titus95
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Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:48 pm

http://www.journal-aviation.com/actu...entre-787-et-a350-dans-les-12-mois

During the next 12 coming month , Virgin Australia would made an announcement about their choice between the 787 and the A350.

Interestingly in this article , their CEO told he has contacted Boeing about the recently 787 Qantas order.Problem all these 787s have already been rellocated to other (s) airline (s).

Hard to say , who will be the winner , since Virgin Australia operate the equal number of each manufacturer , 5 each ( 777 and A330).
In fact don't know if this new order will be signed to replace this fleet , or for growth , and in that case , where ?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:00 pm

Could go either way, but they are a large GE operator with the 737NG and they have chosen the 737 MAX so they will be staying CFM. The 777-300ER fleet is GE-powered and GE is an option on the 787. VA's A330-200s are RR-powered, but that's only 5 frames vs. over 60 with GE/CFM and more to come.

The 787-8 is, IMO, a better A330-200 replacement than the A350-800: similar passenger capacity to the A330-200 with more cargo volume than the A330-200 or the A350-800 and a lighter frame than either (in an OEM config). The only real advantage for the A350-800 is range and true ULH / C-Market missions aren't doing so well. And they appear to have been interested in QF's 787-9 slots.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:46 pm

If they can get a few of the QF production slots, then VA can get the B-788 much, much earlier than the A-358.

The B-788 has a MTOW some 69,000 lbs lower than the A-358.

The B-788 has a MLW some 45,000 lbs lower than the A-358.

The difference in max range is only about 200 nm, in favor of the A-358.

The B-788 has a slight cargo lift weight and pallet/LD-3 position over the A-358.

The A-358 carries about 12 more pax in a 2 class configueration than the B-788.

The B-788 has already delivered some 17-20 airplanes and the earliest delivery date for the A-358 is around 2017, and then they would be # 119 in line for the -800 version. To me that means no A-358s before about 2020-2022, unless Leahy works some magic.
 
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rotating14
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
If they can get a few of the QF production slots, then VA can get the B-788 much, much earlier than the A-358.
http://www.ausbt.com.au/virgin-austr...-qantas-cancelled-boeing-787-order

Unfortunately according to this article, those slots are already taken. How those slots were shopped so fast is interesting. It begs the question, is there is a waiting list for carriers who fall off the wagon??
 
tullamarine
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:08 pm

The 787 seems to be more suited if the new plane is to replace the A330s. There was also talk of replacing the 77Ws. If this is the case, then the A350 comes back into calculations as only the A350-1000 appears to be a suitable replacement here and the A350-800 could then replace the A330 even though it is over-spec for the current VA A330 missions.

Chances are VA will look quite different by the time the new widebody arrives. There has been much speculation regarding Asian routes which either of the proposed planes could handle very well. There is also ongoing domestic growth which is likely to mean more widebodies between MEL and SYD. There is no plane optimised for this route (I guess the stillborn 787-3 was) but QF has made a fortune over the years using 763s and A330s. It is the third busiest domestic route in the world so moving to larger planes makes as much sense for VA as it does for QF.
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Stitch
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:32 pm

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 4):
There was also talk of replacing the 77Ws. If this is the case, then the A350 comes back into calculations as only the A350-1000 appears to be a suitable replacement here...

Three of VA's 777-300ERs were delivered in 2009 with a fourth in 2010, so they're very young and likely not up for replacement before the next decade, when the 777X could be available (should Boeing launch it).

[Edited 2012-08-29 16:32:56]
 
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Polot
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 3):
Unfortunately according to this article, those slots are already taken. How those slots were shopped so fast is interesting. It begs the question, is there is a waiting list for carriers who fall off the wagon??

It's likely Boeing has know about QF's intent to cancel part of its order for awhile now. Despite the problems the 787 has had it is still a great plane that many airlines would love to get their hands on as soon as possible, so Boeing had time to shop around the delivery window that QF's slots fell in.
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 3):
Unfortunately according to this article, those slots are already taken. How those slots were shopped so fast is interesting. It begs the question, is there is a waiting list for carriers who fall off the wagon??

It seems more likely that these slots will be used to reduce the wait list as 787 production is still not ramping up as Boeing predicts.
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qf002
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:20 am

I definitely think that the 787 is the better fit for VA -- they made a mistake in ordering such a big aircraft as their only international aircraft (the 77L would have been a far better fit), and they now face big barriers because of this. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the A332's will be flying internationally any time soon either, given that VA would be crazy to replace them with 737's on transcon having build up the whole 'Coast-to-Coast' thing around the widebody fleet.

My bet would be a mix of about 20 788/789's. They would then be competitively positioned to fly daily to LAX from SYD/MEL/BNE, perhaps open up another US city (SFO?) and fly daily to AUH from SYD (perhaps adding BNE?) with enough frames left to cover domestic flying and a few flights to Asia.

Having said that, it would not at all surprise me to see them order the A350, simply to be different to QF. Their strategy seems to be to largely mimic QF but put their own 'skin' on the surface.

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 3):
How those slots were shopped so fast is interesting.

QF and Boeing would have been in negotiations months ago surrounding this cancellation. QF didn't just give them a quick call before they put out the press release. Virgin found out when we did, Boeing found out months ago.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:26 am

given their continued engineering tie ups with Air NZ I suspect the 789 may get the nod.
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thegeek
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:54 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
If they can get a few of the QF production slots, then VA can get the B-788 much, much earlier than the A-358.

This was never going to be on the table.

Boeing aren't going to say to their customers with very delayed delivery that they can't have the QF slots because they gave them to DJ/VA. It would leave a very bad taste, even if it makes no difference to late delivery penalties.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 8):
I definitely think that the 787 is the better fit for VA

I differ. The A350 will be better for their international routes to LAX, and there is plenty of demand to PER too; I'm sure that can stand to have a bigger plane. By going with that they can rationalise two types into one.

I'm not sure that a plane as small as a 787 can go head to head with the A380 on SYD-LAX & MEL-LAX.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 8):
(the 77L would have been a far better fit)

Not a fact. The 77L has its additional revenue potential as freight rather than passenger. Trip costs are presumably slightly in favour of the 77L. Perhaps it would have worked better for them and they would have been able to increase frequency higher while keeping revenue per trip nearly as high, but that is not clear based on any info I am aware of.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 9):
given their continued engineering tie ups with Air NZ I suspect the 789 may get the nod.

A possibility that this could swing the outcome, in spite of what I posted above.

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 4):
between MEL and SYD. There is no plane optimised for this route (I guess the stillborn 787-3 was)

I would say the 764 is about as close as you might get. But QF didn't see the need to order it.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:12 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 10):
Not a fact. The 77L has its additional revenue potential as freight rather than passenger. Trip costs are presumably slightly in favour of the 77L. Perhaps it would have worked better for them and they would have been able to increase frequency higher while keeping revenue per trip nearly as high, but that is not clear based on any info I am aware of.

Do VA publish load factors for services to LAX?
 
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scbriml
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:09 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
The 787-8 is, IMO, a better A330-200 replacement than the A350-800: similar passenger capacity to the A330-200

If you want like-for-like capacity. Depending how much growth VA sees over the next few years, the A359 might be a better fit.
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thegeek
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:36 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 11):
Do VA publish load factors for services to LAX?

BiTRE publish statistics for Oz-USA on VA. May 2012:
16208 pax inbound (to Oz) and 596.8t freight
18584 pax outbound and 355.7t freight

Actually also listed is: 72.4% in and 83% out

Source: http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications...activity-monthly_publications.aspx
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:50 pm

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 9):
given their continued engineering tie ups with Air NZ I suspect the 789 may get the nod.

I agree that could be a factor.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 10):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):If they can get a few of the QF production slots, then VA can get the B-788 much, much earlier than the A-358.
This was never going to be on the table.

Boeing aren't going to say to their customers with very delayed delivery that they can't have the QF slots because they gave them to DJ/VA. It would leave a very bad taste, even if it makes no difference to late delivery penalties.

That is true, but it does move the 35 slots at the end of the current line up by a year, or two.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 10):
The A350 will be better for their international routes to LAX, and there is plenty of demand to PER too; I'm sure that can stand to have a bigger plane. By going with that they can rationalise two types into one.

It seems a lot of airlines that have ordered the B-787 over the A-350 disagree with you here. VA can always order both the B-788 and B-789 over the A-358 and A-359.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 10):
Quoting tullamarine (Reply 4):between MEL and SYD. There is no plane optimised for this route (I guess the stillborn 787-3 was)
I would say the 764 is about as close as you might get. But QF didn't see the need to order it.

The B-764 can still be ordered, it is still offered by Boeing, as is the B-763. But seeing the distance between MEL and SYD is only about 400 nm, I don't see why a B-738/9/-8MAX/-9MAX or A-320/-321/-320NEO/-321NEO wouldn't be better service, even if frequencies are increased. There are lots of airplanes optimised for a route less than 1000 nm, and that is before you consider any WB.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:30 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
The 787-8 is, IMO, a better A330-200 replacement than the A350-800: similar passenger capacity to the A330-200...
Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
If you want like-for-like capacity. Depending how much growth VA sees over the next few years, the A359 might be a better fit.

Or the 787-9.  
Quoting thegeek (Reply 10):
I'm not sure that a plane as small as a 787 can go head to head with the A380 on SYD-LAX & MEL-LAX.

One would expect VA to continue use the 777-300ER on such missions, perhaps moving to the 777-9 at a later date.

[Edited 2012-08-30 06:32:04]
 
qf002
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:17 pm

Quoting thegeek (Reply 10):
I'm not sure that a plane as small as a 787 can go head to head with the A380 on SYD-LAX & MEL-LAX.

So long as the product is competitive then I don't see it as an issue. It's more competitively important for them to get MEL/BNE-LAX up to daily than to be perceived to be flying bigger planes on SYD-LAX. It would also be a big plus competitively if they were able to distribute capacity by flying smaller planes into more cities.

Does anybody know how the efficiency of the 789 would compare to both the A380 and the A350 on a route like SYD-LAX?

Quoting thegeek (Reply 10):
Not a fact. The 77L has its additional revenue potential as freight rather than passenger. Trip costs are presumably slightly in favour of the 77L. Perhaps it would have worked better for them and they would have been able to increase frequency higher while keeping revenue per trip nearly as high, but that is not clear based on any info I am aware of.

VA seems to constantly have significantly lower fares than QF (especially in J -- for the next few weeks, QF is charging double VA's fares), yet also have consistently lower loads (often by a margin of over 10-15% in non-peak periods). I'd suggest that their yields are pretty poor. Even with their lower cost base, their profitability has got to be pretty poor.

John Borghetti is focused on pushing yields up, and becoming more competitive for corporate clients. The best way to do that is cut back supply and better distribute supply. The 77L would have allowed them the flexibility to do this.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
One would expect VA to continue use the 777-300ER on such missions, perhaps moving to the 777-9 at a later date.

John Borghetti has described this as a "holistic" decision, which will encompass replacements for both the A330 and 777 fleets. Having said that, (I believe) they own 4 of their 77W's so you're quite right that they probably aren't going anywhere any time soon.
 
ben175
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:30 pm

Some routes I suspect we'll see operated with these aircraft are PER-AUH, MEL-NRT, SYD-PEK, PER-PEK MEL/SYD-SFO, and perhaps even SYD/MEL/BNE-HNL.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):

The B-764 can still be ordered, it is still offered by Boeing, as is the B-763. But seeing the distance between MEL and SYD is only about 400 nm, I don't see why a B-738/9/-8MAX/-9MAX or A-320/-321/-320NEO/-321NEO wouldn't be better service, even if frequencies are increased.

nope not so simple as basically there is a departure very 30 mins now, and at peak times there isn't a way to add much more frequency without cutting other departures... not exactly the desired outcome. When you consider even if you picked the 739 max/A321 stepping down from 763 on the majority of these flights...as in like the overwhelming majority not just a few at peak hour... a ridiculous frequency increase would be needed, you'd basically have one plane start boarding as one is pushing back on the same route. In a slot restricted airport this isn't a good use of resources.

Next...ALA comments about the 77W. I disagree with the 'its too big' idea. One of the reasons emirates does so well with the type is the 77W gets their CASM right down. People will hate me for this, but if I were Virgin, I'd stick 10 abreast in it, compensate the pax by increasing the inflight experience in terms of pampering, and introduce a far more impressive business and premium economy experience. Cheapskate brett godfrey's fingerprints are all over the last configuration... right down to using a rather 'generic' looking suite....failing to get the virgin atlantic bar on because he wanted to squeeze another 3 J class seats in per flight... and a premium economy not up to virgin atlantic or Qantas' standard in terms of hardware. 777-300ER is a very good aircraft where its not weight restricted, allowing some of the lowest CASM around. They need to take full advantage of this by making the product more attractive. A smaller company like VA is only ever going to win premium PAX from the likes of QF by either heavily discounting... or offering a more attractive product. I think they need to copy say Turkish Airlines outfit of the 77W, except used 10 abreast.... or maybe use NZ's premium economy product etc. VS and NZ are both partners I'm sure they could work a seat licencing deal out.

And expect the A330 to be in service for quite a while yet. Some of them are just months old.
 
thegeek
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:01 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
That is true, but it does move the 35 slots at the end of the current line up by a year, or two.

I think the full production rate of the 787 is more than 35 aircraft per year, but otherwise your point is valid to that degree.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
It seems a lot of airlines that have ordered the B-787 over the A-350 disagree with you here. VA can always order both the B-788 and B-789 over the A-358 and A-359.

To my knowledge, no airline is planning to use the 787 on SYD/MEL/BNE-LAX. There may be LAS/SAN or possibly SFO though.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
One would expect VA to continue use the 777-300ER on such missions, perhaps moving to the 777-9 at a later date.

I think they need to find a way to extricate themselves from having such a small fleet as 5 aircraft. A350 would allow them to do so.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 16):
So long as the product is competitive then I don't see it as an issue.

I would add that the CASK needs to be competitive (read: no worse) too. But otherwise, I would agree.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 18):
Next...ALA comments about the 77W. I disagree with the 'its too big' idea.

  
 
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Stitch
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:01 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 19):
I think they need to find a way to extricate themselves from having such a small fleet as 5 aircraft. A350 would allow them to do so.

They could also buy more 777-300ERs as they would be available a decade or so earlier.
 
thegeek
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:11 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
They could also buy more 777-300ERs as they would be available a decade or so earlier.

If they could find somewhere to use them.
 
qf002
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:08 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 18):
One of the reasons emirates does so well with the type is the 77W gets their CASM right down.

This is only true if the airline can fill those seats (which Emirates can). VA struggles to fill the plane, and when they do, it's on cheap fares.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:13 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
I don't see why a B-738/9/-8MAX/-9MAX or A-320/-321/-320NEO/-321NEO wouldn't be better service, even if frequencies are increased

The QF timetable for next Monday 3 Sep lists departures from SYD to MEL between 0600 and 0900 as:
0600(x2 B763/A320), 0630(B738), 0645(B738), 0655(A320), 0700(x2 A333/A320), 0710(B738) 0715(B738), 0730(A332), 0745(B738), 0800(B763), 0830(B734), 0845(B738), 0900(B763)
After the morning rush it's basically every half hour on the hour & half hour until 1600 when goes back to every quarter hour until 1800 then every half hour until 2030, then odd flight until the 2300 curfew. The hour flights are generally wide bodies and the half hours B738.

There would seem to be little need to increase frequencies and I suspect that the 0710 & 0715 flights would be combined if a suitable wide body was available. Between 0700 and 0730 there are a total of 870 seats offered. A wide body optimized for around 1000 nm would be most welcome, I would think.

Meanwhile, across the road VA is offering a similar number of flight, albeit on B737 aircraft. They would be another good candidate for a short haul WB as they can't add many more frequencies either.

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kc135topboom
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:26 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 23):
gemuser

Thanks, I did not know the schedules.

Would it make sense for VA to pick up some used B-762s or B-763(non-ERs)s? There would also be several A-306s that could be availabe and used by VA on these short routes. If they wanted to pick up a few new build WBs, they could order new build B-762s and/or B-763s.
 
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zeke
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:46 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 24):

VA will not get any 767/A300/A310, that would be a fleet planning mistake.

I think the only aircraft they will evaluate is the 787/777/330/350, for international flights out of Australia, the 788 I think is too small to generate enough revenue.
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JerseyFlyer
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:59 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 22):
VA struggles to fill the plane, and when they do, it's on cheap fares.

Similar to Jet Airways in India and some others. Suggests something a tad smaller might be a better solution.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting thegeek (Reply 13):
BiTRE publish statistics for Oz-USA on VA. May 2012:
16208 pax inbound (to Oz) and 596.8t freight
18584 pax outbound and 355.7t freight

Actually also listed is: 72.4% in and 83% out

I believe VA and DL code share. Would these numbers include VA passengers travelling on DL hardware?
 
qf002
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 27):
I believe VA and DL code share. Would these numbers include VA passengers travelling on DL hardware?

No -- these figures report on the number of people who traveled on the flights offered by the airline rather than the number of tickets sold by each airline. So a passenger who bought their ticket from VA but traveled on DL would be included in the DL numbers (and vice versa).

DL in the same time period had 70.4% LF inbound, 79.1% outbound.
 
tayser
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
The B-764 can still be ordered, it is still offered by Boeing, as is the B-763. But seeing the distance between MEL and SYD is only about 400 nm, I don't see why a B-738/9/-8MAX/-9MAX or A-320/-321/-320NEO/-321NEO wouldn't be better service, even if frequencies are increased. There are lots of airplanes optimised for a route less than 1000 nm, and that is before you consider any WB.

as has been discussed above by a few people - narrowbodies just simply wont cut it. 60-65% of QF's scheduled services week-in, week-out on MEL-SYD-MEL are 763s or 332s i.e the 250+ pax range. Going all narrowbody would probably require MEL's 3rd runway (16R/34L) and APAC (owner/operator of MEL) is more focused on updating terminals with the 3rd runway about 10 years away according to their masterplan (which is now under revision) - not to mention there'd be major issues with a 50% increase on MEL frequencies at SYD as well.
 
Camohe
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:19 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 18):
Cheapskate brett godfrey's fingerprints are all over the last configuration... right down to using a rather 'generic' looking suite....failing to get the virgin atlantic bar on because he wanted to squeeze another 3 J class seats in per flight...

Last time I flew business in a VA 77W there was a bar...

I recall reading that Godfrey was initially against having a bar but decided to include one following advice from Richard Branson.
 
qf002
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:35 am

Quoting tayser (Reply 29):

I am one who believes that there could be a place for either the A321 or the B739 in the QF fleet -- not just for SYD-MEL, but across multiple routes. If they have a small fleet (say 10-12) aircraft in the fleet anyway, then surely it would make sense for them to schedule the aircraft on the SYD-MEL route as demand required, in order to take advantage of the flexibility of having the extra size bracket.

QF cannot honestly hope to simply replace every 767 flight with an A332 -- the demand simply isn't there for an extra 1,000 seats a day (given the A332 seats aprox 50 pax more than the equivilent 767 -- most of them in Y), especially considering VA's push into the market. If they had a 200ish seat A321 in the fleet, then I'd be willing to bet that it would feature pretty heavily on the SYD-MEL route, especially late at night and on the weekend.

Quoting Camohe (Reply 30):
Last time I flew business in a VA 77W there was a bar...

Not a proper sit-up bar, a la VS, EK etc. The 'bar' that VA offers is really nothing more than what most airlines offer -- self service drinks/snacks in the galley.
 
Camohe
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RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:23 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 31):
Not a proper sit-up bar, a la VS, EK etc. The 'bar' that VA offers is really nothing more than what most airlines offer -- self service drinks/snacks in the galley.

That is incorrect. See this photo...
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?id=1658410
 
qf002
Posts: 3064
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Virgin Australia : 787 Or A350?

Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting Camohe (Reply 32):

That's not a proper sit-up bar. There are a couple of stools at a bench in what is essentially a galley space. It's no more than what QF offers in Y, just with the addition of a few stools.

Compare that photo to:

http://www.designboom.com/cms/images...05/10vaavwbsnewupperclasssuite.jpg

http://richwhitaker.com/blog/wp-cont...emirates-biz-class-lounge-a380.jpg

http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr252/luxuryairandsea/_DSC0283.jpg

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