM-HAV, LIM-MEX, LIM-PUJ, LIM-SFO, etc. LAN will soon operate the LIM-MIA route 17x weekly (B763), LIM-LAX increases to 13x weekly, LIM-JFK increases to 11x weekly, the LIM-SCL route operates 8x daily and will increase to 9x daily, LIM-LPB-VVI will get a second daily frequency, TAM will launch GIG-LIM, etc. LAN has also been building up its domestic network for over a decade and will increase frequency on domestic routes, i.e. LIM-AQP, LIM-CUZ, LIM-IQT, LIM-JUL, LIM-PCL, LIM-PIU, etc.
 
jfk777
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 3):
This doesn't come as a surprise. Both LAN and TACA have been fighting tooth and nail at LIM for a number of years now, but clearly LAN has the upper hand.

Taca is at a disadvantage since it only flies A320's, no nonstop to LAX, JFK, MAD and bare able to get to Miami.
 
SCL767
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 6):
Taca is at a disadvantage since it only flies A320's, no nonstop to LAX, JFK, MAD and bare able to get to Miami.

Similar to their operations in Ecuador...The LIM-MIA route has experienced robust growth over the past couple of years. LAN used to operate the LIM-MIA route 9x weekly just two years ago and it now operates 2x daily and will soon increase to 17x weekly utilizing the B763. Thus, LA/AA will soon offer 31 weekly non-stop flights on the LIM-MIA route.

[Edited 2012-08-28 10:47:14]
 
jfk777
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:54 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 7):
Similar to their operations in Ecuador...The LIM-MIA route has experienced robust growth over the past couple of years. LAN used to operate the LIM-MIA route 9x weekly just two years ago and it now operates 2x daily and will soon increase to 17x weekly utilizing the B763. Thus, LA/AA will soon offer 31 weekly non-stop flights on the LIM-MIA route

LAN is now in a position to turn Lima into GRU west, Sao Paulo on South Americas west coast. The 787 will open up Sydney and AKL, more North America and more Europe beyond Spain. May be a BA 777 is in LIM's future.
 
SCL767
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 8):
The 787 will open up Sydney and AKL,

This is a long-term plan; perhaps in the next 4 years.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 8):
more North America and more Europe beyond Spain. May be a BA 777 is in LIM's future.

LAN is currently focused on the U.S. and Mexican markets and will increase flights into these markets and open new destinations using the B-767-316ERs. Also, routes such as LIM-CUN and LIM-PUJ will both increase to twice daily services respectively. LAN has also evaluated launching LIM-LHR with the B-787...
 
2travel2know2
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 4):
Won't AV transfer some 330s to TA and will be based in LIM??

I thought that 2 A330 were going to start LIM-MIA-SAL-LAX-SAL-MIA-LIM rotations as soon as AV-TA officially became one.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 8):
LAN is now in a position to turn Lima into GRU west, Sao Paulo on South Americas west coast.

Would that mean that for LATAM SCL will be to LIM what EZE is to GRU?
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
SCL767
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:22 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 10):
Would that mean that for LATAM SCL will be to LIM what EZE is to GRU?

SCL is also getting more frequencies starting next month. The SCL-MIA route increases to 2x daily, SCL-PUJ-MIA and SCL-CUN-MIA will increase to twice weekly. In January and February, LAN will operate the SCL-MIA route up to 3x daily, SCL-LAX 3x weekly, the SCL-IPC route will operate up to 2x daily, the SCL-MCO route will operate up to twice weekly, the SCL-PUJ-MIA route will operate 3x weekly, the SCL-CUN-MIA route will operate up to 5x weekly! Connections to BUE, COR, GRU, MDZ, MVD and domestic destinations in Chile will be available. LAN will also launch daily flights to its newest domestic destination, MHC.
 
PDPsol
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 10):
I thought that 2 A330 were going to start LIM-MIA-SAL-LAX-SAL-MIA-LIM rotations as soon as AV-TA officially became one.
Quoting 777jaah (Reply 4):
Won't AV transfer some 330s to TA and will be based in LIM??

Also, of course, there is tremendous potential for AV-TA to cooperate more closely with its partner, UA, just as CM does in PTY. UA currently operates IAH-LIM, as well as EWR-LIM and adding IAD-LIM could give UA better access to important markets it does not currently serve. AV-TA should do well at LIM.

LA has accomplished a lot with LIM and there is no reason why growth should not continue with LATAM and its resources. Important alliance partners, including AA, IB, BA, and perhaps even CX, must surely view the LIM market with great interest. LA should also do well at LIM.

LIM has already made important progress in preparing for the long-term, with a new center-field mega-terminal and second runway in development. LIM was privatized over a decade ago and its owner-consortium, controlled by FRA, is very interested in creating a regional hub, with extensive network capabilities throughout the continent.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:17 am

There is indeed talk of TA launching IQT and PCL from LIM, plus enhancing the existing destionations' frequency. LAN's international offensive will be massive too, but i guess it will be felt more when the 787s start rolling in at a faster pace. IAD, YYZ, BCN, LHR are all potential new destinations from LIM for LAN. Returning to BSB and CTG must also be in consideration. Also, the AVTA group do have a plan to base A330s in LIM, increasing capacity, i'm sure more short haul routes will be coming too. The unsuccessful LIM-BSB service was changed to BOG and has been doing well.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 10):

I thought that 2 A330 were going to start LIM-MIA-SAL-LAX-SAL-MIA-LIM rotations as soon as AV-TA officially became one.

A330s in SAL? I don't know.

Rumour was that the would be start flying LIM-MIA-LIM-EZE-LIM and eventually LIM-MAD.
 
SCL767
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:01 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 13):
LAN's international offensive will be massive too, but i guess it will be felt more when the 787s start rolling in at a faster pace.

LAN will transfer 3 new B-767-316ERs over to LAN Perú starting next month. LATAM already dominates the Peruvian international market and LAN is simply increasing frequencies on routes with high demand. For example, LAN will initially add up to 14 new weekly frequencies on routes to North America with the B-767-316ERs and will increase capacity on certain routes. Certain routes such as LIM-GRU will operate solely with widebody a/c. Routes such as LIM-EZE, LIM-GYE, LIM-CCS, etc. already utilize widebody a/c. LAN will launch a second daily service to LPB/VVI, increase frequency on the LIM-UIO and LIM-SCL routes, and plans to increase frequencies on the LIM-CUN and LIM-PUJ routes later on. TAM will launch the GIG-LIM route in October. LAN Perú will continue to increase frequency on domestic routes as mentioned in reply 5. The first batch of B-787s will be used primarily on regional routes for crew familiarization purposes and then will be deployed on long-haul routes to Europe, i.e. SCL-MAD-FRA and may be utilized to open new routes to Europe via the GRU hub next year.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 13):
Returning to BSB and CTG must also be in consideration.

CTG? Um nope, LATAM is interested in launching new routes, i.e. LIM-ASU, LIM-CWB, etc. and may resume services to MVD.
 
airevents
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:47 am

I hope we finally get a direct flight to Germany! Have the rumours I heard about TACA A330 flights from Lima intensified? They would now probably be launched under the Avianca brand, wouldn´t they? Would be great to see an A330 in TACA colours...
www.airevents.com
 
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RWA380
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:33 am

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 3):
This doesn't come as a surprise. Both LAN and TACA have been fighting tooth and nail at LIM for a number of years now, but clearly LAN has the upper hand.

Even if LIM expands their terminal to accommodate more arrivals and departures, is there room for both carriers to exist?
I too agree that LAN has the upper hand indeed (I still remember looking at old BN timetables and seeing how they used LIM as a big connecting point, with services up to LAX and SFO on DC-8's, and of course the ops all throughout S.A.)
Anyway, guess my question is will there be two only until one beats the other up for good, or can these two co-exist growing LIM?

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 8):
more North America and more Europe beyond Spain. May be a BA 777 is in LIM's future
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):
LAN has also evaluated launching LIM-LHR with the B-787...

So which would you rather fly? the LA 787 or the BA 777? Is there room for 2 carriers, or is this an example of whomever starts the route first gets the upper hand? I think BA would get a fair number of European origin traffic, while LA would most likely capture the S.A. origin traffic, IMHO.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
Summa767
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:50 am

Quoting airevents (Reply 15):
I hope we finally get a direct flight to Germany! Have the rumours I heard about TACA A330 flights from Lima intensified? They would now probably be launched under the Avianca brand, wouldn´t they? Would be great to see an A330 in TACA colours...

I understand that the first A330 should be operated by TACA, based in LIM in November. Flights to EZE have been mentioned given the high demand. It could be that the flight continues to BOG given that AV cannot increase its own non-stop flights beyond the ridiculous 4 weekly frequency- Hence I am not sure about TA serving MIA at the first stage. Maybe when they have a second A330,w hich won't be at least until April next year..
It will take ven longer for long haul flights, and as for FRA, I guess it might not be until 787s are available - unless it is served with a stop in MAD.
AV-TA have 6 further A330s on order, and 15 787s. So we should definitely see a lot more haul, but not just yet.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 13):
A330s in SAL? I don't know.

Have you seen SAL-LAX O/D traffic figures lately?

Quote:
Rumour was that the would be start flying LIM-MIA-LIM-EZE-LIM

Then perhaps a better use for the A330 would be EZE-LIM-MIA-SAL-LAX-SAL-MIA-LIM-EZE?
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
PPVRA
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:20 pm

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 12):
Also, of course, there is tremendous potential for AV-TA to cooperate more closely with its partner, UA, just as CM does in PTY. UA currently operates IAH-LIM, as well as EWR-LIM and adding IAD-LIM could give UA better access to important markets it does not currently serve. AV-TA should do well at LIM.

Makes me wonder about an AV-TACA-UA tie up LATAM style. . .
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
RCS763AV
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 14):
CTG? Um nope, LATAM is interested in launching new routes, i.e. LIM-ASU, LIM-CWB, etc. and may resume services to MVD.

Well there is a tangible market from the southern cone to Cartagena, and they're basically letting CM at PTY and AV BOG have it to themselves. It will be years until LAN is able to offer comparable connectivity between BOG and the rest of the continent as opposed to LIM, and it may not even happen. AVTA could venture into BOG-LIM too, they just launched CLO-LIM and MDE-LIM non-stop flights.

What about BSB? And since they're returning to MVD, theyir interest is not only launching new routes.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 14):
LAN will transfer 3 new B-767-316ERs over to LAN Perú starting next month.

That's great. But I imagine that one more and more 787s start coming in the expansion at LIM will be even bigger. I'm sure LATAM will start serving many markets from Brazil to Lima also.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 19):
Makes me wonder about an AV-TACA-UA tie up LATAM style. . .

Whoa! Going a little fast there...  
Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 18):
Have you seen SAL-LAX O/D traffic figures lately?

They're probably really high, but is it an efficient use of a whole widebody for just one route which can be still served with NBs at greater frequency? Also, an A330 might be a bit of an overkill for the SAL-MIA route. Truth is, the widebodies will be focused in BOG, LIM and Brazil. I think that we will see widebodies in the central american hubs at one point in the future, but in very limited numbers, because of the characteristics of those markets.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 18):
Then perhaps a better use for the A330 would be EZE-LIM-MIA-SAL-LAX-SAL-MIA-LIM-EZE?

No aircraft would possibly be able to complete that itinerary in a 24 hour period. And dedicating two whole A330s to that is certainly a waste of resources when those routes can be more easily distributed between the narrowbodies based at each of the hubs.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 16):
Even if LIM expands their terminal to accommodate more arrivals and departures, is there room for both carriers to exist?

You raise a good point there. Certainly both companies think they can coexist in both LIM and BOG right now, and to a lesser extent Brazil (even though AV Brazil is more of a boutique product as of now). Certainly that is good for competition, because on many routes the continent will soon have it's two strong carriers plus always another brand or a low cost, or both. Time will tell if they decide to retrench to their home markets in the future (TA has found a lot of challenges expanding internationally at LIM, and LAN has been loosing bucketloads of money on their colombian subsidiary, loosing domestic marketshare to Viva and Avianca), so it hasn't been easy to coexist, but if they both profitability in the end, it may work.

[Edited 2012-08-29 08:39:57]
 
RAGAZZO777
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:10 am

Quoting airevents (Reply 15):
I hope we finally get a direct flight to Germany!

Same here ! Personally, I hope that Lufthansa starts non-stop flights between Germany and Peru in due course.  



.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 16):
Even if LIM expands their terminal to accommodate more arrivals and departures, is there room for both carriers to exist?
I too agree that LAN has the upper hand indeed (I still remember looking at old BN timetables and seeing how they used LIM as a big connecting point, with services up to LAX and SFO on DC-8's, and of course the ops all throughout S.A.)
Anyway, guess my question is will there be two only until one beats the other up for good, or can these two co-exist growing LIM?

That's a very interesting question. Well, LAN and TACA have co-existed at LIM for over 12 years and the Peruvian economy is doing very well (currently the fastest growing in South America) so I don't see why they couldn't continue to co-exist at the same airport. Besides, TACA serves some destinations that LAN does not and viceversa. Of course, this is commercial aviation we're talking about so anything can change in a mere instant.



.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 16):
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):
LAN has also evaluated launching LIM-LHR with the B-787...

So which would you rather fly? the LA 787 or the BA 777? Is there room for 2 carriers, or is this an example of whomever starts the route first gets the upper hand? I think BA would get a fair number of European origin traffic, while LA would most likely capture the S.A. origin traffic, IMHO.

There's definitely no room for 2 carries on the Lima-London route. If LAN Perú ever launches it, then the chances of seeing BA planes at LIM would reduce to zero.

In other LIM-related news, it's been leaked that Korean Air has finally applied with the Peruvian DGAC for permission to commence passenger service between Seoul-Incheon and Lima via a North American point.
Can't wait to see Korean Air's airliners at LIM !
JESÚS, TE AMO !!
 
SCL767
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:31 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 20):
Well there is a tangible market from the southern cone to Cartagena, and they're basically letting CM at PTY and AV BOG have it to themselves.

LAN does offer connections to CTG via BOG from LIM and SCL. LAN Colombia will eventually become a oneworld affiliate carrier and could offer more connections via BOG from MAD and MIA with AA and IB.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 20):
It will be years until LAN is able to offer comparable connectivity between BOG and the rest of the continent as opposed to LIM, and it may not even happen. AVTA could venture into BOG-LIM too, they just launched CLO-LIM and MDE-LIM non-stop flights.

I think you meant AV could venture into LIM-CTG? Also, isn't BOG expanding? Or is it only expanding for AV?

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 20):
What about BSB? And since they're returning to MVD, theyir interest is not only launching new routes.

LATAM could resume services to BSB from LIM if LATAM wants too. Unlike Colombia, Perú has OS with Brazil. When is LAN Perú resuming LIM-MVD? In regards to MVD, LATAM is currently focused on filling the void left by PU in the Southern Cone and will soon add 3 new daily flights into MVD. Thus, LATAM will operate 7 daily flights into MVD; whereas AV-TA will offer only one daily flight into MVD.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 20):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 14):
LAN will transfer 3 new B-767-316ERs over to LAN Perú starting next month.

That's great. But I imagine that one more and more 787s start coming in the expansion at LIM will be even bigger. I'm sure LATAM will start serving many markets from Brazil to Lima also.

LAN will increase flexibility with its widebody fleet when the 5 new B-767-316ERs and 3 B-787s join the fleet this year. Should LAN deploy the B-787 on the SCL-LIM-LAX route before the SCL-MAD-FRA route; it will free up two additional B-767-316ERs for further expansion. According to the NS 2013 season, LAN plans on deploying the A343s on the SCL-LIM-LAX route daily; thus freeing up two B-767-316ERs.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 22):
LAN does offer connections to CTG via BOG from LIM and SCL. LAN Colombia will eventually become a oneworld affiliate carrier and could offer more connections via BOG from MAD and MIA with AA and IB.

So basically we're talking about five (you forgot GRU) destinations that people will be able to connect to from CTG via BOG on oneworld. CM offers over 50 via PTY and AV over 30 counting their Star partners, at much higher frequency may I add.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 22):
I think you meant AV could venture into LIM-CTG? Also, isn't BOG expanding? Or is it only expanding for AV?

That's what I meant. And yes BOG is expanding, for every operator, so watch the tone, I'm not trying to start a pride fight here. But the truth is it would take years of resources for LAN to reach Avianca's size in Bogotá, even if there was no competition. Or where would they get a fleet of 70 planes all of a sudden to replace Avianca's capacity?

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 22):
LATAM could resume services to BSB from LIM if LATAM wants too. Unlike Colombia, Perú has OS with Brazil.

Ok, why does it always have to come to the freaking open skies argument? I'm just asking if LAN would return to BSB. Geez.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 22):
Thus, LATAM will operate 7 daily flights into MVD; whereas AV-TA will offer only one daily flight into MVD.

Unlike LATAM, AviancaTaca does not have any southern cone hub, so it's only natural that they have a much smaller presence in Montevideo, just like LATAM doesn't serve any central american city, which might start soon from BOG, I guess by the time LAN Colombia stops bleeding money.

I'm sure LATAM will start LIM-MVD in the near future.
 
SCL767
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 23):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 22):
LAN does offer connections to CTG via BOG from LIM and SCL. LAN Colombia will eventually become a oneworld affiliate carrier and could offer more connections via BOG from MAD and MIA with AA and IB.

So basically we're talking about five (you forgot GRU) destinations that people will be able to connect to from CTG via BOG on oneworld. CM offers over 50 via PTY and AV over 30 counting their Star partners, at much higher frequency may I add.

That's great for AV-TA at BOG and CM at PTY. However at LIM, AV-TA will never accomplish what LAN has accomplished over the years. At GRU, AV-TA will never accomplish what TAM has accomplished over the years...

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 23):
That's what I meant. And yes BOG is expanding, for every operator, so watch the tone, I'm not trying to start a pride fight here. But the truth is it would take years of resources for LAN to reach Avianca's size in Bogotá, even if there was no competition. Or where would they get a fleet of 70 planes all of a sudden to replace Avianca's capacity?

LAN doesn't want to reach AV's size at BOG. They simply want to build a new hub offering new connections for their customers.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 23):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 22):
LATAM could resume services to BSB from LIM if LATAM wants too. Unlike Colombia, Perú has OS with Brazil.

Ok, why does it always have to come to the freaking open skies argument? I'm just asking if LAN would return to BSB. Geez.

LIM has OS with many countries and is not slot controlled; which means AV-TA can compete with LATAM on an equal playing field. It will be interesting to see how AV-TA deals with LAN playing on an equal playing field...
 
777jaah
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:04 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 24):
However at LIM, AV-TA will never accomplish what LAN has accomplished over the years. At GRU, AV-TA will never accomplish what TAM has accomplished over the years...

In part I agree with you. I don't really know your real age, but in business, never say never......

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 24):
It will be interesting to see how AV-TA deals with LAN playing on an equal playing field...

Maybe they just want something like this:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 24):
LAN doesn't want to reach AV's size at BOG. They simply want to build a new hub offering new connections for their customers.
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
A388
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:30 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 24):
However at LIM, AV-TA will never accomplish what LAN has accomplished over the years. At GRU, AV-TA will never accomplish what TAM has accomplished over the years...


In part I agree with you. I don't really know your real age, but in business, never say never......


SCL767 thinks he can see into the future when it comes down to LAN. LAN will remain the largest airline in Peru, LAN will be the biggest in Colombia he always indirectly says. Every thing is LAN, LAN, LAN. Fact is that only time will tell us what will happen.


A388
 
RCS763AV
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:12 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 24):
However at LIM, AV-TA will never accomplish what LAN has accomplished over the years. At GRU, AV-TA will never accomplish what TAM has accomplished over the years...

No one is discussing that, and I frankly don't see why it has to come into the table.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 24):
LAN doesn't want to reach AV's size at BOG. They simply want to build a new hub offering new connections for their customers.

I'm sure that's the goal of every one of the smaller companies at each of the hubs, it would be unsustainable to have AV and LA operating 300+ daily flights each at BOG or at LIM.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 24):
LIM has OS with many countries and is not slot controlled; which means AV-TA can compete with LATAM on an equal playing field. It will be interesting to see how AV-TA deals with LAN playing on an equal playing field...

How about LAN enjoying a de facto monopoly on the peruvian domestic market for years and still mantaining a whopping 60%+ market share? Or the de facto monopoly that has been allowed by chilean authorities for years? If that's an equal playing field then i'm in, as LA of ocurse. It's the same as when Alianza Summa was formed, no one could compete with them, a government allowed monopoly. BOG is slot controlled, well so are LHR, SYD, and JFK, and so is GRU. There are multilple competitors who make money at those airports, yet LAN Colombia doesn't seem to be able to do so in Bogotá. The new terminals and the redesign of the airspace that will be functioning by 2014 will end that, yet that hasn't stopped the other players in the market from adding flights as much as you complain it's been a restraint to LAN.

Countries have restrictive agreements everywhere in the world, and Colombia's efforts in ending that have been enormous these past few years (most recently, the agreements with Portugal and Turkey and the revision of the Dominican Republic, Netherlands, Ecuador and Spain). Many of the agreements that remain restrictive are because the other country isn't willing to change them (eg Mexico, Brazil and Argentina). And although colombian skies are restricted, LA is more that able to apply for frequencies just as AV does. Don't the already have 10 weekly frequencies to Spain?

I don't like it when this becomes the "let's all have patience because SCL767 will start trying to piss us all off" thread.

Off of the general discussion, we can argue that

- LAN has a very strong product and it's leadership in the peruvian market is undeniable, where Avianca will always be second fiddle.
- Avianca has a very strong hub in BOG where LAN, in turn, will also always be second fiddle.
- The south american market is becoming a discussion of two airline groups.
- The AviancaTaca grouping will dominate northern south america and to an extent central america while LATAM will dominate the southern cone area which is a generally a larger market, and is thus positioned to remain the leader in the region.
- Almost no one thinks that a single group of airlines dominating every single market in the continent is desirable or good for the region's socio-economic development.
- Formidable airline groups such as Copa Airlines and Azul (GOL don't seem to know where they're going right now in spite of their sheer size) should keep AviancaTaca and LATAM in check for the future.
- The widespread appereance of LCC's will be interesting to see (already have them in Brazil and Colombia), but more freedom of skies and better infrastructure is necessary for it.
- There is certainly plenty of room to grow and a stable economy and a fast growing middle class in the continent which should provide a lot of room for expansion in the years to come.

[Edited 2012-08-31 14:20:55]
 
757MDE
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:35 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 27):
Or the de facto monopoly that has been allowed by chilean authorities for years? If that's an equal playing field then i'm in, as LA of ocurse.

It may be a de facto monopoly, but the truth is Chile is easily the most open market in South America. Foreign airlines can even do domestic flights (Pluna had Santiago - Concepción before they went bust). If LAN continues to be the de facto monopoly is because of market or economic reasons, and not because of the government restricting anything (as flawed as it may be).

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 27):
It's the same as when Alianza Summa was formed, no one could compete with them, a government allowed monopoly.

There was Aero Republica, Aires, Satena, Inter and lots of other small carriers. If "no one" could compete with them they would have lasted more than they did.
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jfk777
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 27):
LAN has a very strong product and it's leadership in the peruvian market is undeniable, where Avianca will always be second fiddle.
- Avianca has a very strong hub in BOG where LAN, in turn, will also always be second fiddle.
- The south american market is becoming a discussion of two airline groups.
- The AviancaTaca grouping will dominate northern south america and to an extent central america while LATAM will dominate the southern cone area which is a generally a larger market, and is thus positioned to remain the leader in the region.
- Almost no one thinks that a single group of airlines dominating every single market in the continent is desirable or good for the region's socio-economic development.
- Formidable airline groups such as Copa Airlines and Azul (GOL don't seem to know where they're going right now in spite of their sheer size) should keep AviancaTaca and LATAM in check for the future.

Avianca / Taca is not the only strong airline in Northern South America, Copa is strong in Colombia & Panama too. Whatever happens to Copa is what will determine who is the dominant airline group. Does AV/ Taca has the vision to merge with Copa ?

LATAM does and very well could, why would they stop in Colombia when they could wedge themselves right in between Avianca and Taca in Panama. Panama has a great airport with two parallel runways with an airline full of 737NG planes capable of flying to almost any city in the Americas. If you think the growth at Lan is over you have your head in the sand, they have the financial resources and will to do one more deal in Latin America.
 
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:12 am

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 28):
There was Aero Republica, Aires, Satena, Inter and lots of other small carriers. If "no one" could compete with them they would have lasted more than they did.

Aires and Satena were never competition to Alianza Summa.. Aerorepública never had over 20% of the domestic market share during those times, not to mention how shoddy they were back then. Summa didn't last long because the financial woes of the two companies combined were too big to sustain and thus ACES shut down and Avianca went into Ch. 11. But they had almost 75% of the market at one point.

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 28):
It may be a de facto monopoly, but the truth is Chile is easily the most open market in South America.
Quoting 757MDE (Reply 28):
If LAN continues to be the de facto monopoly is because of market or economic reasons, and not because of the government restricting anything (as flawed as it may be).

True. But chile became an open skies market after they allowed LAN acquire Ladeco, thus forming a strong national carrier. That gave an upper hand to the chilean airline.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 29):
Avianca / Taca is not the only strong airline in Northern South America, Copa is strong in Colombia & Panama too.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 29):
Whatever happens to Copa is what will determine who is the dominant airline group. Does AV/ Taca has the vision to merge with Copa ?
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 29):
LATAM does and very well could, why would they stop in Colombia when they could wedge themselves right in between Avianca and Taca in Panama.

Ok this theory of Copa merging with another carrier doesn't have anything going to it. Not only would the network of Copa highly overlap with LATAM's and specially AviancaTaca's, their business model has them being on the top five most profitable airlines in the world and their PTY hub keeps growing steadily, without anybody's help. That, and the fact that regulatory authorities would never allow for it, renders any of those mergers ludacris. Avianca+Copa would create a predatory situation between the PTY and BOG hubs which would be business unfriendly, not to mention it would monopolize almost entirely the whole colombian and central american international markets. Not going to be allowed.

LATAM+Copa, I want to see the regulatory authorities of many latin american countries letting LATAM get any bigger if not by organic growth. Not going to happen. That's why LAN started the BOG hub in the first place, to grown on those markets better covered by the "northern" carriers.
 
757MDE
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:22 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 30):
Aires and Satena were never competition to Alianza Summa.. Aerorepública never had over 20% of the domestic market share during those times, not to mention how shoddy they were back then. Summa didn't last long because the financial woes of the two companies combined were too big to sustain and thus ACES shut down and Avianca went into Ch. 11. But they had almost 75% of the market at one point.

Yes I know how it went, but they were not a monopoly either by any definition. And the period when they were the biggest behemoth in Colombian skies did not last long, and not even then were they a monopoly strictly speaking, even if they had a clear dominant position.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 30):
True. But chile became an open skies market after they allowed LAN acquire Ladeco, thus forming a strong national carrier. That gave an upper hand to the chilean airline.

Precisely, market or economic reasons, but government sponsored monopoly? Not really, even less with LAN being private and the whole freedom that market has by law.
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:55 am

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 21):
In other LIM-related news, it's been leaked that Korean Air has finally applied with the Peruvian DGAC for permission to commence passenger service between Seoul-Incheon and Lima via a North American point.
Can't wait to see Korean Air's airliners at LIM !

What North American point, and will KE have fifth freedom rights for this flight, I'd hope so. KE has lots of options.
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:53 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 30):
Ok this theory of Copa merging with another carrier doesn't have anything going to it. Not only would the network of Copa highly overlap with LATAM's and specially AviancaTaca's, their business model has them being on the top five most profitable airlines in the world and their PTY hub keeps growing steadily, without anybody's help. That, and the fact that regulatory authorities would never allow for it, renders any of those mergers ludacris. Avianca+Copa would create a predatory situation between the PTY and BOG hubs which would be business unfriendly, not to mention it would monopolize almost entirely the whole colombian and central american international markets. Not going to be allowed.

LATAM+Copa, I want to see the regulatory authorities of many latin american countries letting LATAM get any bigger if not by organic growth. Not going to happen. That's why LAN started the BOG hub in the first place, to grown on those markets better covered by the "northern" carriers.

IF Lan and Copa merged it would preserve competititon in Central America and create 2 large airlines in Colombia, Ecuador and Peru.

What regulator is going to be against this ? Chile ? They will support a LAN + Copa merger, Brzail too. Copa is small in Chile and Brazil. It wouldn't change anything in Ecuador and Peru as Copa is small in those markets. In Panama they will morn to loose " their" airline but its privately owned and LAN flying the Panama schedule wouldn't change anything.

Colombia is the market where Avianca and Copa have the most competition. IF Copa Colombia and Lan Colombia merged they would still be smaller then Avianca and their are LCC airlines in Colombia now, its not only the AV show. Copa merging into Lan would just add another country to Lan's west coast empire. Its not Lan's fault that venezuela has no major airlines or that Areolinias Argentinas is stuck in the 1970's. Brazil has GOL as its second major airline. The argument that competition would be lessened by Copa and Lan merging is shallow as the only country where this would really effect it is Colombia, AV is a grown up who can take it.
 
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:47 pm

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 31):
Precisely, market or economic reasons, but government sponsored monopoly? Not really, even less with LAN being private and the whole freedom that market has by law.

Indeed. Same has happened with Avianca after the protectionism that existed until the late 90s, but competition has flourished. But they are very different markets too.

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 31):
Yes I know how it went, but they were not a monopoly either by any definition. And the period when they were the biggest behemoth in Colombian skies did not last long, and not even then were they a monopoly strictly speaking, even if they had a clear dominant position.


Anyway, the point here is that every market has it's characteristics. Yes, there was protectionism in Colombia and that is why it has generally more restrictive skies compared to Chile and Peru, but what is not fair nor true is that this protectionism continues to exist or that it's difficult for other companies to establish themselves in colombian skies. Or go ask B6 and NK how horribly they have been doing.

Anyway, with a growing market in south america and LIM being a major axis of north-south connections within the continent, where will we see AV and LA fly to in the future?

Will TA (soon to be AV Perú) concentrate on the domestic market now and leave international growth for later? With the new widebodies coming into the fleet, can we say that JFK and MAD could become future destinations from LIM for the group?

Will LA focus on more widebodies and new intra-south america and north america routes? Will europe be a point of growth? I guess a strong focus on Brazil will come also.

By the way congrats on KE. I would imagine they'll use LAX as a stopover.

[Edited 2012-09-01 07:25:06]
 
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 20):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 19):
Makes me wonder about an AV-TACA-UA tie up LATAM style. . .

Whoa! Going a little fast there...

Maybe a little fast, but it would give UA a strong presence in the region plus a nice boost for Avianca. Especially Avianca Brasil.

It would be a challenge, no doubt. Would make things very interesting though. . .
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:52 pm

PTY needs an early morning PTY-LIM and late evening LIM-PTY, talking about LATAM and AV/TA intensifying competition @ LIM, who would do it 1st?
And as for CM becoming a part of LATAM or AV/TA, it's likely not to happen. IMHO, CM likes its one-hub operation and if it wants to grow in South America, there's Star Alliance AV/TA, some kind of code-share w/G3 and they could well do code-share w/LATAM too.
Surely CM would rather be called a major code-share slut before being swallowed by either LATAM or AV/TA.
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RAGAZZO777
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:57 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 32):
Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 21):
In other LIM-related news, it's been leaked that Korean Air has finally applied with the Peruvian DGAC for permission to commence passenger service between Seoul-Incheon and Lima via a North American point.
Can't wait to see Korean Air's airliners at LIM !

What North American point, and will KE have fifth freedom rights for this flight, I'd hope so. KE has lots of options.

According to the Air Service Agreement between South Korea and Peru, South Korean carriers shall enjoy full 5th Freedom rights on the following routes:

* South Korea - Atlanta - Peru
* South Korea - Los Angeles - Peru
* South Korea - Mexico City - Peru
* South Korea - New York - Peru
* South Korea - San Francisco - Peru
* South Korea - Seattle/Tacoma - Peru

So yes, KE has lots of options ! We'll have to wait and see.



.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 36):
PTY needs an early morning PTY-LIM and late evening LIM-PTY, talking about LATAM and AV/TA intensifying competition @ LIM, who would do it 1st?

LAN Perú recently renewed its permits to operate on the LIM-PTY-LIM route. They've been allocated 7 weekly flight frequencies. Will we see LAN at PTY soon ? Only time will tell.
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 2):
Also, LATAM expects that certain Peruvian carrier(s) will collapse in the future.

Which ones? I wasn't aware that there were any left which posed a competitive threat to LATAM.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 14):
LAN will transfer 3 new B-767-316ERs over to LAN Perú starting next month.

Don't LAN and LAN Peru share their 767 fleets? Will these aircraft go on the Peruvian registry?
 
2travel2know2
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:32 am

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 37):
According to the Air Service Agreement between South Korea and Peru, South Korean carriers shall enjoy full 5th Freedom rights on the following routes:

* South Korea - Atlanta - Peru
* South Korea - Los Angeles - Peru
* South Korea - Mexico City - Peru
* South Korea - New York - Peru
* South Korea - San Francisco - Peru
* South Korea - Seattle/Tacoma - Peru

So yes, KE has lots of options ! We'll have to wait and see.

SkyTeam KE flying to OneWolrd and StarAlliance hotspot LIM? What's the reasoning behind that?
Any KE route via a U.S. airport would make the flight unattractive to those who require U.S. visas just to fly on the same aircraft via a U.S. airport (except ANC). And routing via MEX most likely will require an stop between México and Korea.

Quote:
LAN Perú recently renewed its permits to operate on the LIM-PTY-LIM route. They've been allocated 7 weekly flight frequencies. Will we see LAN at PTY soon ? Only time will tell.

That's great news, regardless if there's no clue when LP would start those flights.
Hope LP knows when to time a daily LIM-PTY-LIM for best performance since CM flies the route 5-6 times per day.
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SJOtoLIR
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 4):
AV transfer some 330s to TA and will be based in LIM??

Rumor has it that the 330 would be utilized later for LIM-MIA, LIM-EZE and they're studying LIM-MAD.
All these segments are well attended by LP at this time.




.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 6):
Taca is at a disadvantage since it only flies A320's, no nonstop to LAX, JFK, MAD and bare able to get to Miami.

Agreed.
The isolated TA LIM-MIA 7x weekly with 320 doesn't seem to offer much competition to LP MIA-LIM with 763 which will be increasing their frequencies soon.




.

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 12):
UA currently operates IAH-LIM, as well as EWR-LIM and adding IAD-LIM could give UA better access to important markets it does not currently serve. AV-TA should do well at LIM.

Prior to the merger UA-CO, the former UA had put its code into TA SCL-LIM.


Regards.
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 40):
Rumor has it that the 330 would be utilized later for LIM-MIA, LIM-EZE and they're studying LIM-MAD.
All these segments are well attended by LP at this time.

It seems Lima will be a real competitive hub bet Star alliance Avianca and OW Lan and AA. Will three airlines from Lima to Madrid be onw too many ? Suddenly flying A330 to all the ususal destinations is a huge increase in capacity.
 
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 38):
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 2):
Also, LATAM expects that certain Peruvian carrier(s) will collapse in the future.

Which ones? I wasn't aware that there were any left which posed a competitive threat to LATAM.

Hint, one domestic carrier was forced to briefly suspend operations last year due to certain "irregularities".

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 38):
Don't LAN and LAN Peru share their 767 fleets? Will these aircraft go on the Peruvian registry?

LAN Perú's entire fleet is composed of Chilean registered a/c.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 41):
Will three airlines from Lima to Madrid be onw too many ?

Three airlines already operate the LIM-MAD route. LAN, IB and UX. Air Europa recently increased frequency on the route from 5x weekly to a daily service.
 
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:13 am

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 39):
SkyTeam KE flying to OneWolrd and StarAlliance hotspot LIM? What's the reasoning behind that?

Probably the same reason why Air Europa, Air France and KLM fly to Lima despite its status as a Star Alliance and Oneworld hub. As a matter or fact, SkyTeam is the leading airline alliance on the Lima-Europe market.

Korean Air has obviously done its homework, so if they're launching direct flights between Seoul and Lima they must know why they're doing so. Also, it should be noted that South Korean citizens do not need a visa to transit the United States.
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2travel2know2
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 43):
Probably the same reason why Air Europa, Air France and KLM fly to Lima despite its status as a Star Alliance and Oneworld hub. As a matter or fact, SkyTeam is the leading airline alliance on the Lima-Europe market.

Korean Air has obviously done its homework, so if they're launching direct flights between Seoul and Lima they must know why they're doing so. Also, it should be noted that South Korean citizens do not need a visa to transit the United States.

LIM-Europe O/D is one thing, LIM-Far East another, specially if lots of the traffic to originate in LIM most likely would need US transit visas to fly KE.
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RAGAZZO777
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:47 am

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 44):
LIM-Europe O/D is one thing, LIM-Far East another

Of course they're different markets, I was just pointing out the fact that LIM is an attractive destination for SkyTeam carriers as you had stated this:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 39):
SkyTeam KE flying to OneWolrd and StarAlliance hotspot LIM? What's the reasoning behind that?

.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 44):
specially if lots of the traffic to originate in LIM most likely would need US transit visas to fly KE.

Korean Air is the carrier launching this route, not LAN or TACA, so obviously most of the route traffic would originate in Asia.
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:01 am

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 45):
Korean Air is the carrier launching this route, not LAN or TACA, so obviously most of the route traffic would originate in Asia.

The majority of pax traveling between Perú and Asia do transit via the U.S. For example, KE currently code-shares with LAN on the SCL-LIM-LAX route. LAN will soon offer connections between SCL and ICN with KE via AKL. Also, CX will enhance its code-share relationship with LAN Perú and will code-share on LAN Perú's new LIM-JFK route.
 
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:37 am

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 37):
* South Korea - Atlanta - Peru
* South Korea - Los Angeles - Peru
* South Korea - Mexico City - Peru
* South Korea - New York - Peru
* South Korea - San Francisco - Peru
* South Korea - Seattle/Tacoma - Peru

All of these markets have competition except Seattle, yet Seattle is not a very big O/D market, I'd expect KE to go via LAX but there is some competition, with a much larger O/D market. I think a less than weekly 744, 777 could make a LIM-LAX-LIM route work, but I'd expect lower yields, however LP is not that inexpensive, KE will end up selling tickets in wholesale to travel agents bucket shops, That is where an agent can still make a few honest bucks in selling air tickets for carriers.
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RE: LAN And AV-TA To Intensify Competition At LIM

Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:31 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 33):
What regulator is going to be against this ? Chile ? They will support a LAN + Copa merger, Brzail too. Copa is small in Chile and Brazil. It wouldn't change anything in Ecuador and Peru as Copa is small in those markets. In Panama they will morn to loose " their" airline but its privately owned and LAN flying the Panama schedule wouldn't change anything.

How do you know for certain that all these countries will support such a merger? Privately owned or not, regulators look at the total coverage of any proposed merger. KL and AF were also privately owned and still they needed the approval of the EU regulators to merge.

A388