Gonzalo
Topic Author
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:19 pm

Let´s see if this new stage in its history can improve the things in AR...

What impact could this have in traffic numbers for both, AR and EZE ?


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-to-join-skyteam-tomorrow-375844/

Rgds.

G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
FlyingHollander
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:35 pm

As long as AR has split operations between its two Buenos Aires airports I don't see anything changing in the near future.
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15207
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:40 pm

Book your flight now at sad.com/skyteam
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2303
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:41 pm

They're hopeless how the hell did they actually get in?
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15207
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 3):

They're hopeless how the hell did they actually get in?


I can understand linking AR in to an alliance for future value but how long will that take? And to subject your pax to them now? Oy.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:54 pm

Much needed checks and balances - congrats to SkyTeam.

Outside of Africa, there's no single large continent with such lopsided influence from one single alliance : oneworld in South America
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2303
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:01 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 5):
Outside of Africa, there's no single large continent with such lopsided influence from one single alliance : oneworld in South America

What about Australia.... also a continent and also basically dominated by oneworld?
 
Gonzalo
Topic Author
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 3):
They're hopeless how the hell did they actually get in?

Probably the same way that IT get into OW !!   
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
mogandoCI
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 6):
What about Australia.... also a continent and also basically dominated by oneworld?

VirginAus is keeping QF in check domestically (and succeeding). There's also NZ, but depends on whether you want to call it "Australia" or "Oceania"

But in South America, LANTAM's dominance is far larger than AV-TA or the rumored AR+Gol
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2303
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:30 pm

well im sure LAN is keeping AR in check..... if it weren't for th AR government i doubt it would still be even flying
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1478
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Book your flight now at sad.com/skyteam

I literally laughed out load. Thanks Mav!
 
CapEd388
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:38 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):

Might want to change the thread title. AR joined today. The article you cited is from yesterday.


SkyTeam Welcomes Aerolineas Argentinas

http://www.skyteam.com/en/About-us/P...rolineas-Argentinas-Joins-SkyTeam/
388 346 77W 787
 
questions
Posts: 1142
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Book your flight now at sad.com/skyteam

I just tried to book a flight. The URL didn't work. Is their site down or did they already go out of business?
 
airbazar
Posts: 6798
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 1):
As long as AR has split operations between its two Buenos Aires airports I don't see anything changing in the near future.

The benefits of a single hub are not as big as in other parts of the World due to Buenos Aires being so far south. You can count on a single hand the number of significant cities south of Buenos Aires.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 6):
What about Australia.... also a continent and also basically dominated by oneworld?

Dometically maybe but certainly not international to/from Australia. And Australia is not a continent. The continent is called Oceania, of which Australia is a country but this is besides the point  
 
Lufthansa
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 12):
The URL didn't work. Is their site down or did they already go out of business?

its AR.... thats perfectly normal. Honestly I love Argentina to death, its my favorite latin country and I nearly married a brazilian...and Sao Paulo wasn't exactly my cup of tea so Buenos Aries was almost home. It's an absolutely amazing country.. but AR doesn't do a good enough job of serving it. fleet aside... even with older aircraft its poorly managed. And it has soooooooo much potential!
 
RCS763AV
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Book your flight now at sad.com/skyteam

Haha! I have to agree with you on that one.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
I can understand linking AR in to an alliance for future value but how long will that take? And to subject your pax to them now? Oy.

If it ever happens. AR is loosing 2 million dollars a day!

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 8):
But in South America, LANTAM's dominance is far larger than AV-TA or the rumored AR+Gol

True. But Star has a large presence in the continent too with UA, LH, AC, CM and AVTA, and so do Skyteam from europe with AF/KL and UX, and DL to a certain extent from the US. Oneworld's dominance is not the same as some years ago.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 13):
The benefits of a single hub are not as big as in other parts of the World due to Buenos Aires being so far south. You can count on a single hand the number of significant cities south of Buenos Aires.

The benefits of a single hub would grant Skyteam carriers access to the argentinian domestic market which is substantial with the ease of using the same airport. Other that that, you're pointing Buenos Aires EZE's main weakness as a hub, it only serves as a transfer point to SCL and MVD, citing large-ish markets. AR's input into skyteam, other than maybe feeding UX's MAD and AZ's FCO hubs with the local passengers form EZE, are minimal. It's kind of like NZ in Star, save NZ serves the very large trans-tasman market, and has a succesful longhaul operation that is actually profitable and feeds Star hubs, plus a solid product.

Anyway, congrats to AR on achieving this milestone, but frankly this puts Skyteam´s standards to doubt. Let's hope it's a sign for a brighter future for the argentinian carrier, as they do serve a magnificent country. The thing is, it is very uncertain.
 
Gonzalo
Topic Author
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:01 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 13):
You can count on a single hand the number of significant cities south of Buenos Aires.

Not only a single hand, you don't even need a finger... there is not a single city with a significant population ( more than 500.000 ) South of B.A. Biggest cities under that parameter are Neuquen ( 235.000 ) and Bahia Blanca ( 300.000 ).
Certainly no game-changers.

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
airDFW
Posts: 277
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:10 pm

So this means there is hope for AI as well. Skyteam can take any cast offs from any region. Anybody knows how AR compares with AI in terms of product etc.?

Thanks
 
rwsea
Posts: 2422
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:30 pm

The list of marquee, well-established, quality airlines over at SkyTeam continues to grow...
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 12):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Book your flight now at sad.com/skyteam

I just tried to book a flight. The URL didn't work. Is their site down or did they already go out of business?
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 14):
Quoting questions (Reply 12):
The URL didn't work. Is their site down or did they already go out of business?

its AR.... thats perfectly normal.

Let's start from the END.......3) It's not AR, it's Skyteam. 2)They didn't go out of business, the URL is fictitious. 1) Someone didn't get the joke. It's not April, but I still had a good laugh.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
TeamintheSky
Posts: 290
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:18 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Book your flight now at sad.com/skyteam
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 3):
They're hopeless how the hell did they actually get in?
Quoting rwsea (Reply 18):
The list of marquee, well-established, quality airlines over at SkyTeam continues to grow...




Apologize rwsea if yours wasn't in jest, but I am fairly certain that it was.

While all three alliances have had bankruptcies, for those who are counting outright liquidations:

Star Alliance has had: Ansett (now dead), Spainair (now dead), and Adria (could be next to go)

oneworld has had: Malev (now dead), Mexicana (still listed but now dead), airberlin (doing horribly), and was almost saddled with Kingfisher

SkyTeam: not one carrier has liquidated


I know it is an a.net pastime to poke fun at members that SkyTeam picks up. But SkyTeam has never gone after the five star carriers, but rather stuck with large regional carriers. Now, I would be the first to admit that pick-ups like AR and RO leave me scratching my head occasionally, but I have to think that SkyTeam has a plan and believes that AR can right its ship and be a valuable South American team member.

I look forward to AR being in, and now SkyTeam must beg, borrow, and steal to get Gol to join!

Regards,

Team
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4431
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 20):
SkyTeam: not one carrier has liquidated

But I see they are trying to change all that by having AR in their alliance.
It is what it is...
 
delimit
Posts: 759
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:55 pm

AR is owned by the Argentine Government. Short of revolution it is not going anywhere.
 
C010T3
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 20):
not one carrier has liquidated

You're forgetting about the original Alitalia.
 
AR385
Posts: 6734
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:22 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 21):
But I see they are trying to change all that by having AR in their alliance.
Quoting delimit (Reply 22):
AR is owned by the Argentine Government. Short of revolution it is not going anywhere.

Exactly. People just don´t get it. The current government in Argentina, and Cristina may very well manage to change the Constitution for a second re-election, will NEVER, EVER, let AR go bankrupt, or disappear. It is what they consider a symbol of their "Model", whatever that means, and it is just too important in those terms to let it fail. AR will be around for many years and is a valuable addition to Skyteam simply by the access it provides to the interior of the country.

Wether it is a quality carrier, well, that is another question entirely, especially when you have to be in San Rafael, for example, and AR is the only one who flies there from AEP.

[Edited 2012-08-29 13:36:36]
 
Gonzalo
Topic Author
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:50 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 24):
Exactly. People just don´t get it. The current government in Argentina, and Cristina may very well manage to change the Constitution for a second re-election, will NEVER, EVER, let AR go bankrupt, or disappear.

Totally right. But she's human. Can't last forever. And things are never so sure in politics, specially in Argentina. She can be re-re-elected for the next 15 years, or be kicked off the next year if the prices of the commodities ( basically soy ) that keep her model "alive" go down, for whatever reason... I would never say never ....The next person in charge could perfectly use the closure of this bleeding airline as an example of how different will be the things under his/her administration.

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
TeamintheSky
Posts: 290
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:18 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 25):
Totally right. But she's human. Can't last forever. And things are never so sure in politics, specially in Argentina. She can be re-re-elected for the next 15 years, or be kicked off the next year if the prices of the commodities ( basically soy ) that keep her model "alive" go down, for whatever reason... I would never say never ....The next person in charge could perfectly use the closure of this bleeding airline as an example of how different will be the things under his/her administration.




While I will withhold comment on the Cristina Elisabet Fernández de Kirchner Regime, I do think that SkyTeam would have made sure to mitigate the risk of AR simply being disbanded due to regime change.

Now, Gonzalo I completely agree though with all of your posts across the months that AR is a bloated state carrier used as more of a political machine than an actual profit making airline. I have hopes that one day much like AF, KE, and SU that it will become a competitive privatized carrier which is set apart by it's service. However, I would be dishonest if I said it looks more like AI than any of those previous examples or LATAM as a regional example.

Regards,

Team
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:01 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 24):
Exactly. People just don´t get it. The current government in Argentina, and Cristina may very well manage to change the Constitution for a second re-election, will NEVER, EVER, let AR go bankrupt, or disappear. It is what they consider a symbol of their "Model", whatever that means, and it is just too important in those terms to let it fail. AR will be around for many years and is a valuable addition to Skyteam simply by the access it provides to the interior of the country.

haha are you sure ... they were even willing to let the country's debts default, let alone an airline

but Cristina wasn't the president back in 2001, so maybe she sees it differently
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6166
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Let´s see if this new stage in its history can improve the things in AR...

Hopefully that happens. Argentina deserves a quality flag carrier.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 8):
rumored AR+Gol

Gol has been very clear about staying independent and not favoring a particular alliance. The DL investment might indicate that Gol is closer to membership than it was before that investment happened, but I don't think it is decisive. It is interesting to note that even though AM and Gol entered into a codeshare agreement some time ago, it is no longer in effect and AM now effectively codeshares with JJ in flights within Mexico and Brazil and between the two countries.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 13):
The benefits of a single hub are not as big as in other parts of the World due to Buenos Aires being so far south.

I agree. AR brings to the table mostly their Argentine customers and access to the domestic network. There are very, very few international-to-international one stop routes that EZE would be attractive for, such as Chile and Uruguay to South Africa, but AR does not even fly to South Africa, so that is a moot point (and the number of travelers is too small to be worthwhile anyway).

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 15):
and so do Skyteam from europe with AF/KL and UX, and DL to a certain extent from the US.

It seems that, to you, AM's presence at BOG, CCS, LIM, SCL, EZE and GRU is irrelevant.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 15):
AR's input into skyteam, other than maybe feeding UX's MAD and AZ's FCO hubs with the local passengers form EZE, are minimal.

Does AR still fly to MEX? They could feed AM's domestic and North American network at MEX if they still do.

Quoting AirDFW (Reply 17):
Skyteam can take any cast offs from any region. Anybody knows how AR compares with AI in terms of product etc.?

Well, considering service standards only and leaving financial performance aside, seems AI might be better. I have read a few trip reports here that praise AI's catering and crews, whereas most reports on AR are highly negative.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 20):
now SkyTeam must beg, borrow, and steal to get Gol to join!

I wonder if Gol would have to fit at least some of its planes (those used for international routes) with a business class cabin in order to become eligible to join.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
TeamintheSky
Posts: 290
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:18 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:10 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 28):
I wonder if Gol would have to fit at least some of its planes (those used for international routes) with a business class cabin in order to become eligible to join.

The million dollar question, would Gol bring back Varig for Long-Haul? While merely speculation, it would be nice to see an order of 787's for Gol to revive the Varig brand. However, outside of aviation nuts like us, the question would be whether that would be wise in the first place.

To answer your question, I have a feeling that if Gol (or possibly Westjet or Indigo) wanted to join, while the alliance might encourage the development of a more premium product, I doubt Michael Wisbrun would show them the door because they lacked it currently.
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:22 am

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 8):
But in South America, LANTAM's dominance is far larger than AV-TA or the rumored AR+Gol

The name of the airline group is LATAM, not LANTAM!

Interesting analysis from CAPA about AR's entry into SkyTeam:
Aerolineas Argentinas tries to overcome troubled past and continued challenges as it enters SkyTeam
 
rafabullara
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:32 pm

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:24 am

All I can say is:

I'm really sorry for the passengers of others Skyteam members connecting with AR!
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3645
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:55 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 28):
It seems that, to you, AM's presence at BOG, CCS, LIM, SCL, EZE and GRU is irrelevant.

No. Not at all. I just forgot to mention them because I was somehow thinking on the non latin american members of the alliances. I apologize.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 28):
Does AR still fly to MEX? They could feed AM's domestic and North American network at MEX if they still do.

They don't.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2396
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:03 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 15):
But Star has a large presence in the continent too with UA, LH, AC, CM and AVTA, and so do Skyteam from europe with AF/KL and UX, and DL to a certain extent from the US

AR was the only feasible candidate for SkyTeam grouping in deep South America.
We're not clear yet whether G3 is really aiming towards SkyTeam or they want to remain independent.




.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 16):
South of B.A. Biggest cities under that parameter are Neuquen ( 235.000 ) and Bahia Blanca ( 300.000 ).

Neuquen is well served from the capital city by means of both AR and 4M, allowing several weekly flights linking the AEP-NQN sector.
Austral on behalf of AR inaugurated this year the route named EZE-COR-MDZ-NQN-CRD; thrice a week.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
LatinPlane
Posts: 2471
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 1999 11:05 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:27 am

Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
ORDJOE
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:27 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:59 am

AR seems like a perfect match for the skyteam, will fit in perfectly. I am sure plenty in the states will line up to spend their DL sky pesos to get the AR experience.
Joking aside I had to be rebooked onto them during iIROPS, and exactly as you expect for an airline run by the Argentinian government.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15207
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 28):
AR brings to the table mostly their Argentine customers and access to the domestic network

Even if there was only one B.A. airport, the beyond BA demand is next to nothing, especially since Cristina has made a major effort to centralize power and weaken the provinces. Add to that the AEP/EZE issue and you have very little traffic connecting beyond EZE.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 20):
Star Alliance has had: Ansett (now dead), Spainair (now dead), and Adria (could be next to go)

oneworld has had: Malev (now dead), Mexicana (still listed but now dead), airberlin (doing horribly), and was almost saddled with Kingfisher

Most of those at least had the decency to die.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 16):
Not only a single hand, you don't even need a finger... there is not a single city with a significant population ( more than 500.000 ) South of B.A. Biggest cities under that parameter are Neuquen ( 235.000 ) and Bahia Blanca ( 300.000 ).
Certainly no game-changers.

  

Quoting questions (Reply 12):
I just tried to book a flight. The URL didn't work. Is their site down or did they already go out of business?

It's like booking a Y4/WN codeshare. You're going to need several different browsers, a couple candles, and a divining rod. Actually AR/DL is probably infinitely easier to book than Y4/WN 
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
peanuts
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:10 pm

Alright. So AR is a basket case. Let's have a chuckle over it and than move on.

You have to have a little vision in order to succeed long term, in any business. Richard Anderson takes his airline seriously and has proven it over the past 5 years. DL has also, pretty much, become the unofficial enviable leader within SkyTeam. I'm sure the French and Dutch would argue that point but so far RA's proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

I think DL has taken the bull by the horns and has committed to the remnant airline of South America in order to sew up a deal with GOL. Hopefully over time, there will be some management exchanges between DL and AR so that long term, AR can actually learn something about how an airline is supposed to be run. I think DL wants positive influence over AR and they may actually get it, over time.

What are the other South America alternatives for SkyTeam? Sure, this scenario takes work and a little magic (working with Argentinian bureaucrats is probably nearly impossible). In the end, SkyTeam may still win South America over StarAlliance.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6166
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:15 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):
Even if there was only one B.A. airport, the beyond BA demand is next to nothing,

Well, people in the rest of Argentina need to fly too, and even if a portion (small or big) of those would rather fly LAN Argentina or any other carrier, there is still a market that will benefit from AR's membership in SkyTeam. Now, if we stick to the Bs.As. metro area as you suggest, we are still talking of more than 13 million inhabitants, a portion of which are middle class and wealthy and need to fly, and a subportion of which are potential AR customers. This is AR's contribution to the alliance at the moment as I mentioned on reply 28; may not be big or high-yield, but it exists. Further, once AR structures its banks of domestic arrivals and departures at EZE as mentioned somewhere else on this thread, there will be a real possibility to connect at EZE between SkyTeam services and AR's domestic network.

I guess we all agree that AR is neither a big part of the alliance nor a bright spot in terms of quality, but we should not forget that one way or another it is the flag carrier of South America's second largest economy (and enjoys the government's support), so they offer real or perceived potential to SkyTeam.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:26 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):
Even if there was only one B.A. airport, the beyond BA demand is next to nothing, especially since Cristina has made a major effort to centralize power and weaken the provinces. Add to that the AEP/EZE issue and you have very little traffic connecting beyond EZE.

Outside of Buenos Aires, there is demand for international flights from destinations such as COR, MDZ and ROS. That's about it.
 
AR385
Posts: 6734
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:55 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 39):
Outside of Buenos Aires, there is demand for international flights from destinations such as COR, MDZ and ROS. That's about it.

You are forgetting the high yield tourist destinations such as Bariloche, El Calafate, Ushuaia, and such. These are not your average spring breakers, but wealthy tourists who spend a lot of money.
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:06 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
You are forgetting the high yield tourist destinations such as Bariloche, El Calafate, Ushuaia, and such.

These are seasonal destinations that could sustain seasonal regional flights. Certain carriers used to operate and wanted to operate seasonal flights into some of these destinations in the past.
 
KLM685
Posts: 1506
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 12:41 pm

RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:38 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):

Book your flight now at sad.com/skyteam

Best post ever. Exactly my thoughts.

I just can't imagine arriving in J class with, let's say, Air France to EZE and jumping to AR for a domestic/international flight.
KLM- The Best Airline in the World!
 
Gonzalo
Topic Author
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:00 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 38):
we are still talking of more than 13 million inhabitants, a portion of which are middle class and wealthy and need to fly, and a subportion of which are potential AR customers.

The problem is, that portion or subportion you mention is shrinking dramatically in the last years. Add to that the ( beyond ridiculous ) restricitions to the free money exchange ( this country has like 5 "types of Dollars", there is a Dolar Tourist, Dolar Blue, Dolar Importer-Exporter, Official Dolar, and so on ), and you will end with a very reduced number if you compare with the overall population. In fact, the Chilean market for air travel is bigger, while the total population of Chile is less than a half of the Argentinian population.

Quoting KLM685 (Reply 42):
I just can't imagine arriving in J class with, let's say, Air France to EZE and jumping to AR for a domestic/international flight.

-"Sir, you have luck, today our flight to EZE is overbooked in Y, so we have the pleasure to upgrade you to J....but your leg out of EZE is in AR"
-AR ?.....ARggghh"

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:37 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 38):
Well, people in the rest of Argentina need to fly too, and even if a portion (small or big) of those would rather fly LAN Argentina or any other carrier, there is still a market that will benefit from AR's membership in SkyTeam.

Of course--Skyteam gets a point of sale advantage in Argentina. It's worth *something*; I'm just not sure it'll offset its drawbacks for many years to come.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 39):
Outside of Buenos Aires, there is demand for international flights from destinations such as COR, MDZ and ROS. That's about it.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
You are forgetting the high yield tourist destinations such as Bariloche, El Calafate, Ushuaia, and such. These are not your average spring breakers, but wealthy tourists who spend a lot of money.

All of Argentina outside of EZE/AEP has the combined demand to the US of about 200 pax, and there is no reason to believe any of it will grow any time soon with an imminently collapsing economy and hypercentralization of Cristina's government.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
SCL767
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:46 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
All of Argentina outside of EZE/AEP has the combined demand to the US of about 200 pax, and there is no reason to believe any of it will grow any time soon with an imminently collapsing economy and hypercentralization of Cristina's government.

What about demand to other destinations with-in Latin America and to Spain? I don't think that LA recently increased frequencies on the SCL-COR and SCL-MDZ routes due to a decrease in demand.
 
C010T3
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 41):
These are seasonal destinations that could sustain seasonal regional flights. Certain carriers used to operate and wanted to operate seasonal flights into some of these destinations in the past.

Yes, TAM, for example, was driven out GRU-BRC.
 
SCL767
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:12 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 46):
Yes, TAM, for example, was driven out GRU-BRC.

LAN was driven out of BRC and ROS. LAN added EZE-BRC for international connections and will soon add EZE-USH daily for international connections.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 46):
Yes, TAM, for example, was driven out GRU-BRC.
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 47):
LAN was driven out of BRC and ROS.

Although not that much a seasonal destination, but with a big tourism component, TA was denied permits to keep flying to MDZ.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):

Of course--Skyteam gets a point of sale advantage in Argentina. It's worth *something*; I'm just not sure it'll offset its drawbacks for many years to come.
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 43):
The problem is, that portion or subportion you mention is shrinking dramatically in the last years. Add to that the ( beyond ridiculous ) restricitions to the free money exchange ( this country has like 5 "types of Dollars", there is a Dolar Tourist, Dolar Blue, Dolar Importer-Exporter, Official Dolar, and so on ), and you will end with a very reduced number if you compare with the overall population.

Exactly my thoughts. I don't see how AR could even be a long-term investment, conditions would have to dramatically change.
 
SCL767
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RE: AR Officially Joins SkyTeam Tomorrow

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:31 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 48):
Although not that much a seasonal destination, but with a big tourism component, TA was denied permits to keep flying to MDZ.

LATAM has major operations at AEP/EZE. Outside of BUE, LAN serves both COR and MDZ:
LIM-COR daily
SCL-COR 2x daily
SCL-MDZ 3x daily