azstar
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Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:30 pm

A Denver Post survey last year stated that 78% of DEN passengers rated F9 number #1 in customer service, followed by 38% for Southwest. So, why is Southwest clobbering Frontier in Denver? They pushed F9 out of the #2 spot a couple years ago.

"Frontier Airlines said Wednesday that its passenger traffic fell 8 percent during July from a year ago, following a similar decline in capacity."

Read more: Frontier Airlines reports decline in traffic, capacity in July - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...raffic-capacity-july#ixzz25XRGREvY
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuses

F9 is reducing DEN-ATL to once daily while WN is increasing capacity to 5 daily (that's a market which, I think,saw only 1 or 2 Airtran flights). WN has inaugurated DEN-SDF, DEN-DAY, DEN-CAK service, which F9 was previously dominant. Plus, WN has entered almost every market served by F9 with multiple daily flights while F9 keeps reducing their DEN service.

Why is DEN such a success for WN when the local population claims to favor F9?

[Edited 2012-09-04 14:30:50]
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:35 pm

Quoting azstar (Thread starter):
"Frontier Airlines said Wednesday that its passenger traffic fell 8 percent during July from a year ago, following a similar decline in capacity."

I could be wrong, but I would have thought the majority of that fall was because of the massive cutbacks at MKE and MCI.

Especially since the passenger decline exactly matches the capacity decline.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-04 14:37:07]
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting azstar (Thread starter):
A Denver Post survey last year stated that 78% of DEN passengers rated F9 number #1 in customer service, followed by 38% for Southwest. So, why is Southwest clobbering Frontier in Denver?

Customer service isn't everything, it is one variable. Look at Ryan Air and how its doing... I doubt they're winning any customer service awards, but they're sure successful. Not trying to compare WN to Ryan Air, just saying customer service isn't everything. WN has a larger network and a more solid brand (IMO), maybe why they're doing better
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
FL787
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:12 pm

Quoting azstar (Thread starter):
A Denver Post survey last year stated that 78% of DEN passengers rated F9 number #1 in customer service, followed by 38% for Southwest. So, why is Southwest clobbering Frontier in Denver?

Well a couple things you need to keep in mind are:
-F9 and WN connect a lot of passengers through DEN so someone flying MSP-DEN-SNA probably isn't included in the survey.
-Routes have 2 ends. Maybe a survey in AUS shows that 78% of passengers prefer WN. So on AUS-DEN, who is really preferred?
 
N809FR
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:18 pm

I think since Republic bought F9 there has been a massive decline in the local perception of the airline. I also think a lot of people are still tricked into believing WN is the cheapest in the market, which many times is not true. I personally fly Delta almost exclusively, I like their route network, and flew them for the first time after Frontier entered bankruptcy. I have yet to fly WN, and will not do so until reserved seating is the standard, but I do admire their business model and quite frankly am interested to see where they will go in the next 3-5 years.
 
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:43 pm

Quoting N809FR (Reply 4):
I think since Republic bought F9 there has been a massive decline in the local perception of the airline.

Which may be true, but also may have reversed since Frontier - very publicly - announced a "return to Denver."

Frontier now flies to more destinations - from DEN - than at any time in its history and with record load factors. Better yet, in Q2, relieved of the burden of MKE, Frontier returned to profitability.

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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:45 pm

It seems that the DEN's management as well as local Denver politicians are very pro-WN. This is probably why WN has taken much of F9's market share at DEN.
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ADent
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:46 pm

I am not sure why F9 surveyed so well.

The couple of sometime F9 fans around here stopped flying when they got rid of free bags and upped the miles for a free trip.

WN flies to more places, WN has better schedules, WN has free bags, WN has free schedule changes, WN doesn't have useless TVs that take up under seat room, WN has free inflight map (on Wi-Fi airplanes when you have your own device).

F9 has cute commercials. F9 is located on a closer in concourse. F9 has 10 min of free TV, then the screen turns into an ad.

Not sure who has the better loyalty program - both have had significant changes.

Looking at a trip more than a month out DEN-PDX the fares are the same. F9 tends to be cheaper closer in, though looking for the same trip in 10 days WN is a lot cheaper in this particular case.
 
airliner371
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:55 pm

Quote:
F9 and WN connect a lot of passengers through DEN so someone flying MSP-DEN-SNA probably isn't included in the survey.

While true, WN has the most Denver originating passengers of any airline in Denver. Even beating United.

Quote:
and will not do so until reserved seating is the standard

I feel like this is so over rated. It really is better then assigned seats when you try it but it gets bad press because people think "I don't have a seat or we won't sit together" but it really isn't like that. I respect your opinion though.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:07 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 8):
It really is better then assigned seats when you try it but it gets bad press because people think "I don't have a seat or we won't sit together" but it really isn't like that

With or without the seat assignments, you still have that "I don't have a seat" or "We won't sit together" problem either way. Trust me, I have seen it countless times on WN.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 8):
I feel like this is so over rated.

N809FR is right though, and I agree.

Quoting ADent (Reply 7):
WN doesn't have useless TVs that take up under seat room

You only have that problem if you sit in an aisle seat.

Quoting ADent (Reply 7):
F9 has 10 min of free TV, then the screen turns into an ad.

The ads are only done immediately after take-off then you get the free "preview" (flip the channel to see whats on) until the FA's are done giving Summit, Accent members and Classic Plus and Classic customers their free TV then you lose the free "preview".

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
It seems that the DEN's management as well as local Denver politicians are very pro-WN. This is probably why WN has taken much of F9's market share at DEN.

   This is no secret, and F9 knows it as well as the F9 employees.
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KBJCpilot
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:06 am

I fly out of DEN and when I have a choice I always fly F9 as long as the fare is within 15% of WN or UA. I get better service, the FA's and gate agents are friendlier, and I don't feel like I am stuck on Cattle Car Airways. I don't care if I have to pay for my IFE. And I am not stuck flying with the "Southwest demographic" where Budweiser seems to be the after shave of choice.

I may spend a little more but the customer service, clean planes, and friendly staff more than make up for it.
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N809FR
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 8):
I feel like this is so over rated. It really is better then assigned seats when you try it but it gets bad press because people think "I don't have a seat or we won't sit together" but it really isn't like that. I respect your opinion though.

My personal feeling is, I shouldn't be required to check in as soon as it opens to get my coveted window seat. I rarely travel with anyone else, and being able to reserve a window seat in the back of the cabin is always nice to not have to worry about when heading to the airport. I will say, and this is where Delta has come through for me, getting a window seat in the front of the Y cabin on a tight connection is also nice, especially when I am connecting for an international flight in a relatively short time frame.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
It seems that the DEN's management as well as local Denver politicians are very pro-WN. This is probably why WN has taken much of F9's market share at DEN.

As someone who still wishes WN hadn't come to Denver, I find this situation very infuriating. It isn't as if Denver didn't have sufficient capacity prior to WN entering the market.

Frontier has long been given such a hard time by DEN airport management, I don't know who exactly has an axe to grind but it shouldn't be so apparent.
 
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:25 am

It's actually very simple. Frontier's capacity at Denver is flat, and they pack the planes to the gills. As Southwest continues to add capacity at Denver, Frontier's comparative share falls.

Frontier's overall capacity is decreasing, and in the current year-over-year period it's primarily MKE/MCI being pulled back and DEN being flat. In the near-medium future, a fairly modest reduction in total fleet capacity will mean total DEN capacity will likely slip a bit. And again, with Frontieralready packing planes pretty reliably, there's no room for Denver traffic to increase.

Frontier's Denver share of total DIA traffic doesn't really say a thing about Denver supporting or not supporting Frontier. Frontier excels at filling planes, and even if Denver travelers are avoiding Frontier (which I highly doubt) Frontier would still fill 90%+ of their Denver seats by deeper discounts and selling connections.

Frontier simply doesn't have the capacity to grow Denver at this point, and as such their comparative share will slip. And I don't expect any great efforts at this point to expand the fleet to grow Denver. That's because given the weak Denver fare environment, Frontier can't make money trying to be the higher-frequency airline targeting business travelers they once were. It's questionable if United and Southwest are reliably making money offering higher-frequency service targeting business travelers in Denver, but Frontier doesn't have the pockets to keep losing money in that fight. That's why we are seeing more cities but lower frequency, with packed seats but fairly tepid yields, on aircraft with low CASM to turn a profit.
 
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:34 am

Quoting azstar (Thread starter):
A Denver Post survey last year stated that 78% of DEN passengers rated F9 number #1 in customer service, followed by 38% for Southwest.

I don't understand this number. shouldn't these add to 100%?
 
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:41 am

Quoting azstar (Thread starter):
Frontier Airlines said Wednesday that its passenger traffic fell 8 percent during July from a year ago, following a similar decline in capacity."
Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
I could be wrong, but I would have thought the majority of that fall was because of the massive cutbacks at MKE and MCI.

I would think 8% across all of F9 stations is manageable. If it was 8% at DEN alone I'd be a little more concerned. I would think MKE alone accounts for most of it.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
This is probably why WN has taken much of F9's market share at DEN.

I would guess it's more about frequency of flights. As a business traveler and consumer, where the fares are comparable I tend to pick a carrier with multiple frequencies. On leisure not so much. Keep in mind some F9 flights are LTD (less than daily) Two free checked pieces of luggage also plays into my decision process. WN is generally thought of as a breath of fresh air in this day of nickel and diming.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
NWADTWE16
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:42 am

F9 is a great airline and obviously WN is in the business of 'Romneyism' at this time. They came in and destroyed FL under the propaganda they were creating a great 'new merged carrier' woohoo! Not so true is it..and i believe they have been out to destroy F9 in their own home when WN had no plans prior to hub there. They are willing, and can afford to bleed money until F9 is gone. The public should support F9 and recognize this is an attack. The more airlines we have the better and especially ones that provide a great product at great prices like F9. Ive NEVER understood why anyone likes WN anyway..seriously its the greyhound of the skies...i dont enjoy airplane bingo from cheezy FA's as entertainment in-flight and they also have planes flying around with a 'lounge' LOL in front..in other words seats facing back to everyone else in the plane..boy that must be fun..Long live F9 and (cheers to more profits)..WN should be ashamed and needs a 'real' computer system to be considered with the others in my book..flame away WN luvrs!!
 
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:49 am

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 15):

The lounges went away over 10 years ago so you should probably refrain from airing an opinion regarding an airline when it's obvious you haven't been on it.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
JONC777
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:50 am

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 15):

Gee you aren't biased at all are ya? The market is what it is. . .its just a business. . .
 
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:58 am

Deregulation at work....capitalism at its finest.
 
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:00 am

Quoting tharanga (Reply 13):
I don't understand this number. shouldn't these add to 100%?

Fuzzy math or one large curve. Trying to understand the numbers in aviation tends to make ones brain hurt.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
airliner371
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:16 am

Quote:
Romneyism

I don't think this is appropriate. This entire website is airlines not your political opinion.

Quote:
Ive NEVER understood why anyone likes WN anyway

The same can be said about F9. Nothing makes F9 different. B6, VX, WN are all different. F9 is just an airline. The quote on the side of that plane is on the wrong airline. You may not be able to find out why anyone likes WN but more people in Denver choose WN then F9... That truly says alot.
 
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:19 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
It seems that the DEN's management as well as local Denver politicians are very pro-WN.
Quoting N809FR (Reply 11):
As someone who still wishes WN hadn't come to Denver, I find this situation very infuriating. It isn't as if Denver didn't have sufficient capacity prior to WN entering the market.

Frontier has long been given such a hard time by DEN airport management, I don't know who exactly has an axe to grind but it shouldn't be so apparent.

Since F9 was a local DEN carrier and WN had abandoned the DEN market years ago, the issue should be why did DEN management and local media turn against "their own" by inviting in and cozying up to WN. I don't think any carrier WN or otherwise would turn down the overtures because DEN already had a local carrier that the public loved.
Is this just another case of the authorities not representing the wishes / desires of the masses? I can understand the press as the "third estate" is always about their agenda and profits, but elected officials...........

WN as mentioned is continuing to grow DEN, its larger network means that in time connections alone could keep the service viable. Majority of DEN pax may still prefer and use F9 but unless WN decides to abandon a second time, its network size can sustain them in the market, now if F9 was continuing to grow a different situation would present.
 
airliner371
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:25 am

Quote:
Majority of DEN pax may still prefer and use F9
WN actually flies the most Denver originating pax, more then any other airline in Denver, even beating United. Now whether the majority prefer WN is to be seen but the majority fly WN.

[Edited 2012-09-04 19:26:04]
 
NWADTWE16
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:26 am

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 20):
I don't think this is appropriate. This entire website is airlines not your political opinion.

Fair enough
 
NWADTWE16
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:31 am

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 20):
Nothing makes F9 different

This is just absolutely not true, the in-seat AVOD, assigned seating, use of a major computer system (just like every other airline), these are three to name a few..have you ever had your WN flight cancel and you ask about being transfered to another carrier, even in the event of maintenance..how hard did they laugh?
 
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:41 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
Customer service isn't everything, it is one variable. Look at Ryan Air and how its doing... I doubt they're winning any customer service awards, but they're sure successful. Not trying to compare WN to Ryan Air, just saying customer service isn't everything.

   Or here in the states, compare NK's revenues with their perception among the public.

Quoting N809FR (Reply 4):
I think since Republic bought F9 there has been a massive decline in the local perception of the airline. I also think a lot of people are still tricked into believing WN is the cheapest in the market, which many times is not true.

My perception of F9 has definitely changed following the Republic buyout.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
It seems that the DEN's management as well as local Denver politicians are very pro-WN. This is probably why WN has taken much of F9's market share at DEN.

Considering that F9 is on shaky ground, it makes sense to back the stronger carrier.

Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 10):
And I am not stuck flying with the "Southwest demographic" where Budweiser seems to be the after shave of choice.

...have you ever even flown Southwest? This has to be the most ignorant thing I've read here all year.
 
usflyguy
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:35 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 21):

May have something to do with the fact hat the "hometown" carrier was bout and it's headquarters we're moved to IND and its MX was mocked to MKE. They abandoned DEN so DEN turned on them.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 24):
(just like every other airline)

You must not understand the definition of "different".
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
LV
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:40 am

I think F9 is an airline in flux and this is reflecting some of that. It is trying to transition from being a traditional hub and spoke carrier to something resembling what G4 does in p2p routes. I think that does affect how the airline is perceived in DEN. I think you will see F9 continue to develop a focus city at MCO flying to secondary markets... TTN, GSO and COU are just a start. I think you will see it develop select p2p routes out of AZA and LAS.... taking G4 on at it's own game. I think LAS - PUB was just the start of that. I said I believe G4 pulling out of FNL may have something to do with F9.

That being said, I think there is a place in the "new" F9 for a smaller, leaner and less frequency oriented DEN hub. The boys in IND pulling the strings at Republic HQ know F9 doesn't have the resources to take on WN and UA on high frequency, business oriented major market routes. So I think what you will see DEN morph into is a hybrid hub of sorts. I think you will see F9 use it's 319's 3-4 times a week into markets like GFK, SUX, RAP, COU and fly to DEN to connect to flights going to the bigger markets people from the smaller rocky mountain and great plains markets want to go.... such as SAN, SEA, LAX, LAS and even AZA or PHX. Also, I think there will be an emphasis to Mexico when possible, using vacation sellers to sell packages in the smaller markets to fill the planes out of the small markets and then transfer them to flights to the final destinations through DEN.

Of course, I am not an expert, or an armchair CEO, this is just what I think the higher ups are imagining with the way I see F9 changing.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:13 am

Quoting LV (Reply 27):
The boys in IND pulling the strings at Republic HQ know F9 doesn't have the resources to take on WN and UA on high frequency, business oriented major market routes.

I agree with much of what you say, except "the boys in IND" aren't in IND anymore. All of the executive positions are back in DEN, as are all but one of the FAR 119 positions, and he is moving imminently - Frontier is being run from DEN.

And yes, it is a deliberate decision transition the airline to something like the model you describe, resulting in a $50 million turnaround (to profit) in Q2.

Although I don't know how strongly LAS will figure in the model - maybe.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-04 21:15:12]
aeternum nauta
 
airlinewatcher1
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:33 am

Honestly, both Frontier and Southwest are great carriers. I fly on both of them. There are things that I prefer about both airlines, but usually the flights are relatively short so the difference is minuscule. When I take F9, I try and do carry-on in order to avoid the fee to check a bag. And almost always the gate agent has offered to check the bags for free at the gate in order to expedite the boarding process. So you might want to keep that in mind if purchasing a Classic or Classic Plus ticket. It probably isn't worth the extra money.

At any rate, Denver is in an enviable position to have them, not to mention United. And I think Denver may actually be capable of supporting all three, right-sized. All three concourses at DIA are pretty much being used at or over their capacity, except for B. There are only so many places left for F9 and WN to expand to, and gate space is limited without expanding either A or C. And B is United's turf, so they won't be using any of those gates unless United closes up shop, which I don't see them doing any time soon.
 
onaclearday
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:34 am

I suspect that the powers that be in Denver and at DIA are making things as comfortable as legally possible for WN so that the much vaunted airline will favor DIA over other Front Range airports--Colorado Springs not least among them--for as long as possible. If WN had gone to COS rather than DIA when it re-entered the Colorado market, the impact on DIA would have been significant. F9 no doubt would have fared better than it has with the direct competition it has since faced, but at least the DIA numbers were saved and bolstered.
 
point2point
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:20 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
I could be wrong, but I would have thought the majority of that fall was because of the massive cutbacks at MKE and MCI.

WIth the massive cuts at both MKE and MCI, and there being only about an 8% reduction in F9 operations overall, I think that in the meantime, F9 actually expanded into a few new destinations to/from DEN, and 'right-sized' frequencies to/from DEN to the rest of the network.

Quoting FL787 (Reply 3):
-F9 and WN connect a lot of passengers through DEN...

From 2011 stats, DEN O&D was 54.6% (55%-45% split). Of course it would be better to be 60% and higher, but I believe that so long as the rate is over 50%, yields will be favorable here for the big 3 at DEN of UA, WN and F9, as well as all of the other carriers serving DEN.

Quoting N809FR (Reply 11):
Frontier has long been given such a hard time by DEN airport management, I don't know who exactly has an axe to grind but it shouldn't be so apparent.

I think the DEN airport management has somewhat of a difficult job (although one that is probably quite envied by airport managements around the country) in that it has to keep a balance of 3 majors operating successfully there. When one day it seems UA is the pet child, the next day it's WN, and the third day it's F9. So whatever it is that's being done, it does seem to be working at keeping DEN with competition levels only dreamed about at other airports. And do we really know what goes on behind those closed doors?

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 15):
F9 is a great airline

This is correct......

Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 29):
Honestly, both Frontier and Southwest are great carriers.

This is also correct....

Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 29):
All three concourses at DIA are pretty much being used at or over their capacity, except for B.

As B is already fully build out I do believe, A and C still have a good amount of room for relatively inexpensive and easily done gate additions if need be.

Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 29):
And I think Denver may actually be capable of supporting all three, right-sized.

My personal theory is that if F9 continues to be profitable, then DEN will continue (all other things being equal....) to be host to these 3 major hubbers...... and support all of its remaining carriers as well......

In closing here, DEN and community planners envision 62M pax by the year 2020. Quite doable, since this is only about a 1%-2% each and every year increase. And with that, somebody's gotta be moving all of those bodies.....


 



[Edited 2012-09-05 01:39:04]
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:30 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 31):
When one day it seems UA is the pet child, the next day it's WN, and the third day it's F9.

I don't recall a day when Frontier was the "favored child" of DIA. Just out of interest, did you have a particular day in mind?

mariner
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point2point
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:32 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 32):
I don't recall a day when Frontier was the "favored child" of DIA. Just out of interest, did you have a particular day in mind?

You overlooked this part, my friend.....

Quoting point2point (Reply 31):
And do we really know what goes on behind those closed doors?

 
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:34 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 33):
ou overlooked this part, my friend.....

Quoting point2point (Reply 31):
And do we really know what goes on behind those closed doors?

Well, not really, because - at least in some cases - we do know what happens behind closed doors.

The notorious business of Frontier and the C gates for example.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
LV
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:34 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 28):
Although I don't know how strongly LAS will figure in the model - maybe

Okay, so part of that is me being a huge LAS cheerleader. After all, my paycheck depends on a steady stream of tourists looking for a good time. That being said, I was surprised F9 started LAS- PUB and I don't think it will be the last one. I think there are three to four other routes F9 might try out of LAS.... FNL being the first one that comes to mind with the G4 pull out.

I am curious to see what F9 does with AZA.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:43 am

Quoting LV (Reply 35):
That being said, I was surprised F9 started LAS- PUB and I don't think it will be the last one.

It surprises me, too, because I don't recall Frontier ever serving PUB-LAS or announced plans to do so.

Perhaps you mean DRO-LAS, which has since been dropped?

But I agree, FNL-LAS might be interesting.

mariner
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airliner371
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:24 am

Quote:
the in-seat AVOD, assigned seating, use of a major computer system (just like every other airline)

But there are airlines with this as well. If I want AVOD I could choose DL, assigned seating any other carrier and multiple airlines have good res systems. My point was F9 has no really special aspect except for there livery which you can see flying another airline.

Quote:
As B is already fully build out I do believe, A and C still have a good amount of room for relatively inexpensive and easily done gate additions if need be.

They are in planning the process of expanding C for WN.
 
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cosyr
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:11 pm

Quoting azstar (Thread starter):
Why is DEN such a success for WN when the local population claims to favor F9?

As a Denver local, I can say a lot has changed in the last year. Since the 90's United was terrible and many locals were thrilled at any opportunity to fly F9 over UA, Driving UA into that whole Ted fiasco. Now with the modest improvements prior to merger, and the major improvements since joining with CO, UA is far above where they were in the late 90's. A lot of people are being swayed by the rough period they have had since March, but most of the improvements to UA as a result of the merger happened leading up to customer day one.

During that same time period, F9 decided to become an ULCC, gave extra legroom to some, by cutting legroom to others. They had some excellent financial progress in bankruptcy only to be stripped of it by Republic's cost cutting measures, mostly around staff. My parents stuck with them as far as they could, but after this summer, they claim they will never fly F9 again. We moved to DEN a year before new F9 started, and we have seen the rise, and will see the end of Frontier.

Locals used to be more loyal to Frontier than any other hometown airline in the US, and it is not that Southwest got better, Frontier has just proven that they do not deserve that loyalty.
 
jporterfi
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 24):
.have you ever had your WN flight cancel and you ask about being transfered to another carrier, even in the event of maintenance..

Has this worked for you when you were flying F9? I was under the impression that all airlines stopped doing this a long time ago, at the advent of e-tickets.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:46 pm

"It seems that the DEN's management as well as local Denver politicians are very pro-WN. This is probably why WN has taken much of F9's market share at DEN."

I don't know if this is true or not, but smart move on their part to play both sides.

You want to support the hometown airline, but they have been on the ropes for a long time. Bringing in a huge, established airline to fill up gates in case F9 goes away is a prudent thing to do.
 
CarsAir04
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:54 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 40):
"It seems that the DEN's management as well as local Denver politicians are very pro-WN. This is probably why WN has taken much of F9's market share at DEN."

I don't know if this is true or not, but smart move on their part to play both sides.

You want to support the hometown airline, but they have been on the ropes for a long time. Bringing in a huge, established airline to fill up gates in case F9 goes away is a prudent thing to do.

But its just not WN. UA gets concessions all the time from Denver and DIA. When UA filed BK way back when. Denver forgave all sorts of rent and charges. Plus the baggage system. Then just several months ago Denver was very nice in letting UA give up some unused space.

Long ago, the then Mayor Hickenlooper welcomed the new hometown airline of WN to Denver and it hasn't stopped since.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:56 pm

One thing you armchair CEO's seem to forget is that F9 only HAS 69 airplanes while WN has 700. UA can compete with WN but for what?? those who are bound to fly WN are ALWAYS going to flt WN, Nobody is going to Run F9 or UA out of Denver so in that there IS a choice. It can't make that much of a difference to F9 if their airplanes are packed because you can't sell anymore seats than you've got ... is WN flying 90% loads out of Denver?? UA has been in the upper 80% range all summer. so unless UA and F9 put more and bigger airplanes in Denver then WN is going to get what they Get and God Bless them.. I can tell you truly that you're NOT going to see any Fare wars in the near future. nor will you see any large influx of planes, UA is now shifting larger 737's into Denver and that might help some but F9 can't do that. and it really doesn't matter what WN does. Pretty soon it's all going to be about amenities and Customer Service because the UA S-co 737's Have the live TV. And if people like that ?? well then the passengers will be there. If they don't then OH Well !!
 
azstar
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 39):
Has this worked for you when you were flying F9? I was under the impression that all airlines stopped doing this a long time ago, at the advent of e-tickets.



A few airlines don't have ticket agreements with each other. Spirit, Southwest, Jetblue are a few that don't, so if you're delayed or cancelled you have no options on other airlines. Southwest, at least, has a real network and they can generally reroute you on one of their alternate flights.

With Frontier's limited operations, if you get delayed or cancelled, they rarely have other options such as later flights or connections via an alternate hub, they will route you on some other carriers network, normally UA. It has happened to me numerous times. In that respect, I believe, they are the only LCC who does that.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:10 pm

Since we're at the topic of DEN, how well (or not well) is UA holding up against this 3-way bloodbath ? Opening up DEN-NRT is definitely a positive development.
 
PlaneAdmirer
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting cosyr (Reply 38):
During that same time period, F9 decided to become an ULCC, gave extra legroom to some, by cutting legroom to others. They had some excellent financial progress in bankruptcy only to be stripped of it by Republic's cost cutting measures, mostly around staff. My parents stuck with them as far as they could, but after this summer, they claim they will never fly F9 again.

You know I fly them once a month or every other month and I haven't noticed a change. I find the flight crews to be helpful, the customer service folks to be helpful, and yes, even nice. For me the change is that they are less of a network carrier so sometimes I only fly them in one direction rather than the roundtrip because because the timing doesn't work otherwise and I don't want to stay another night in a hotel and rent a car for another day just to fly F9 in both directions. I don't really care about TV one way or the other, but it's nice sometimes. It's not a motivator. On flights over 2.5 to 3.0 hours I don't mind paying for the stretch.

Considering what it takes to run an airline, I think they do a great job against fierce competitors.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:50 pm

[

Quoting tharanga (Reply 13):
I don't understand this number. shouldn't these add to 100%?

It is possible that another airline received votes also,making up the 100%I
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:54 pm

"Spirit, Southwest, Jetblue are a few that don't, so if you're delayed or cancelled you have no options on other airlines. Southwest, at least, has a real network and they can generally reroute you on one of their alternate flights."

B6 absolutely does. That was what the big move to Sabre a few years ago was all about.
 
azstar
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 47):
B6 absolutely does.

Only with AA, I believe.
 
EWRandMDW
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RE: Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver

Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting azstar (Thread starter):
A Denver Post survey last year stated that 78% of DEN passengers rated F9 number #1 in customer service, followed by 38% for Southwest. So, why is Southwest clobbering Frontier in Denver? They pushed F9 out of the #2 spot a couple years ago.
Quoting bobnwa (Reply 46):
Quoting tharanga (Reply 13):
I don't understand this number. shouldn't these add to 100%?

It is possible that another airline received votes also,making up the 100%I

Trouble is that 78% (FL) + 38% (WN) = 116% which is mathematically impossible (you can't have more than everything!). Throw in a 3rd airline, and it brings back nightmares of the 1960s and 70s New Math that was taught in public schools!