jetfuel
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Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:39 am

Qantas is on the verge of signing an alliance deal with Middle Eastern airline Emirates as early as next week, in an effort to stem large losses on the kangaroo route to Europe.

An announcement will follow with Frankfurt being pulled.

Ultimately it will be EK serving European destinations for Qantas.
Rumour has it that QF may lease some LHR slots to EK

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/qanta...-20120831-2558r.html#ixzz256Sl1t4E
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
PanHAM
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:08 am

IMHO not a smart move at all but dictated by facts, unfortunately. Now, why should passengers fly EK from Europe to DXB and then continue on QF instead of going EK all the way? This simply does not make sense. Especially not since EK serves all majore Australian markets at least daily

I can understand that QF pulls FRA, they had twice delays of 12 hours within 7 days due to that idiotic curfew regulation. But giving up Europe altogether? No services north of Singapore, or better India, at all?
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smi0006
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:08 am

Interesting, times ahead.

I personally don't want to see this come to pass. I still don't think QF and EK are the best fit. I feel QF and QR would be a much better fit, they can grow together- with EK and QF only EK will grow, with a small potential for QF to hub through DXB to Europe where EK has already maxed out its rights. But what aircraft will QF use for this? And apart from using QF's rights to Europe, this alliance seems to have little benefit for EK, they don't need a domestic network partner, with ADL they cover all major cities with an impressive Trans-Tasman service to boot!

QR on the other hand only has MEL and PER with no additional rights into Australia, QF could feed the DOH hub from SYD and BNE using their routes, QR can also still grow Europe. They also serve a number of secondary European and Middle Eastern niche markets that would be of significant benefit to QF that EK don't serve (ZAG, ESB, BEG). When QR does begin to have issues with rights into Europe then perhaps QF will have the 787s to serve Europe through DOH, a decade down the track.

Furthermore wasn't there a press release from EK or QF saying a deal was 6-months away, now its being announced this week? I will try to find the quote, I am skeptical. Still if it comes to pass will still mix things up in the Australian industry.

This will be very interesting if it indeed comes to pass ( I remain skeptical about these rumours ), rumours are still persistent regarding QR joining oneworld. How would this work? Whilst I recognise many airlines codes-share outside their alliance, the scale and scope of this rumoured deal between QF and EK would be unprecedented outside of an alliance would it not. How can alliance partners BA,

I doubt we will see FRA being pulled, however perhaps it may be re-routed via DXB?
 
jetfuel
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:14 am

QF can dump SIN completely and merely fly to DXB and let EK connect with another 30 cities in Europe. It will be sold as opening up over 100 new destinations for Qantas customers. Even SYD-DXB-LHR is more profitable as the fuel burn/loads are way kinder to the A380

HUGE changes ahead. Qantas doesnt need SIN - they will leave that for JQ
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
alangirvan
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:26 am

I thought that Qantas had leased two pairs of slots to BA - the ones for HKG to LHR and BKK to LLHR, and BA are also dropping their own LHR-BKK-SYD service, so they would be at least re timing their LHR-BKK service. Can any one identify what BA are using these slots for. Since they are leases, Qantas might take them back eventually.

How many other airlines will be affected by the curfew at FRA? It may not be the only thing, but it may have been the last straw. Cathay and every other airline that flies to Asia has to deal with the curfew.

Perhaps Qantas could have dealt with it by routing the aircraft into an Australian port where a curfew does not matter - ie PER or MEL or BNE. Or FRA could return as a daylight departure from FRA, and then a daylight flight from SIN to SYD. Any option seems better than dropping the port.
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:35 am

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 4):
Cathay and every other airline that flies to Asia has to deal with the curfew.

Not really a problem for a lot of Asian airlines with lunchtime departures from FRA arriving in asia earlier morning. longer connections yes...
 
alitaliadc10
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:39 am

Orbis non sufficit
 
mdavies06
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:42 am

For EK, I think a large part of what EK can gain in this deal is access to QF's FFP. If QF and EK do offer reciprocal FFP benefits than this will give EK a much larger access to the Australian flyer base than it does now. Otherwise, what is there for EK to gain given that EK is already a much bigger player than QF in the Kangaroo route?

From QF point of view this gives them a nice way to further exit from UK and Europe which is beneficial to QF's bottom line. This is a net positive.

IMO I think EK needs this deal done more than QF because I don't think QF needs a strong presence in the European market to maintain its international market share from Australia. This is because they have already lost so much market share through the last decades and QF is never in any market just for prestige. However, with the European market slowing, increased competition from other players (some of which are more nimble) and EK having grown to its present level of market share, it will soon run out of potential to grow in this market.
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:43 am

Looks like it's actually happening... I'm just hoping that the relationship extends to QFF/Skywards as well -- earning QFF points flying EK would be excellent.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
I can understand that QF pulls FRA, they had twice delays of 12 hours within 7 days due to that idiotic curfew regulation

The delays this week have been caused by an aircraft going tech on the 27th. They have been turning the inbound QF5 aircraft (which arrives in the morning) to operate the previous evening's QF6.

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 2):
I still don't think QF and EK are the best fit. I feel QF and QR would be a much better fit, they can grow together

I absolutely agree -- I think QF stands to make a lot more out of a relationship with QR.

The biggest problem I see is that QF doesn't really have the time and resources to invest in a relationship with QR. They are looking for a quick fix to quite a significant issue, and EK offers them far more straight away.

Of course, had QF leadership responded to this issue a few years ago then things would have been totally different. They've (this management and the previous one) let things go way too far before searching for alternative solutions, and unfortunately this means that they are in a very weak position when it comes to entering new partnerships.

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 2):
I doubt we will see FRA being pulled, however perhaps it may be re-routed via DXB?

Fleet constraints mean that there will have to be cuts next year. It's a bit of a wasted opportunity if they do cut it though, given EK's constraints to Germany. Perhaps they could reroute a daily LHR A380 to FRA, and fly daily to both cities, leaving EK to carry what is left of the LHR traffic?

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 3):
Qantas doesnt need SIN

SIN is still a significant local market for QF. If they want to be a player in the (rather large) Australia-Asia corporate market, then yes they do need SIN, as much as they need HKG and NRT. I wouldn't expect it to see as much service as it does today though, if the EK relationship works out.
 
Quokkas
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:05 am

Quoting jetfuel (Thread starter):
an alliance deal with Middle Eastern airline Emirates as early as next week

I saw this posted in the West Australian but thought I'd wait until something definite appeared. http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-.../alliance-tip-for-qantas-emirates/

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 7):
Otherwise, what is there for EK to gain given that EK is already a much bigger player than QF in the Kangaroo route?

QF would be sending passengers to EK rather than LH, AF or other carriers serving Europe. EK will need to fill all those A380s they have coming.  
Quoting qf002 (Reply 8):
It's a bit of a wasted opportunity if they do cut it though, given EK's constraints to Germany.

EK still has plenty of opportunity to expand in Germany. They are not limited by aircraft type or frequencies, just by the number of destinations they may serve (four) and they pretty much cover the populous areas. Question is, if QF do dump the FRA frequencies, will the slots go to EK or can QF lease them to someone else?
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
weebie
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:27 am

Australians are obsessed with flying EK. For that reason I can't see why going with QR would help.

I personally don't like it but if it gets them back in the black well then they have no choice.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:28 am

The QF slot is up for grabs in that case, but who wants a slot at 22h30 at FRA? It is practically worthless even if slots would be sold here. . But haven't heard so far that slots are traded.

EK can offer hourly services by A380 from 4 destinations in Germany to DXB. If it would be feasibloe to relocate the QF FRA flight to STR or BER is beyond my knowledge. Especially if EK could slap a EK flight no. to the QF service.

The Transport Ministry might not be amused.
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:44 am

How the mighty have fallen. I hope in the long run that QF is not marginalized by this move, but I do think EK is going to enjoy the agreement.

-Dave
-Dave
 
Carpethead
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:49 am

The beginning of the end for QF.

1. Everything west of SIN taken care of by EK.
2. NH and/or VA jump on TYO-Australia.
Bye-bye QF in Japan (albeit JQ presence at NRT & KIX) and they can codeshare on JL.
3. Too bad SQ never received the OK to do Australia to US.
4. NZ can takecare of everything east of Australia.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:13 am

Quoting carpethead (Reply 13):
2. NH and/or VA jump on TYO-Australia.
Bye-bye QF in Japan (albeit JQ presence at NRT & KIX) and they can codeshare on JL.

Big step isn't it? Neither NH or VA are currently, nor likely will be soon, on the AUS-TYO market, while QF maintains SYD flights, and JQ flights from OOL and CNS. Its only other competition (direct anyway) is JL, which isn't really competition given they are both in One World.

Quoting carpethead (Reply 13):
3. Too bad SQ never received the OK to do Australia to US.

I don't think it would have made a difference, given the entrance of VA and DL onto the scene, it is currently quite saturated (IMHO anyway).

Quoting carpethead (Reply 13):
4. NZ can takecare of everything east of Australia.

I assume by this you mean the small Pacific Islands? America wise, QF has South America covered with there own service and LAN. Then they have a strong partnership with AA and services to 3 North American destinations (+ HNL).

This will have a big effect on QF, sure, but will only really effect European ops (+Changes to SIN to accommodate, but wait and see on that). It will also increase numbers on QF Domestic, as EK passengers will feel they only have one choice to book with domestically. It will also strengthen Trans Tasman routes (sure EK operates, but not to QF frequency).

In terms of a loss at SIN... QF would know the number of passengers that terminate at SIN, and those that connect on to Europe, so they will likely change flights to accommodate that.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:44 am

The more I think about this "deal" between QF and EK, the best way to describe it would be, from the QF point of view, comitting suicide in fear of death.

I have seen such deals in the freight business, where a large player contracted another large player for pick ups and deliveries in areas which they did not cover. At the end of the day, the smaller partner was always victim and either gobbled up or made redundant otherwise. At the end of the day the biz was picked up by third parties and all lost except the consultants and the banks who acted as intermediates.

If QF does not want, or cannot make money on European flights, and that is a situation most European carriers are facing since years, the logical answer is to team up with European carriers serving SIN BKK etc and exchange passengers at these points.

Jumping into bed with the reason for the mess they are in is amazingly bad management. Even though it may make sense on the paper now, the long term implications will be that QF becomes a regional carrier. At best. I am sure that this has not been part of the calculation.
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skipness1E
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:56 am

Reminds me slightly of Pan Am downsizing, always hoping they find somewhere to stop. They kept cutting but never found a viable and profitable core operation.

[Edited 2012-08-31 03:19:48]
 
CXfirst
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:57 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
Now, why should passengers fly EK from Europe to DXB and then continue on QF instead of going EK all the way?

Perhaps, with the new QF pax (and already full EK flights), EK simply cannot handle the amount of passengers, so passengers will be forced to use QF as well.

Anyway, I do agree that QR would be better than EK for Qantas (although I'm glad, as I'm still hoping for QR in Star Alliance).

10 years ago, European Carriers were leaving Australia. Now, it seems the reverse is happening....

-CXfirst
 
SA7700
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:12 am

Quoting carpethead (Reply 13):
Everything west of SIN taken care of by EK.

Could you kindly confirm with a source that e.g. LHR and JNB would be included in the "West of SIN" as you have stated it?


Thanks and regards,


SA7700
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mariner
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:20 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
The more I think about this "deal" between QF and EK, the best way to describe it would be, from the QF point of view, comitting suicide in fear of death.

Since we don't know what the deal is yet, I don't know how you can reach that conclusion.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
If QF does not want, or cannot make money on European flights, and that is a situation most European carriers are facing since years, the logical answer is to team up with European carriers serving SIN BKK etc and exchange passengers at these points.

Why team up with several airlines when you can achieve it all with one?

mariner

[Edited 2012-08-31 03:54:53]
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jetfuel
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:30 am

Thinking out loud here and considering the huge traffic volume that QF and EK could jointly share I can envisage flights to DXB (on either QF or EK metal) from

MEL
SYD
BNE
ADL
PER
CBR
CNS
TSV
OOL


All of these cities could then have a genuine one -stop service to over 30 European cities. In that respect it seems like a good deal for travellers

EK's destination list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_destinations

[Edited 2012-08-31 04:02:44]
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dcaviation
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:39 am

I don't understand this. QF is in alliance. If they really want to stop flights to Europe, why they don't lease the slots to another OneWorld airline?
To me, this looks like a slap in the face or kick in the growing to the entire OneWorld alliance.
 
aerosol
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:53 am

Slowly but too late the aviation world realizes what Emirates is going to do with these 90+ A380....
 
cmf
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:03 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
I can understand that QF pulls FRA, they had twice delays of 12 hours within 7 days due to that idiotic curfew regulation.

We know you hate the curfew but it is not the reason these flights did not take off as planned.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Quokkas
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:11 am

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 21):
why they don't lease the slots to another OneWorld airline? To me, this looks like a slap in the face

The questions would be whether it brings any benefit to QF and whether those OW partners actually want the slots in FRA.

Who are the OW partners? In Europe there is AB, AY, BA, IB, S7. With the possible exception of AB, would any of them bring a benefit to QF by receiving those FRA slots? QF already have a JV with BA and code share with AY via their respective hubs.

In Asia there is CX, JL and RJ. Flights to Europe with JL may add to the journey time and distance: CX and QF, for whatever reasons, have never worked closely; and RJ flights would add an extra stop. Given that many passengers prefer one-stop where possible, a link up with EK would have its attractions.

Until an official announcement is made everything is speculation but an agreement with EK might not preclude QF still maintaining agreements or code shares with the carriers it already has. It may simply mean that when booking a flight on QF's website an additional option with EK appears.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
PanHAM
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:12 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 19):
Why team up with several airlines when you can achieve it all with one?

I think that I explained it. They are teamed up anyhow with interline agreements. When LH stopped serving Australia they started offering through fares via various carriers, not only * mates like TG and SQ but with QF as well. LH has joined promotional fares with QF, QF uses LH for interlining in Europe. That leaves all the options open. But selling the soul to EK , and that's what it looks they are doing, is the worst case scenario.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 16):
Reminds me slightly of Pan Am downsizing,

Me too, and TWA as well. At the end these carriers did not have enough money to paint the jetways at their JFK terminals.
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UAL777UK
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:18 am

I just get this, to me this is looking like a slow death of QF.

I wonder what BA think of this?
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:27 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
I think that I explained it. They are teamed up anyhow with interline agreements

An interline is not a code share.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
But selling the soul to EK , and that's what it looks they are doing, is the worst case scenario.

(a) I don't know that Qantas is "selling its soul" to Emirates - I don't know what the deal is - and (b) even if it is as you suggest, I certainly don't think it is the worst case scenario, for Qantas and Australians.

It isn't only about Europe.

mariner
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:28 am

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 26):
I wonder what BA think of this?

Same here, they surely must not be amused at this news. Also, will this mean the entry of Emirates into Oneworld ?!?!
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jetfuel
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:34 am

Qantas cant offer 1 stop flights to 25 odd European Cities like EK so how can they compete?? NO pax wants to go via SIN and then LHR and then onto their destination. EK and 1 stop has just made QF unattractive and uncompetitive

QF has looked for another carrier(s) to try and offer a viable joint venture and there is nobody , VA has got into bed with a middle east carrier and I am sure the way QF looks at it its better to make the enemy your friend than to keep losing the war.

If EK and QF come to some agreement, so that EK doesn't destroy QF, and they both have equal flights into DXB this may just work

QF flights into LHR are fine BUT who wants to go to London?. If you look at all the alternative EK destinations of course people are going to fly EK instead
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:41 am

Lovely ... AA and AB are dating EY, while QF goes to bed with its biggest rival EK, but somehow QR is the one still rumored to join oneworld ??
 
jetfuel
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:44 am

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 30):
Lovely ... AA and AB are dating EY, while QF goes to bed with its biggest rival EK, but somehow QR is the one still rumored to join oneworld ??

This brings up another issue - Is One world really that important to QF any more????
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
BA174
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:49 am

So I presume this will almost defiantly be the end of the QF LHR crew base. Its a shame as they already lost work when the HKG and BKK flights stopped.

Any news on what BA are planning to do? I think they'll use this as a prime opportunity to bin SYD. Would NZ be interested In joining OW from star to pick a BA feed up that they lost through the BD buyout.
 
seansasLCY
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:50 am

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 30):
QR is the one still rumored to join oneworld ??

BA is flirting with QR at the moment.

I think these alliances all need redoing. So many changes now maybe they should just have a pause and allow everyone to get in the right bed.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:56 am

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 30):
Lovely ... AA and AB are dating EY, while QF goes to bed with its biggest rival EK, but somehow QR is the one still rumored to join oneworld ??

Makes a lot of sense doesn't it...NOT!   
 
PanHAM
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:58 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
An interline is not a code share.

yes, interline is more flexible . The average passenger does ot care anyhow.

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
t isn't only about Europe.

good, but what are the real benefits for QF except of "offering one-stop services to 25 or 30 European destinations? That still leaves a couple of hundred which require another transfer.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 24):
ant the slots in FRA.

what slots? An arrival slot at 5 am? I mentioned already that departure slots at 22h30 are worthless at FRA, even if they had a price tag on them which they have, AFAIK not.

Even if wre did not have a curfew and delays would be allowed, 22h30 could only be used for intercont flights.
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peanuts
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:04 pm

Let's call it what it is and cut all the fluff: The Capitulation of QF is in full swing.
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:09 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
yes, interline is more flexible . The average passenger does ot care anyhow.

Some interlines may be. Some interlines don't give the pax all the code share goodies. And so this passenger does care.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
good, but what are the real benefits for QF except of "offering one-stop services to 25 or 30 European destinations? That still leaves a couple of hundred which require another transfer.

I said that it isn't only about Europe. It opens up the whole of the Middle East as a one stop to Qantas pax. Lebanese Australians, as one example, would be within one stop of the old country.

And if this is to be Euro-centric, then the huge Greek populations of Australian would be within one-stop of the old country, too. Or the Turkish Australians, etc, etc.

But really, I'm just doodling. I have no idea what may be announced, no one here does - or if anything will be announced.

So really this is all just the standard a.net rush to judgement.

mariner
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:32 pm

Quoting carpethead (Reply 13):

The beginning of the end for QF.

1. Everything west of SIN taken care of by EK.
2. NH and/or VA jump on TYO-Australia.
Bye-bye QF in Japan (albeit JQ presence at NRT & KIX) and they can codeshare on JL.
3. Too bad SQ never received the OK to do Australia to US.
4. NZ can takecare of everything east of Australia.

         Think you're dreamin'

QF are not the only one doing it tough at the moment, look at significant losses at AF/KL, LH, IB/BA and in Asia CX even SQ are all legacy carriers doing it really tough. Fuel is the BIG cost at the moment for all airlines (except perhaps for middle eastern carriers? - actually even EK announced a huge drop in profit because of fuel prices) and something that a lot of people tend to forget - QF announced in the end of year results that fuel accounted for $4.3bn in costs up 18% - that is HUGE in anyones language.

BZF
Ansett Australia - (was) One of the worlds great airlines!
 
PanHAM
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:32 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 37):
Some interlines may be. Some interlines don't give the pax all the code share goodies. And so this passenger does care.

Alliances as well. If I go FRA XXX XXX departing on a * carrier ex FRA I might not get a single m&m mileage point.
In other words, no advantage over interlining which does give mileage point if the right carriers are chosen.

Quoting mariner (Reply 37):
I said that it isn't only about Europe.

I said "good".

Quoting mariner (Reply 37):

And if this is to be Euro-centric, then the huge Greek populations

Yes, I know, I met some of them 2 years ago in Athens. They all flew EK. So what's the deal for QF?


I use the editing function to add a few remarks,

All the places EK serves in the Middle east and Europe EK serves from their Oz cities already today. That business has been lost by QF years ago. Where is the additional benefit for QF they could not gain by interlining (which can certainly include code sharing (( look at LY and OS/LX )) ) outside and inside existing alliances?

[Edited 2012-08-31 05:42:18]
powered by Eierlikör
 
jfk777
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:55 pm

Will Qantas still fly their A380 from Sydney and Melbourne to LHR ? Via Dubai or Singapore ?
 
chris7217
Crew
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:13 pm

This is confusing:

QF is a major OW member and is now going to team up with EK, a huge competitor in Australia and big rival of QF since years.

I thought the meaning of an alliance such as OW means to work together and to benefit from each other.

What may OW and its major members think of this? Could it be a first step by QF to quit OW and to form an 'alliance' with EK? Maybe this is a new business model for others to follow but that would put, sooner or later, any alliance at risk.
 
jetfuel
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 40):
Will Qantas still fly their A380 from Sydney and Melbourne to LHR ? Via Dubai or Singapore ?

Wait until September 6. Rumour has it the EK execs arrive on EK412 and there is likely a press release then. If you try and book EK on EK412 SYD-AKL you will see it is cancelled on Thu 06 Sep, 2012. So maybe they are using the plane that day for a PR event. Just what I hear

As far as LHR goes this is a good question - they may keep it alive initially via SIN, then change to via DXB and then ultimately who knows.

This time next week we will know more
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
dcaviation
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 24):
Who are the OW partners? In Europe there is AB, AY, BA, IB, S7. With the possible exception of AB, would any of them bring a benefit to QF by receiving those FRA slots? QF already have a JV with BA and code share with AY via their respective hubs.

So this shows that OneWorld is OneJoke alliance.
 
jetfuel
Topic Author
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 43):
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 24):
Who are the OW partners? In Europe there is AB, AY, BA, IB, S7. With the possible exception of AB, would any of them bring a benefit to QF by receiving those FRA slots? QF already have a JV with BA and code share with AY via their respective hubs.

So this shows that OneWorld is OneJoke alliance.

100% agree. Its not working
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
skipness1E
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 43):
So this shows that OneWorld is OneJoke alliance.

I don't see how you conclude this? Can you explain?

Quoting chris7217 (Reply 41):
What may OW and its major members think of this? Could it be a first step by QF to quit OW and to form an 'alliance' with EK?

As things stand, QF has to survive and if they think that getting close to EK will accomplish this then Oneoworld nust come second.
Order of business
1) QF
2) Partners and alliances
 
hz747300
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:23 pm

Quoting chris7217 (Reply 41):
I thought the meaning of an alliance such as OW means to work together and to benefit from each other.

I agree, I would have thought to the major centers in Europe, Cathay would be an ok partner. EK's reach is undisputed for sure as far as the number of destinations in Europe, but I think ultimately it may be a bad move overall.
Keep on truckin'...
 
jetfuel
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:31 pm

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 46):
Cathay would be an ok partner. EK's reach is undisputed for sure as far as the number of destinations in Europe, but I think ultimately it may be a bad move overall.

Cathay and Qantas, despite being OW members are like 2 feuding cousins. With Jetstar opening Jetstar Hong Kong Cathay has absolutely no time for Qantas whatsoever.

I dont like this EK move but it makes sense, sadly. If Qantas can fly to DXB from every major Australian airport and offer a huge range of destinations that never could previously it makes EK a better choice than CX ever could. I hate flying EK's 10 across Y class and I am not sure how well that will go down with some QF pax

The other issue what happens to premium economy? EK has none
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:52 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 31):
This brings up another issue - Is One world really that important to QF any more????

If QF breaks from oneworld, immediately the SCL and DFW routes would be in jeopardy, while LAX would have to be cut back a bit.
 
tayser
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:14 pm

As much disgust I have for the so-called flag carrier of Australia, this, to me, is prudent.

Death knell? No, just an almighty reality check, more like.

It's poignant because it illustrates the shifting mentality - where 50 years ago (hell even15-20 years ago!) it was all about connecting ourselves to the most distant continent (Europe). There's still a massive amount of people who travel there, but really....... a carrier from the furthest point in the Southern Hemisphere expecting to service an entire continent from the most distance port (albeit the biggest) in that continent (London)? I'm surprised it took this long to clue on the fact there are better ways of doing it.

To me it makes perfect sense to ally yourself with a carrier where the longer leg is flown from Australia - rather than the longer leg from the mid-point to the European destination. Like how the Americans on this forum fail to see why QF didn't buy 777s and fly them to North America on higher frequencies as opposed to the 1x daily (or 2x daily in SYD's case) frequency of LARGE aircraft QF does to LAX right now - you dont need higher frequency of smaller planes to get people to /from Australia, you just need to focus on an area where there's going to be, in its own right, a lot of O&D pax (LAX) but offers a good transit hub for destinations beyond (LAX and SFO, notwithstanding geography (They are the best USA ports), fit this bill and it shows).

Large aircraft flying the long legs (LAX and DXB), then distributing passengers on smaller partner planes on short(er) hops (LAX-NYC/CHI, DXB-LHR/FRA/CDG) just seems far more palatable rather than flying via Singapore to London then backtracking everywhere - or like in the old days AU east coast to HNL and then onwards into North America.

Emirates is a brilliant example of how not focusing on one country's hub can pay massive dividends, EK started the foray into Australia to Melbourne via Singapore [and still flies the route!] and is now 3x daily for crying out loud!

Move the 4-5 A380s that currently fly MEL/SYD-SIN-LHR and return to just MEL/SYD/BNE/PER-DXB and return and then let EK take care of the rest to Western/Eastern Europe and North Africa, with SIN becoming a 330 [and eventually a 789 in 2016] terminating destination from all the main points in AU given the strong economic links that Australia has with South East Asia.

Like Virgin, I hope QF copy the model of forgetting about alliances which are a load of tosh, and just select partners on who is far more capable - West of Australia VA & EY are a good fit, and East of Australia VA and DL are an equally good fit - the long legs are flown ex Australia and the short hops from the M.E. and US hubs.

That way they can focus fleets on the growing Asian markets - and serving them point to point from the various AU cities rather than lumping them in the long range European flights.

The real loser in this: S.E. Asian and Chinese carriers IMO. The Canton route to London/Europe? lol - irrelevant!

Kudos to QF, there may just be hope for you yet.

$0.02

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