US Airlines 757 To Europe - Triangle?

futurestar68 · Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:45 am

Hey!

Just re-joined airliners.net after a few years of absence! And I wanna bring up a topic I've been wondering about for a while now. With the current economy situation and the axing of destinations in Europe, I thought that re-introducing triangle flights using B757 equipment could make sense for the big US players. They could also reach destinations which are too far east for a 757 to make the westbound leg. I would think that VIE would be a good example. A 757 could do the eastbound leg with ease, with flight times of around 8 hours at the most, the eastbound flight wouldnt be a problem for a 757. And it could stop at some destination in the UK or BRU or whereever would be a good point to start the westbound trip over the Atlantic Ocean. And VIE has always been that kind of destination which is interesting, but just not profitable enough to justify nonstop-service for US carriers with widebody aircraft, but it's too far east for a 757 to offer nonstop service to the US.

Any thoughts?

thijs1984 · Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:27 am

RTM could also forfill thesame role as BRU in this case. And RTM is still a untapped marked, there is a lot of potential out of RTM (however that is changing fast now with the new flights of BA an LH which will start soon)

nickofatlanta · Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:31 am

VIE and destinations in the UK seem a bit far away for a triangle route. I can not imagine too many passengers would want to board a flight from the US to the UK via Vienna! I could see this possibly working if it involved other cities closer to VIE that do not currently have service to the US like BSL? I assume that BSL is within 757 range of NE US.

[Edited 2012-09-04 02:32:19]

futurestar68 · Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:33 am

Quoting thijs1984 (Reply 1):
untapped marked, there is a lot of potential

Any airport that is like RTM would be possible I guess. A lot of potential, short ways, less crowded and no competition offering nonstop service to the US.

futurestar68 · Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:35 am

Quoting nickofatlanta (Reply 2):
VIE and destinations in the UK seem a bit far away for a triangle route.

That's true, especially since cities in the UK are pretty well covered with nonstops to the US. But with smaller towns in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium... I think that could work. I just used UK as an example really.

richierich · Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting futurestar68 (Thread starter):
With the current economy situation and the axing of destinations in Europe, I thought that re-introducing triangle flights using B757 equipment could make sense for the big US players.

I agree with your idea, it could work for some smaller markets that are just out of range of the B757 on the westbound leg. However I think there are too many political hurdles involved for a triangle route to work (taxes, landing fees, etc.) and from a customer perspective there are too many non-stop options to make it viable. Essentially the airline is selling a B757 non-stop flight on one leg and a one-stop (same seat) flight on the other... that's not very enticing.

frmrCapCadet · Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:19 pm

Are or have there been there any such triangular routes in the world? And how well did they work?

planeguy727 · Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 6):

There have been plenty over the years. Some still exist (Euro carriers to the carribean comes to mind).

I only see this working if US could get 5th Freedom rights and I believe that to be unlikely. Something like PHL-VIE-BHX-PHL.

ORDJOE · Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:10 pm

What happens very often is your intra EU leg flies half full at best or full of deep discount airfares. You already get good aircraft utilization US-EU flights, only 1 aircraft is needed with minimal turn around, there is not that much of need to keep further keep it in the air.
Cool idea, but with alliances these days it seems to make more sense to just work with BA, LH, AF/KL etc to get to these smaller cities

jetsetter629 · Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 7):
I only see this working if US could get 5th Freedom rights and I believe that to be unlikely. Something like PHL-VIE-BHX-PHL.

Speaking of which, US flew to BHX for a summer with their 752s. I can't imagine it was a very profitable route as it was cut only after one season

Viscount724 · Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 7):
I only see this working if US could get 5th Freedom rights and I believe that to be unlikely.

Not correct. All US carriers have unlimited 5th freedom rights on international sectors anywhere within the EU (and beyond, assuming the 3rd country outside Europe also grants 5th freedom rights) under the US-EU Open Skies agreement. The exception within Europe is domestic sectors entirely within the same country where they can't carry local traffic.

Similarly, all EU-based carriers have 5th freedom rights anywhere beyond the USA, again assuming they have the same rights from the 3rd country involved.

However, even with 5th freedom rights, the suggested triangle operation would be very uneconomic as you would only be operating the intra-Europe sector in one direction. Hardly anyone is flying one way only. And 5th freedom tag-on sectors have to be timed with the transatlantic service in mind. They intra-Europe sector will rarely be at peak demand times for traffic within Europe.

The days of that type of operation are over. The costs of operating the additional sector in Europe would kill the profitability of the rest of the route. Much better to use your alliance partners to points that can't be served economically nonstop in both directions.

[Edited 2012-09-04 13:47:27]

CO 757-300 · Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:54 pm

wouldn't this be totally pointless in the age of the TATL joint venture?

UA now makes the same amount of money routing a passenger EWR-FRA then on LH through to VIE as it would on EWR-BRU-VIE one stop service. conversely, as does LH.

the only potential financial benefit this could have would be the ability to charge a premium over competitors for a marketed same-plane service (assuming- which would not really be so due to the need to enter EU customs at the first arrival port)

on a side note- i'd say VIE would be a good 787 candidate from EWR.

rwy04lga · Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 6):
Are or have there been there any such triangular routes in the world? And how well did they work?

DL did ATL-GYE-UIO-ATL once IIRC. Also ATL-REC-FOR-ATL. Don't know how well they worked.

ogshelly · Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:55 pm

I think they should retire the 757 and offer a better bird to cross the pond, such as the A330, and soon the 787. Flying the 757 going to Europe made me feel like flying in a cheap low cost airline.

BRJ · Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:16 pm

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 6):

Are or have there been there any such triangular routes in the world? And how well did they work?

Alitalia has been running the triangle route (FCO-LOS-ACC-FCO) for many years, so I assume it works well for them.

Flight number: AZ844
From: Rome (FCO)
Departure time 14:40
To: Lagos (LOS)
Arrival time 19:25

From: Lagos (LOS)
Departure time 20:45
To: Accra (ACC)
Arrival time 20:50
Arrival day: Same Day
--------------------------------------------------------
Flight number: AZ845
From: Lagos (LOS)
Departure time 20:45
To: Accra (ACC)
Arrival time 20:50
Arrival day: Same Day

From: Accra (ACC)
Departure time 22:50
To: Rome (FCO)
Arrival time 06:25
Arrival day: Next Day

fly2yyz · Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:36 pm

TS has been operating a YYZ-EXT-NCL-YYZ route. I don't see why we are looking at multi-national triangle flight. Something such as a PHL-NCE-LYO-PHL could be a possibility for instance.

frmrCapCadet · Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:19 am

Interesting - thanks. Triangular routes are a little like the 3 planetary problem in physics - a little difficult. They can be categorized in a variety of ways. One long leg plus a short leg. Two long legs plus a short leg. I suspect that what makes them rare is a 737/320 hop is likely cheaper most of time. It would be interesting to see a study as to where and how they are the better solution.

fishmeal · Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:25 am

This was years ago and not involving a 757, but in 1983 we boarded a Pan Am 747 in Zurich that had just landed after an overnight from JFK. We flew to Munich where they herded us all off the plane while it was cleaned up for the return to JFK. For some reason I still have the unopened bottle of schnapps that I bought in the Munich duty free shop.

futurestar68 · Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:03 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
They intra-Europe sector will rarely be at peak demand times for traffic within Europe.

I don't agree on that. If you have that flight depart at let's say EWR at 4:30pm, it will arrive in VIE at around 6am, which gives you plenty connections to the morning bank from VIE to various destinations in Europe, of which especially the eastern Europe destinations will be of interest, and you could turn around a 757 within an hour or a bit more than an hour, which will give you a 7ish departure from VIE to the other city in Europe, where it'll arrive between 8 and 9, depending on which city you chose. So that's right at peak time. And slots is not a problem since we're talking about smaller airports here. Add another hour and a half there, and you'll have a 10 or 10:30 departure to EWR, and an arrival time there at around 12:30/1pm, which will give you plenty of connections there too. And you need only 1 plane for that too.

I think it could work. But I'm guessing the airlines know why they don't offer such a flight.

Quoting CO 757-300 (Reply 11):

on a side note- i'd say VIE would be a good 787 candidate from EWR.

That would be wonderful. But not gonna happen since OS will start service to EWR next year, and I can't see UA offering a second daily flight to VIE.

RWA380 · Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:27 am

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 6):
Are or have there been there any such triangular routes in the world? And how well did they work?

I think one of the longest running triangle routes I can think of is KL's AMS-JRO-DAR-AMS, At one time QF ran a PER-JNB-HRE-PER route.

iahmark · Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:45 pm

I can think of a few triangles routes mainly in Lat. America due to hot and high airports; routes like:

MIA-LPB-VVI-LPB (AA)
MAD-GUA-SAL-MAD (IB)
MAD-UIO-GYE-MAD (IB)

In all these routes the second and third cities in the triangle are maybe 1 hour flight distance tops, I think that’s the key to make it work (short flying distance).

COSPN · Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:36 am

Only 3 problems with this plan,

1. Excessive Taxes and airport fees

2. Excessive Taxes and airport fees

3. Excessive Taxes and airport fees

so doing an extra stop will make it a money looser ...

adriaticflight · Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:36 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):

However, even with 5th freedom rights, the suggested triangle operation would be very uneconomic as you would only be operating the intra-Europe sector in one direction

I think that tells all we need to know. With the high cost of fuel, the huge number of LCCs that link almost every country in Europe and the fact that nearly every commercial airport in Europe is 1 short hop away from a major hub means that this kind of flight will no longer make money. Back in the 1980s when political issues and a very restrictive market meant that triangle flights made sense. Personally i can't see any routes from the USA that would be particularly profitable as a triangle route that aren't already flown. Perhaps some charters but these by default don't have high yields. Triangle flights will remain in parts of the world where politics and geography necessitate it. Central Asia, South America and most of all Africa will retain triangle flights but Europe is so densely populated and so small as to negate any reason for these flights. On forums like these we often forget that Europe is small and packed with people who are (for the overwhelming majority) motivated by cost. If it was cheaper to operate flights stopping in multiple European cities believe me airlines would do it. The reality is that it is not.

Viscount724 · Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:57 am

Quoting futurestar68 (Reply 18):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
They intra-Europe sector will rarely be at peak demand times for traffic within Europe.

I don't agree on that. If you have that flight depart at let's say EWR at 4:30pm, it will arrive in VIE at around 6am, which gives you plenty connections to the morning bank from VIE to various destinations in Europe, of which especially the eastern Europe destinations will be of interest, and you could turn around a 757 within an hour or a bit more than an hour, which will give you a 7ish departure from VIE to the other city in Europe, where it'll arrive between 8 and 9, depending on which city you chose. So that's right at peak time.

But the question remains, who is going to book a carrier that only flies a route in one direction? And in my opinion a 7 AM transatlantic departure is much too early to be commercially viable, which is why there are virtually no such flights today.

frmrCapCadet · Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:02 pm

I could imagine a sort of triangle: Seattle and Portland to Barcelona say. Alternating days. Code share with Alaska (?) covering the hop for those who needed specific days. The code share would likely be way cheaper than flying a transcontinental on the Portland - Seattle segment. The big question, are the two towns provoding close enough to equal passengers to maintain the triangle, or would a 40/60 split get resolved by all flights from the bigger city?

Or Seattle to Rome/Barcelona with the same sort of arrangement. God forbid Ryan air provides the hops!

I cannot imagine equal leg hops working. A fantasy route flying the jet stream? Seattle - Tel Aviv - Bankok - Seattle! Fun for those wanting to go around the world, but cannot see how it would pencil out.

RWA380 · Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:29 am

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 24):
I could imagine a sort of triangle: Seattle and Portland to Barcelona say.

The close proximity of SEA and PDX make it an attractive triangle market. So far no carrier has done an Intl triangle between PDX and SEA. There have been Hawaii routes in the past, but I still think more carriers should look at PDX & SEA just this way, getting 2 well populated areas with one aircraft, which may just fill it on a more regular basis with some good revenue as well.

rogercamel · Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:59 am

Quoting brj (Reply 14):
Alitalia has been running the triangle route (FCO-LOS-ACC-FCO)

This route probably works because there are still many pax who would rather stay on an Alitalia plane than use an African carrier for an intra-Africa leg, and as a result accept the inconvenience. Not so much a concern to legs on European and American carriers.

Quoting iahmark (Reply 20):
In all these routes the second and third cities in the triangle are maybe 1 hour flight distance tops,

Also, the shorthaul legs tend to be relatively perpendicular to the long-haul leg - i.e. you are not sending passengers 1 hour in completely the wrong direction.

US Airlines 757 To Europe - Triangle?

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