Gonzalo
Topic Author
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:57 am

NTSB recommend to FAA the implementation of external cameras that help pilots to avoid ground collisions with the wingtips of their planes. This is for all aircraft considered "Heavy", from 757 to A380. ( BTW, long time without a thread discussing if the 757 deserves the "Heavy" title   ).

This recommendation follows three ground collision accidents in which large aircraft collided with another aircraft while taxiing, in a short period of time.

Do you see any future to this recommendation ??


http://atwonline.com/international-a...und-collision-aids-large-aircraft-

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
LLA001
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 7:36 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:53 am

It would be nice if they showed these new views at the IFE of the passengers    
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:34 pm

I, myself strongly believe in the pilots looking out the cockpit windows and staying on the TWCL while taxiing, instead of heads down doing checklists or something else. Putting TV cameras on the wingtips and a display in the cockpit just puts their eyes back inside the airplane, this time watching a TV monitor.
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:52 pm

Has it ever been considered to use echo devices to warn of a nearby obstacle of the wing tips. These help a lots in cars, cost almost nothing, have no practically no weight.
 
26point2
Posts: 814
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:59 pm

@TopBoom.

Often the wingtips on these large jets cannot be seen from the cockpit windows. Instead, how about an optical device on the cockpit side window that can illustrate the wingtip relative position to objects as they are approached. Sort of like a HUD but not really.

Also, the OP commented about the 757 and it's "heavy" designation. I believe this is only in reference to the wake turblence category the 757 falls under requiring greater separation from others. The actual weight of the 757 does not qualify it as a heavy in the traditional sense. At least one accident, the In-n-Out biz jet at KSNA,, was caused by 757 wake turbulence. There might be others.
 
tp1040
Posts: 291
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:30 pm

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 3):
Has it ever been considered to use echo devices to warn of a nearby obstacle of the wing tips. These help a lots in cars, cost almost nothing, have no practically no weight.

I would agree, sort of like a ground TCAS. But if would be nice to have an added benefit to have wing tip cameras if there was a warning.
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 3644
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:11 pm

would cameras provide enough warning to stop or turn.. probably will only provide clear pictures of incidents for investigators.
 
copter808
Posts: 1383
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
I, myself strongly believe in the pilots looking out the cockpit windows and staying on the TWCL while taxiing, instead of heads down doing checklists or something else. Putting TV cameras on the wingtips and a display in the cockpit just puts their eyes back inside the airplane, this time watching a TV monitor.

My thoughts exactly! Besides, who is going to pay for this? Not the NTSB!!

As far as I know, there has never been a fatality involved with the collision of 2 aircraft on the ramp. These collisions are strictly a financial loss and whether or not to install cameras should be at the discretion of the operator.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:07 pm

TCAS on ground mode type of mechanism would be great.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Gonzalo
Topic Author
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
I, myself strongly believe in the pilots looking out the cockpit windows and staying on the TWCL while taxiing, instead of heads down doing checklists or something else.
Quoting copter808 (Reply 7):
My thoughts exactly! Besides, who is going to pay for this? Not the NTSB!!

The problem is ( from the article ) :

According to the NTSB, on large aircraft—such as the Boeing 747, 757, 767 and 777; the Airbus A380; and the McDonnell Douglas MD-10 and MD-11—the pilot cannot see the wingtips from the cockpit “unless the pilot opens the cockpit window and extends his or her head out of the window, which is often impractical.”

Regarding the cost, I think that a couple of small cameras, a few wires and a small screen are not so expensive compared with an A380 cancelling the flight, being on the ground for two days to change a wingtip, and 450+ pax requesting meals, hotel rooms and re-bookings....I think the recommendation from the NTSB has a good support in the three recent incidents whit planes damaged, airport traffic impact, and an overall safety deterioration during ground operations.

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5563
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting copter808 (Reply 7):
As far as I know, there has never been a fatality involved with the collision of 2 aircraft on the ramp. These collisions are strictly a financial loss and whether or not to install cameras should be at the discretion of the operator.

So, your view is that only if someone is killed should airlines/ aircraft manufacturers be required to implement some type of additional safety procedure/ process? If not, please let use know.

I haven't seen video of the other incidents, but the way the RJ is tossed around in the A380 incident clearly shows the potential for a disaster. What is going to happen eventually is two aircraft with 500+ people aboard with a huge fire right in an area where it could invove other aircraft and the terminal. Along with quite a few ground workers/ ramp rats - caught in the middle.

There is a procedure that could be implemented which would avoid the cost of cameras. Though tripling taxi times by requiring wing walkers at all times heavies are moving on taxiways would probably be more expensive.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19761
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
I, myself strongly believe in the pilots looking out the cockpit windows and staying on the TWCL while taxiing, instead of heads down doing checklists or something else. Putting TV cameras on the wingtips and a display in the cockpit just puts their eyes back inside the airplane, this time watching a TV monitor.

A TV monitor will never be a fix for poor airmanship. However, the distances involved when piloting an A380 are simply too big for a human brain to process well based on vision alone. That's why wing walkers are used during pushback. The A380 had multiple tipstrikes during its first several months in service.

Quoting copter808 (Reply 7):
As far as I know, there has never been a fatality involved with the collision of 2 aircraft on the ramp. These collisions are strictly a financial loss and whether or not to install cameras should be at the discretion of the operator.

A fatality has never occurred because of good fortune. Did you watch the video of the AF A380 hitting the CR7? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSUL46Jdudw

Look at how violent that is. Fortunately, everyone aboard was buckled in. Fortunately, nothing heavy flew out of the overhead bins (which held) and land on anyone's head. Fortunately, the wing didn't hit the ground and rupture a tank.

Remember this one?

That could have ended a lot worse, too. Again, good fortune.

The point is that these events are both very costly and very dangerous. It's a matter of time before it's two VLA's and one or both of them ruptures a fuel tank and then there's a spark...

The A380 already has a camera mounted in the tailfin. It would be a trivial engineering problem to either install cameras in the tailfin that can see each wingtip OR mount cameras in the wingtips. If every A380 has this system installed and it prevents even ONE collision, it will probably pay for itself.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
ChiGB1973
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:39 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 4):

At least one accident, the In-n-Out biz jet at KSNA,, was caused by 757 wake turbulence. There might be others.
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...211X13867&ntsbno=LAX94FA073&akey=1

Sorry for the diversion, but I had to look it up and know others were curious.

The cameras will add additional unnecessary workload during the busy taxi/take-off time. I agree the alert system similar to what's put on many new cars today would be a better option. I know there are speed restrictions, but it seems the AF A-380 was taxiing along at a good clip when it struck the CRJ. Could have been my perception from the video? Slower taxi in the ramp/terminal area could be the most simple option, then open it on up once out of the more congested areas. Maybe this exists, just a thought. In this case, the pilots did not see the CRJ due to lights flashing, etc, however in many accident reports, the pilots admittedly questioned the proximity, however kept on taxiing. If there's a question, STOP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XvJMk5CGds

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...ef.aspx?ev_id=20110412X23201&key=1

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45363621&opt=0

M
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19761
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 12):
The cameras will add additional unnecessary workload during the busy taxi/take-off time.

They do not need to. Having the imagery available does not necessarily add workload. It's like adding an extra cockpit window.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5563
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 12):
but it seems the AF A-380 was taxiing along at a good clip when it struck the CRJ.

While it was moving along, my memory from the threads at the time is that the A380 was traveling well under what other aircraft taxi on that route. The A380 stopped very quickly, before its tail clears the intersection where the colision occured.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk8yeyMVkFk

I'm sure the movement of the CRJ makes the speed seem higher. But that movement is more due to the weight difference between the two aircraft than speed.

After all at MTOW the A-380 outweighs the CRJ-700 better than 16 to 1. So in this case the A-380 probably had a 20-1 weight advantage over the CRJ.
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:34 am

As well with cameras as with echo systems I would estimate the costs to be a few thousand $ max, so easily the accidents we saw, if half of them could have been avoided, cost more than to equip at least all new planes with such a system.
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 15):
As well with cameras as with echo systems I would estimate the costs to be a few thousand $ max

Definitely not. What with certification and installation costs and all, you're probably looking at at least $20,000 per airplane, especially if you're going to talk about sensors and an alert system and not just a camera. That's not to say it shouldn't be done, but we do need to realize that there are some costs involved.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:38 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 4):
@TopBoom.

Often the wingtips on these large jets cannot be seen from the cockpit windows. Instead, how about an optical device on the cockpit side window that can illustrate the wingtip relative position to objects as they are approached. Sort of like a HUD but not really.
Quoting copter808 (Reply 7):
My thoughts exactly! Besides, who is going to pay for this? Not the NTSB!!

Taxiway centerlines at all US commerical airports (I am sure at all global commerical airports, too) are surveyed to assure proper wingtip clearances for the largest airplane design group that will use that taxiway. If something bigger needs to use it, then there are restritions put in place for other airplanes and/or objects. If all airplanes always stayed on the TWCL, and always parked were they are designated to park, there shouldn't be a problem.

However, when an airplane turns onto an adjacent taxiway, and does not stay on the C/L, there could be a problem.
 
alphaomega
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:26 pm

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:02 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 17):
Taxiway centerlines at all US commerical airports (I am sure at all global commerical airports, too) are surveyed to assure proper wingtip clearances for the largest airplane design group that will use that taxiway. If something bigger needs to use it, then there are restritions put in place for other airplanes and/or objects. If all airplanes always stayed on the TWCL, and always parked were they are designated to park, there shouldn't be a problem.

However, when an airplane turns onto an adjacent taxiway, and does not stay on the C/L, there could be a problem.

In the most recent issues where an Eva 74F hit in ORD and the LH A333 hit in IAD, both aircraft were actually on the centerline. The issue was the RJ sticking out into the taxiway.

Interesting that the NTSB didn't include the A330/340 in their list of aircraft...
 
AviRaider
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:07 pm

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:33 pm

If moderatly priced cars can have reverse sensors there is no reason aircraft wingtips could not have them. No need for cameras. If something gets dangerously close to the wingtip, the sensor goes off in the cockpit and pilots then investigate it, no need to over-complicate it.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5563
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:21 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 17):
Taxiway centerlines at all US commerical airports (I am sure at all global commerical airports, too) are surveyed to assure proper wingtip clearances for the largest airplane design group that will use that taxiway.

The AF A-380 was on the taxiway centerline. The CRJ-700 was stopped at a legal stop point. Both surveyed and checked. There was a 16 foot overlap between the length of the CRJ and the A-380 wingtip.

Obviously someone messed up - however, it is also becoming very clear that the practice of airlines controlling ramp areas increases the possibility of conflicts.

Conflicts which the control tower is often unable to see.
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:02 pm

Neither the sensors nor the cameras need cables as example, they all could transmit with RF - they switch off as soon as you are on the runway.
 
tp1040
Posts: 291
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:30 pm

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:03 pm

A lot of cars have cheap collision avoidance systems. There are many types and technologies. Some systems look forward at night, some rearward when backing, others monitor the "blind spots" for changing lanes. In all of these cases, most of the systems are cheap to manufacture and use. They can be included by the manufacturer or purchased independently.

Also, they only alert you when there is a problem, then you you use other means to determine the problem (like video when backing). You are not constantly relying on and looking at the system.

Surely, the cost has come down to where they could be installed for a "relatively" low cost. Of course, relative in airplane terms, usually mean a whole lot more than the consumer version.
 
FI642
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:48 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:17 pm

A simpler easier less complex fix: Stay on the line! After all, that's what it is painted there for.
More weight, More expense, more regulation, more distraction is not a good thing!
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5563
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:16 pm

But in all three of the collisions the moving aircraft was on the taxi centerline. So staying on the line isn't the answer.
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting FI642 (Reply 23):
A simpler easier less complex fix: Stay on the line!

Isn't enough to avoid all accidents. Enough examples given in this thread.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting FI642 (Reply 23):
A simpler easier less complex fix: Stay on the line!

Do people bother reading previous replies anymore?

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 20):
The AF A-380 was on the taxiway centerline. The CRJ-700 was stopped at a legal stop point.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 19):
If moderatly priced cars can have reverse sensors there is no reason aircraft wingtips could not have them.

No technical reason, sure. But technology on cars doesn't have to go through the same certification process that technology on airplanes does. That's why it costs so much more to put the same thing on an airplane.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
copter808
Posts: 1383
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 9):
Regarding the cost, I think that a couple of small cameras, a few wires and a small screen are not so expensive compared with an A380 cancelling the flight, being on the ground for two days to change a wingtip, and 450+ pax requesting meals, hotel rooms and re-bookings....I think the recommendation from the NTSB has a good support in the three recent incidents whit planes damaged, airport traffic impact, and an overall safety deterioration during ground operations.

Damage repair and other expenses, although considerable, would likely be far less than certifying and equipping the thousands of aircraft out there. Granted, they only mentioned "heavy" aircraft, but if they include a 767, then why not a 738 or 739? Even if ALL aircraft are equipped with cameras, there is no guarantee these collisions will not continue. A better and more cost effective solution might be additional training and better CRM. That will work for everything from the A380 through Cessna 150!

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 10):

So, your view is that only if someone is killed should airlines/ aircraft manufacturers be required to implement some type of additional safety procedure/ process? If not, please let use know.

No, not at all. But the entire safety process is "risk management." We cannot completely eliminate risk, but we can manage it to a point where losses are unlikely. Would additional equipment make the operation safer? Or, would it cause distractions that might make the operation actually more hazardous? We don't know at this point. Better awareness and CRM might be a much better option.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 10):
I haven't seen video of the other incidents, but the way the RJ is tossed around in the A380 incident clearly shows the potential for a disaster. What is going to happen eventually is two aircraft with 500+ people aboard with a huge fire right in an area where it could invove other aircraft and the terminal. Along with quite a few ground workers/ ramp rats - caught in the middle.

Although there is no guarantee that two aircraft might not "collide and go boom!" is is rather unlikely and likely would not be prevented by the cameras. These collisions generally occur between edges of the aircraft--wings, tails, and possibly the nose or tail-cone. This is not usually where fuel is carried, although some aircraft may have fuel in the horizontal stabilizer.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 10):
There is a procedure that could be implemented which would avoid the cost of cameras. Though tripling taxi times by requiring wing walkers at all times heavies are moving on taxiways would probably be more expensive.

This would not need to slow taxi speeds, but it would be expensive and probably far more hazardous in the long run!

Can we make aircraft safer? Certainly. But we can also spend so much "making them safe" that we could never afford to fly them. I seriously doubt that the carriers would fail to initiate the cameras themselves if they thought the damage was costing more than installing the equipment in the entire fleet!
 
spiritair97
Posts: 1191
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:28 pm

RE: Cameras On Heavies To Avoid Ground Collisions?

Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:30 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 4):
Also, the OP commented about the 757 and it's "heavy" designation. I believe this is only in reference to the wake turblence category the 757 falls under requiring greater separation from others.

In addition, the 757-300 is technically a heavy because it's takeoff weight exceeds 255,000 lbs.

Who is online