skycub
Topic Author
Posts: 318
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:49 pm

AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:53 pm

I didnt see this posted anywhere yet....

American Airlines plans to recall the remaining furloughed TWA flight attendants:

"More than 200 Trans World Airlines flight attendants are about to go back to work, nearly 11 years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks that caused an airline industry slowdown and cost tens of thousands of jobs.

The recall of 211 workers announced Thursday means that for the first time since 9/11, there won't be a single former TWA attendant on furlough. The recall is effective Nov. 17."

Full article:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/nationa...3-29ea-514b-b1e7-203af61d2111.html
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
 
Someone83
Posts: 2939
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:59 pm

Wouldn't most of these have gotten another career by now and many would decline the offer?
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 940
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:00 pm

or even still alive?
xx
 
RyanairGuru
Posts: 6554
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:08 pm

How safe are these jobs? With AA in bankruptcy what are the chances of these recalled employees being furloughed again? That would be a truly horrific scenario if you've built up another career over 11 years, leave it, and then land back on you ass 12 months later.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
skycub
Topic Author
Posts: 318
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:49 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:09 pm

For all the jokes you want to make about them and their age....

I can say that I work along-side several women who came from TWA and each of them is a class-act who put some of my younger co-workers to shame.

These women are hard-workers and seem to truly enjoy their job. One, in her late 60s, and who flew for TWA beginning in the late early 1970s until furloughed in 2001, is the epitome of a "classy stewardess."

As for age, while most of the ones I know range in age from mid-50s to late-60s, I also have a friend still on furlough from TWA who (and he was very junior at TWA) is only mid-30s.

I say congrats to them for having the chance to come back to work if they want to after all this time.
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
 
AJMIA
Posts: 430
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:29 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:33 am

Quoting skycub (Reply 4):
I say congrats to them for having the chance to come back to work if they want to after all this time.

I agree. WELCOME BACK!
It is good to have you with us again.

AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
flyfree727
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:11 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:57 am

There is an underlining motive behind AA..

These fa's are eligible for the buy out program, as it was extended to those on "active" status or "furlough" status.

As has been mentioned, it is assumed many have moved on after 9+years of furlough. Many may have opted for the buy-out and taken the money while on furlough status. Now, AA is forcing these furloughs to "make a decision" For each "decline" they receive, AA will be spared from paying the buyout money, as the furloughs have to notify AA of their decision PRIOR to the closing date on the buyout.. If they decline to return, they voluntarily separate (quit) and AA owes them nothing. If they want the buy out, AA will expect them to attend the 6 week training on Oct 1, and then AA will determine when they will be able to leave on the buyout, which could be as late as 4q13. Taking the "money" is going to be on AA's terms.. For those that wish to return and fly indefinitely, I say WELCOME BACK! But, make no mistake, this is going to be a very tough decision for many of these fa's to make. Slightly over 1 month to make a decision AND report to training.

AA ORD
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2341
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:58 pm

What AA did to the TW flight attendants by stapling them to the bottom of the seniority list was unconscionable. It showed a level of arrogance to dismiss tens of years of faithful service that I have never seen in my 38 years in the airline industry. It was so aggregious that Congress passed a law forbidding it to ever happen again. One friend of mine who started with TW in 1977 receives exactly $303.00 a month as his pension for 25 years of work.

As the old saying goes "What goes around, comes around." One can only hope that the AA f/a's feel some of the pain if the US merger goes through. It would be justice truly served.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
LONGisland89
Posts: 543
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:34 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
As the old saying goes "What goes around, comes around." One can only hope that the AA f/a's feel some of the pain if the US merger goes through. It would be justice truly served.

Yes, hope for all of AA's employees to get screwed as if they all helped orchestrate the TWA merger. AA screwed a lot of folks from TWA and it continues to screw its own employees. To hope for them to feel some pain is egregious. Your comment is garbage.
 
seatback
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:31 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
What AA did to the TW flight attendants by stapling them to the bottom of the seniority list was unconscionable

You really HATE AA don't you? You have history of negative posts towards AA.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
One can only hope that the AA f/a's feel some of the pain if the US merger goes through. It would be justice truly served.

Your comments are rude and mean-spirited.
 
RyanairGuru
Posts: 6554
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:40 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
One can only hope that the AA f/a's feel some of the pain if the US merger goes through.

I am in no way condoning the seniority "integration" that occurred during that merger, I agree with you that it was unconscionable. However, as a flight attendant are you seriously wishing pain on the rank-and-file at AA who had absolutely nothing to do with that decision?
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
catiii
Posts: 2391
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:47 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
What AA did to the TW flight attendants by stapling them to the bottom of the seniority list was unconscionable. It showed a level of arrogance to dismiss tens of years of faithful service that I have never seen in my 38 years in the airline industry. It was so aggregious that Congress passed a law forbidding it to ever happen again. One friend of mine who started with TW in 1977 receives exactly $303.00 a month as his pension for 25 years of work.

As the old saying goes "What goes around, comes around." One can only hope that the AA f/a's feel some of the pain if the US merger goes through. It would be justice truly served.

To clarify, isn't it true that it was the AA flight attendants union that stapled them to the bottom of the list, and not AA?
 
EXMEMWIDGET
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 4:25 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:54 pm

Yes. It was the APFA that stapled the TWA F/A's to the bottom of the seniority list, not AA.
 
PRAirbus
Posts: 687
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:59 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:58 pm

YES, TWA FA's union AGREED to go on the bottom of AA FA seniority list prior to the acquisition.
 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6580
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 13):
YES, TWA FA's union AGREED to go on the bottom of AA FA seniority list prior to the acquisition.

What I was told what happened was the TWA FAs were hoodwinked into signing away their "scope" clause in their contract. It was promised by APFA that they would pursue DOH seniority integration, and then it turned around and stapled them to the bottom of the seniority list
Made from jets!
 
N62NA
Posts: 4006
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting EXMEMWIDGET (Reply 12):
Yes. It was the APFA that stapled the TWA F/A's to the bottom of the seniority list, not AA.

Wow, that's stunning. Was it something that the rank-and-file at both AA and TW had to vote for in order for it to pass, or was it just negotiated by "union representatives?"
 
flyfree727
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:11 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:38 pm

The TWA seniority is super old news.. 11+ years ago..

I suspect this thread to be locked if it continues to stray off topic.
If you want to discuss the seniority by all means start a thread, i'll jump in!

AA ORD
 
catiii
Posts: 2391
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 13):
YES, TWA FA's union AGREED to go on the bottom of AA FA seniority list prior to the acquisition.

Patently false. In no way did they agree to get stapled. In fact they fought it in court for years.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2341
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting seatback (Reply 9):
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):What AA did to the TW flight attendants by stapling them to the bottom of the seniority list was unconscionable
You really HATE AA don't you? You have history of negative posts towards AA.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):One can only hope that the AA f/a's feel some of the pain if the US merger goes through. It would be justice truly served.
Your comments are rude and mean-spirited.

As a former Braniff International employee and a proud member of my profession I have had a ringside seat for many years to the corporate tricks, lies and backroom dealings of AA, their management and some (and only some) of their employees. They have deliberately sabotaged, insulted and shown gross disrespect to the rest of the airline industry. That is why many airlines employees only half-jokingly say "The AA on the tail stands for Arrogant A**holes."

APFA did deliberately take advantage of the TW folks, knowing full well that what they were doing was wrong at the most base levels. No AA crew member had ever had a Uli Derickson stand up to terrorists the way this heroic woman did on TW. They had never had their airplanes blown up on the ground or in the air by evil human beings at that point.

One of the basic tenets of working for an air carrier is RESPECT for the rest of the industry. Can you honestly say AA has ever shown any level of respect?

My comments are not mean spirited and rude. I wish to draw attention to some history that many younger A.Netters have never been exposed to.

Remember the Justice Department investigation of Robert Crandall telling Howard Putnam,CEO of BI to fix prices? Remember when seats were blocked on BI flights in groups of nine (anything more than that would require a management override) on competing flights to DCA, IAD, ORD,JFK and LGA. BI would then cater and staff the flights accordingly only to have a hundred "no shows" and the computer trail led directly back to AA reservations. How about the time when AA held back months worth of tickets from BI pax that had to switch to AA for whatever reason (sometimes because their employees would ride the AirTran system at DFW encouraging BI pax to switch to AA) and then in one day dumped hundreds of millions of dollars on the ticket clearinghouse to be paid immediately? That was the only time BI could not meet payroll. And it was NOT accidental.

AA has a long history of not playing nicely with their industry colleagues. I have personally been left standing at the curb in front of a terminal because the AA crew imperiously announced that " We do not ride with OTHER airlines" and this is only to an airport hotel. After a 16 hour workday it does not endear you to them.We were there for them on 9/11 (I personally attended five funerals for their heroic crews) but sometimes their actions are beyond the pale. They get away with it because their management does not demand that it be stopped and the implication is that they are silently complicit. To take a 40 year TW veteran and place her below an AA new hire was a gross indignity and then to furlough them for many years is just disgusting. It did not have to happen that way. They CHOSE to treat people like that.

I am very happy that 211 professionals have been offered recalls but at this point many are too old, moved on or just passed away to appreciate it. That is sad and reflects poorly on the entire industry. We just don't treat each other like that. That being said, the behavior of APFA, again with the full approval of AA management who could have stopped it is, quite simply, unconsicionable and I find it ironic that because of this Congress passed legislation to prevent it from happening again. I truly hope that AA emerges from BK intact--I have several close friends that work there and I only wish them well.

BTW--if you wany a good, reliable source, read John Nance's book "Splash of Colors." It will verify everything I have said.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:02 am

The ONLY reason that American Airlines is calling back the remaining laid off TWA flight attendants is to remove any liabilities that may result to American Airlines if and when they come out of bankruptcy. American Airlines does NOT want any employees that have been laid off for eleven years to cause any problems for American Airlines.
American Airlines dos NOT give a damn about any of it's laid off employees..........
This is just damage control........   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 6678
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:16 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 19):
This is just damage control........

Ah no, it is the human side of writing off expensive leases while in Chpt.11.
The contract terms / obligations in relation to offering the furloughs / buyouts need to be met or discarded to minimize the number of obligations on the company while in Chpt.11. The financial obligation of this is in flux, and I suspect this is a financial move being done to clear and or fix the price.

By end of Oct - if that is the deadline - this cost will be known and can be properly accounted, the cost being looked at is those who take the buyout and those who do not respond.

Personally, I'm not sure any of them who truly loved the job are not now working at another airline, a number of F/A jobs have opened up in the last 10+ years including at startup carriers and normal attrition whether by age or not my type jobs issues. However, there are persons to whom principle is everything and making a point at times is required, so I'm sure we will hear more about the number who decides to return to work.
 
multimark
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:53 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:25 pm

Wow, I'm just surprised they have furlough rights after 11 years! Up here I think CP had three years to be called back and then that was it.
 
AA767400
Posts: 1892
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
As the old saying goes "What goes around, comes around." One can only hope that the AA f/a's feel some of the pain if the US merger goes through. It would be justice truly served.

You're always beating the same drum. You wish "them" to get theirs, but you know yourself that because of the bill passed, they're protected.

Was it wrong - yes. In the end, APFA's president at the time is who signed their fate. The AA's FAs are not to blame, and many now work alongside former TW folks. Pretty much everyone agrees it was wrong. Your comments are negative and rude.

Quoting skycub (Thread starter):
American Airlines plans to recall the remaining furloughed TWA flight attendants:

This is the very last batch of former TW FAs. It's been a long and difficult road for them, and this is welcomed news as close the final chapter. They can choose to come back, or take the early out.

There's big changes coming for the workgroup. With a good amount of people taking the early out, AA should be hiring soon after 11-12 years of no progress. It's time for a new American!
"The low fares airline."
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11833
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 19):

The ONLY reason that American Airlines is calling back the remaining laid off TWA flight attendants is to remove any liabilities that may result to American Airlines if and when they come out of bankruptcy.

Sadly, I must agree with you. This is to start with a clean slate with bankruptcy redundancy rules.

I expect most of the TWA F/As have moved on and thus it is 'cheap insurance' for AMR.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 22):
you know yourself that because of the bill passed, they're protected.

That is the truth to the AMR F/As. But it is also why failing unionized airlines will be less likely to be bought.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 22):
AA should be hiring soon after 11-12 years of no progress. It's time for a new American!

AA first needs a more productive work scheme. I'm not seeing a need for more F/As post bankruptcy.

However, their service has improved dramatically.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
AA767400
Posts: 1892
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 23):
AA first needs a more productive work scheme. I'm not seeing a need for more F/As post bankruptcy.

Trust me, there will be a need. You see, there's plenty of people that have been waiting for this early out. They're ready, and AA has seen the numbers. You'll see hiring for sure.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 23):
That is the truth to the AMR F/As. But it is also why failing unionized airlines will be less likely to be bought.

Huh?   
"The low fares airline."
 
LONGisland89
Posts: 543
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:34 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
One can only hope that the AA f/a's feel some of the pain
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 18):
I have several close friends that work there and I only wish them well.

  

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 18):
My comments are not mean spirited and rude. I wish to draw attention to some history that many younger A.Netters have never been exposed to.


Your comments are mean spirited. I don't see how wishing for employees to feel some of the pain is anything contrary. You being in the industry for a long time doesn't give you the prerogative to hate on employees of another carrier who, many of which, do not have control over union leadership or what management decides to do with the company. I'm just making the point that it's plane ole shitty to say that when thousands of airline workers have lost and are still losing their jobs. I have been directly exposed to AA's crap. People out there are feeling the pain. Your hate for AA management is understandable. Wouldn't it be nicer to see the people at the top feel the pain?
 
AA94
Posts: 651
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
As the old saying goes "What goes around, comes around." One can only hope that the AA f/a's feel some of the pain if the US merger goes through. It would be justice truly served.

Right, because I'm sure the AA flight attendants personally did the stapling.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 18):

You still haven't exactly explained how active AA F/As had any effect on the TWA furlough. I agree that what AA management did is unconscionable, and I'm not even disputing that some AA flight attendants may walk around with upturned noses.

Saying that you hope they "feel the pain" is pretty harsh. AA F/As had very little, if any, control over the TWA situation, and they certainly didn't do anything that directly resulted in the furloughing of TWA F/As.
If you can't take the heat, you best get out of the kitchen
 
seatback
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 18):
One of the basic tenets of working for an air carrier is RESPECT for the rest of the industry. Can you honestly say AA has ever shown any level of respect?

You talk as if AA is a human being. You understand that it is not, right?

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 18):
Remember the Justice Department investigation of Robert Crandall telling Howard Putnam,CEO of BI to fix prices? Remember when seats were blocked on BI flights in groups of nine (anything more than that would require a management override) on competing flights to DCA, IAD, ORD,JFK and LGA. BI would then cater and staff the flights accordingly only to have a hundred "no shows" and the computer trail led directly back to AA reservations. How about the time when AA held back months worth of tickets from BI pax that had to switch to AA for whatever reason (sometimes because their employees would ride the AirTran system at DFW encouraging BI pax to switch to AA) and then in one day dumped hundreds of millions of dollars on the ticket clearinghouse to be paid immediately? That was the only time BI could not meet payroll. And it was NOT accidental.

Yes, I remember very well. Although I wouldn't say the BN events didn't happen, I think some of these stories have become urban legends, that have very little truth or basis thereof.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 18):
I personally attended five funerals for their heroic crews)

But aren't these the same people who have inflicted such misery and pain?

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 18):
To take a 40 year TW veteran and place her below an AA new hire was a gross indignity and then to furlough them for many years is just disgusting. It did not have to happen that way.

Again, you realize this was a union action...correct? Quit blaming AA.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 18):
I have several close friends that work there and I only wish them well.

Really? The same people you wish to inflict pain upon. You're a good friend.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 18):
BTW--if you wany a good, reliable source, read John Nance's book "Splash of Colors." It will verify everything I have said.

Read it. Interesting read. But why is Nance such a "reliable" source?? Because he talked to former BI management??

My father, a retired AA captain and DFW based had many Braniff friends who lost their job in 1982. He along with the thousands of other employees didn't celebrate the loss of Braniff. They are people before pilots, FA and others!

Braniff's demise is because of Braniff and extremely bad management...not AA.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1260
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:34 am

Quoting AA94 (Reply 26):
You still haven't exactly explained how active AA F/As had any effect on the TWA furlough. I agree that what AA management did is unconscionable, and I'm not even disputing that some AA flight attendants may walk around with upturned noses.

Saying that you hope they "feel the pain" is pretty harsh. AA F/As had very little, if any, control over the TWA situation, and they certainly didn't do anything that directly resulted in the furloughing of TWA F/As.

APFA, the FA union that represents the interests of the AA FA's, is the entity that chose the staple job. Management told the unions to work it out and that's what APFA decided was fair. Given that APFA is run by their FA's and carries out their wishes (or at least is supposed to), I would say that the AA FA's did have a hand in the way the seniority "integration" was handled.
 
gen2stew
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:15 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:35 am

Let us not forget that TWA was a small near bankrupt carrier with a decrepit fleet and less than stellar route network that was *BOUGHT NOT MERGED*. The TW F/A's were given pay and vacay seniority, they fared far better than EAL or Pan AM whose companies closed and they had to start over (bottom of pay,seniority... scale)

While an ICONIC name it was just that at the end, a name, a shell of its former self. The notion that TWA was on the rebound or on the way to its former greatness is a dream of loyal employess who were shafted by TWA managment for years... Not the fault of AMR or APFA. APFA did it job : to represent the interest of its members.
I don't know why blessings wear disguises. If I were a blessing, I'd run around nude!
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1260
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:02 am

Quoting gen2stew (Reply 29):
Let us not forget that TWA was a small near bankrupt carrier with a decrepit fleet and less than stellar route network that was *BOUGHT NOT MERGED*. The TW F/A's were given pay and vacay seniority, they fared far better than EAL or Pan AM whose companies closed and they had to start over (bottom of pay,seniority... scale)

While an ICONIC name it was just that at the end, a name, a shell of its former self. The notion that TWA was on the rebound or on the way to its former greatness is a dream of loyal employess who were shafted by TWA managment for years... Not the fault of AMR or APFA. APFA did it job : to represent the interest of its members.

AA FA's screwed the TWA FA's. That great pay and "vacay senoirity" didn't do most of them any good because they were all put out on the street very shortly after the stapling took place. If it makes you sleep better to believe that the TWA folks got a great deal then there's really nothing more to be said. TWA FA's were screwed all the way around. I haven't talk to a FA at any other airline that sees it any differently. In many ways, the AA FA's are not viewed very favorably by their peers at other airlines.
 
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:41 am

Quoting gen2stew (Reply 29):
While an ICONIC name it was just that at the end, a name, a shell of its former self. The notion that TWA was on the rebound or on the way to its former greatness is a dream of loyal employess who were shafted by TWA managment for years... Not the fault of AMR or APFA. APFA did it job : to represent the interest of its members.

You can think about what you said if you find yourself in the same situation and become a laid off flight attendant.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
gen2stew
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:15 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:45 am

TWA WAS BOUGHT, all of the hate and bitterness shown is nothing more than some really bitter grapes and a great deal of ignorance. Think of it this way: when you sell a house you can't tell the new owners leave this wall white and don't pull that plant out. They now own the house and there is not a thing you can do about it; your rights are disolved the monent the signature is signed.

GET OVER IT. IT IS DONE! I can tell the sour grapes people are either TWA or ingnoramasses with not a clue how the industry works.

As for the union shafting the employess of TWA; APFA represents the AA F/A's no one else...
I don't know why blessings wear disguises. If I were a blessing, I'd run around nude!
 
tothestars
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:52 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:20 pm

So how did that decision to staple the TWA f/a's work out for everyone? AA would have been hiring years ago if it weren't for the top of the pay scale former TW f/a's lingering at the bottom in furlough status. Had the APFA slotted fairly all those years ago this issue would be ancient history. The TW f/a's would have finished their careers and retired alongside their AA peers and would not be sitting reserve in a crash pad in MIA...AND everyone else would have moved up the seniority food chain instead of stagnating with same seniority for 11 years. APFA has stated after the fact that stapling them was a mistake...so once again in the long run how'd it work out to everyone's advantage? Incidentally I got my Fed Ex return to active status papers on Friday...see you in MIA gen2stew!

[Edited 2012-09-02 06:26:13]
TWA-Airline To the Stars
 
multimark
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:53 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting gen2stew (Reply 32):
TWA WAS BOUGHT, all of the hate and bitterness shown is nothing more than some really bitter grapes and a great deal of ignorance. Think of it this way: when you sell a house you can't tell the new owners leave this wall white and don't pull that plant out. They now own the house and there is not a thing you can do about it; your rights are disolved the monent the signature is signed.

GET OVER IT. IT IS DONE! I can tell the sour grapes people are either TWA or ingnoramasses with not a clue how the industry works.

As for the union shafting the employess of TWA; APFA represents the AA F/A's no one else...

Plenty of other "bought" airlines have seen fairer integration of seniority lists.
 
User avatar
b727fa
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:21 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting AA94 (Reply 26):
You still haven't exactly explained how active AA F/As had any effect on the TWA furlough.

When the APFA stews proffered into the STL base to replace the TWA stews there. The "fence" required the TWA base to be intact and no nAAtive FA could come in...and magically, at 2359 on June 30th the TWA base closed and at 0001 July 1st the "new" AMR STL base opened...fully staffed with (mostly) very JR nAAtive FA's who actively CHOSE to go into STL knowing it was a one-for-one replacement of SR FA's who would now be on the street...furlough fodder...so they could keep working.

Telling people to "get over it" doesn't make it go away. There is NO way to justify it. APFA now admits it was wrong to do. So wrong it took an act of congress to prevent it from happening again! Why do people STILL defend one of the most egregious violations of labor values/rights and basic tenets of decency? The DFR issues alone are staggering.

Every other crew member (it seems), the general public, the union that DID this, and the US Congress even, has condemned the actions--and there are still people who deny it was wrong. Amazing...
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
AA767400
Posts: 1892
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 30):
AA FA's screwed the TWA FA's.

No, APFA screwed them. And guess what - APFA didn't have a vote with it's membership to ask whether DOH should be done. The then union president, and his country club made the decision. That's maybe at the most 2% of the work force. So let's stop grouping everyone into a sinister light.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 30):
In many ways, the AA FA's are not viewed very favorably by their peers at other airlines.

You state this because you feel every single FA at AA stapled their TW peers at the bottom of the list. In the end, let's be real, and leave the high school drama, and cattiness where it belongs. People really need to grow up...
"The low fares airline."
 
User avatar
b727fa
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:21 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:07 pm

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 36):
In the end, let's be real, and leave the high school drama, and cattiness where it belongs.

And this is the problem: there are still people who think this was a game or "high school drama" and that they are somehow not culpable in their tacit approval of what happened. If the "membership" were TRULY hoodwinked and short circuited by the APFA leadership then why did they direct the union to continue the fight with TWU? I don't buy it--you MAY have been hoodwinked at first but for all of you who stayed quiet after the fact, you share the blame and shame. And ANYONE who proffered into STL is all but equal to a SCAB to me. You people took jobs from your union members! Shame!

[Edited 2012-09-02 13:16:25]
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
AA767400
Posts: 1892
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting B727FA (Reply 37):
And this is the problem: there are still people who think this was a game or "high school drama" and that they are somehow not culpable in their tacit approval of what happened. If the "membership" were TRULY hoodwinked and short circuited by the APFA leadership then why did they direct the union to continue the fight with TWU? I don't buy it--you MAY have been hoodwinked at first but for all of you who stayed quiet after the fact, you share the blame and shame. And ANYONE who proffered into STL is all but equal to a SCAB to me. You people took jobs from your union members! Shame!

Oh my.

Who exactly approved of their stapling? ALL 16,000 FAs did? Every Tom, Dick, and Harry's to blame for their stapling? Calling someone a SCAB is a bit dramatic.

You can say what you want, and blame who you want. Lord knows that you're looking for someone to hang. At the end of the day, calling someone a SCAB, and blaming people who had no control over what happened is just plain childish. Living with all that anger and bitterness helps no one.

I'm done with the shame and blame game.
"The low fares airline."
 
capejet
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:08 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:44 pm

I think the AA flight attendant union acted properly. It was their job to act in the best interest of their membership. In hindsight they were the only ones who had. If Don Carty and gang had acted in the best interests of AMR shareholders, they never would have purchased bankrupt TWA. The STL operation could not be turned into a profitable hub, it was not profitable for TW and AA could not make it profitable. In the end it had to be dismantled and AA downsized. Had the AA union allowed the TW employees to retain their seniority in some fashion then AA flight attendants would have been laid off too. In reality the former TW flight attendants are lucky to have the opportunity to go back to work at the airline as TW was a failed company and probably would have simply gone out of business (especially with 911 happening soon after). That is no one's fault except TW management from Carl Icahn all the way down the line who made bad decisions like selling the Heathrow routes, etc. and retreating to a city (STL) that was really unable to support the level of service TW needed to operate a decent sized hub. So now these flight attendants have an option to return to their old jobs. Had Don Carty and gang not made one of the biggest financial airline blunders of all time that would not be happening.
 
User avatar
b727fa
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:21 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting capejet (Reply 39):
It was their job to act in the best interest of their membership.

That's where you are have adopted the lie that APFA sold to SOME of their members. The TWA FA's *were* APFA. The union protected SOME of the members and had an epic fail on the DFR.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 38):
Who exactly approved of their stapling? ALL 16,000 FAs did? Every Tom, Dick, and Harry's to blame for their stapling? Calling someone a SCAB is a bit dramatic.

You can say what you want, and blame who you want. Lord knows that you're looking for someone to hang. At the end of the day, calling someone a SCAB, and blaming people who had no control over what happened is just plain childish.

The APFA leadership did; with the approval of the FA's who stayed silent in the matter. It may have been a "trick" by leadership, but after the fact, the members CONTINUED the trick by re-electing them and endorsing the challenge to the law suit. You personally may not have known what happened, but you CERTAINLY knew after the fact and yes, 16,000 FA's could have stopped the continued injustice...even after it happened. As for the SCAB comment, I said "all but equal to a SCAB" and I limited that comment to the STL proffers who knowingly bid INTO STL and knowingly displaced other APFA FA's! Even though there was no strike, when you take a union job from someone you are a professionally corrupt person.

If anything is childish it is the repeated mantra that "It's not my fault, I was only following what my leaders told me to do." If you didn't challenge them (after the fact--I'll give you that) you're complicit in the injustice. Say what you will insulate yourself if that's what you need to do--but at least be honest with yourself and others and acknowledge that "16,000 FAs" didn't do the right thing when they realized what their apparently renegade leadership did.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
capejet
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:08 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:21 pm

If I were an AA flight attendant at the time of the TW purchase and had only 2 years seniority, I would expect the union to protect my job security just as much as they did for the AA flight attendant with 25 years seniority. The junior AA f/A was paying union dues just like the senior AA f/A, the union had an obligation to represent them both. The purchase was being made with money AA had earned through the endeavors of the 2 year f/A just as much as the 25 year f/A. Had the AA union agreed to integrate the TW f/A's into the seniority lists then the 2 year AA f/A would have been laid off. I think the TW F/A's got a real good deal out of this, they continue to get called back to fly even though their company failed.
 
AA767400
Posts: 1892
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting B727FA (Reply 40):
If anything is childish it is the repeated mantra that "It's not my fault, I was only following what my leaders told me to do." If you didn't challenge them (after the fact--I'll give you that) you're complicit in the injustice. Say what you will insulate yourself if that's what you need to do--but at least be honest with yourself and others and acknowledge that "16,000 FAs" didn't do the right thing when they realized what their apparently renegade leadership did.

I understand your anger and frustration at AA's FAs... wait, I don't. I understand TW FAs being angry, but what's your beef? Judging by your age, you only have a couple years left at an airline. Enjoy your last few years at your current airline, and move on. What's done is done.

You can say no one stopped it. You can say they're SCABs. And you can hate them, and wish ill on all of them, but remember this - All that negative energy you harness shall backfire on you.

And who knows, with this US/AA merger, they might just get their original seniority from TWA. However, I highly doubt that will make you content.   
"The low fares airline."
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 2963
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:15 pm

I'll be the first to admit I was too young to know all of the intricacies of the TW takeover. But people need to remember, this was a takeover, not a merger. AA had no fiduciary responsibility to the TW FAs. And as much as I dislike the APFA, their obligation at that point was to the AA FAs. People can bitch about fairness all they want, but this wasn't a merger of equals, this was a BSD taking over an iconic airline that was a shell of its former self.

Had AA not bought TW, their flight attendants would've been without jobs altogether when TW liquidated. In that scenario, the TW FAs would have had to start elsewhere at the bottom of the totem pole. Sure, they wouldn't have been strung along, but their situation wouldn't have been much different.

With that said, I truly feel for the TW employees. There's no question they got the short end of the stick. I can't imagine putting in 25+ years at a company only to get the middle finger. But this was an airline that was closing in on its 3rd bankruptcy in 10 years. They weren't in a good place before the acquisition, either.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:23 pm

And now for a dose of free market reality for everyone who thinks the world (or AA) owes ex-TWA employees a living....

Quoting usxguy (Reply 2):
How safe are these jobs?

Much, much, safer than the original TW jobs were. These ex-TWA FA's should be grateful they were recalled. TWA would likely have filed for Chapter 7 after 9-11 if left to its own devices.

Quoting skycub (Reply 4):
I can say that I work along-side several women who came from TWA and each of them is a class-act
Quoting skycub (Reply 4):
These women are hard-workers and seem to truly enjoy their job.

A class act? Hard working? These are meaningless motherhood statements. TWA had high unit costs and militant unions elected by these so-called hard working class acts.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
What AA did to the TW flight attendants by stapling them to the bottom of the seniority list was unconscionable.

What AA did was fine. The only alternative for TWA post 9-11 was, at best, another Chapter 11, and more realistically Chapter 7.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
It showed a level of arrogance to dismiss tens of years of faithful service that I have never seen in my 38 years in the airline industry.

AA is a business run by business people. They are not running a social service for 38 year employees. As for so-called faithful service.-- I would argue TWA was equally, if not more, faithful by employing these people for 38 years.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 42):
I understand TW FAs being angry, but what's your beef? Judging by your age, you only have a couple years left at an airline. Enjoy your last few years at your current airline, and move on. What's done is done.

Well said. These TW FA's have no one to blame but themselves for the sorry state that TWA found itself in post 9-11. Management and owners are to blame also -- but labour and unions are right up there also as causes of TWA's demise.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
airtechy
Posts: 544
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:18 pm

Delta has bought/merged with at least four other carriers. I don't seem to remember congress having to pass a law to prevent any "merger inequities " with their combined flight attendants from happening again. Maybe management controlled mergers are better than union controlled mergers.
 
User avatar
b727fa
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:21 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:31 pm

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 42):
I understand your anger and frustration at AA's FAs... wait, I don't. I understand TW FAs being angry, but what's your beef? Judging by your age, you only have a couple years left at an airline. Enjoy your last few years at your current airline, and move on. What's done is done.

Who are you to assume my age on anything? Why would you say I "...only have a couple of years left?" What possibly gave you that idea?

I've had to start over several times and it's been because of shut-downs, mergers, etc. I've done what I had to do and I'm proud to fly where I do now. 9/11 took the wind out of my sails and it's been a struggle. But through it all I never had a union working against me...thankfully!

How do you know I didn't work at TWA? Why can you not understand my "beef?" When the wrong thing happens I have a problem with that; and I owe nobody an explanation for why I feel XYZ. It doesn't matter WHY I believe APFA was wrong; I do.

Believe it or not, I'm a happy person; well liked by passengers and colleagues. I can be all those things and still think what APFA and individual FA's did was wrong--even vehemently so.

Just telling people to get over it and "move on" and "what's done is done" is to attempt to forget what happened and to accept the responsibility for one's part in the process. Ignoring it doesn't make it "un-done." It's very convenient to say "move on" when you're not the one who's lost in the situation.

I feel sorry for you that after all this time, you still feel like nothing wrong happened and that it's "childish" and "high school drama" to hold people accountable to the truth and the hard ugly realities of what transpired. It's never going to go away. That legacy of APFA will be around forever; if nothing else but through the Bond-McCaskill Ammendment.

It's interesting that my points regarding the DFR, the proffers/fence busting, and that they were APFA members are consistently ignored. You can try to patronize me and tell me to "move on" all you want; that would be convenient for you.

Good day...
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
AA767400
Posts: 1892
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:40 am

Quoting B727FA (Reply 40):
I said "all but equal to a SCAB" and I limited that comment to the STL proffers who knowingly bid INTO STL and knowingly displaced other APFA FA's! Even though there was no strike, when you take a union job from someone you are a professionally corrupt person.

You do realize the majority of FAs that proffered into STL were forced to? You really need to get your facts straights.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 46):
I feel sorry for you that after all this time, you still feel like nothing wrong happened and that it's "childish" and "high school drama" to hold people accountable to the truth and the hard ugly realities of what transpired. It's never going to go away. That legacy of APFA will be around forever; if nothing else but through the Bond-McCaskill Ammendment.

You can feel sorry all you want. You're out of touch with reality, and need to get a grip. You make it sound like the AA FAs are a bunch of criminals that need to be thrown in jail. And with you hammering on about it, it most certainly won't go away. The horse is dead, and I'm done. Accept - and move on.
"The low fares airline."
 
User avatar
b727fa
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:21 pm

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:12 pm

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 47):
FAs that proffered into STL were forced to

You can't be "forced" to proffer...that's the point. Sheese...

You seem to know a lot about me based on your opinions of me--my seniority, my mental health, my age--but you still haven't addressed my points.

Answer--and move on. Truth is not on your side here.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
flyfree727
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:11 am

RE: AA To Recall Last Of Furloughed TWA F/As

Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting B727FA (Reply 48):
Quoting AA767400 (Reply 47):
FAs that proffered into STL were forced to

While not the exact "terminology" used at AA, your point is correct.

After the huge furlough of 2003, most STL fa's were forced transfers by AA. Many had no desire to be there and it took years for them to "proffer" back to their original/desired base.

AA ORD