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TK787
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Turkish Aviation September 2012

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:28 pm

Oh my...
What happened to summer, it is all gone now!!

Greetings again Turkish Aviation fans from a mild Istanbul evening.
Yes, more work and I am stuck here in Istanbul for another 3 weeks.
It is always interesting to take a look at our conversations daily though.

- I hear TK wet-leasing a 330-200.
- Very interesting debates on TK wide body seating configs.
- I will ask it again, where is the presidential 332???
- Any more news on GRU-EZE?

Thanks as always for being a part of this community and keeping our threads informative, fun and free of personal attacks or political mumbo jumbo.
I will try to be more involved once I have some free time.
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:35 pm

What about the additional THY flights to Tunis TK663/664 ? Are they seasonal ?
 
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OA260
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:39 pm

Thanks for the new thread. Although I didnt contribute much on the last I was following  
Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
What happened to summer, it is all gone now!!

Indeed cant believe where its gone but then again if you were in the British Isles we didnt get one  

It seems TK is still having issues with the ground product. I read on another thread an alarming experience from two J class passengers on a trip to the Far East. It seems out stations are also an issue . I wish they could get those sorted out as it degrades a really nice overall product.
 
gokmengs
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:32 pm

Hey TK thanks for the new thread as always.
Presidential plane is still in outfitting (LH Technik?), last I heard. It is taking a long time, as it should, plane was delivered green, and they are going to blow about 50-75 million dollars in furnishings, technology, etc. takes time...,

As for TK widebody configs I don't think its right sized. I think the allocation to comfort class is overdone, and the J class is suffering in size, it is getting very hard to find a J seat on North American flights especially JFK, And LAX.
As for the J config; 2-3-2. The experience of someone flying on the -2- seats side wont be same with 3 in the middle, as my mom just flew to LAX with my sister and they were on window side, she said very comfortable. However return was from JFK in mid secion and she said its a battle for elbow room in the middle seat. It shouldn't be that way. I am not totally against the 2-3-2 J, but it should be executed better I think. Just my 2 cents.
Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:46 pm

TK posts a second quarter profit of $105 million....

link: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...ines-results-idUSBRE88003I20120901

[Edited 2012-09-01 08:49:24]
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:26 am

Great news. No wonder stock price is up to 3,60 from below 2,50 a year ago.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:57 pm

Yes 1st THY half numbers were rather good and beat the market forecast.

Some details:
Revenue - 6.7bil TL (+36%)
Passengers - 18mil (+20%)
ASK - +19%
RPK - +24%
Load Factor - 75.2% (+5.7%)

39% of passengers flying TK were transfers clients.


In other TK news - for those that are tired of the hazelnut snacks on TK, they will begin offering packs of dried Malatya apricots later this year as well.

Additionally TK is in the process of researching a corporate sensory logo - a signature brand scent that will be used on aircraft and lounges. Recently 2000 cabin crew and passengers participated in survey comparing different smells - everything from jasmine to ocean to pine and lots of different combinations.
While many might laugh at this, branding a scent has been proven to influence brand perception and effect consumer behaviour. For example such scents are employed by hotels, shopping centers, auto dealers, and other airlines.
From what I hear the scent will likely be a flower based one as its seems to have gotten the most favorable results in the survey.



And lastly - MNG last week took delivery of its first A330F.


photo courtesy of Airbus.

As I had previously mentioned will be interesting to see how MNG utilizes this aircraft. Unlike the older A300 fleet, this costly new aircraft needs to stay busy to pay for itself. MNG has stated its seeks to pursue more scheduled service operations, however in the past it has had a difficult time often having to returns to ACMI and charter flying instead.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:31 am

Turkish soccer/football club Galatasaray will apperantly fly in style (hopefully on the pitch as well  ) this season. The image in the article suggests a 737 with winglets. Apperantly Airplus aviation is doing the paintwork and refurbishment with a reduced seating capacity for 78 pax. Can't wait to see the real thing...

Link: http://www.airnewstimes.com/g-saray-...-aslan-gibi-ucak-17095-haberi.html (Turkish)
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:33 am

Quoting tcm (Reply 7):

Thanks for the news.
The scheme is average at best, but why the need for this? Is this for the champs league or domestic away games and such also?
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:49 am

Quoting TK787 (Reply 8):
The scheme is average at best, but why the need for this? Is this for the champs league or domestic away games and such also?

Agreed looking at image the scheme does look uninspiring. AFAIK, such lease arranegements are popular in the U.S. with sports teams ( 2012 Ncaa Football Charters (by flySFO Aug 29 2012 in Civil Aviation) ) This might be part of a sponsorship deal. I would think this is for all their away fixtures both international and national.
 
777way
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:10 pm

Airblue to start SAW-LTN from Winter schedule as reported in another thread.
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:30 am

TK Facebook page says:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151149242307760&set=a.139834532759.108963.90430042759&type=1&theater
Free wi-fi? Looks like a single aisle to me.
How many planes have this?

[Edited 2012-09-04 22:33:56]
Sorry can not link, but it is on the TK page of Facebook, about free wi-fi


[Edited 2012-09-04 22:35:56]
 
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OA260
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:33 am

Quoting TK787 (Reply 11):
http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/PhilipOA260/tkwifi.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151149242307760&set=a.139834532759.108963.90430042759&type=1&theater
 
leftyboarder
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:39 am

Yesterday was the first flight for Djibouti, which replaced Khartoum as the stop en route to Mogadishu. And today - just days after Nouakchott as a new destination - TK has announced Aden in Yemen. The flights will be routed via Sana'a. There it is: http://airlineroute.net/2012/09/05/tk-ade-oct12/

Further, SHGM has signed a new civil aviation agreement with Gabon. We can expect Libreville anytime I guess. The agreement gives "Turkish aviation companies" (read TK) the chance to use Douala and Port Harcourt as stops en route to Libreville as well as Pointe Noire, Brazzaville and Luanda as tag ons with full 5th freedom.

Finally, DHMI has published figures for end of August. IST still growing like crazy, AYT stagnating, ESB and ADB as well as SAW growing slowly. Source: http://dhmi.gov.tr/istatistik.aspx
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 13):
Yesterday was the first flight for Djibouti, which replaced Khartoum as the stop en route to Mogadishu. And today - just days after Nouakchott as a new destination - TK has announced Aden in Yemen. The flights will be routed via Sana'a. There it is: http://airlineroute.net/2012/09/05/t...ct12/

I am really curious if these destinations have a future or if they are served just to collect destinations. In long term this will work for sure, but in short term... Time will tell us. BTW it was reported that TK now is 5th in number of total destination in the world and 1st in europe and 2nd in the world in terms of destinations from a single hub, overtaking Air France. Only Delta has more (maybe in ATL?).

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 13):
Further, SHGM has signed a new civil aviation agreement with Gabon. We can expect Libreville anytime I guess. The agreement gives "Turkish aviation companies" (read TK) the chance to use Douala and Port Harcourt as stops en route to Libreville as well as Pointe Noire, Brazzaville and Luanda as tag ons with full 5th freedom.

Brazzaville? Isn't it just opposite to Kinshasa on the other side of the river?? Does this make sense? (Also Air France is serving both airports)

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 13):
Finally, DHMI has published figures for end of August. IST still growing like crazy, AYT stagnating, ESB and ADB as well as SAW growing slowly. Source: http://dhmi.gov.tr/istatistik.aspx

IST already has overtaken MUC and FCO and has become europe's 6th busiest airport. With growth keeps stable this year at 21%, IST will have had 45 mio. pax in 2012 ! Another 10% growth in 2013 and IST will become one of the lesse than 20 airpots in the world serving 50+ mio pax/year... What is the capacity after increasing runway capacity ?
 
LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:42 pm

Regarding all the African destinations, I believe its important to remember all markets already have established traffic flows to Europe, and new growing traffic demand to Asia.

THY is not trying to create something new or be the first one to plant a flag in any market (except maybe Somalia), but instead wants to simply divert the existing traffic to route via IST versus historic gateways like Paris.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ASA
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 14):
Brazzaville? Isn't it just opposite to Kinshasa on the other side of the river?? Does this make sense? (Also Air France is serving both airports)

But these two citites are the capitals of two different countries! And they are not in real good terms also, if I remember correctly. So traffic wise, these two cities are probably different markets altogether.

Still, TK going crazy in Africa. This is a lot of routes ... China maybe a new source of traffic, but all these cities all around the continent? I wonder if Kotil even knows how many cities he serves in Africa  
 
leftyboarder
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:00 pm

I don't think IST terminal can exceed 50m. It already looks like a zoo in there. And compared to the airports of the last decade with high ceilings, skylights, large waiting areas and better layout (think new BCN, KUL, LHR T5...) it is severly outdated IMHO.
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 16):

But these two citites are the capitals of two different countries!

I know that. One is french-Kongo the other one belgian-kongo.
They are even closer than Buenos Aires and Montevideo (also separated by a river / bay), but Montevideo barely gets served in contrary to Buenos Aires.

Turkish economy itself is growing in Africa. There are also rumours that they just open that destination of the Gulen schools...

BTW Airex in Istanbul begins this Friday. Maybe some orders this weekend ?
 
777way
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 10):

apparently a hoax posted by hackers on their FB page, so specultion of SAW might be valid.
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:46 am

Quoting ASA (Reply 16):

Still, TK going crazy in Africa. This is a lot of routes ...

Well, Topcu of TK mentioned two years ago that TK wants to double its destinations in Africa to 35. I guess we are almost there. Anyone counting?
TK is doing all it can, from;
-Serving everywhere from IST up to 2-3 hours with single aisles.
-Serving what it can with its current LH fleet to Asia and N.America.
-Utilizing 739s at off hours at IST to long haul destinations, for connecting pax in mind.

Regional jets and 787/350 type service come to mind next. That is easier than bunch of 77W/330 or bigger service and competing with EK, LH and others in a world economy the way it is.
 
emrecan
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:19 pm

Emirates' A380 A6-EDC is in IST now for Airex..
 
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 20):
Well, Topcu of TK mentioned two years ago that TK wants to double its destinations in Africa to 35. I guess we are almost there. Anyone counting?

yes - a list or map of Africa routes would be great. thanks in advance to the poster!

Quoting TK787 (Reply 20):
TK is doing all it can, from;
-Serving everywhere from IST up to 2-3 hours with single aisles.
-Serving what it can with its current LH fleet to Asia and N.America.
-Utilizing 739s at off hours at IST to long haul destinations, for connecting pax in mind.

I think that's a smart move - especially utilizing the night hours to get Africa services going.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 20):
Regional jets and 787/350 type service come to mind next. That is easier than bunch of 77W/330 or bigger service and competing with EK, LH and others in a world economy the way it is.

yes - a 787/350 strategy would be a better choice to make TK more efficient and opening new doors than go head-to-head with the Manatee flyers! even if not for that ... atleast to appreciate the long waiting a-nutters like us 
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:28 pm

If you have any questions for TK CEO... (no later than 7 a.m. Friday)

See: http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...-for-turkish-airlines-ceo/840155/1
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:34 pm

And TK still considering a revised tender...

See: http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...-six-widebody-planes-chairman-says
 
ASA
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:39 pm

Thanks, tcm! Posted three questions on the board ... let's see if Kotil picks them up!  
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:33 am

Quoting tcm (Reply 24):

Thanks for the post, 6 frames a good start.
-Do we have any clues what seat configs a possible TK 748/380 might have? I imagine all 3 class.
-Can JFK support 2 x 380s year around? (rather than 2-3 77W/333 combo)
-Can LAX support a daily 380?
-What Asian cities need 380?

Thanks,
 
northstar80
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:24 am

Quoting tcm (Reply 24):
And TK still considering a revised tender...

this is a freaking joke! one month they decide that they urgently need VLAs. Next month they change their minds and now they no longer need VLAs. The month after that, they decide they again need VLAs.

I wonder if the aircraft vendors still believe them. What a joke management!
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:32 am

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 27):
this is a freaking joke! one month they decide that they urgently need VLAs. Next month they change their minds and now they no longer need VLAs. The month after that, they decide they again need VLAs.

I wonder if the aircraft vendors still believe them. What a joke management!

You are not the only one to think so. There is a guy named Sefa Inan is writing about Turkish Aviation. Well i do not know about his expertise but i like his articles. In one of his latest articles he is also criticising this with the words "Havacılığı internetten öğrenen THY yönetimi..." which can be translated as "the management that learned aviation from the internet...". There are also people believing how genius they are. Anyway. Everybody is free to have his own opinion.

Regarding to their credibility among plane manufacturers: i cannot remember where i read it but according to that Boeing wanted to bring their 748 to Airex but than pulled it out.
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:31 am

Airbus has, ironically, EK send one of their A380s to the Airex show, probably playing on TK's EK envy. The manufacturers will always be after a possible order, TK is a customer, Business 101. For TK it is crucial that the new airport is ready. I guess they want to see how things develop in regard to the world economy and the new airport. Therefore deferring a board decision to end year. As to the capabilities of TK management, the numbers talk themselves, no need for me to repeat them again. However, they should talk less to the media for sure...

[Edited 2012-09-07 02:46:20]
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:14 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 29):
For TK it is crucial that the new airport is ready.

3rd Bogazici Bridge preliminary work has started, which will be crucial for the 3rd airport.
Latest news that the 3rd airport, 1st phase will be operational in 2016.
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 29):
For TK it is crucial that the new airport is ready.

It is a very bad situation right now. Not knowing when the new airport will be finished and what the first phase offers. Does anybody know how this airport will look like. They will go for tenders this month and nobody knows how this airport will look like. Is there a masterplan or sth ? How can an airport built within 3-5 years ?? All examples in the past took much longer time for cunstruction BKK, MUC, HKG, ICN etc etc. If you add planning, tenders etc this easily passed one decade. It can't be in anyones interest if sth is being built and lots of money is spent in the future to correct possible mistakes.

Quoting tcm (Reply 29):
As to the capabilities of TK management, the numbers talk themselves, no need for me to repeat them again.

I remember the link to a TK presentation you posted in the last blog, this one:
http://www.turkishairlines.com/downl...ations/presentations/june_2012.pdf
And i carefully read it again and i it consists of
p.2-10
growth in market share and capacity and destinations. agreed
p.11
- efficiency: more pax per employees: they want to hire employees, so this does only count partly intentionally
- increased daily flight utilization ok nice, but the more planes you have the more combination possibilities you get for efficient plane-route planning
p.12-13
fleet planning
p. 14-15
growth
p.16
revenue information
p. 17
revenues grew more then expenses: could mean management is doing better or could mean last year TK flew with overcapacity (in combination with load factor numbers)
p.18-19
cost per ask fluctuating over time. no idea what that could mean
p. 20
numbers on expenses: shows that fuel has an impact on expense growth
p. 21-22
financial status compared to other airlines. this doesnot tell how good management ist because we do not know how this numbers would be like with another management
p.23
personnel/pax ratio seems to be high. we don't know how this would look like when they had the numbers of flight assistants they are needing. on the other hand, you need to plan and find this flight attentants on time.
p.24 average consumption going down (fleet is growing with modern and less consuming aircraft) this is good of course
p.25 some information about currencies
p.26-27, 32-end information on awards, sponsorships, subsidiaries, aviation academy
p.28-29 financial tables
p.30-31 TK cargo is growing

Puhhh, got tired. Ahmmm, i cannot find any data that show this management being good. I also cannot proof from this numbers that they are bad (this i can only say from what i see as a customer and what i get from media). So if you say " the numbers talk themselves" than you should be capable of prooving from these numbers that they are good. I am quite excited about this and very very curious. Please keep in mind that we do not know how the situation would look like with any other management, so saying they made XX profit last year says nothing as we cannot know if another management would have made XX+1 or XX-1 profit. On the other hand: are you financial expert that you talk so firmly ? Just asking, no intention to offend you.
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 31):
" the numbers talk themselves"

If I could interrupt here;
-TK made profit 2nd quarter, $100m. or so
-TK flies to record number of destinations and still being profitable

and it is always helpful to have the Turkish authorities to be on TKs side when allocating slots at IST, and having Ajet and Sunexpress on TK's side to minimize domestic competition. Plus, none of that nuisance, like strikes by the FA's a la LH.

This all point to a well managed company; profit, growth, not bad safety record, no significant domestic competition, no problems with labor unions, two years in a row Best airline in Europe award....
 
LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:49 pm

Like the management or not, in cooperation with the government going back to Ozal days, an bold vision was planted for Turkish Airlines, and this is what is being followed up on.

Having been involved with Turkish aviation for a long time, I personally believed much of it was fantasy when I first heard it also, and figured I’d be very happy seeing with a TK having 50-60 airplanes. (I remember the days when they had mier airlines, and have done so all the while still making a profit.

I think everyone deserves a big kudos for achieving such a remarkable feat.

So instead of endless throwing tomatoes, to me the Turkish nation should be very proud of THY today, and recognize the achievement.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 31):
Puhhh, got tired.

Me too  
Quoting TK787 (Reply 30):
3rd Bogazici Bridge preliminary work has started, which will be crucial for the 3rd airport.
Latest news that the 3rd airport, 1st phase will be operational in 2016.

I hope so for the sake of TK and the economy in general. The Mayor announced that the metro connection will be ready before the opening of the new airport.
 
leftyboarder
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:46 pm

As much as I would want to see the 3rd airport in place ASAP, I can't believe that a long suspension bridge, hundreds of kilometers of highway, a very large airport, a high speed rail to connect both the two sides of the city and the airport and a subway line / airport express all will be ready in 4 years. The airport alone is estimated to cost 10bn dollars. Add the cost of the other portions and this could be very difficult to even finish, let alone finish on time.
 
cuban8
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 29):
For TK it is crucial that the new airport is ready. I guess they want to see how things develop in regard to the world economy and the new airport. Therefore deferring a board decision to end year

Funny thing is, the A380 (and to a certain extent the B748) were partly build for busy, high-volume airports. Sounds to me that TK would be in more need of these planes today when looking at the slot staturation at Atatürk   

Quoting TK787 (Reply 32):
and it is always helpful to have the Turkish authorities to be on TKs side when allocating slots at IST, and having Ajet and Sunexpress on TK's side to minimize domestic competition. Plus, none of that nuisance, like strikes by the FA's a la LH.

This all point to a well managed company; profit, growth, not bad safety record, no significant domestic competition, no problems with labor unions, two years in a row Best airline in Europe award....

I don't think this points to a well managed company at all. Let me dissect your opinion.

Profit? Well, as long as the government is backing up with the big bucks for aircraft acquisitions, commercial exposure and hindering the competition both domestically and internationally, I will take these numbers with a pinch of salt.

Growth? Yes agreed, on that part they can only compete with the gulf carriers.

Not bad safety record? All depending on how many years in the past you're looking at. If you're looking overall since the start, I guess they're almost able to compete with Aeroflot. If you are talking about the last 10 years or so, the same or even better safety record can be said about all Turkish companies.

No significant domestic competition? Does that mean the company is well managed? I would rather say the opposite. Pegasus would kill TK on domestic routes any day of the week if there was a fair system in Turkish aviation. But hey, Air Koryo is killing competition out of North Korea with government support as well  

No problem with labor unions? Perfect, taking away the rights of their employees to go on strike reminds me of the good ol' times of communism. Definitely good communication on the management part. Democracy at its best.

Two years in a row best airline in Europe award? Well, I have to admit that on the food part TK is outstanding. On the rest, I'm highly doubtful. If AF, LH or BA had the same government donors that TK is benefiting from, I suspect TK would not be on top of that list.

All that being said, there are good things about Turkish Airlines and as many others, I see a huge potential in TK as well as Turkey. Taking away the rights of their employees and trying to monopolize routes with government support domestically is not what I call a good management (It's is also the wrong way to go according to me). It's more a way of hiding the lack of management that a company like TK needs to use these kind of methods.

Even though I'm harsh in my critique, I hope nobody gets offended.

Cheers
When business goes to hell, you get rid of three things. Your private jet, your yacht and your mistress..........and most importantly in that order.
~ Russian Billionaire ~
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:47 am

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 36):
Profit? Well, as long as the government is backing up with the big bucks for aircraft acquisitions,

Nope, TK finance their aircraft acquisitions through private institutions.

example: http://www.ascendworldwide.com/2011/...s-a330-a321s-and-737-ng-order.html

They even received the 'Best Financing In Europe' award, through a survey of 350 airlines around the world, by the Airfinance Journal in 2008.

see: http://www.turkishairlines.com/en-in...est-financing-in-europe-award.aspx

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 36):
hindering the competition both domestically and internationally

Turkish civil aviation has seen a Renaissance over the last few years. The sector was liberalized. There has never been so much competition as there is now.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 36):
I will take these numbers with a pinch of salt.

TK is a ISE listed company. Their financial reporting has standards.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 36):
No significant domestic competition? Does that mean the company is well managed? I would rather say the opposite. Pegasus would kill TK on domestic routes any day of the week if there was a fair system in Turkish aviation. But hey, Air Koryo is killing competition out of North Korea with government support as well

There is domestic competition (there wasn't before) and PGS is reaping the benefits of the liberalization of the sector. TK will always have a market on domestic routes. Comparing TK to Air Koryo and Turkey to North Korea is unfortunate if not immature.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 36):
No problem with labor unions? Perfect, taking away the rights of their employees to go on strike reminds me of the good ol' times of communism. Definitely good communication on the management part. Democracy at its best.

Talking about a level playing field. Are the employees of PC and KK allowed to strike? How do their contract terms compare to those of TK? While I agree that the right to strike is a delicate issue, IMHO, looking at the state of airlines in the west, I would hate to see TK fall to the same position of its western counterparts while carriers like EK and QR take over the market.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 36):
Two years in a row best airline in Europe award? Well, I have to admit that on the food part TK is outstanding. On the rest, I'm highly doubtful. If AF, LH or BA had the same government donors that TK is benefiting from, I suspect TK would not be on top of that list.

TK is successful and beating the competition because they offer a better product at a better price, at a profit.

I hope I haven't been to harsh either  
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:58 am

Quoting TK787 (Reply 32):
-TK made profit 2nd quarter, $100m. or so

How do you know that another management wouldn't have made $200m. ? These numbers are not a proof.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 32):
-TK flies to record number of destinations and still being profitable

Hmmm, i always thought that destinations should add value to an airline and therefore contribute to profit...

Quoting TK787 (Reply 32):

This all point to a well managed company; profit, growth, not bad safety record, no significant domestic competition, no problems with labor unions, two years in a row Best airline in Europe award....
Quoting cuban8 (Reply 36):
I don't think this points to a well managed company at all. Let me dissect your opinion.

Exactly. I also do see a lack of argueing here. I cannot say anything on TK's safety record or how TK is backed by the government (despite of trying to limit the employees' striking rights protected by the constitution), but you owe us an explanation why "no significant domestic competition" points to a well managed company. The example of Air Koryo that gave cuban8 is of course not applicable for Turkey, but it shows that this assumption is wrong.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
So instead of endless throwing tomatoes, to me the Turkish nation should be very proud of THY today, and recognize the achievement.

I am proud: No camel killing on the ramp for the past 5 years.
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 36):
I hope nobody gets offended.

I hear you, definitely not my style of management, but I look at it this way; it works.

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 38):
How do you know that another management wouldn't have made $200m. ? These numbers are not a proof.

I believe in numbers. TK is profitable. TK stock closed at 3.90 this week up from 2.50 year ago. I imagine you can count this as profitability.
I have no idea if another management would have made more or less profit.

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 38):
why "no significant domestic competition" points to a well managed company.

If a company is not well managed, this vacuum could be filled with competition. If TK was a poorly managed company; Pegasus, the largest competitor, would have quadrupled in size in the last few years. Maybe like Ryanair vs. AerLingus.

This are just my ideas and you all know I am no economist.
 
gokmengs
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 23):

If you have any questions for TK CEO... (no later than 7 a.m. Friday)

See: http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...-for-turkish-airlines-ceo/840155/1

I asked about their targets for the next 5 years, and with what destinations additional aircraft are they trying to realize those goals.

Also under a different question I asked why they hire so many "almonds" for the administrative jobs. Lets see if he will answer....
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Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:31 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 39):
I believe in numbers. TK is profitable. TK stock closed at 3.90 this week up from 2.50 year ago. I imagine you can count this as profitability.

Aha, so you believe that stock exchange values are a product of logical behaviour and thinking...?

Quoting TK787 (Reply 39):

This are just my ideas and you all know I am no economist.

The same with me.
 
JU068
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:10 am

Pegasus applied to launch flights from SAW to Belgrade but it seems they were turned down by the Serbian Civil Aviation Directorate... unfortunately. Jat Airways and Turkish Airlines will operate up to three daily flights.
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:16 am

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 41):
Aha, so you believe that stock exchange values are a product of logical behaviour and thinking...?

I believe, if you were to put $1000 last year to TK stock and it is worth $1500 today, this is profit you can see. This makes me think TK is profitable to share its profit, and this leads me to think they are well-managed, financially.
I "wish" to think that "stock exchange values are a product of logical behavior and thinking", since every time you see a video clip of stock markets, all you see is monitors full of numbers.
Can you imagine a stock market full of lava lamps and crystal balls?
All investors believe that markets will act logically, otherwise no one will put their hard earned money into stock markets.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:07 pm

I think this argument about the management is a bit academic.

Questioning the results of TK management is like saying could different management at Lufthansa, Pegasus, Apple, Toyota, etc create different outcomes for those companies.
Sure other team might have different results, but those results might be better or they could be worse.

At the end of the day, the path THY has taken since the late 1980s under various management teams has brought TK to where it is today -- one of the globes largest airlines, and one that is rather well received product wise compared amongst its peers.

This was not an easy accomplishment, and many parties including the employees, the government and yes the management deserve big kudos for shepherding a small loss making state enterprise into a top global brand.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 44):
This was not an easy accomplishment, and many parties including the employees, the government and yes the management deserve big kudos for shepherding a small loss making state enterprise into a top global brand.

That is amazing. 15 years ago, who would have considered TK as the growth engine they are today.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
JU068
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:03 pm

Could someone tell me when did Turkish Airlines start to change? And what were the first steps taken?

Thanks.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:31 pm

First real change was under Turkish prime minister than president Ozal in the mid/late 1980s.

Ozal took personal interest in the airline, and brought in outside management breaking the tradition of TK being a patronage job for former air force generals. For instance Ozal was the one that saw the potential of Turkey being a bridgde to the world and wanted TK to link the continents. The order of the A310 fleet (at the time the largest civil foreign currency transaction by the Turkish state) was under his term.

The first true new leader of TK was Dr. Cem Kozlu, a US educated Turk that strong international business experience.

Lots of things changed under Kozlu. Everything from branding, to more fundamental things like how the timetable worked. For instance Istanbul-Paris prior might have been daily, but it was served at different times at differnent days based on aircraft rotations. New schedule pattern was developed which eventually turned into the hub schedule that we have today. Also new first time investment were made in IT across the company, outside advisers were brought in including SAS Scandinavian Airlines providing management experts. Strong focus was made on ontime performance and customer service. The fleet was expanded with the then large 737-400 orders.

Basically the work done during these early years served as the foundation for future management teams.

Of course one would be remiss if one would not mention other changes occurring at the same time which had positive impacts on THY.
The broader Turkish economy grew greatly as well under the liberalization that Ozal was pushing, the middle class and consumer society grew as a result, and Turks started to take to the sky instead of taking buses. Additional things like government removing domestic ticket taxes, heavily investing in airport projects also greatly benefited the industry.


I believe a couple years ago we had a good discussion about all this.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:43 pm

Had a rather nice short flight on TK yesterday.. Flew a 737-800 (TC-JFU) between IST and PRG. Some notes:

* IST was a complete mess... It was apparently shift change at around 14:30 - 15:00. At one point, for about 20 mins, there were 2 agents serving around 150 pax. Naturally some verbal fights broke led by myself  

* Passport control and security was a breeze. I like the new centralized security system.

* Boarding was done by groups and was not too messy.

* The plane was one of the older ones delivered in 2000 but was still in a rather good shape.

* Pushed back early and took off 17 mins late but landed 10 mins early.

* The service was extremely poor. Not because of the crew but because of the number of crew. There were a total of 3 F/As and 1 cabin chief for a completely booked flights. They handed out the menus and hazelnuts while we were still on the ground. Nowadays TK flies with 1 less F/A and it creates a lot of problems with service. They could hardly finish the service on this 2:10 flight. This is why the service was a complete mess. There were 2 options. Chicken or aubergine. Naturally, many people wanted chicken but they ran out half way. I overheard people saying the aubergine was awful. The chicken was barely warm as they did not heat them up enough due to time constraints. Only 1 crew was smiling but she had just started working last month so she was not as tired as the others   Most of the extra requests were ignored. They really need another F/A for full flights...

The most important thing is that I arrived safely. I had a "happy landing" as the captain suggested  
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JU068
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RE: Turkish Aviation September 2012

Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:21 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 47):

Cool, thanks for the explanation! It is nice to see that the government didn't go back to its old ways later on!

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 48):
Nowadays TK flies with 1 less F/A

Why is that?