Airboe
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O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:44 pm

Now we All know MOL again:
[i]

"We are in ongoing discussions with Boeing and as soon as we can reach an agreement on price we'll place an order. It could be the -800 or the Max, whichever they discount the most - we'd buy a dog if it was cheap enough.[i]


link: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...genuine-serious-commitment-376057/

MY guess is (take it for what it is worth) - they will make a deal of two reasons:

1: Ryanair need new planes bought at "reasonable" prices in their business model

2: BCA would love a solid order for let's say 150 of the 738 to keep the lines running smooth until the MAX is up and running. And I guess they will order for 100 MAX-8 A's well - to keep Comac out of the market.

Thoughts?


KR/
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phxa340
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:51 pm

Quoting airboe (Thread starter):
1: Ryanair need new planes bought at "reasonable" prices in their business model

Boeing and Ryanair have already agreed on prices according to many sources. It is the resale time frame that they are negotiating over.

Boeing does need to solidify a few more NG orders until they can ramp up MAX production.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting airboe (Thread starter):
BCA would love a solid order for let's say 150 of the 738 to keep the lines running smooth until the MAX is up and running.

They dont need Ryanair's order to keep the lines running smooth, and Ryanair knows it. (See AS and WN orders.....)

Quoting airboe (Thread starter):
1: Ryanair need new planes bought at "reasonable" prices in their business model

If I was Boeing, I'd tell Ryanair to put up and shut up or go elsewhere. I think Airbus still doesn't want anything to do with Ryanair. So, that puts Ryanair in a bind.

Ryanair is really pushing it with almost everyone. Where do you draw the line?! This bullying by them will only last for so long....... Pissing off people is not the way to go anymore, it may have worked for Ryanair in the past but not anymore.
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GIANCAVIA
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
I was Boeing, I'd tell Ryanair to put up and shut up or go elsewhere.

Good thing you arent at Boeing, Businesses like to make money not lose it because of personal opinions of one random guy.

Reality = $$$ Talks.. 1 million or 100 million, companies want to earn it and not turn it away.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 3):
Good thing you arent at Boeing, Businesses like to make money not lose it because of personal opinions of one random guy.

The loss of one customer does not break or make a company....in this case, Boeing. Boeing doesn't need Ryanair. It is Ryanair who needs Boeing since Airbus won't do business with them. Ryanair is small potatoes.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 3):
Reality = $$$ Talks.. 1 million or 100 million, companies want to earn it and not turn it away.

Boeing is doing just fine with WN, AS, UA, etc, etc.......
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canadianpylon
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
If I was Boeing, I'd tell Ryanair to put up and shut up or go elsewhere. I think Airbus still doesn't want anything to do with Ryanair. So, that puts Ryanair in a bind.

Saying something like tends to end the negotiations pretty fast, and everything in life is a negotiation.

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AirframeAS
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 5):
Never pee in the bowl of cereal you may have to eat.

Tell Ryanair that. Look at where their relationship is with Airbus at the moment..... This gives Boeing a lot of leverage. Lots of it!
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canadianpylon
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:11 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 5):
Never pee in the bowl of cereal you may have to eat.

Tell Ryanair that. Look at where their relationship is with Airbus at the moment..... This gives Boeing a lot of leverage. Lots of it!

Ya...Apparently he likes smelly cheerios.   

Seriously, though... MOL antics with Airbus pretty much leave him talking to Boeing. Boeing doesn't have to be as aggressive with Ryanair. Sure they want a deal, but they don't have kiss MOL's butt for it, either.
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AirframeAS
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 7):
MOL antics with Airbus pretty much leave him talking to Boeing. Boeing doesn't have to be as aggressive with Ryanair. Sure they want a deal, but they don't have kiss MOL's butt for it, either.

Agreed. Ryanair needs to work on their "people" skills if they want to get what they want. It's a fact of life. Piss off Boeing, they'll have a much harder time trying to get the things they need. I seriously doubt that Boeing consders Ryanair a VIP customer, much more of a thorn on Boeings side.
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mariner
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting airboe (Thread starter):
"We are in ongoing discussions with Boeing and as soon as we can reach an agreement on price we'll place an order. It could be the -800 or the Max, whichever they discount the most - we'd buy a dog if it was cheap enough.

Good line - "we'd buy a dog if it was cheap enough" - self knowledge is a great thing. I wonder why he upsets people so much.  

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-04 14:23:28]
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PH-BFA
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 7):

Boeing has a HUGE backlog for the 737NG and MAX. Why give away a large discount and block your production line for some serious time because O'leary threatens to order the C919.... Boeing is in a much better position than FR this time and they know that for sure. Just like FR knew they had the better bargaining position during last order, when the 737 backlog was much much smaller.
 
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
If I was Boeing, I'd tell Ryanair to put up and shut up or go elsewhere. I think Airbus still doesn't want anything to do with Ryanair. So, that puts Ryanair in a bind.

This would be Bombardier's wet dream. 150 CSeries orders wouldn't be so bad, don't you think?
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 8):
Agreed. Ryanair needs to work on their "people" skills if they want to get what they want.

Never ending profits, More and more passengers carried.. They know how to get what they want. MOL might be annoying loudmouth but I find it laughable people still underestimate him. I also find it amusing how people on this site just think a manufacturer will turn its nose up at hundreds of millions in profits not to mention "selling the most planes" which seems to get these companies overexcited every year as the fanboys on either side jump for joy. Boeing is a successful business, Luckily they aren't as naive or emotional as folks on here.
 
Airboe
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:35 pm

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 10):

Why give away a large discount and block your production line for some serious time because O'leary threatens to order the C919....


Well it could be much cheaper to keep Comac out of the market now than later.

However they could ask Leahy for a donation   
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AirframeAS
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:43 pm

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 12):
I also find it amusing how people on this site just think a manufacturer will turn its nose up at hundreds of millions in profits not to mention "selling the most planes" which seems to get these companies overexcited every year as the fanboys on either side jump for joy.

Like I said before, Boeing doesn't need Ryanair. Ryanair needs Boeing.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 12):
Boeing is a successful business, Luckily they aren't as naive or emotional as folks on here.

So is Airbus. By not providing anything to Ryanair, this hasn't hurt nor killed Airbus. The world does not revolve around Ryanair like Ryainair thinks they do.   

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 12):
Never ending profits, More and more passengers carried.. They know how to get what they want.

The more they treat the manufacturers like dirt, the more their life will be harder. Dint bite the hand that feeds you. Dint like it, take your business somewhere else. They can order the C919 for all I care, and I don't think A and B would care either. That doesn't hurt Boeing nor Airbus.

Quoting airboe (Reply 13):
Why give away a large discount and block your production line for some serious time because O'leary threatens to order the C919....

Exactly!   
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mariner
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
The more they treat the manufacturers like dirt, the more their life will be harder.

How are they treating the manufacturers like dirt? If anything, he's sending up himself by saying he'd buy a fleet of dogs.

  

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flyingcello
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:47 pm

The COMAC thing is a O'Leary firing a shot across the bows of Boeing (and Airbus). In reality, he knows that COMAC can't yet provide either a product or a supply chain to match B or A. The C919 will almost certainly have a poor dispatch reliability compared with mature western products (see the Superjet as an example), and FR cannot afford anything that damages their 'on time' reputation.

Also, with the fleet size he has, he won't want to spend lots of money on pilot conversion courses (although he might tell the pilots they have to foot that bill themselves).

So, Boeing will get a decent order, and MOL will pay a decent price, no matter what he says publicly. The only doubt in my mind though, is that John Leahy will step in with a tempting proposition...business is business, and a 200 frame NEO order would get a very attractive offer for MOL...and Airbus is known to be buying market share at the moment.
 
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:50 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
How are they treating the manufacturers like dirt

Remember how MOL shot off his mouth on how he "raped" Boeing and we never heard the end if it? And how he royally pissed off Airbus?

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
If anything, he's sending up himself by saying he'd buy a fleet of dogs.

He should really watch what he says, he might actually get a "fleet of dogs"..... And I'd let him, just to see how far that takes him.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):

If Boeing (or Airbus) gets offended at what a CEO says and lashes out in someway, well, that's a pretty bad business move. I'd be pissed off if I was a creditor and Boeing ran off a large customer just because he very indirectly compared the 737 to dogs... compared to what MOL has said before, this is pretty tame
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
If I was Boeing, I'd tell Ryanair to put up and shut up or go elsewhere. I think Airbus still doesn't want anything to do with Ryanair. So, that puts Ryanair in a bind.

Based on what I've read on A.net, this is similiar to the haughty attitude Boeing took when JetBlue was just starting up, ready to order their first jets. It seems Boeing took an LCC for granted...look at where JetBlue is nowadays and look at their fleet. I would bet based on that experience, Boeing has a poor relationship with JetBlue to this day.
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AirframeAS
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
I'd be pissed off if I was a creditor and Boeing ran off a large customer

Like I said before, and it warrants being said again: Boeing does not need Ryanair. Ryanair needs Boeing. Boeing has a HUGE backlog on the books for the 737 program. Boeing is in great shape at the moment. Ryanair is not Boeing's #1 concern right now, I don't think....

Quoting max999 (Reply 19):
Based on what I've read on A.net, this is similiar to the haughty attitude Boeing took when JetBlue was just starting up, ready to order their first jets. It seems Boeing took an LCC for granted...look at where JetBlue is nowadays and look at their fleet. I would bet based on that experience, Boeing has a poor relationship with JetBlue to this day.

The same with F9. At the same time, look where Boeing is today. B6 and F9 did not kill Boeing, nor the 737 program.
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q120
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:05 pm

I cant believe what I am reading here.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
f I was Boeing, I'd tell Ryanair to put up and shut up or go elsewhere. I think Airbus still doesn't want anything to do with Ryanair. So, that puts Ryanair in a bind.


This is so ridiculous.

Imagine Boeing or Airbus saying this:
"keep your millions Ryanair, we don't need them, we are now non-profit organizations, we are only building planes for those airlines we like"

FYI. A sale of an aircraft alone is NOT the only thing that makes the manufacture money.
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AirframeAS
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting q120 (Reply 21):
This is so ridiculous.

It may be ridiculous to you, but it is my opinion. So, please respect that.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:11 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
I'd be pissed off if I was a creditor and Boeing ran off a large customer

Like I said before, and it warrants being said again: Boeing does not need Ryanair. Ryanair needs Boeing. Boeing has a HUGE backlog on the books for the 737 program. Boeing is in great shape at the moment. Ryanair is not Boeing's #1 concern right now, I don't think....

Umm yeah Boeing doesn't NEED Ryanair but Ryanair is still about to write a check for millions and millions of dollars and it would be stupid for Boeing to stick up the middle finger and forfeit all that money. Ryanair isn't weaseling Boeing into doing anything, they negotiating, like every other company in existence. It just so happens that MOL makes some strange comments while doing it.

Boeing didn't have to give preferential pricing to AA either for their 737s and could've told them to bug off because they disagreed... well, you know where I'm going with all this
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:13 pm

Boeing would never tell an airline to "take a hike." It violates the most basic rules of business as a seller of products, "don't go out of your way to piss off the customer."

Yes I know folks will say FR does that all the time with their customers but FR is up front with those fees and costs for on board service. Their a/c fly full pretty much everywhere all the time.

I suspect Boeing will be polite and will listen and will give a discount but won't give away their bottom line for the sake of filling orders for an a/c that is already selling so well.

The alternatives for FR aren't so appealing, they'd have to transition to another a/c with the training and other issues that go with the switch plus take on an a/c that may not be as reliable. Not a pretty prospect for an airline famous for absurdly short turns.
 
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
It may be ridiculous to you, but it is my opinion. So, please respect that.

Hey, everyone has their right to an opinion.
But from the original post, its business 101.
Its all about money.
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AirframeAS
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):
Ryanair isn't weaseling Boeing into doing anything, they negotiating, like every other company in existence.

When one makes out of touch comments like what MOL said, as what this thread is about, this makes them look bad and makes the providing company not want to deal with MOL, which makes life harder for both parties. The moral of the story: Watch what you say, or karma will come and bite you in the ass pretty hard.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):
Boeing didn't have to give preferential pricing to AA either for their 737s and could've told them to bug off because they disagreed...

You're right, they didn't have to. But they did. Boeing can do whatever they see fit when they sell airplanes. It is their choice. I'm just saying what I would do if I was Boeing, dealing with the rubbish that Ryanair does to spite Boeing as I said earlier....something about "Raping" Boeing, for example.
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AirframeAS
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 24):
Boeing would never tell an airline to "take a hike."

You sure about that?? You should research this one....

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 24):
I suspect Boeing will be polite and will listen and will give a discount but won't give away their bottom line for the sake of filling orders for an a/c that is already selling so well.

Even if they do, I suspect Boeing will tell Ryanair to get in line in terms of delivery slots since Boeing is very much backed up. Or....they could say "Hey, we are sold out. Sorry." They have done this before, and they can do it again.
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:25 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 27):
Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 24):
Boeing would never tell an airline to "take a hike."

You sure about that?? You should research this one....

I'm happy to be corrected. All Boeing has to do is say no to any proposal from any airline that doesn't meet their bottom line criteria. I'd be surprised if Boeing has ever followed that up with basically, "don't come back!" That's my view on what the phrase means and most folks who sell things for a living don't go out of their way to alienate people.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:28 pm

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 28):
I'm happy to be corrected.

F9 and B6 as stated earlier.

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 28):
I'd be surprised if Boeing has ever followed that up with basically, "don't come back!"

I'm pretty sure Boeing hasn't followed up.

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 28):
That's my view on what the phrase means and most folks who sell things for a living don't go out of their way to alienate people.

What puzzles me is that it is ok for a customer (Ryanair) to alienate their providers (Boeing), but their providers cannot stand up for themselves?
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max999
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
The same with F9. At the same time, look where Boeing is today. B6 and F9 did not kill Boeing, nor the 737 program.

I don't deny that businesses discriminate their customers to a degree (certain ones are just more valuable), there's something to be said with the potential for a huge order that Ryanair can bring. Because of their size, it's hard to ignore the amount of revenue when it comes to Ryanair, despite the shit that their CEO says. So I think it would make terrible business sense for Boeing to take the attitude you have.
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29):
What puzzles me is that it is ok for a customer (Ryanair) to alienate their providers (Boeing), but their providers cannot stand up for themselves?

Because "the customer is always right" - especially when the customer generates so much revenue for the provider.

Quite simply, it may very well be true that Boeing doesn't need RyanAir, but they do want them. Assuming FR can get WN-level pricing Boeing will still clear over a USD billion in profits on a 200 frame order just on the deliveries. Add in the ancillaries over a decade or more, and that's probably worth another USD billion, easy.
 
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:43 pm

Some people are button-down types in the public persona. We all know O'Leary isn't. He may be saying that for a reduction in prices he will be the swing buyer of whatever plane will be most convenient to Boeing to be selling, as switch over time comes. And also in defense of O'Leary he knows what price he needs in order to exlpand, or to make a profit. He seems to do this very well - don't plan on flying his airline myself.
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:45 pm

'Ryanair is small potatoes' would be one of the silliest phrases I have heard for a long time. Sure, one airline is not the be all and end all, but to say FR is insignificant to Boeing or any other supplier is simply daft.
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AirframeAS
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 33):
'Ryanair is small potatoes' would be one of the silliest phrases I have heard for a long time. Sure, one airline is not the be all and end all, but to say FR is insignificant to Boeing or any other supplier is simply daft.

The point I was trying to make, in which case you obviously missed, is that Ryanair is NOT the only customer that Boeing currently has.
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airliner371
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:51 pm

No manufacture other then Boeing, Airbus and Bombardier can offer planes in a timely manor and since the last deliveries are so soon, either order one of these aircraft or don't grow for a long time. Bombardier would be the CS300 and that is probably to small for Ryanair's liking so that leaves Boeing and Airbus.

Quote:
Never ending profits, More and more passengers carried.. They know how to get what they want. MOL might be annoying loudmouth but I find it laughable people still underestimate him. I also find it amusing how people on this site just think a manufacturer will turn its nose up at hundreds of millions in profits not to mention "selling the most planes" which seems to get these companies overexcited every year as the fanboys on either side jump for joy. Boeing is a successful business, Luckily they aren't as naive or emotional as folks on here.

Thats because they are getting the current planes for dirt cheap and then they can grow for alot cheaper. Once they have to start paying something for planes the growth won't be as profitable and they won't be as profitable.
 
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zckls04
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:35 pm

In my experience the customers who are the most troublesome during the sales process are the ones who are the most troublesome thereafter as well. Often they can have unreasonable expectations and make life highly unpleasant for those who have to deal with them. I don't know a lot about how these things work in the airline industry, but I'd imagine this is more of an ongoing business relationship than a one-off transaction.

Remember companies aren't monoliths- they're composed of individuals who may wield considerable power when it comes to deal-making. Annoy those people enough and they will soon realize that it isn't worth their while dealing with you, and if it hurts the business so what? The effect on them will be comparatively minimal. Money isn't always the overriding factor. It might be bad business, but I don't think it's fair to say it never happens.
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:52 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
The same with F9. At the same time, look where Boeing is today. B6 and F9 did not kill Boeing, nor the 737 program.

I think they did the same thing with NK. The thing is, the more customers, the better. B6 has grown into quite a successful airline and more orders means more profit.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
They can order the C919 for all I care, and I don't think A and B would care either. That doesn't hurt Boeing nor Airbus.

Why build competition for yourself? I'd rather have one competitor than two, especially when the second is a state owned entity of a large, growing country not afraid to intervene in markets. While Ryan Air isn't the be all and end all, it would provide a visible and reputable Western customer, plus a laboratory to run out kinks in real life operations.

In short, who cares what O'Leary says? He runs his mouth all of the time and no one pays much attention to it. As long as his check doesn't bounce and he doesn't say anything actually damaging, let him do it.
 
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InsideMan
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:53 pm

Quoting q120 (Reply 21):
Imagine Boeing or Airbus saying this:
"keep your millions Ryanair, we don't need them, we are now non-profit organizations, we are only building planes for those airlines we like"

More like "we are tired of giving you airplanes for free and would rather sell them to someone who is paying better (where we actually make money!) so either pay up or go elsewhere"
 
 
AirframeAS
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:01 am

Quoting aa757first (Reply 37):
Why build competition for yourself?

This goes beyond, way beyond competition. This has a lot to do with bad mouthing & taunting your provider and making life miserable for everyone involved. Reply 36 has a pretty good explanation on that. You don't want negative tension in a business deal.
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mariner
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:25 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 36):
In my experience the customers who are the most troublesome during the sales process are the ones who are the most troublesome thereafter as well.

All true, but Boeing - for example - has been dealing with this supposedly "troublesome" (according to a.net) character for many years and is quite used to his ways.

At the time of the notorious order for 737's (the "rape" claim) came at a time when Boeing had lost several big orders and didn't intend to lose Ryanair.

It was in large part because of those lost orders that Boeing changed its attitude to the upstart LCC's.

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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 39):
This goes beyond, way beyond competition. This has a lot to do with bad mouthing & taunting your provider and making life miserable for everyone involved. Reply 36 has a pretty good explanation on that. You don't want negative tension in a business deal.

But it's Michael O'Leary. It's kind of like the alcoholic relative who starts hurling baseless insults after two martinis. Everyone discounts it right away.

What's much more damaging is leveled criticism from more reputable people. Branson's very public frustration over delays of some Boeing aircraft (can't remember which) after they had labor issues strikes me as much more damaging.
 
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:42 am

Quoting q120 (Reply 21):
This is so ridiculous.

Imagine Boeing or Airbus saying this:
"keep your millions Ryanair, we don't need them, we are now non-profit organizations, we are only building planes for those airlines we like"

Every industry has customers, big or small, who will never be profitable for their suppliers. FR are quite possibly that customer in aviation. Getting discounted prices on frames, depressing resale values and indeed new sale values by flipping very young craft, etc, does not add up to being a guaranteed profit source.
 
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:05 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 39):
This has a lot to do with bad mouthing & taunting your provider and making life miserable for everyone involved.

I still don't get what the "bad mouthing and taunting" was... he says they're negotiating on price (like everyone does) and he'd buy dogs if they were cheaper (kinda strange but is that really a stab at Boeing?) It seems to be a mountain out of a molehill or actually, just a molehill out of a molehill... is Boeing even mad??

"We'd like to place an order, but only when the price is right."

--just like any business
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:17 am

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 12):
Never ending profits, More and more passengers carried.. They know how to get what they want. MOL might be annoying loudmouth but I find it laughable people still underestimate him. I also find it amusing how people on this site just think a manufacturer will turn its nose up at hundreds of millions in profits

Boeing won't turn up their nose at profits, MOL just has to buy at a price that makes them a profit.
 
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:21 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
Boeing is doing just fine with WN, AS, UA, etc, etc.......

So a few billion more is something they don't want?

If Boeing really shut the door on FR, it would do one of the following:
1. Force FR to trash talk Boeing over the better NEO. It doesn't matter which is better, MOL's ego wouldn't let him admit to being beaten. Airbus would sulk in a corner counting bags of money....
2. For FR to buy Bombardier, doubling the orders for the type and overnight solidifying a new competitor. Perhaps launch the CS500?
3. Actually order the C919.   

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 11):
This would be Bombardier's wet dream. 150 CSeries orders wouldn't be so bad, don't you think?

   I'm sure Bombardier and COMAC talked with FR.
They probably were nothing more than fall back offers though...

Quoting airboe (Reply 13):
Why give away a large discount and block your production line for some serious time because O'leary threatens to order the C919....

It isn't that. I double dog dare FR to order the C919. It is not going to deliver the cycles per day FR demands early on. Later? It could be a risk, but that is after it has been debugged, the supply chain has been smoothed out, etc.

Quoting q120 (Reply 21):
This is so ridiculous.

Exactly. A sale is a sale. As long as the ledger is the approved ROI in the black... let the VP sell!

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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:33 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 43):
I still don't get what the "bad mouthing and taunting" was...

The "raped" Boeing rant by MOL left a sour taste in the mouths of many. And I believe it still burns true today.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 43):
he says they're negotiating on price (like everyone does)

Negotiating, my ass. If you really think he is "negotiating", then he wouldn't be using the media as his mouthpiece. He needs to man up and talk to Boeing. Otherwise, he will lose in the long run. I don't think Boeing would want Ryanair to dictate on what prices they should pay. Ryanair is an airline, not an aircraft manufacturer.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
So a few billion more is something they don't want?

Charge Ryanair the full list price.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
If Boeing really shut the door on FR, it would do one of the following:
1. Force FR to trash talk Boeing over the better NEO. It doesn't matter which is better, MOL's ego wouldn't let him admit to being beaten. Airbus would sulk in a corner counting bags of money....
2. For FR to buy Bombardier, doubling the orders for the type and overnight solidifying a new competitor. Perhaps launch the CS500?
3. Actually order the C919.

Eh, more power to Ryanair. Let 'em, especially on the 3rd option.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
I double dog dare FR to order the C919.

   Can I join in with you on that, Lightsaber?  
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:04 am

Quoting airboe (Thread starter):
2: BCA would love a solid order for let's say 150 of the 738 to keep the lines running smooth until the MAX is up and running. And I guess they will order for 100 MAX-8 A's well - to keep Comac out of the market.

Neither A nor B are interested in selling aircraft at a loss just to keep a line moving. A moving line costs money and so the product had better earn money.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):

If I was Boeing, I'd tell Ryanair to put up and shut up or go elsewhere. I think Airbus still doesn't want anything to do with Ryanair. So, that puts Ryanair in a bind.

Yes and no. Ryanair is looking at the SSJ, too.
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:40 am

Sorry for the ignorant question, but what did Ryanair do to piss off Airbus?
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
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RE: O'Leary: We'd Buy A Dog

Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:49 am

Quoting vio (Reply 48):
Sorry for the ignorant question, but what did Ryanair do to piss off Airbus?

Airbus isn't actually pissed off, the whole thing is blown out of all proportion.

Back in 2002, when MOL was negotiating for aircraft, he used Airbus prices to get a lower price from Boeing:

http://theairlineblog.blogspot.co.nz.../buying-airplanes-ryanair-way.html

"The answer comes down to the fact that Michael O'Leary has always driven a hard bargain. He waited to order the initial batch of 737s until 2002, when Boeing was struggling after 9/11. But the order for Boeing was never a foregone conclusion; instead, he brilliantly played Airbus and Boeing off of each other, reportedly faxing the latest offer he received from Airbus over to Boeing and vice versa, in an attempt to get a lower price. Airbus offered to sell him A320s at half price, and O'Leary had apparently even shaken hands with the Airbus CEO before switching at the last minute to order from Boeing at even lower prices. O'Leary didn't mince words when recounting how he managed to get a spectacular deal from Boeing, saying: "We raped the fuckers."

Airbus simply took their lumps (they had the huge Easyjet order to console them) - they're big boys with reasonably thick skins, as the Boeing people are.

But since then, John Leahy (Airbus) has said that he would do business with Ryanair again - as long as MOL didn't expect any serious discounts.  

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-04 22:51:14]
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